Ex-Patriots rival picks Tre'Davious White over Stephon Gilmore as NFL Defensive MVP

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/ex-patriots-rival-picks-tredavious-182217590.html
 

 

 

 

White is having a tremendous season and his six interceptions is tied with Gilmore for the league lead. Gilmore has returned two of his interceptions for touchdowns, with the latest coming in New England's Week 15 win over the Cincinnati Bengals. He's also allowed a passer rating under 35 on throws into his coverage and leads the league with 19 passes defensed. The 2018 All-Pro routinely shuts down the opposing team's best wide receiver as well.

[Scott7975]

The answer is... Because he plays for Buffalo.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

The answer is... Because he plays for Buffalo.

This is kind of where I’m at. Tre has been every bit as good as Gilmore this year and has done so on an equally dominant defense. Gilmore has run a couple back but that’s pretty much the only difference. The people in the camp that “Gilmore is DPOY” have to look at Tre in a very similar manner. He’s been a dominant player and should be 1st team all-pro.

[atlbillsfan1975]

Has Tre been toasted like Gilmore was on Saturday?

 

Followed by the patented ‘Gilmore Glance’ at the Jumbotron and looking for someone else to blame.
 

Edited December 25, 2019 by atlbillsfan1975

[Augie]

I’d love Tre to be widely recognized as the best CB in the NFL, but preferably after we sign him to a new deal! ?

[NoSaint]

9 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This is kind of where I’m at. Tre has been every bit as good as Gilmore this year and has done so on an equally dominant defense. Gilmore has run a couple back but that’s pretty much the only difference. The people in the camp that “Gilmore is DPOY” have to look at Tre in a very similar manner. He’s been a dominant player and should be 1st team all-pro.

longevity is a piece of it. 
 

and team success.

 

market obviously matters too but top paid free agent on a super bowl contender that’s made huge plays on the biggest stages gets more looks by default. 

[whatdrought]

39 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

longevity is a piece of it. 

 

Curios what you mean by that?

[RiotAct]

46 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

As Tre been toasted like Gilmore was on Saturday?

 

Followed by the patented ‘Gilmore Glance’ at the Jumbotron and looking for someone else to blame.
 

I can remember like two or three plays all year where Tre was clearly beat by the WR

[ny33]

2 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Curios what you mean by that?

Fair or not, a veteran like Gilmore, with a history of elite play, is more likely to get the nod than someone on his rookie contract like White if both have strong cases for the award. Awards in most professional sports often go to the more experienced player in a toss-up scenario. Some writers will also prioritize the player on a team with a better record, which is particularly moronic in Cy Young voting (deGrom)

[whatdrought]

Just now, ny33 said:

Fair or not, a veteran like Gilmore, with a history of elite play, is more likely to get the nod than someone on his rookie contract like White if both have strong cases for the award. Awards in most professional sports often go to the more experienced player in a toss-up scenario. Some writers will also prioritize the player on a team with a better record, which is particularly moronic in Cy Young voting (deGrom)

 

Makes sense. I did read something the other day that said for the past three years (since they have been on their current teams) Tre has the best numbers for a Corner, with Gilmore at second. 

[ny33]

9 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Makes sense. I did read something the other day that said for the past three years (since they have been on their current teams) Tre has the best numbers for a Corner, with Gilmore at second. 

It seemed absurd for Tre to lose DROY to Lattimore, but there is as strong of a case for Gilmore to get DPOY. We would probably save a million+ a year if Tre doesn’t have the awards on his resumé when we negotiate his extension. I hope Beane has been spending a lot of time planning on how to best budget for and time extensions for guys like Tre, Milano, Edmunds, and Dawkins, especially if Josh keeps getting better at a rapid pace. We are lucky that he has a great eye for veteran FA deals at team-friendly rates and a good draft track record, as we are probably going to lose 1-2 of the rookie contract guys on defense if Josh plays really well next year. 

