Question for the Liberals/Progressives on the Forum

[Bob in Mich]

11 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

What’s always been sort of fascinating about DJT to me is that with as brash as he is, with as many people as he dealt with, you would think former employees would be lined up for miles willing to talk about what a horrible human being he is having cheated/lied/screwed them while they worked for him.  The fact is that absent a few outliers who certainly might just be part of a money grab, a surreptitious recording of some vulgar language, that’s never really been an issue for him.  
 

 

Non Disclosure agreements are why former employees don't speak out.  C'mon Lenny!!  I am sure the over 3500 lawsuits he is involved in are all money grabs too?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/everyone-signed-one-trump-is-aggressive-in-his-use-of-nondisclosure-agreements-even-in-government/2018/08/13/9d0315ba-9f15-11e8-93e3-24d1703d2a7a_story.html

 

From the article

Dozens of White House aides have signed NDAs in exchange for working for Trump, who has long relied on such agreements in his business career, according to current and former administration employees. But NDAs have not been widely used by past administrations outside the transition time between presidents, in part because most legal experts believe such agreements are not legally enforceable for public employees.

Copies of Trump NDAs obtained by The Washington Post or described by current and former aides lay out breathtakingly broad prohibitions on behavior and appear to be drawn heavily from similar contracts used in the past by the Trump Organization, the president’s family firm.

Under one agreement from the 2016 campaign, signers promised not to “demean or disparage publicly” Trump, his company or any member of his family — and also not to assist any other politician exploring a federal or state office.

An agreement circulated in the White House last year barred signers from sharing any information they had learned in the building, according to several aides who signed the document.

[3rdnlng]

So, a White House and administration chock full of Obamaites who proved they wanted to subvert everything Trump was doing were required to sign NDA's? WTF wouldn't require that? Thinking must be hard when you have so many different choices of strains for breakfast.

[Bob in Mich]

14 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I'm sorry I just can't even get past this part to read the rest of your post without you actually addressing it:

 

Trump is a self-made man?

 

The guy admitted himself that he got his start thanks to a $1 million loan from his father nearly half a century ago.

 

That's the number Trump, a consistent liar, has repeated himself he was given to start his business empire.

 

There's a high end report that he was actually given over $60 million at the time.

 

Self-made man?

 

C'mon man...

 

And once you dispense with that premise and realize that Trump is just ultimately "Old Money," how the hell do you NOT see that he's ABSOLUTELY part of that elite class that thinks he's above us?

In October of 2018 the NY Times did an extensive investigated piece on Fred Trump, his wealth, and how he transferred it to his heirs, in many cases avoiding taxes.  In today's dollars the total to Donald Trump came to over $400 million.  The NY times article is a pay for article but this free video summarizes

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxJE5H0hwk

Edited October 22, 2019 by Bob in Mich

[billsfan89]

12 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

What’s always been sort of fascinating about DJT to me is that with as brash as he is, with as many people as he dealt with, you would think former employees would be lined up for miles willing to talk about what a horrible human being he is having cheated/lied/screwed them while they worked for him.  The fact is that absent a few outliers who certainly might just be part of a money grab, a surreptitious recording of some vulgar language, that’s never really been an issue for him.  
 

As for being a self-made man, well, considering the totality of his life, I’m hard-pressed to not consider him self-made. He’s worth some variation of billions with a b, has survived and thrived in the commercial real estate market in NYC and beyond, had a successful television show and, oh yeah, defeated some of the most powerful people/political cabals on the planet to become THE most powerful person on the planet through sheer force of will.  A quick google search indicates that there have been an estimated 545,000,000 people living during the period of time commencing in 1776, and 44 men have served as President (as of today, no women have been elected but one was really, really popular). 
 

Amazing. 

 

If you live in the NYC Metro area you will hear a lot of horror stories about Trump. The two most common being his exploitation of Polish Immigrants (most of whom were illegal) and stiffing contractors. I knew personally two of my friends growing up dads who worked for construction companies that went bankrupt due to Trump not paying them out on a deal in the 1980's.

 

You also have the numerous sexual harassment complaints (although to be fair that is common for executives in that era) but yeah in NYC, Long Island, and New Jersey almost everyone knows him from his corrupt and shady business dealings as opposed to being a reality TV star. You don't have to go far to find a story of someone getting stiffed or screwed by Trump and these stories have been around the area well before Trump went Fox News conservative.

 

As far as how successful he actually is in business? I don't know, I think he was very good at building a brand but his actual real estate and casino dealings don't seem to be successful as even his dad had to buy millions of dollars of chips and not cash them to help float that operation.

Edited October 22, 2019 by billsfan89

[DC Tom]

11 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

If you live in the NYC Metro area you will hear a lot of horror stories about Trump. The two most common being his exploitation of Polish Immigrants (most of whom were illegal) and stiffing contractors. I knew personally two of my friends growing up dads who worked for construction companies that went bankrupt due to Trump not paying them out on a deal in the 1980's.

 

You also have the numerous sexual harassment complaints (although to be fair that is common for executives in that era) but yeah in NYC, Long Island, and New Jersey almost everyone knows him from his corrupt and shady business dealings as opposed to being a reality TV star. You don't have to go far to find a story of someone getting stiffed or screwed by Trump and these stories have been around the area well before Trump went Fox News conservative.

 

None of this is news to anyone who was paying attention in the 80s.  He's always, at best, been nothing more than a carnival barker.  "President Trump" used to be the punchline of jokes.

 

13 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

As far as how successful he actually is in business? I don't know, I think he was very good at building a brand but his actual real estate and casino dealings don't seem to be successful as even his dad had to buy millions of dollars of chips and not cash them to help float that operation.

