Coleman selects Harris, Briscoe top 5 black quarterbacks

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, John Gianelli said:

On ESPN radio just now, Freddie Coleman chose as his top 5 black quarterbacks

 

1) Doug Williams

2) Steve McNair

3) James Harris

4) Michael Vick

5) Marlin Briscoe

 

Harris played quarterback for the Bills. Briscoe was a wide receiver with the Bills, but he did attempt 3 passes.

 

I'm surprised he didn't have Russell Wilson or Randall Cunningham in his top 5.

 

That's a pretty freakin' hard list to defend.  Wilson, as you say, Cunningham, as you say, and what about Warren Moon?

 

 

42 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

Yea, even if his list had some other qualifier, like "most historically significant", it is hard not to have Warren Moon on that list -- and at the top. Remember, Moon had to play in Canada for several years because he was told by NFL executives/scouts that he did not have an "NFL arm". Yet, Moon had one of the finest arms -- and probably threw one of the prettiest passes -- in NFL history. You could argue that Moon -- more so than even Douq Williams -- played the greatest role in shattering stereotypes. 

 

I loved me some Warren Moon.  Amazing arm.  Amazing offense.

[Marv's Neighbor]

If he's referring to our James Harris

[Mango]

8 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

Lol what is this crap? Whatever a Freddie Coleman is, I'm pretty sure he wont have a job tomorrow if he did this list on ESPN's dime as noted. I'm as anti PC culture as anyone, but a qb is a qb. I dont see race factoring into my judgment of how good or bad a qubby is.

Well considering we are about a generation and a half removed from redlining being a legal practice and coaches telling black kids they aren’t smart enough to play QB, I think it’s OK to celebrate their successes on their own. You may not “see color”, but others do and it has very real consequences. 

[WotAGuy]

20 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I'm surprised it's 2019 and we're still making separate lists for black athletes/people.  

 

Pathetic.

I don’t think it’s pathetic in terms of listing who changed the thinking that a black man couldn’t be a starting NFL QB, which is what this list sounds like. 
 

“Pathetic” is the fact that it was such a big deal when James Harris was named the Bills starter and there were actually questions about whether a black man had the intelligence to lead a team. OJ’s book “The Education of a Rich Rookie” related some of the crap James had to put up with being a black QB in the late 1960s. 
 

Briscoe was a dynamic QB for Denver but Saban didn’t want him to continue playing QB. Doug Williams was the first black QB to lead a team to a Super Bowl victory and that was a very big deal at the time. 
 

I think by the time Vick came along, those old  prejudices had largely disappeared. But he changed the type of player a QB could be. 

[Jay_Fixit]

Doug Williams was awful.

[Gugny]

8 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

I don’t think it’s pathetic in terms of listing who changed the thinking that a black man couldn’t be a starting NFL QB, which is what this list sounds like. 
 

“Pathetic” is the fact that it was such a big deal when James Harris was named the Bills starter and there were actually questions about whether a black man had the intelligence to lead a team. OJ’s book “The Education of a Rich Rookie” related some of the crap James had to put up with being a black QB in the late 1960s. 
 

Briscoe was a dynamic QB for Denver but Saban didn’t want him to continue playing QB. Doug Williams was the first black QB to lead a team to a Super Bowl victory and that was a very big deal at the time. 
 

I think by the time Vick came along, those old  prejudices had largely disappeared. But he changed the type of player a QB could be. 

 

I just don't find it necessary to segregate when ranking anything.  Rank the best QBs, period.  I realize the position has historically been dominated by white men; just like the CB and WR positions have historically been dominated by black men.

 

Why don't we see a "Best White WRs of All Time," list?  

 

Optics.  That's why.

 

It's not just sports.  Forbes made a list titled, "The Black Billionaires 2019."  Again ... I get it.  It wasn't that long ago that MLK marched and was subsequently assassinated.

 

But these kinds of lists, regardless of their intention, do nothing but perpetuate segregation.

 

I just think it's dumb.  

[WotAGuy]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

I just don't find it necessary to segregate when ranking anything.  Rank the best QBs, period.  I realize the position has historically been dominated by white men; just like the CB and WR positions have historically been dominated by black men.

 

Why don't we see a "Best White WRs of All Time," list?  

 

Optics.  That's why.

 

It's not just sports.  Forbes made a list titled, "The Black Billionaires 2019."  Again ... I get it.  It wasn't that long ago that MLK marched and was subsequently assassinated.

 

But these kinds of lists, regardless of their intention, do nothing but perpetuate segregation.

 

I just think it's dumb.  

A poster mentioned the list came about as a request from a listener. Perhaps your issue is with the listener?

