The fair catch, that wasn't.

[Rocbillsfan1]

4 minutes ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

My opinion is that it should have been a touchback but by the letter of the rule it’s a live ball. But once you make the td call, you can’t reverse it. 

Duh that’s what we are saying 

[4merper4mer]

4 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I‘m not sweating that call one way or the other, mostly because it’s more evidence that the nfl officiating crews could $&#@ up a wet dream.  The on-field official made the call, correctly by the rule it would seem.  There is no doubt of the intent of the returner, but when 4 or 5 calls (or calls not made at all) go against  you in the final 15-20 minutes of the game, it’s pretty natural to think “Oh, so now we’re calling it based on the intentions of the player v the rule.”. besides, intent rarely seems to matter to the officiating crew. 

 

 

The Georgetown guy didn't mean to pass the ball to the UNC guy.  Everybody knows that.

[Bing Bong]

I'm triggered by people even complaining about this. Happened all regular season!

[pennstate10]

Lets look at the play from this viewpoint.

Its my opinion that every ST coordinator in the NFL is telling his KO returners to MAKE THE F SURE you either take a knee or signal fair catch.  Anyone disagree?

 

Any why would they be doing that, if its OK to just act like youre giving yourself up?

 

Because everyone knows Houston dodged a bullet here, without penalty.

1 minute ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

I'm triggered by people even complaining about this. Happened all regular season!

Nope.

Not even once.

Show me a play, or report where a TD was signaled and reversed after a guy tossed the live ball to an official.

[Bing Bong]

3 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

Nope.

Not even once.

Show me a play, or report where a TD was signaled and reversed after a guy tossed the live ball to an official.

Because the TD is never signalled. So it's not in the highlight reels sorry but no look it up yourself if you want to see it I see it all the time

Edited January 5, 2020 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[Richmond_Bills]

1 minute ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Because the TD is never signalled. So it's not in the highlight reels sorry but look it up yourself if you want to see it I see it all the time

The Ref did signal TD.

[Rocbillsfan1]

4 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Because the TD is never signalled. So it's not in the highlight reels sorry but no look it up yourself if you want to see it I see it all the time

Dude you must be on what Richie incognito is on. 

[Richmond_Bills]

[BillsfaninSB]

A super bowl caliber officiating team thought it was a TD.  It should have been a TD.  The kickoff team knew right away the guy messed up. 

[BringBackFlutie]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

Because he clearly gave himself up and that would have been the most horrendous call in the history of the sport, just my opinion though.

So you like, "it just was," over rules?  Meh

  Not me.

[PetermansRedemption]

The head official refuses to take the ball and then calls it a TD. How in the world that gets overturned is beyond my comprehension. Since when is giving yourself up anything but going to the ground or taking a knee? So if a QB flips the ball it should be considered giving himself up? The returner was a live player. He never signaled fair catch and never let the ball hit the ground without catching it. His intention might have been clear to himself, but ruled aren’t written to the advantage of what the player is thinking. If anyone has an actual NFL rulebook reference that details “giving himself up” as flipping the ball I would love to see it. Because I couldn’t find it. 

[SCBills]

It was definitely the right move to “exercise better judgement” and say he gave himself up.  
 

Just wish the refs would’ve also done that when Ford had the most passive “crackback block” known to man, taking a long FG attempt to win the game off the board. 

[PetermansRedemption]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

It was definitely the right move to “exercise better judgement” and say he gave himself up.  
 

Just wish the refs would’ve also done that when Ford had the most passive “crackback block” known to man, taking a long FG attempt to win the game off the board. 

To me, the rules aren’t there for judgement. They are there to be rules. Take as much judgement out of the officials hands as possible. 

[Richmond_Bills]

7 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

To me, the rules aren’t there for judgement. They are there to be rules. Take as much judgement out of the officials hands as possible. 

Correct.  I was once villianized for successfully challenging a kid missing 1B on a homerun in a youth travel baseball game.  Of course his intent was to touch the base, but he didn't and the rules said that if he didn't touch it and a proper appeal was made, he's out.  