 

Most of his fortune comes from selling his name - lots of "Trump" properties aren't owned by him, the developers just paid him a licensing fee to put his name on them. 

 

His business sense otherwise is...well, he went bankrupt running casinos, and that industry is a license to print money.  He's a marketing genius - as evidenced by him trading on his last name to make several billion dollars and to win a presidential election with people knowing he was a clown.  But otherwise, he's pretty pathetic.

[Bob in Mich]

Perhaps this whole Trump success illusion is tied to those that watched Trump on the Apprentice.  If one formed their impressions of Trump from that tv show, they appear to think he is a brilliant American success story.  I saw that show once but I suppose they didn't address how and why he kept going bankrupt in real life.

 

If one knew of him before the Apprentice show and formed their impressions based on years of NY reporting on multiple bankruptcies, lawsuits, scams, divorces, and affairs, they are less likely to believe he is suddenly a squeaky clean president being repeatedly wrongly accused.  I think I read that Trump, in the 2016 election won approximately 18% of the NY City votes.  They have known the guy for a long time there.

[row_33]

i subscribed to Spy Magazine from 1988 to when it closed up shop

 

Trump was one of a dozen NYC socialites they took endless pot shots at

 

all very amusing

 

never saw the TV show, have not watched more than 20 minutes combined in 20 years of "reality based" TV

 

don't spend too much worrying about Trump supporters, Bob, they couldn't care less about you

 

[3rdnlng]

28 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

Perhaps this whole Trump success illusion is tied to those that watched Trump on the Apprentice.  If one formed their impressions of Trump from that tv show, they appear to think he is a brilliant American success story.  I saw that show once but I suppose they didn't address how and why he kept going bankrupt in real life.

 

If one knew of him before the Apprentice show and formed their impressions based on years of NY reporting on multiple bankruptcies, lawsuits, scams, divorces, and affairs, they are less likely to believe he is suddenly a squeaky clean president being repeatedly wrongly accused.  I think I read that Trump, in the 2016 election won approximately 18% of the NY City votes.  They have known the guy for a long time there.

How does that 18% compare to McCain in 2008 or Romney in 2012? My guess is that they are all pretty close because the election in NYC was not about the person bur about party affiliation.

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Bob in Mich said:

In October of 2018 the NY Times did an extensive investigated piece on Fred Trump, his wealth, and how he transferred it to his heirs, in many cases avoiding taxes.  In today's dollars the total to Donald Trump came to over $400 million.  The NY times article is a pay for article but this free video summarizes

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxJE5H0hwk

 

Yep.

 

$1 million is just the very low end number that consistent liar Donald Trump has admitted he was given.

 

The actual number given to Trump in 1975 was reported by the Times as the $60+ million I brought up($1 million back then is indeed worth about $4 million today. Combination of a couple hours of yard work, some beers and mixing some triangulate research together at the end of a long day is a bad idea. My mistake)

 

The laugh that Trump is somehow a rags to riches story stands.

 

Daddy's money got him a loooOOnnnggg way over the years, not just in 1975.

Edited October 22, 2019 by transplantbillsfan

[Buffalo_Gal]

Ummm if I can turn a $1M "gift" into $1B (or $4B or $5B) my only question is ... where do I sign up?

How many of you have received a gift of $1000 and turned that money into $1M? Did you consider that doing it "on your own"? Or, by virtue of receiving a thousand dollars, did that success in turning it into a million dollars rest solely with the gifter? And, if you have not managed to multiply that $1000 gift by 1000 to turn it into a $1M via investments, hard work, and/or corporate opportunities, why not?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Bob in Mich said:

 

Non Disclosure agreements are why former employees don't speak out.  C'mon Lenny!!  I am sure the over 3500 lawsuits he is involved in are all money grabs too?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/everyone-signed-one-trump-is-aggressive-in-his-use-of-nondisclosure-agreements-even-in-government/2018/08/13/9d0315ba-9f15-11e8-93e3-24d1703d2a7a_story.html

 

From the article

Dozens of White House aides have signed NDAs in exchange for working for Trump, who has long relied on such agreements in his business career, according to current and former administration employees. But NDAs have not been widely used by past administrations outside the transition time between presidents, in part because most le NDAs have not been widely used by past administrations outside the transition time between presidents, in part because most legal experts believe such agreements are not legally enforceable for public employees.gal experts believe such agreements are not legally enforceable for public employees.

Copies of Trump NDAs obtained by The Washington Post or described by current and former aides lay out breathtakingly broad prohibitions on behavior and appear to be drawn heavily from similar contracts used in the past by the Trump Organization, the president’s family firm.

Under one agreement from the 2016 campaign, signers promised not to “demean or disparage publicly” Trump, his company or any member of his family — and also not to assist any other politician exploring a federal or state office.

An agreement circulated in the White House last year barred signers from sharing any information they had learned in the building, according to several aides who signed the document.

Oh for goodness sake Bob! 

 

He was 72 when elected, worked let's say 50 years give or take in a variety of professions, including hotel and property management, and you're link-a-dink-a-doiing an article about White House insiders?  

 

Side note about the article.  Inflammatory language like "breathtakingly broad" means literally nothing to me, the average guy on the street.  It means even less when used in context with this tidbit: 

 

But NDAs have not been widely used by past administrations outside the transition time between presidents, in part because most le NDAs have not been widely used by past administrations outside the transition time between presidents....