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, WotAGuy said:

A poster mentioned the list came about as a request from a listener. Perhaps your issue is with the listener?

 

My issue is with society; not one person/publication in specific.

[WotAGuy]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

My issue is with society; not one person/publication in specific.

I see your point.  You must get aggravated a lot then ?

[Gugny]

Just now, WotAGuy said:

I see your point.  You must get aggravated a lot then ?

 

Daily.  

[NoSaint]

5 hours ago, fansince88 said:

I really think this is divisive.  Why say 1st black this or female that. I never understood the reason to emphasize it. 

I bet I can guess your race and gender 
 

while I think we sometimes get carried away- it doesn’t shock me that people get excited to identify with successes 

[Rob's House]

5 hours ago, fansince88 said:

I really think this is divisive.  Why say 1st black this or female that. I never understood the reason to emphasize it. 

 

It made sense when barriers were being broken. Nowadays it gets a little silly when we're pretending to care about the first black female tennis player to win a tournament on the second Tuesday in May.

[John Gianelli]

It wasn't my intent to make this a conversation about where we stand on racial and societal issues. I posted it because two of the five players mentioned were Bills at one time, and I'm old enough to remember when they played. I remember when Marlin Briscoe had a great game as the Bronco QB to beat the Bills (with a big assist from Floyd Little). That game was a heart breaker, in a season when the Bills were quite terrible. Thus I was thrilled when he joined the Bills.

[Chandler#81]

From my collection.

Congrats James, Marlin & the Bills!

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

11 hours ago, Augie said:

Why create or emphasis that divide? They are all QB’s, and some are better than others. 

 

 

...agree Augie.......but it was sad to read many posts over time about the late RW being a racist.....yet TWO of the top five black QB's were BUFFALO BILLS.....SMH.....

[cage]

DeShawn Watson is already better than Briscoe,... Com'n Man!

 

I just looked it up and he played a single season as a QB with the following stats, the rest of his career he was a WR:

 

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD
1968	23	DEN	QB	15	11	5	2-3-0	93	224	41.5	1589	14	6.3	13	5.8	66	7.1	5.7	17.1	144.5	62.9						1	2

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 minutes ago, cage said:

DeShawn Watson is already better than Briscoe,... Com'n Man!

 

I just looked it up and he played a single season as a QB with the following stats, the rest of his career he was a WR:

 

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD
1968	23	DEN	QB	15	11	5	2-3-0	93	224	41.5	1589	14	6.3	13	5.8	66	7.1	5.7	17.1	144.5	62.9						1	2

 

...so comparing players with a FIFTY YEAR spread in the careers is a valid comparison?...um....er....uh....well....thanks.....

[cage]

6 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...so comparing players with a FIFTY YEAR spread in the careers is a valid comparison?...um....er....uh....well....thanks.....

 

top 5?? I'm just saying Briscoe doesn't belong that list.  How can you be top 5 all time if you played the position for one year..... um... your welcome....

[purple haze]

6 hours ago, fansince88 said:

I really think this is divisive.  Why say 1st black this or female that. I never understood the reason to emphasize it. 

Divisive to whom?  I would say to you that the reasons behind there being a first "this" or "that" is why the accomplishment is emphasized.

Edited November 23, 2019 by purple haze

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

13 minutes ago, cage said:

 

top 5?? I'm just saying Briscoe doesn't belong that list.  How can you be top 5 all time if you played the position for one year..... um... your welcome....

...so how about honorable mention?....always liked "Marlin the Magician"......with that nickname, how could you not??.........

[fansince88]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

I bet I can guess your race and gender 
 

while I think we sometimes get carried away- it doesn’t shock me that people get excited to identify with successes 

Interesting that you would race and gender profile me. Thst said, my point is you never hear about the first (insert race or gender) of your choice that committed a crime. We dont say most yards by a black vs white rb. Because that is wrong. Your reply shows a bit of ignorance imho.

[yungmack]

10 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

Lol what is this crap? Whatever a Freddie Coleman is, I'm pretty sure he wont have a job tomorrow if he did this list on ESPN's dime as noted. I'm as anti PC culture as anyone, but a qb is a qb. I dont see race factoring into my judgment of how good or bad a qubby is.

Would Best Leftie QBs, or Best Big Ten QBs be okay? If so, you're choosing to be upset by this list. And FWIW, if Moon or Cunningham aren't on the list, it's a joke.

[LSHMEAB]

11 hours ago, NC Book said:

How about the top 10 white rbs? Would Tim Tindale crack that list? 

Wasn't ole Tim primarily a fullback? I remember him toting the rock quite a bit, but don't think he'd qualify.

[fansince88]

10 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Divisive to whom?  I would say to you that the reasons behind there being a first "this" or "that" is why the accomplishment is emphasized.