 

I think that the refs called it right and then the "black jackets" overruling was a total botch of the entire situation.  The ref was "bullied" into changing his call.  

[Rocbillsfan1]

11 minutes ago, Richmond_Bills said:

Correct.  I was once villianized for successfully challenging a kid missing 1B on a homerun in a youth travel baseball game.  Of course his intent was to touch the base, but he didn't and the rules said that if he didn't touch it and a proper appeal was made, he's out.  

 

I think that the refs called it right and then the "black jackets" overruling was a total botch of the entire situation.  The ref was "bullied" into changing his call.  

This 100%

25 minutes ago, SCBills said:

It was definitely the right move to “exercise better judgement” and say he gave himself up.  
 

Just wish the refs would’ve also done that when Ford had the most passive “crackback block” known to man, taking a long FG attempt to win the game off the board. 

It’s not about judgement it’s about the rules. How do people not see this? 

[Plano]

38 minutes ago, Richmond_Bills said:

 

43 minutes ago, Richmond_Bills said:

The Ref did signal TD.

 

well, this about wraps it up, you can go home now. 

[Ralonzo]

2 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

And who were those men in black jumpsuits who casually walked up and told the referee what to call? Weird. Never seen that before. Didn't see them again after the game. 

 

If we tell you, we'll have to kill you.

[peterpan]

I'd like to know if McD could have challenged that, and why he didn't.  The dude clearly never kneeled. 

 

 

[Shaw66]

Yes, the Officials Took the Game Away from the Bills

 

Yes, you have to win the game on the field, but the game is supposed to be officiated in a way that gives each team a fair chance to win.  That did not happen in the Bills 22-19 overtime loss at Houston in the wildcard playoff round of the 2019 season.

 

The Bills were leading 13-0 and kicked off to open the second half.  Houston’s kick returner caught the ball in the end zone and made no attempt to run.  The official in the end zone continued to watch him, waiting for him either to begin running or to give himself and take the touchback.  The returner did neither.  Instead, he tossed the ball on the ground in the end zone.  The Bills picked up the ball, and the official signaled touchdown. 

 

After discussion, the referee ruled that the kick returner “intended” to give himself up and that therefore the Texans were entitled to the touchback.

 

The ruling has no support whatsoever in the rules of football.  The “intentions” of a player are not relevant, and the player’s ignorance of the rules are not relevant.   If they were, the personal foul called against Cody Ford in overtime that cost the Bills a shot at a game winning field goal should have been overturned.   After all, either Ford didn’t know the rule or didn’t intend to violate it, so why should the Bills be penalized for what their player did when Houston wasn’t?

 

Here’s the relevant part of the rule:

 

Dead Ball

Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:

(e) when a runner is out of bounds, or declares himself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, and making no effort to advance;

 

That’s the rule.  Unless and until the runner does what the rule says, the ball is not dead.   He didn’t fall to the ground and he didn’t kneel, and the official properly waited for him.   The runner chose to drop the ball to the ground. 

 

Did the runner intend to take a touchback?   Almost certainly he did, but the rule doesn’t say the ball is dead when he drops the ball on the ground, and it doesn’t say the ball is dead when the running back intends for it to be dead. 

 

It was a live ball.  When the Bills recovered, the official properly signaled touchdown. 

 

There’s an obvious and instructive parallel.   Until recently, the rule on kickoffs had been that the ball is a free ball after the kick once it traveled ten yards.   A ball kicked all the way to the end zone could be recovered by the kicking team for a touchdown.   The recent rule change limited the kicking team to recovering the ball in the field of play, but once the ball reaches the end zone a touchback will be declared unless the return man touches it.  

 

Before the rule change, every few years we would see a kick returner who didn’t understand the rules simply let the ball come to rest in the end zone, assuming his team would get a touchback.  If the kicking team recovered it, it was a touchdown.  I do not believe there ever was such a situation in an NFL game when the officials declared no touchdown because the returner didn’t know the rule or “intended” to take the touchback.  His knowledge of the rules or his intention were irrelevant.  It was an egregious mistake by the kick returner, and it cost his team six points.