 

 

Do you think the journalist thought it unimportant to frame this better? NDAs are used during transition periods (though apparently unenforceable) , but some past administrations have used them?  Which ones, I wonder? 

 

 

Lawsuits are a part of life, my man. Maybe not in the Big Sky country of Michigan, but they happen. 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

3 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

If you live in the NYC Metro area you will hear a lot of horror stories about Trump. The two most common being his exploitation of Polish Immigrants (most of whom were illegal) and stiffing contractors. I knew personally two of my friends growing up dads who worked for construction companies that went bankrupt due to Trump not paying them out on a deal in the 1980's.

 

You also have the numerous sexual harassment complaints (although to be fair that is common for executives in that era) but yeah in NYC, Long Island, and New Jersey almost everyone knows him from his corrupt and shady business dealings as opposed to being a reality TV star. You don't have to go far to find a story of someone getting stiffed or screwed by Trump and these stories have been around the area well before Trump went Fox News conservative.

 

As far as how successful he actually is in business? I don't know, I think he was very good at building a brand but his actual real estate and casino dealings don't seem to be successful as even his dad had to buy millions of dollars of chips and not cash them to help float that operation.

Thanks for the feedback. I work in and around some small to medium contractors and developers in my area, and understand that sort of behavior is part of the process.   In fact I have heard that one of the more difficult entities to deal with is the State of NY. Notorious late player, hurry up and wait and "we'll get you your money  (maybe) when we get to it. 

 

I'm not under any illusion he's a saint, but imo none of the people that run for office are anywhere close to that standard. As for his accomplishments, again, he's The President.  The. 

 

Appreciate the response though! 

[transplantbillsfan]

57 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Ummm if I can turn a $1M "gift" into $1B (or $4B or $5B) my only question is ... where do I sign up?

How many of you have received a gift of $1000 and turned that money into $1M? Did you consider that doing it "on your own"? Or, by virtue of receiving a thousand dollars, did that success in turning it into a million dollars rest solely with the gifter? And, if you have not managed to multiply that $1000 gift by 1000 to turn it into a $1M via investments, hard work, and/or corporate opportunities, why not?

 

Except that $1 million was reportedly actually $60.7 million.

 

And over the span of the rest of his life, Trump's father gave his son over $400 million through various means.

 

Plus, the inflation rate in 1975 was 9.13%.  If you just invest that $1 million back then, you would have been a very, VERY rich woman... like part of the top 1% rich easily.

8 hours ago, 3rdnlng said:

1 million dollars in 1975 would be worth about $4.84 million in 2019. Where did you get the figure from (60 million) that you are quoting?

 

https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1000000&year=1975

 

You are talking about things that you have no knowledge of at all. Borrowing money and using leverage is partially how fortunes are made. Other favorable attributes such as hard work and good ideas along with good timing are necessary too. While bankruptcy has bad connotations with the general public, there's much more to it than you obviously know. You are in way over your head and would be better served learning rather than trying to teach others what you don't know. Your TDS is strong but your ignorance is giving it a run for its money. I shudder to think that you actually teach our children.

 

Conceded my mistake.

 

That's what you do when you make one.

 

Still waiting for you to concede yours from earlier in this thread in the spillover from our previous discussion.

 

I'm thinking with the sheer volume of personal attacks you dish out, your life must just suck.

 

For that, I'm truly, truly sorry.

 

Aloha! 

5 hours ago, snafu said:

 

$1,000,000 in 1976 isn’t $60,000,000 today. Not close.

There are surely a multitude of people who get a loan or an inheritance and squander it, no?  And there are surely a multitude of people who get a loan or an inheritance and buy perhaps one or two buildings with it and never do more to grow their holdings.

 

I’ll give you arrogant and self-centered. I even understand you “birthright” point.  But I think what trump did with a kickstart is a heluva lot more than sitting in a room and eating bon bons.  You going to rip on Roosevelt and Kennedy for coming from money, too? 

 

 

 

As you'll see above, I made a mistake on those numbers and I apologize.

 

But go back to the crux of the discussion, which started with a post by @Foxx and I followed with a question.

 

The point wasn't that Trump is a bad person because he came from money.  

[Gary M]

On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 1:37 PM, ExiledInIllinois said:

Fear.

 

It's because people grow old and scared.  Death approaches... They aren't young,  infallible.  They grow conservative.

 

Conservative = safe.

 

I just figured that when you are young you believe their BS, then as you grow older you see that everything they promise is a lie and/or a set up to promise you something else, nothing gets any better and they just get more and more power and money.

[Buffalo_Gal]

2 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Except that $1 million was reportedly actually $60.7 million.

 

And over the span of the rest of his life, Trump's father gave his son over $400 million through various means.

 

Plus, the inflation rate in 1975 was 9.13%.  If you just invest that $1 million back then, you would have been a very, VERY rich woman... like part of the top 1% rich easily.

That is a lot of moving the goalposts. The original "story" is $1M from his father which he used to earn a fortune. He was wealthier than his father when his dad passed away.

If you want to use an inflation calculator to base what $1M is worth today (which makes NO sense as the money was "gifted" in 1975), click here. Even going by the illogical supposition that $1M gifted in 1975 is somehow equal to $60M (I REALLY hope you do not teach math), here is the value in today's dollars: $1,000,000 in 1975 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $4,772,472.12 in 2019, a difference of $3,772,472.12 over 44 years. 

Why is this a non sequitur?  President Trump was worth $3B in 1985 according to Forbes (BTW, with the scrubbing and rewriting going on online to make him seem to have inherited his wealth, this wasn't easy to find). That means sometime within the those 10 years he took $1M and made it into $3B.