[whatdrought]

5 minutes ago, ny33 said:

It seemed absurd for Tre to lose DROY to Lattimore, but there is as strong of a case for Gilmore to get DPOY. We would probably save a million+ a year if Tre doesn’t have the awards on his resumé when we negotiate his extension. I hope Beane has been spending a lot of time planning on how to best budget for and time extensions for guys like Tre, Milano, Edmunds, and Dawkins, especially if Josh keeps getting better at a rapid pace. We are lucky that he has a great eye for veteran FA deals at team-friendly rates and a good draft track record, as we are probably going to lose 1-2 of the rookie contract guys on defense if Josh plays really well next year. 

 

Yeah. That was a joke. I don't think it's that Gilmore doesn't have a case, it's just that Tre isn't getting any mention at all. And he should. 

 

Yep. Beane is gonna have a lot of work to do. 

[Patrick Duffy]

Loved watching Gilmore get burned up by John Brown Saturday though. He got okie doked. hahahahah

[Dr.Sack]

Gilmore has been equally as good plus he won the head to head. Not fair. But this is how we grade out QBs, Wins & Losses.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

I’d love Tre to be widely recognized as the best CB in the NFL, but preferably after we sign him to a new deal! ?

He and Lattimore will be battling for the highest paid.  Adroree jackson will probably try and throw himself in the conversation 

[Scott7975]

Its funny because he played in Buffalo for 5 years before going to NE.  He made the pro bowl once on his last season here.  He was just as good in Buffalo as he has been in NE.  He hits NE and all of a sudden he is first team all pro and probably dpoy.  He was every bit as good here.

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He and Lattimore will be battling for the highest paid.  Adroree jackson will probably try and throw himself in the conversation 

 

Marlon Humphrey too. That was a great class. 

[atlbillsfan1975]

7 hours ago, RiotAct said:

I can remember like two or three plays all year where Tre was clearly beat by the WR

I remember in the Eagles game for sure one play. Did any go for a TD?

[mannc]

According to Chris Simms, Tre gets downgraded in the top corner conversation because Buffalo plays so much zone, whereas Gilmore is always locked in on the opponent’s best receiver.  Simms rated Tre just outside the top 5.  FWIW, his top 3 were Gilmore, Ramsey, and Humphrey.  I don’t really buy it, but I do respect Simms’s opinion.

[Big C]

41 minutes ago, mannc said:

According to Chris Simms, Tre gets downgraded in the top corner conversation because Buffalo plays so much zone, whereas Gilmore is always locked in on the opponent’s best receiver.  Simms rated Tre just outside the top 5.  FWIW, his top 3 were Gilmore, Ramsey, and Humphrey.  I don’t really buy it, but I do respect Simms’s opinion.

 

The zone thing makes a difference, but I think we've seen Tre play a decent amount of man as well. I would be curious to see if there were stats out there detailing the percentage of plays in zone vs man. 

[NoSaint]

9 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

Curios what you mean by that?

Like it or not, guys build a reputation. Gilmore is much further along in cementing his status at the top. People have heard his name, seen his highlights for much longer and just kind of expect him to be associated with the top CB status. Tre is building that. 

9 hours ago, ny33 said:

Fair or not, a veteran like Gilmore, with a history of elite play, is more likely to get the nod than someone on his rookie contract like White if both have strong cases for the award. Awards in most professional sports often go to the more experienced player in a toss-up scenario. Some writers will also prioritize the player on a team with a better record, which is particularly moronic in Cy Young voting (deGrom)

yup. 
 

seeing a guy on the pro bowl list year in and year out, covering his massive contract signing, interviewing him at super bowl media day etc... definitely effects how you subconsciously position a guy for stuff like this. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

Like it or not, guys build a reputation. Gilmore is much further along in cementing his status at the top. People have heard his name, seen his highlights for much longer and just kind of expect him to be associated with the top CB status. Tre is building that. 