I dont have a first white friend. I dont have a first Black friend. I dont have a first Chineese friend. I have multiple friends. The human race is just that. A complete race of people. I get the accomplishment of the first in the sport but not the first in the position. It reads in the OP post as if being a black QB is some great feat and their quality in the sport cant be compared to that of a white QB. I have racist companions that think a black man cant be a quality qb and have had some pretty heated arguments against that mentality. That is my point. We do not live in a world (for the most part) where race is considered when being put on the field 

[Shooter McGavin]

Top 5 Pakistani NFL Quarterbacks 

1. Gibran Hamdan

2. N/A

3. N/A
4. N/A
5. N/A

[Orlando Tim]

12 hours ago, John Gianelli said:

On ESPN radio just now, Freddie Coleman chose as his top 5 black quarterbacks

 

1) Doug Williams

2) Steve McNair

3) James Harris

4) Michael Vick

5) Marlin Briscoe

 

Harris played quarterback for the Bills. Briscoe was a wide receiver with the Bills, but he did attempt 3 passes.

 

I'm surprised he didn't have Russell Wilson or Randall Cunningham in his top 5.

I will state there has to be a qualifier that you are unaware of, such as which college they went to- Warren Moon and McNabb are far better than any QB on that list as is Wilson and Cunningham as you mentioned 

[NoSaint]

14 minutes ago, fansince88 said:

Interesting that you would race and gender profile me. Thst said, my point is you never hear about the first (insert race or gender) of your choice that committed a crime. We dont say most yards by a black vs white rb. Because that is wrong. Your reply shows a bit of ignorance imho.

super edgy! Was just pointing out that as a largely white male group here, there may be elements at play in the talk of why other races and genders feel the way they do that many here won’t fully understand.  As it’s a football thread let’s call it a day here. Plus, I have no desire to debate it.

 

to the list, without context in the OP I’d guess hearing that it was a radio show maybe it came About conversationally and wasn’t prepped for in advance causing names to fall through the cracks?  

1 minute ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I will state there has to be a qualifier that you are unaware of, such as which college they went to- Warren Moon and McNabb are far better than any QB on that list as is Wilson and Cunningham as you mentioned 

With such obvious omissions I jump straight to then shooting from the hip and just spacing on some options that could be on it. But could be a weird qualifier added.

[fansince88]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

super edgy! Was just pointing out that as a largely white male group here, there may be elements at play in the talk of why other races and genders feel the way they do that many here won’t fully understand.  As it’s a football thread let’s call it a day here. Plus, I have no desire to debate it.

 

to the list, without context in the OP I’d guess hearing that it was a radio show maybe it came About conversationally and wasn’t prepped for in advance causing names to fall through the cracks?  

With such obvious omissions I jump straight to then shooting from the hip and just spacing on some options that could be on it. But could be a weird qualifier

Ok. Although you debated it and ended with I dont want to debate it I will leave it alone. 

[Kirby Jackson]

I honestly didn’t see this topic as divisive or crazy. I really just looked at it as a football topic. To me the debate is “most important black QB” vs. “best black QB.” Those aren’t the same. There were a bunch of pioneers like Doug Williams. With that being said, Russell Wilson is a way better player. 

[Albany,n.y.]

5 hours ago, st pete gogolak said:

 

It can't be "best".  It has to be "most historic" or "most significant".  Briscoe played some QB for the Broncos before coming over to the Bills.  Harris I believe was first starting black QB.  Williams won a Super Bowl, etc.

I think you're on to something:

1) Doug Williams -1st to be a 1st round pick in the NFL & 1st to win a Super Bowl

2) Steve McNair-3rd pick in the draft, 2nd to start a Super Bowl

3) James Harris-1st to start a season as a starting QB

4) Michael Vick-1st to be the #1 pick of the entire draft

5) Marlin Briscoe-1st to be a starting QB (one year before Harris became the 1st to start a season opener)

 

In all probability, since the 2 leading MVP candidates are black QBs,  there was a discussion about the history of the black QB and these 5 were deemed the most historical who paved the way for this generation of black QBs.  It is a significant topic because without these pioneers, Russell Wilson may have been deemed too short to ever get the chance & Lamar Jackson may have been told to be a WR, like Briscoe ended up & Bill Polian said he should be before the draft.  

 

[clearwater cadet]

why does espn care if a QB is white or black?

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

I bet I can guess your race and gender 
 

while I think we sometimes get carried away- it doesn’t shock me that people get excited to identify with successes 

I have never understood why there’s this emphasis to have the same skin color to identify with an athlete. Why can’t a young black running back in middle schoo look up to CMC? Why a white high school QB can’t imagine himself as a Vince Young or a Mike Vick? 