 

editing to add... I see you responded and recognized your mistake on the $1M in today's dollars. We crossed in the posting. ?

[row_33]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

That is a lot of moving the goalposts. The original "story" is $1M from his father which he used to earn a fortune. He was wealthier than his father when his dad passed away.

If you want to use an inflation calculator to base what $1M is worth today (which makes NO sense as the money was "gifted" in 1975), click here. Even going by the illogical supposition that $1M gifted in 1975 is somehow equal to $60M (I REALLY hope you do not teach math), here is the value in today's dollars: $1,000,000 in 1975 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $4,772,472.12 in 2019, a difference of $3,772,472.12 over 44 years. 

Why is this a non sequitur?  President Trump was worth $3B in 1985 according to Forbes (BTW, with the scrubbing and rewriting going on online to make him seem to have inherited his wealth, this wasn't easy to find). That means sometime within the those 10 years he took $1M and made it into $3B.

 

editing to add... I see you responded and recognized your mistake on the $1M in today's dollars. We crossed in the posting. ?

 

 

for transplant, just make it up, he doesn't care what you are saying on here

 

yeah.... the green cheese subsidy from his father, all imported from the moon, was worth 3 magic beans back in 1973.

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

That is a lot of moving the goalposts. The original "story" is $1M from his father which he used to earn a fortune. He was wealthier than his father when his dad passed away.

If you want to use an inflation calculator to base what $1M is worth today (which makes NO sense as the money was "gifted" in 1975), click here. Even going by the illogical supposition that $1M gifted in 1975 is somehow equal to $60M (I REALLY hope you do not teach math), here is the value in today's dollars: $1,000,000 in 1975 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $4,772,472.12 in 2019, a difference of $3,772,472.12 over 44 years. 

Why is this a non sequitur?  President Trump was worth $3B in 1985 according to Forbes (BTW, with the scrubbing and rewriting going on online to make him seem to have inherited his wealth, this wasn't easy to find). That means sometime within the those 10 years he took $1M and made it into $3B.

 

editing to add... I see you responded and recognized your mistake on the $1M in today's dollars. We crossed in the posting. ?

 

That was Trump's original self-proclaimed number, but reports are that over the span of his life and after his death, Fred Trump gave his son nearly half a billion dollars through various means, along with the correction I made of his initial gift being over $60 million rather than the $1 million he consistently claims he was given.

 

Bravo to the Donald for not pissing it all away! 

 

 

[Doc Brown]

3 hours ago, Bob in Mich said:

Perhaps this whole Trump success illusion is tied to those that watched Trump on the Apprentice.  If one formed their impressions of Trump from that tv show, they appear to think he is a brilliant American success story.  I saw that show once but I suppose they didn't address how and why he kept going bankrupt in real life.

 

If one knew of him before the Apprentice show and formed their impressions based on years of NY reporting on multiple bankruptcies, lawsuits, scams, divorces, and affairs, they are less likely to believe he is suddenly a squeaky clean president being repeatedly wrongly accused.  I think I read that Trump, in the 2016 election won approximately 18% of the NY City votes.  They have known the guy for a long time there.

The thing Trump understood throughout his bankruptcies is that if banks loans you an enormous amount of money it's they who are on the hook when you go broke.  That's why he was willing to take such huge risks.  Trump is good at marketing, reading/catering to a room (or a base of people in this case), and self promotion.  He's deficient in many other areas but those qualities are why he's the president.

On 10/20/2019 at 10:33 AM, westside2 said:

I've voted Democrat my whole life, except for this past election. I couldn't vote for Hillary after doing a bunch of research on her and her past. I'm happy so far with the job he's doing despite the witch hunt. 

This is definitely not the democratic party that I supported all my life. I don't think I'll vote for a Democrat again as long as the current "leaders" of the party are still in charge.

My first instinct when someone online says I voted Democrat my whole life is to assume they've voted Republican their whole life.  Yes, because the party was so much better off under Bill Clinton and Tom Foley.

[SoCal Deek]

I can never figure out this Trump Has Money  line of commentary.  It’s not 2016 anymore! The man’s been in office for three years. What  negative impact has Trumps money had on your life? Answer: no impact all. Next!

[3rdnlng]

36 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

The thing Trump understood throughout his bankruptcies is that if banks loans you an enormous amount of money it's they who are on the hook when you go broke.  That's why he was willing to take such huge risks.  Trump is good at marketing, reading/catering to a room (or a base of people in this case), and self promotion.  He's deficient in many other areas but those qualities are why he's the president.

 

Commercial type real estate loans either have a personal guarantee or no personal guarantee. Usually if the loans are given to a corporation or a limited partnership they will have no personal guarantee if the collateral is sufficient to secure the loan. This allows a developer to do projects that might be a little more risky than they might otherwise do. For example, Trump needed a loan to do a 100 million dollar condo project. Projections were good that he could get a return of 20% but union strikes and a jump in steel prices caused the project costs to go up and he was over budget. He had put up a 5 million dollar building as extra collateral for the project. Because of the extra costs he needed an extra 20 million to do the project. The lender was already 100 million into an unfinished project and had only a 5 million dollar building and an unfinished project to fall back on. Trump has the lender by the balls. He then proposes that the lender gives him 20 million more but reduces the interest rate on the entire 120 million by 2%. This gets the lender back mostly whole, Trump with as good of a deal as he initially planned and people in the business bitching about how Trump's project would have failed if the lender hadn't bailed him out.