 

I even think it is right that this matters to an extent. When I am asked to rank the best 10 players at the NFL in any one position what I look at is consistency over multiple years. Yes, what you are doing the current year should play in and be appropriately weighted but people who get too hung up on single season performance levels end up arguing (as many talking heads did last year) that Kyle Fuller is a top 5 corner in the NFL. Clearly ludicrous. He is a slightly above average player who had an outstanding season on a terrific defense. He is back to his usual standard this year. Decent, yes. Top 10 at his position? No chance. 

 

Tre now has 3 consecutive outstanding years under his belt. That is the consistency I need to see to label someone an elite corner. Gilmore is there as well and he is equally deserving. 

[Captain Murica]

12 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

The answer is... Because he plays for Buffalo.

 

10 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This is kind of where I’m at. Tre has been every bit as good as Gilmore this year and has done so on an equally dominant defense. Gilmore has run a couple back but that’s pretty much the only difference. The people in the camp that “Gilmore is DPOY” have to look at Tre in a very similar manner. He’s been a dominant player and should be 1st team all-pro.

 

 

[NoSaint]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I even think it is right that this matters to an extent. When I am asked to rank the best 10 players at the NFL in any one position what I look at is consistency over multiple years. Yes, what you are doing the current year should play in and be appropriately weighted but people who get too hung up on single season performance levels end up arguing (as many talking heads did last year) that Kyle Fuller is a top 5 corner in the NFL. Clearly ludicrous. He is a slightly above average player who had an outstanding season on a terrific defense. He is back to his usual standard this year. Decent, yes. Top 10 at his position? No chance. 

 

Tre now has 3 consecutive outstanding years under his belt. That is the consistency I need to see to label someone an elite corner. Gilmore is there as well and he is equally deserving. 

yup- but DPOY is an of the year category, so some people like awards like that or MVP to be very much based on this year. Others like the larger resume. I tend to pull the best of the year and use the resume for any near tie breaks. 

[hemma]

May be my bias, but Gilmore seems to get away with holding more in NE than he did with the Bills.

Here, the flags would fly.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, hemma said:

May be my bias, but Gilmore seems to get away with holding more in NE than he did with the Bills.

Here, the flags would fly.

 

It is your bias. 

[Scott7975]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is your bias. 

 

 

Grabbed this from an article.

[Foxx]

22 minutes ago, hemma said:

May be my bias, but Gilmore seems to get away with holding more in NE than he did with the Bills.

Here, the flags would fly.

 

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is your bias. 

 

10 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

Grabbed this from an article.

that chart doesn't disprove his contention. it only catalogs the times he was penalized. 

Edited December 25, 2019 by Foxx

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

Grabbed this from an article.

 

A guy grabbed significantly more as a rookie and then it has been within the margin of error ever since. Indeed 2018 was his 2nd most penalised year. 

 

He does not "get away with more" just because he has a Pats jersey on. 

[hemma]

10 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

Grabbed this from an article.

 

I think he has 5 through 15 games this year. 

His grabbing doesn't seem any more subtle than 5 years ago, but then again, I do hate the Pats.

[Scott7975]

Probably just seems he gets away with more because he doesn't get flagged against Buffalo.

[Yobogoya!]

14 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

Grabbed this from an article.

The problem with a chart like this is it doesn’t account for flags that aren’t thrown, which is kind of the complaint if we’re talking about Gilmore getting away with penalties. 
 

he might have a good number of flags in the table for this year, but what if there are five more that should have been called? And what if those five flags came at very important times in the context of the games that were played?

[Scott7975]

2 minutes ago, Yobogoya! said:

The problem with a chart like this is it doesn’t account for flags that aren’t thrown, which is kind of the complaint if we’re talking about Gilmore getting away with penalties. 
 

he might have a good number of flags in the table for this year, but what if there are five more that should have been called? And what if those five flags came at very important times in the context of the games that were played?

 

Well, the problem with that is there is no way to really know.  What if there were 5 more in each season that he played for the Bills?

