Why the Zay Hate?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

That could very well be an issue of trust.

 

I think this is a fair take.  For whatever reason Allen has quickly built trust with Beasley and with Brown that he can make tight contested throws and they’ll (usually) bring it in.   He doesn’t seem to have built the same trust or rapport with Zay Jones even though he’s been throwing to him longer and Zay does often appear open (enough).  One wonders why, and whether Zay is working on it - offering to come out early or stay late and take extra passes etc.

 

Perhaps this last game, where he did target Zay and Zay did not fulfill WR101 (if I can’t catch it, I’ll make sure the guy in the wrong jersey can’t either) offers a clue.

[WideRightRevenge]

Let me be clear .. I thought the Jones pick would be great .. having watched him at ECU (my daughter goes there) and all time FBS reception leader ... well I was wrong.

 

The link below shows he's the worse in catch % for the year and he was bottom 20 last year ... enough is enough.  The lack of going for the ball vs. the two interceptions last week confirmed it for me.  The WR should have a better idea of ball location than the DB.  Rather see Foster or the Duke at this stage.  He has been given sufficient time .. he's a role player as Joe B said .. not a game changer.

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving#catch-percentage

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

12 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

thanks for posting. quinn also has a long thread looking at Zay’s targets from all 4 games from just a couple hours ago. Unfortunately most have made up their minds about the guy and just dismiss this analysis and go on claiming he’s the worst player in the history of the Bills and other such nonsense.

 

There is no doubt Zay has underachieved and has had some critical drops.     But the issue I find I have to "argue" is getting factual #'s.  

 

First, by NFL rules.  What is a drop?

Does it have to touch their hands (wrist or arm)  to be called a drop?

 

Second  by NFL rules.  What is a target?

Is a target a catchable ball, or something in the general vacinity? 

 

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think this is a fair take.  For whatever reason Allen has quickly built trust with Beasley and with Brown that he can make tight contested throws and they’ll (usually) bring it in.   He doesn’t seem to have built the same trust or rapport with Zay Jones even though he’s been throwing to him longer and Zay does often appear open (enough).  One wonders why, and whether Zay is working on it - offering to come out early or stay late and take extra passes etc.

 

Perhaps this last game, where he did target Zay and Zay did not fulfill WR101 (if I can’t catch it, I’ll make sure the guy in the wrong jersey can’t either) offers a clue.

 

The GM and HC bring in talent like Beasley and Brown (for starters - pardon the pun).  I would think the coaches would say ....  there's the 2 guys that we brought in to keep drives alive.     Josh  had better build chemistry, and fast. 

 

 

For what crap little it is worth, Zay was the leading WR last season.  

Is it - use under performing Zay or the shiny new toys!? 

Edited October 2, 2019 by SlimShady'sGhost

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

2011 Drops Through Week 3

This standard says drops are "incomplete passes where the receiver SHOULD have caught the pass with ORDINARY effort." Basically, we're talking about blatant drops, not the ones where your old man leans over and says anything that grazed the receiver anywhere was a drop in his day.

What constitutes a dropped pass? - NFL Nation- ESPN

 

https://www.espn.com › blog › nflnation › post › what-constitutes-a-dropped...

 

I've been saying this for years ...  the intended receiver should have caught the pass with ordinary effort."

Edited October 2, 2019 by SlimShady'sGhost

[ALF]

Zay was great in college , some of his targets were uncatchable against NE*.  That D was very good to say the least.

 

I haven't given up on him yet.

[TroutDog]

From the Athletic today:

 

https://theathletic.com/1258181/2019/10/01/bills-all-22-review-dissecting-josh-allens-day-and-why-theres-more-to-zay-jones-than-meets-the-eye/

 

Quote:

 

“Jones must learn to make plays when he’s given the opportunity in non-perfect situations. He has shown glimpses of it in the past, but not consistently enough. At the same time, it isn’t as though he’s a useless player on the field. Jones has been targeted 18 times in 2019 and has seven receptions to show for it. According to Sports Info Solutions, only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them. Here’s another stat you didn’t see coming: According to NextGen Stats, Jones has a higher average rate of separation (2.7) than John Brown does (2.3) through the first four weeks.

 

Jones is a role player on an offense trying to find its way, not an impact player. Despite being a disappointment considering where the Bills drafted him, he does add value to the offense.”

 

Also:

 

”At the same time, Jones is the best blocking receiver on the roster and it isn’t particularly close.”

Edited October 2, 2019 by TroutDog

[Pete]

2 hours ago, ALF said:

Zay was great in college , some of his targets were uncatchable against NE*.  That D was very good to say the least.