 

Trump had a reputation for getting projects done on time and on or under budget. Some projects do get screwed up and are just part of being in the development business. When that happened he knew how to use leverage to get lenders to bend to his will. There's another thing that's been thrown around by the TDS people and that is bankruptcy. If they can't state what kind of bankruptcy it is then they don't knowshit about the actual specifics that they are trying to disparage Trump on.

[billsfan89]

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Thanks for the feedback. I work in and around some small to medium contractors and developers in my area, and understand that sort of behavior is part of the process.   In fact I have heard that one of the more difficult entities to deal with is the State of NY. Notorious late player, hurry up and wait and "we'll get you your money  (maybe) when we get to it. 

 

I'm not under any illusion he's a saint, but imo none of the people that run for office are anywhere close to that standard. As for his accomplishments, again, he's The President.  The. 

 

Appreciate the response though! 

 

Your original point was that out of all the people Trump has worked with that no one has ever said bad things about him. That isn't true at all was my point. By the early 90's Trump had developed such a bad reputation for stiffing contractors that no one would work with him (one of the contributing factors to his bankruptcies was not getting cheap labor to do his work was done for essentially below cost.) There are numerous examples of Trump being hated and vilified for how he ran his businesses. There is also a lot of hearsay about Trump working with organized crime in the 1980's and 1990's using his casinos and other properties to launder money (which isn't shocking as that is super common in construction.) But I will say that that is just rumors but a heavily circulated one. 

 

I also think that there are degrees of things. Almost everyone to run for president since Jimmy Carter has not been an ethical person (The only exceptions to this I would say off the top of my head would be Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders say what you will about their policies but they are the only people in the Capital where lobbyists didn't bother with them.) I ask myself how bad is their corruption and are they a competent person? Dick Cheney is an insanely corrupt person but I will give him this he knows how to get things done (Mainly awful things.) 

 

Trump is neither ethical nor competent. He is haphazard and ill thought out. He reeks of corruption and someone looking to enrich his business interests. He constantly shoots himself in the foot with bad decision making and doesn't seem to have a plan on how to do anything. I don't get what people see in this guy other than he pushes Republican policies. 

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Your original point was that out of all the people Trump has worked with that no one has ever said bad things about him. That isn't true at all was my point. By the early 90's Trump had developed such a bad reputation for stiffing contractors that no one would work with him (one of the contributing factors to his bankruptcies was not getting cheap labor to do his work was done for essentially below cost.) There are numerous examples of Trump being hated and vilified for how he ran his businesses. There is also a lot of hearsay about Trump working with organized crime in the 1980's and 1990's using his casinos and other properties to launder money (which isn't shocking as that is super common in construction.) But I will say that that is just rumors but a heavily circulated one. 

 

I also think that there are degrees of things. Almost everyone to run for president since Jimmy Carter has not been an ethical person (The only exceptions to this I would say off the top of my head would be Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders say what you will about their policies but they are the only people in the Capital where lobbyists didn't bother with them.) I ask myself how bad is their corruption and are they a competent person? Dick Cheney is an insanely corrupt person but I will give him this he knows how to get things done (Mainly awful things.) 

 

Trump is neither ethical nor competent. He is haphazard and ill thought out. He reeks of corruption and someone looking to enrich his business interests. He constantly shoots himself in the foot with bad decision making and doesn't seem to have a plan on how to do anything. I don't get what people see in this guy other than he pushes Republican policies. 

And no American banks would lend him money, either. That’s why he turned to corrupt Deutche Bank for money. 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

8 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

And no American banks would lend him money, either. That’s why he turned to corrupt Deutche Bank for money. 

 

 

And this impacted your life how exactly?

[row_33]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

And this impacted your life how exactly?

70,000 hours of self-righteous complaining and voicing of resentment for Trump’s 8 years

 

 

[snafu]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Bravo to the Donald for not pissing it all away! 

 

Especially since he's a hateful ass.

That certainly boosts my opinion of his success.  He's had to sail into his own wind all these years.

[row_33]

Just now, snafu said:

 

Especially since he's a hateful ass.

That certainly boosts my opinion of his success.  He's had to sail into his own wind all these years.

five more to go

[3rdnlng]

21 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Especially since he's a hateful ass.

That certainly boosts my opinion of his success.  He's had to sail into his own wind all these years.

Trump the Grump is to blame for 3.5% unemployment and an average of $6000 more  in everyone's pocket since he gained office. Bush & Obama were able to keep tax payments lower by providing more frugal increases of $400 and $1000 during their respective 8 years. I don't know what we'll do if he secures the border and we have to lay off police because MS-13 is no longer coming here.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

46 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Your original point was that out of all the people Trump has worked with that no one has ever said bad things about him. That isn't true at all was my point. By the early 90's Trump had developed such a bad reputation for stiffing contractors that no one would work with him (one of the contributing factors to his bankruptcies was not getting cheap labor to do his work was done for essentially below cost.) There are numerous examples of Trump being hated and vilified for how he ran his businesses. There is also a lot of hearsay about Trump working with organized crime in the 1980's and 1990's using his casinos and other properties to launder money (which isn't shocking as that is super common in construction.) But I will say that that is just rumors but a heavily circulated one. 

 

I also think that there are degrees of things. Almost everyone to run for president since Jimmy Carter has not been an ethical person (The only exceptions to this I would say off the top of my head would be Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders say what you will about their policies but they are the only people in the Capital where lobbyists didn't bother with them.) I ask myself how bad is their corruption and are they a competent person? Dick Cheney is an insanely corrupt person but I will give him this he knows how to get things done (Mainly awful things.) 