 

What did kick returners do before the rule change?  They caught the ball and took a knee.  Everyone knew that.

 

The situation in the Bills game was identical.   If the kick returner wanted to give himself up, he had to take a knee.  The official looked at him as if to say “hey, are you going to take a knee?”   He didn’t.   He dropped the ball.   That’s a fumble.  The Bills recovered.  That’s a touchdown. 

 

There was no ambiguity.   All that happened is that the officials decided it would be unfortunate to penalize an ignorant player.  When did that become a rule?

 

How about a guy wearing number 72 coming into the game and, not knowing the rule, does not tell the officials that he will line up on the end of the line.  When he catches the touchdown pass, do the officials award the touchdown because the player didn’t know he was supposed to check in or because he “intended” to?  Of course not. 

 

Ignorance of the rules does not excuse players’ actions on the field. 

 

This wasn’t a case where the official missed something.  The play was completely in the open; everyone could see what happened, and everyone could see that the player did not give himself up in accordance with the rules.  The official didn’t misunderstand what was happening; he did not whistle the ball dead because the ball wasn’t dead.  It was a live ball, lying on the field for anyone to recover.   The Bills recovered it. 

 

That referee should not be permitted to officiate another NFL game. 

 

[GoBills808]

41 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

The head official refuses to take the ball and then calls it a TD. How in the world that gets overturned is beyond my comprehension. Since when is giving yourself up anything but going to the ground or taking a knee? So if a QB flips the ball it should be considered giving himself up? The returner was a live player. He never signaled fair catch and never let the ball hit the ground without catching it. His intention might have been clear to himself, but ruled aren’t written to the advantage of what the player is thinking. If anyone has an actual NFL rulebook reference that details “giving himself up” as flipping the ball I would love to see it. Because I couldn’t find it. 

Also no review even though all scoring plays are supposed to be reviewed automatically. Total officiating failure.

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Because it happens every game

it does not.

[CLTbills]

I'd be curious to know what the rule on that states. 

I hate how a returner just waving his arms constitutes a dead ball. Make the returner field the damn ball.

[buffalo2218]

When I saw it, at first I thought meh, it was nothing. Then as I watched the replay, the official threw that blue piece signaling turnover. I know it won't mean much, but as far as I'm concerned, it was a judgment call.

[Rocbillsfan1]

7 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

I'd be curious to know what the rule on that states. 

I hate how a returner just waving his arms constitutes a dead ball. Make the returner field the damn ball.

Seems to me the rules were posted in the thread and the runner had to give a knee. 

[KD in CA]

Come on.

 

Stop 3d and 18 and we might be discussing next week’s game.

[dbmu1977]

The old ref that made this call and a couple other crazy calls needs to retire

[peterpan]

7 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

Come on.

 

Stop 3d and 18 and we might be discussing next week’s game.

Thanks for bringing that up. 

 

The playclock had expired and should have been delay of game, 3rd and 23.  

[PetermansRedemption]

19 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

I'd be curious to know what the rule on that states. 

I hate how a returner just waving his arms constitutes a dead ball. Make the returner field the damn ball.

It shouldn’t. It’s not a valid fair catch signal. The rules do spell out what is a valid fair catch signal. So if the waiving of the arms is what constitutes giving himself up he should have at least gotten flagged for an invalid fair catch signal IMO. 

[KD in CA]

1 minute ago, peterpan said:

Thanks for bringing that up. 

 

The playclock had expired and should have been delay of game, 3rd and 23.  

 

And then presumably the entire defense would have set up camp 40 yards downfield.....

[PetermansRedemption]

12 minutes ago, buffalo2218 said:

When I saw it, at first I thought meh, it was nothing. Then as I watched the replay, the official threw that blue piece signaling turnover. I know it won't mean much, but as far as I'm concerned, it was a judgment call.