 

I haven't given up on him yet.

So was Tim Tebow 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

20 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

From the Athletic today:

 

https://theathletic.com/1258181/2019/10/01/bills-all-22-review-dissecting-josh-allens-day-and-why-theres-more-to-zay-jones-than-meets-the-eye/

 

Quote:

 

“Jones must learn to make plays when he’s given the opportunity in non-perfect situations. He has shown glimpses of it in the past, but not consistently enough. At the same time, it isn’t as though he’s a useless player on the field. Jones has been targeted 18 times in 2019 and has seven receptions to show for it. According to Sports Info Solutions, only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them. Here’s another stat you didn’t see coming: According to NextGen Stats, Jones has a higher average rate of separation (2.7) than John Brown does (2.3) through the first four weeks.

 

Jones is a role player on an offense trying to find its way, not an impact player. Despite being a disappointment considering where the Bills drafted him, he does add value to the offense.”

 

Also:

 

”At the same time, Jones is the best blocking receiver on the roster and it isn’t particularly close.”

 

only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them

[Kelly the Dog]

21 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them

“Dropped passes” is a nearly worthless stat if you only count blatant ordinary catches, which they admit to. It’s all but saying all the passes each of us here should catch and not a starting NFL WR. What constitutes a drop to the average fan is wildly subjective. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

15 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

“Dropped passes” is a nearly worthless stat if you only count blatant ordinary catches, which they admit to. It’s all but saying all the passes each of us here should catch and not a starting NFL WR. What constitutes a drop to the average fan is wildly subjective. 

 

I agree. 

 

So is "targeted" balls.    A throw away with any player in the area is labeled as "targeted" 

 

If only they actually collected throw away count stats.  

 

 

Again I'm not excusing Zay of dropsies....  

 

I'm focusing in on the actuality of the situation.  

[Irv]

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Dude, I’ve lost count of the times you’ve posted a mash-up with alligators or sticks of butter or what have you on Zay’s hands, but it’s become what I expect from you in a discussion of Zay or even a non-discussion of Zay where you bring it in.  It’s tired.  It no longer has the humor of novelty.  Let it go.

 

I took graphic arts in college.  My teacher told me I had potential.  You've squashed my dreams. 

 

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them

 

But, there were more catchable balls than they are saying.  The TD drop against the Giants was catchable.  The failed scoop pass against the Pats was catchable, even watched a backup TE do it for Mason Rudolph on MNF.  Just to name a couple.  

 

One can’t just say the perfect throws or easy throws only count as catchable.  He’s a professional NFL WR and he needs to make some of these catches too, not just ones that hit him in the chest (which he’s also dropped before).  I mean both of those were critical moments in games.  

 

Thats one of the bigger issues with Zay, he doesn’t make tough catches and doesn’t come through in those big moments.  Any WR in the NFL can catch 7 out 8 passes thrown in an easy to catch spot, especially since all of them to Zay were short to

mid range throws.  What separates one WR from the next is consistency and making more of those tough catches.  

 

But the biggest problem is clearly Zay and Allen also have no apparent chemistry.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

But, there were more catchable balls than they are saying.  The TD drop against the Giants was catchable.  The failed scoop pass against the Pats was catchable, even watched a backup TE do it for Mason Rudolph on MNF.  Just to name a couple.  

 

One can’t just say the perfect throws or easy throws only count as catchable.  He’s a professional NFL WR and he needs to make some of these catches too, not just ones that hit him in the chest (which he’s also dropped before).  I mean both of those were critical moments in games.  

 

Thats one of the bigger issues with Zay, he doesn’t make tough catches and doesn’t come through in those big moments.  Any WR in the NFL can catch 7 out 8 passes thrown in an easy to catch spot, especially since all of them to Zay were short to

mid range throws.  What separates one WR from the next is consistency and making more of those tough catches.  

 

But the biggest problem is clearly Zay and Allen also have no apparent chemistry.  

 

Ok ? I’m fine with that. 

 

Of the 10 claimed uncatchable lets claim half were drops.  

 

8+5=12. 7 of 12 isn’t that horrible is it?

 

 

For Zay 58% is great 

 

Yes I know.  Still not good enough 

[Alphadawg7]

44 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Ok ? I’m fine with that. 

 

Of the 10 claimed uncatchable lets claim half were drops.  

 

8+5=12. 7 of 12 isn’t that horrible is it?

 

 

For Zay 58% is great 

 

Yes I know.  Still not good enough 

 

I hear ya, but the bigger question for a lot of us is could someone like Duke do more if given the same reps given the apparent lack of chemistry between Allen and any receiver not named Cole or Brown.