 

Trump is neither ethical nor competent. He is haphazard and ill thought out. He reeks of corruption and someone looking to enrich his business interests. He constantly shoots himself in the foot with bad decision making and doesn't seem to have a plan on how to do anything. I don't get what people see in this guy other than he pushes Republican policies. 

No sir, my original point dealt with Trump's accomplishments up to and including becoming the most powerful person in the world. 

 

I unleashed the liberal kracken when I mentioned the part about people who worked for him, thinking primarily about his inner extended circle, employees of Trump International and so on. With due respect to you and your opinions, anecdotal stories of Trump being the evil robber baron in a sea of God's creatures means little to me and moves me not at all.  I don't swim in the murky waters of commerical real estate/unions/developers/contractors etc in NYC, but I'd bet you a wooden nickel that I'd think most of the business conducted has the stench of corruption about it. Same with the litigation, same with the allegations, and honestly the same with action by the govt as it relates to Trump and his business when viewed from the prism of the presidency.  Hell, the state of NY has rules to f%$# over the most well-intentioned landlords and business owners on the books as we speak. I live that daily. 

 

If Bernie Sanders is your true north, have at it.  In my opinion, he's a cartoon character who's about as full of crap as any politician ever was.  He's the millionaire faux socialist speaking to the little people about xyz while he's living a separate life altogether. He's what happens when young idealogues rebelling against common sense meet a crazy old dude with a funny accent who can be fawningly paraded on late night TV.  He's also the product of becoming a ward of the state (employment-wise) later in life and vomiting bull#### later on.  I'd sooner vote for Barry Sanders than I would Bernie. 

 

As for Jimmy Carter, he was honest----honestly a disaster but no need to revisit the political landscape long since dead and buried. 

 

To summarize. Trump, no angel. Trump, untruthful. Trump, you no likely. Trump fo/mo for me. 

[3rdnlng]

12 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

No sir, my original point dealt with Trump's accomplishments up to and including becoming the most powerful person in the world. 

 

I unleashed the liberal kracken when I mentioned the part about people who worked for him, thinking primarily about his inner extended circle, employees of Trump International and so on. With due respect to you and your opinions, anecdotal stories of Trump being the evil robber baron in a sea of God's creatures means little to me and moves me not at all.  I don't swim in the murky waters of commerical real estate/unions/developers/contractors etc in NYC, but I'd bet you a wooden nickel that I'd think most of the business conducted has the stench of corruption about it. Same with the litigation, same with the allegations, and honestly the same with action by the govt as it relates to Trump and his business when viewed from the prism of the presidency.  Hell, the state of NY has rules to f%$# over the most well-intentioned landlords and business owners on the books as we speak. I live that daily. 

 

If Bernie Sanders is your true north, have at it.  In my opinion, he's a cartoon character who's about as full of crap as any politician ever was.  He's the millionaire faux socialist speaking to the little people about xyz while he's living a separate life altogether. He's what happens when young idealogues rebelling against common sense meet a crazy old dude with a funny accent who can be fawningly paraded on late night TV.  He's also the product of becoming a ward of the state (employment-wise) later in life and vomiting bull#### later on.  I'd sooner vote for Barry Sanders than I would Bernie. 

 

As for Jimmy Carter, he was honest----honestly a disaster but no need to revisit the political landscape long since dead and buried. 

 

To summarize. Trump, no angel. Trump, untruthful. Trump, you no likely. Trump fo/mo for me. 

I just remembered something about Bernie's wife and a loan her college took out while she was president of it. Haven't heard much of that.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

11 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

I just remembered something about Bernie's wife and a loan her college took out while she was president of it. Haven't heard much of that.

I left that out because I'm certain Honest Bernz had nothing to do with his wife and allegations of fraud. I also left out the significant gift card Vermonters are offering to folks to relocate to the (Actually Really) Green Mountain state to repopulate the with new tax stakeholders.  Honest Bernz is likely  mortified that his beloved socialitlst republic is going all cap-cap-capitalist and just decided to start slinging the $10k to come. 

[TH3]

On 10/18/2019 at 6:09 PM, Foxx said:

something that has been bothering me and in the back of my mind for some time now.

 

i am curious do you guys/gals ( @Tiberius, @Bob in Mich, @ALF, @Gary Busey, (@John Adams, @Benjamin Franklin, @BeginnersMind), @Crayola64, @ExiledInIllinois, @transplantbillsfan etc... apologies to anyone i may have missed, 'twas not intended) read the sourced materials/articles here? or do you get your information elsewhere and just assume that anything posted here is mainly partisan hogwash, so you omit it from your information gathering? if it is the latter, do you read/watch/gather sourced material that is outside of your biases?

 

yes, yes i know that twitter is the end of the universe. however, many of them contain links to sourced material.

 

just an honest question, i am curious.

 

TYIA for your responses.

First.....you ask the progressives a question......check your first 20 responses...who replied and in what manner? Tells you all you need to know about this place....

Secondly.....do you consider the sourced material linked by the regulars to be non partisan?

[Foxx]

19 minutes ago, TH3 said:

First.....you ask the progressives a question......check your first 20 responses...who replied and in what manner? Tells you all you need to know about this place....

Secondly.....do you consider the sourced material linked by the regulars to be non partisan?

some material yes, some material no.

 

if you know how to use discernment, they all can have a form of value.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Foxx

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

No sir, my original point dealt with Trump's accomplishments up to and including becoming the most powerful person in the world. 