And if it was a judgement call, it should have remained with the call on the field. The leader of the crew, the head referee, is the one who made the call. He made clear with his body language that he wasn’t going to accept the flipped ball. He then let the play continue and called it a TD. Someone said it before, but I wonder who those NFL officials in the trench coats on the sidelines were. And if they had anything to do with the overturning of the call. 

[4merper4mer]

22 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

I'd be curious to know what the rule on that states. 

I hate how a returner just waving his arms constitutes a dead ball. Make the returner field the damn ball.

It doesnt

 

That t pose thing is a signal to his team.  He is 100% allowed to do that and then run it out.

[GoBills808]

‘Judgement call’ kills me lol...why even have a rule book then?

 

Ford obviously didn’t MEAN to peelback on that LB, so no foul right???

[The Jokeman]

3 hours ago, Floydboy12 said:

Only the Bills have to follow the strict interpretation of the rules. Hopkins short of sticks?  Ah hell give him the first. Ford block? Yes we must follow the rules. Play clock at 0 for 2 seconds on 3rd and 18?  Ah hell happens all the time. 

Yeah that free 1st down hurt. You also forget the holding call on Siran that we never saw a replay for.

[MPT]

2 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Because it happens every game

 

No, it literally never happens. Because teams know that you have to down the ball. He screwed up, and we got screwed.

[RiotAct]

19 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

And then presumably the entire defense would have set up camp 40 yards downfield.....

sad but true.

[Rock'em Sock'em]

3 hours ago, peterpan said:

Since when does double fists, arms spread, signal a fair catch/give up???

I don't think there is a rule about the arms spread meaning give up, but in this case it was pretty clear he was giving himself up when he tossed the ball to the referee.  That being said, if he quickly picks up the ball and returns it 100 yards for a touchdown of his own, do the refs huddle up and rule that he gave himself up?  Probably not.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Rock'em Sock'em

[Aussie Joe]

Just now, MPT said:

 

No, it literally never happens. Because teams know that you have to down the ball. He screwed up, and we got screwed.

The argument is over what constitutes the player “giving himself up”...

 

Not just on kicks but other plays to...

 

If you think it’s cut and dried argument, have a read of Twitter... 

 

 

[The Jokeman]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

 

Now that I have reviewed the play, the ref blows the play dead. You can see the ref behind the play holding his hand up with his whistle in his mouth marking the turnover's spot. 

 

Had the endzone ref or another ref blown the play dead then this would be null and void. Since the the play was not blown dead its a live ball until a whistle blows it dead. 

 

Hell, they could of said they had the intent to blow the play dead and that would of been the end of it. They worsened the situation by saying that after a discussion they were overturning the call on the field which was a touchdown. Not only did they give no legitimate reason for the overturn but also ignored the fact it had been ruled a TD on the field which would require a Booth Review as all scoring plays are reviewed.

The booth seemed to review quite a few non scoring plays too including a few ball placement calls etc.

[buffalo2218]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

‘Judgement call’ kills me lol...why even have a rule book then?

 

Ford obviously didn’t MEAN to peelback on that LB, so no foul right???

For years, so many judgment calls that showed the call wrong have been like that. If the official called what the KR did a fumble, and even signaled a turnover, then because O'Brien boo hooed about it, he reverses his own judgment call? On the way home from the airport, I was listening to CBS radio. The broadcaster was like the Bills were incredibly jobbed because of that. I don't really want it to go down as a blown call personally, it makes the loss that much worse

[MPT]

29 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

Come on.

 

Stop 3d and 18 and we might be discussing next week’s game.

 

You mean the play where several of our players were pointing at the play clock at zero? Probably should have stopped it anyway, but it's just another in a long list of ways the referees bent the rules for the Texans. Our guys were probably a little distracted thinking it would be called.

1 minute ago, Aussie Joe said:

The argument is over what constitutes the player “giving himself up”...

 

Not just on kicks but other plays to...

 

If you think it’s cut and dried argument, have a read of Twitter... 

 

 

 

There is no argument. The rule says you have to down the ball in the endzone for a touchback. There is nothing about "giving yourself up" so that is a meaningless point. "Giving yourself up" refers to plays in between the endzones only.