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Well, the problem with that is there is no way to really know.  What if there were 5 more in each season that he played for the Bills?

 

It is just another part of the endless conspiracy theory paranoia on this board about the Pats. It has gone into overdrive since Saturday.  

[Yobogoya!]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Well, the problem with that is there is no way to really know.  What if there were 5 more in each season that he played for the Bills?

Right, you would have to watch and analyze each snap he’s played for both teams all those years. 
 

which means making a judgment either way is a crapshoot. But I hate the Patriots, so even if the statement that Gilmore gets away with more now is irrational, I’m ok with it. ?

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is just another part of the endless conspiracy theory paranoia on this board about the Pats. It has gone into overdrive since Saturday.  

 

Well, I am guilty of having my own conspiracies haha.  This isn't one of them though.  I mean there was one game where White got flagged for doing the same ***** Gilmore does, but its whatever.  That happens every game.  Officials just suck in general.

[Foxx]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is just another part of the endless conspiracy theory paranoia on this board about the Pats. It has gone into overdrive since Saturday.  

to be fair, there were some.... out of the norm "happenstance" events, in Saturday's game that favored the Pats.

[Buffalo Junction]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

According to Chris Simms, Tre gets downgraded in the top corner conversation because Buffalo plays so much zone, whereas Gilmore is always locked in on the opponent’s best receiver.  Simms rated Tre just outside the top 5.  FWIW, his top 3 were Gilmore, Ramsey, and Humphrey.  I don’t really buy it, but I do respect Simms’s opinion.

It’s certainly a valid point. If you’re the best corner in the league you dominate in both man and zone. Tre’s a top 5 corner hands down. None of the top guys are substantially better than the rest like Deon or are is though. The flipside is that until midway through last season Gilmore’s weaknesses zone coverage and speed. The media seems to have forgotten his first season in NE where he blew a lot of zone coverages; particularly cover 3 and quarters. The speed issue has been partially resolved by NE referee treatment and the league calling defensive PI less frequently this season. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Foxx said:

to be fair, there were some.... out of the norm "happenstance" events, in Saturday's game that favored the Pats.

 

There were and there were others that fans here were up in arms about that were called in a way that was entirely consistent with what you see around the league week to week. Including short yardage first down / non first down reviews for both teams. Might Gilmore get the benefit of the doubt a time or two over the course of a season? Maybe. But the numbers don't prima facie support that and it makes zero difference to how good he is. And he was always terrific after his rookie year. Even here. 

[Foxx]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

There were and there were others that fans here were up in arms about that were called in a way that was entirely consistent with what you see around the league week to week. Including short yardage first down / non first down reviews for both teams. Might Gilmore get the benefit of the doubt a time or two over the course of a season? Maybe. But the numbers don't prima facie support that and it makes zero difference to how good he is. And he was always terrific after his rookie year. Even here. 

i'm not a big conspiracy theorist when it comes to officiating, though i do think that there can be a bias. even if  it is unconscious. 

 

my comment was not directed specifically towards Gilmore (in know, that's what the discussion was centered around where i interjected myself into said conversation), more towards certain other situations that just stuck out like a sore thumb. the non call for intentional grounding on Brady was probably the most egregious of the night. there has to be a way where calls so obvious as this are rectified in that moment. that there is a limitation on what calls are subject to review, is to me attacking the problem from the wrong angle. however that is the subject of a totally different discussion. and just to bring it back to the discussion that was at hand a bit, i do think it is hard to be objective on subjective calls (such as pass interference) when the standard changes so greatly from one officiating crew to the next. how is one to have an accurate understanding of the baseline when this is the case?

 

the other, "event" that was rightly noticed by the refs and corrected, was the game clock situation. i have seen these types of things in other games as well but the time lapse in the Pats game Saturday was especially foul. and given the Pats track record of things they are, both rightfully and wrongfully associated with, it doesn't sit well.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Foxx