 

I unleashed the liberal kracken when I mentioned the part about people who worked for him, thinking primarily about his inner extended circle, employees of Trump International and so on. With due respect to you and your opinions, anecdotal stories of Trump being the evil robber baron in a sea of God's creatures means little to me and moves me not at all.  I don't swim in the murky waters of commerical real estate/unions/developers/contractors etc in NYC, but I'd bet you a wooden nickel that I'd think most of the business conducted has the stench of corruption about it. Same with the litigation, same with the allegations, and honestly the same with action by the govt as it relates to Trump and his business when viewed from the prism of the presidency.  Hell, the state of NY has rules to f%$# over the most well-intentioned landlords and business owners on the books as we speak. I live that daily. 

 

If Bernie Sanders is your true north, have at it.  In my opinion, he's a cartoon character who's about as full of crap as any politician ever was.  He's the millionaire faux socialist speaking to the little people about xyz while he's living a separate life altogether. He's what happens when young idealogues rebelling against common sense meet a crazy old dude with a funny accent who can be fawningly paraded on late night TV.  He's also the product of becoming a ward of the state (employment-wise) later in life and vomiting bull#### later on.  I'd sooner vote for Barry Sanders than I would Bernie. 

 

As for Jimmy Carter, he was honest----honestly a disaster but no need to revisit the political landscape long since dead and buried. 

 

To summarize. Trump, no angel. Trump, untruthful. Trump, you no likely. Trump fo/mo for me. 

 

It's not just anecdotal stories of contractors getting stiffed, Trump has had numerous lawsuits from various contracts complaining about him not fulfilling his obligations, not to mention the other lawsuits about defrauding customers many of which he settled out of court on. So this isn't just rumor and innuendo that he isn't an honest or ethical businessman there is both a paper trail and the known word about him. Even a lot of people who used to be fairly high up in his inner circle have commented that he isn't an ethical business person. 

 

When Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul were both in the capital those two were the only two Congresspeople (and then Bernie became a senator) who lobbyist were told not to waste their time on. I don't think anyone is perfect (And I don't get this idea that him being a millionaire is hypocritical since he has never said no one should be successful, the only thing he has stated is that it is kind of crazy billionaires exist at the same time as massive childhood poverty and crumbling infrastructure.) But as far as someone who actually believes in an ideology and isn't swayed by big monied interest give me the guy that lobbyist hate and who is funded by small dollar donations. Hate his politics fine, I don't like Ron Paul's economic agenda at all but I can at least respect the fact that although he isn't perfect he is someone who actually believes is something. 

 

I get that you don't care that he is honest or ethical. Jimmy Carter was an honest ethical person but he wasn't good at getting stuff done. But to pretend that Trump is honest or less corrupt is just a fairytale. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by billsfan89

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

It's not just anecdotal stories of contractors getting stiffed, Trump has had numerous lawsuits from various contracts complaining about him not fulfilling his obligations, not to mention the other lawsuits about defrauding customers many of which he settled out of court on. So this isn't just rumor and innuendo that he isn't an honest or ethical businessman there is both a paper trail and the known word about him. Even a lot of people who used to be fairly high up in his inner circle have commented that he isn't an ethical business person. 

 

When Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul were both in the capital those two were the only two Congresspeople (and then Bernie became a senator) who lobbyist were told not to waste their time on. I don't think anyone is perfect (And I don't get this idea that him being a millionaire is hypocritical since he has never said no one should be successful, the only thing he has stated is that it is kind of crazy billionaires exist at the same time as massive childhood poverty and crumbling infrastructure.) But as far as someone who actually believes in an ideology and isn't swayed by big monied interest give me the guy that lobbyist hate and who is funded by small dollar donations. Hate his politics fine, I don't like Ron Paul's economic agenda at all but I can at least respect the fact that although he isn't perfect he is someone who actually believes is something. 

 

I get that you don't care that he is honest or ethical. Jimmy Carter was an honest ethical person but he wasn't good at getting stuff done. But to pretend that Trump is honest or less corrupt is just a fairytale. 

I’m not sure what you’re looking to accomplish here.  I believe that you believe what you believe.  I believe that you believe that in order, Jimmy Carter is an ethical and honest person (maybe the most ethical ever), that Sanders and Paul are honest politicians.  I believe you believe that it’s incumbent on me to respect the annointed because you see things the way they do.  
 

I think that’s a reflection of your inability to accept the opinions of those that hold different views.  For instance, I think your assessment of Crazy Uncle Bernie and his heartwrenching assessment of billionaires equating to childhood poverty is a great campaign slogan for simple-minded people. This is just me, of course, but with $3trillion+ running through the federal tax coffers maybe Bernie should stfu and explain why he and people like him are comfortable with waste/corruption/fraud/pay for play/benefits and the like that skims the tax dollar to a tax nickel by the time it leave Washington. But yeah, Bernies going to tackle childhood poverty by, uh, billionaire stuff. That’s before I even get to his tax plan, which says a whole lot more about skinning the middle class than it does about Messrs Bezos, Gates, Buffet, Trump and those goobers from Google. Sanders is one of the biggest posers in the race.

 

Here’s the kicker:  I believe paying tax is indeed the patriotic obligation of a citizen.  I would pay more than my current “fair share” if I felt it would go to good use, or be spent even remotely akin to “wisely”.  As it stands, I do my part, give to charitable causes that appeal to me, and just try to keep moving in spite of, you know, the billionaires stealing food from babies in West Virginny.  
 

Anyway, Trump is bad, you no likely. I think Trump fo/mo. 
 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

On 10/18/2019 at 6:09 PM, Foxx said:

something that has been bothering me and in the back of my mind for some time now.