 

It’s quite an interesting phenomenon that’s seemingly isolated to football.

[Mango]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I just don't find it necessary to segregate when ranking anything.  Rank the best QBs, period.  I realize the position has historically been dominated by white men; just like the CB and WR positions have historically been dominated by black men.

 

Why don't we see a "Best White WRs of All Time," list?  

 

Optics.  That's why.

 

It's not just sports.  Forbes made a list titled, "The Black Billionaires 2019."  Again ... I get it.  It wasn't that long ago that MLK marched and was subsequently assassinated.

 

But these kinds of lists, regardless of their intention, do nothing but perpetuate segregation.

 

I just think it's dumb.  

My living family can tell you stories of black homes being burned down for moving into white neighborhoods in south buffalo. 
 

It isn’t dumb and people shouldn’t just get over it and move forward, because it isn’t all equal. 

[Kirby Jackson]

9 minutes ago, clearwater cadet said:

why does espn care if a QB is white or black?

I really don’t think that they care. A caller raised a topic and the host went with it. 

8 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

I have never understood why there’s this emphasis to have the same skin color to identify with an athlete. Why can’t a young black running back in middle schoo look up to CMC? Why a white high school QB can’t imagine himself as a Vince Young or a Mike Vick? 

 

It’s quite an interesting phenomenon that’s seemingly isolated to football.

Bill Simmons used to talk about this. No one ever compares players across races. It’s so funny because Josh’s best comparison, imo, is Cam Newton (and it’s not that close). 

[BringBackOrton]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I really don’t think that they care. A caller raised a topic and the host went with it. 

Bill Simmons used to talk about this. No one ever compares players across races. It’s so funny because Josh’s best comparison, imo, is Cam Newton (and it’s not that close). 

It’s so football oriented. White kids and black kids play basketball and imagine themselves as Curry, Harden, Durant, Lebron, etc etc. But when they play football, it has to be the Adam Thielen’s vs the Mike Vick’s for whatever weird reason.

 

It’s probably media driven honestly. I still want to be Randy Moss.

[Albany,n.y.]

40 minutes ago, fansince88 said:

I dont have a first white friend. I dont have a first Black friend. I dont have a first Chineese friend. I have multiple friends. The human race is just that. A complete race of people. I get the accomplishment of the first in the sport but not the first in the position. It reads in the OP post as if being a black QB is some great feat and their quality in the sport cant be compared to that of a white QB. I have racist companions that think a black man cant be a quality qb and have had some pretty heated arguments against that mentality. That is my point. We do not live in a world (for the most part) where race is considered when being put on the field 

I'm guessing from your name you weren't around when race was considered when it came to QBs.  Good for you & your generation, but it clearly was a factor back in the 60s, 70s & 80s and the years before those decades.  It was only around the 1990s that things changed to the point that your last statement is now true.  

Here's what the Buffalo Evening News said the day after Harris was drafted:  (From Relentless P158): "...in the eighth round , they selected James Harris, a black quarterback from Grambling.  A Buffalo Evening News headline read: ' A 6-4 N-egro QB, Harris, drafted 8th by the Bills.'  The story said Harris 'is a n-egro, one of the few of his race to be drafted as a quarterback in pro football.' " 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Albany,n.y.

[BringBackFergy]

1 hour ago, cage said:

DeShawn Watson is already better than Briscoe,... Com'n Man!

 

I just looked it up and he played a single season as a QB with the following stats, the rest of his career he was a WR:

 

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD
1968	23	DEN	QB	15	11	5	2-3-0	93	224	41.5	1589	14	6.3	13	5.8	66	7.1	5.7	17.1	144.5	62.9						1	2

Definitely KMart...23 Oak Street...definitely 23 Oak Street

[Bookie Man]

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

Wasn't ole Tim primarily a fullback? I remember him toting the rock quite a bit, but don't think he'd qualify.

Ha yes. I couldn't pull any other names of white Bills RB's off the top of my head.

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, fansince88 said:

I dont have a first white friend. I dont have a first Black friend. I dont have a first Chineese friend. I have multiple friends. The human race is just that. A complete race of people. I get the accomplishment of the first in the sport but not the first in the position. It reads in the OP post as if being a black QB is some great feat and their quality in the sport cant be compared to that of a white QB. I have racist companions that think a black man cant be a quality qb and have had some pretty heated arguments against that mentality. That is my point. We do not live in a world (for the most part) where race is considered when being put on the field 

 

Bolded taints your entire premise. We still do, but it’s getting better.

[DC Tom]

14 hours ago, RufusTheMad said:

Warren Moon?

 

Not having him and Cunningham over Vick makes that list completely ridiculous.