 

i am curious do you guys/gals ( @Tiberius, @Bob in Mich, @ALF, @Gary Busey, (@John Adams, @Benjamin Franklin, @BeginnersMind), @Crayola64, @ExiledInIllinois, @transplantbillsfan etc... apologies to anyone i may have missed, 'twas not intended) read the sourced materials/articles here? or do you get your information elsewhere and just assume that anything posted here is mainly partisan hogwash, so you omit it from your information gathering? if it is the latter, do you read/watch/gather sourced material that is outside of your biases?

 

yes, yes i know that twitter is the end of the universe. however, many of them contain links to sourced material.

 

just an honest question, i am curious.

 

TYIA for your responses.

 

 

sniff sniff  

I feel so left out 

[row_33]

2 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

 

sniff sniff  

I feel so left out 

 

you aren't THAT far gone.... 

 

if i reply to you directly  ?

 

 

[DC Tom]

3 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

 

sniff sniff  

I feel so left out 

 

Would you feel better if I called you an idiot?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

52 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Would you feel better if I called you an idiot?

 

always  LOL 

[DC Tom]

Just now, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

always  LOL 

 

Well then I'm not going to, because if you want to be called an idiot you deserve to feel bad, because you're an idiot...

 

...oh, wait...

 

Goddammit. 

[section122]

On 10/18/2019 at 6:09 PM, Foxx said:

something that has been bothering me and in the back of my mind for some time now.

 

i am curious do you guys/gals ( @Tiberius, @Bob in Mich, @ALF, @Gary Busey, (@John Adams, @Benjamin Franklin, @BeginnersMind), @Crayola64, @ExiledInIllinois, @transplantbillsfan etc... apologies to anyone i may have missed, 'twas not intended) read the sourced materials/articles here? or do you get your information elsewhere and just assume that anything posted here is mainly partisan hogwash, so you omit it from your information gathering? if it is the latter, do you read/watch/gather sourced material that is outside of your biases?

 

yes, yes i know that twitter is the end of the universe. however, many of them contain links to sourced material.

 

just an honest question, i am curious.

 

TYIA for your responses.

 

I wasn't tagged and I believe I am considered a "drive by poster" here but in reality I lurk in all forums I participate in not just this one so this post may not mean much.

 

I look and see (or try to) all sides of an issue.  However this really isn't a great place for discussion (personal opinion).  It is very very hard right wing in here.  So there is not really a chance to have open and honest dialogue.  Look back through the first 2 pages of responses to this question and the first page of topic listings.  It is an echo chamber here so it does actually serve a purpose of challenging my (mostly) left leaning beliefs.  That said anyone who uses the phrase libtard or snowflake automatically is dismissed by me.  Name calling is childish and shows that they aren't actually willing to have a conversation.  Reddit r/politics has the same issues on the other side.   

 

@Deranged Rhino  usually tries to source his claims so I will read a lot of them even if they are dripping with right wing bias.  I am okay with that as it does challenge my beliefs and shows other people's feelings and how they got there.  @B-Man articles generally get skipped as they are so clearly slanted I don't really care to read them.  I do that with far left articles too.  I don't even browse r/politics anymore as it isn't worthwhile.  After I read articles I generally will check out the source to see how credible it is.  Twitter posters mostly get dismissed by me as they almost always have a clear agenda whether right or left leaning.

 

I'm not a fan of Trump.  He repeatedly violates the emoluments clause and profits from the office of president.  He pulled out of the g7 at Doral (righfully) but vacations at mar a lago and recently Pence staying at his property in Ireland are poor looks at the least as they directly benefit him.  His comments to 4 elected officials to go back where they came from was embarrassing to me.  He isn't the devil though.  I'm also not a fan of the democratic party.  What they did during the last election to prop Hillary up at the expense of all other candidates (specifically Bernie) was also embarrassing.  I voted 3rd party last election hoping that we could get another party on the ballot. 

 

I don't know when politics turned into sports where you can only be on one side of the aisle came from but I hate it.   At the end of the day my life under a Trump presidency isn't much different than it was under Obama or Bush.  I have too much in my own life to worry about to let Trump or Hillary or whoever live rent free in my head.  Trump will get his 4 more years and then a dem will get 8 as has happened every cycle during my life with the exception of Bush I.  I will continue to look for candidates who align with my ideas and hope they get elected.  Currently Medicare for all is the topic I am most passionate about and I pay very close attention to every candidate's thoughts on it.  I have done a lot of research on it and am a huge proponent of it.  Any candidate that doesn't support it will not get my vote.

 

So count at least myself as someone who tries to educate themselves about both sides and reads articles from both sides.  However also count me as someone who hates the whole damn system and thinks it is a bunch of people serving their own interests jointly while sowing discord among us peasants.  Enjoy this excerpt that some of you dyed in red Repubs might not like from the wiki of Donald Trump's political positions: 

Trump registered as a Republican in Manhattan in 1987 and since that time has changed his party affiliation five times. In 1999, Trump changed his party affiliation to the Independence Party of New York. In August 2001, Trump changed his party affiliation to Democratic. In September 2009, Trump changed his party affiliation back to the Republican Party. In December 2011, Trump changed to "no party affiliation" (independent). In April 2012, Trump again returned to the Republican Party.[3]

In a 2004 interview, Trump told CNN's Wolf Blitzer: "In many cases, I probably identify more as Democrat," explaining: "It just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans. Now, it shouldn't be that way. But if you go back, I mean it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats...But certainly we had some very good economies under Democrats, as well as Republicans. But we've had some pretty bad disaster under the Republicans."[4] In a July 2015 interview, Trump said that he has a broad range of political positions and that "I identify with some things as a Democrat."[3]