 

Basically would his better hands, size and larger catch radius be of more value to Allen at this point? 

 

Honestly, Zay’s 7 rec for 69 yards over 4 games isn’t hard to replace.  So there isn’t a lot of risk to give Duke a shot at this point.  And they don’t even have to get rid of Zay to get Duke on the active 53 either.

 

Im also hoping Foster find his way back to relevancy too, I mean he is easily the most disappointing story of 2019 so far.

 

I just tremble at the thought of either Cole or Brown getting hurt and missing time right now.  

 

PS:  Can someone please tell Daboll to freaking get Knox more involved early and often moving forward already as well?  

[Success]

He’s been alright - he’s actually made some pretty crucial catches in the wins

 

Fans often judge players more harshly when they’re picked in a higher round.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

43 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

PS:  Can someone please tell Daboll to freaking get Knox more involved early and often moving forward already as well?

What was it with Roman?  

 

He had too many plays? 

 

Packages used too much and some not enough.  

 

Too many mistakes being made and having to sort that out.  Seems a bit too much.  

[Nihilarian]

Cole Beasley 36 targets, 24 receptions 66.7 catch percentage

John Brown 34 targets, 23 receptions 67.6 catch percentage

Zay Jones 18 targets, 7 receptions 38.9 catch percentage---This is Kelvin Benjamin territory who last season was 37.1 before being cut. 

 

Let's see if this changes with Matt Barkley in there this week as Zay Jones led the team in targets last season with 102 targets, 56 receptions 54.9 catch percentage.

 

I don't know whats going on with Robert Foster but either put him on IR or play him.  Put Zay on IR and bring up Duke Williams who might be slower but he is taller and will fight for those contested balls. JMHO

Edited October 3, 2019 by Nihilarian

[Rocket94]

The Robert Foster situation is mysterious. How can a guy who really flashed and played well last year regress to such a point and just vanish? The Bills need to make a decision on Foster. As for Zay Jones. A year from now, Jones may still be a Bill and some will ask, why all of the hate!

Edited October 3, 2019 by Rocket94

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

9 hours ago, Rocket94 said:

The Robert Foster situation is mysterious. How can a guy who really flashed and played well last year regress to such a point and just vanish? The Bills need to make a decision on Foster. As for Zay Jones. A year from now, Jones may still be a Bill and some will ask, why all of the hate!

 

Rationalization #1 .. he's injured

Rationalization#2 ..  he's not that good either

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

12 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Cole Beasley 36 targets, 24 receptions 66.7 catch percentage

John Brown 34 targets, 23 receptions 67.6 catch percentage

Zay Jones 18 targets, 7 receptions 38.9 catch percentage---This is Kelvin Benjamin territory who last season was 37.1 before being cut. 

 

Let's see if this changes with Matt Barkley in there this week as Zay Jones led the team in targets last season with 102 targets, 56 receptions 54.9 catch percentage.

 

I don't know whats going on with Robert Foster but either put him on IR or play him.  Put Zay on IR and bring up Duke Williams who might be slower but he is taller and will fight for those contested balls. JMHO

 

Lets not act like these are all drops or something.  Allen has missed him by a mile quite a few times.

[Big Gun]

On 9/30/2019 at 9:36 AM, CuddyDark said:

Bills fans always pick on guy to target their anger and it's Zay for now. If I'm Zay I play the season out and get to a team with a pocket QB like Robert Woods and become a very good number 2 receiver.

Zay isn't half the WR Woods is. 

[RussellDopeland]

Zay Jones is Josh Reed without the talent. But at least Reed was the third option in offenses that featured Eric Moulds and Peerless Price. Jones is the third option behind John Brown and Cole Beasley?!!! If you're to find out as to whether or not Allen is the answer at the QB position, he needs talented skill players surrounding him. This WR crew leaves a whole hell of a lot to be desired- and Jones is the least gifted of the entire unit. But at least he blocks well....

[Royale with Cheese]

I hate him because he robbed my place when I was out one night.  Then he came over the next morning and said "heard you got robbed".  

[CuddyDark]

1 hour ago, RussellDopeland said:

Zay Jones is Josh Reed without the talent. But at least Reed was the third option in offenses that featured Eric Moulds and Peerless Price. Jones is the third option behind John Brown and Cole Beasley?!!! If you're to find out as to whether or not Allen is the answer at the QB position, he needs talented skill players surrounding him. This WR crew leaves a whole hell of a lot to be desired- and Jones is the least gifted of the entire unit. But at least he blocks well....

Most great QBs have less talented WR. Every time some fan  says it's the WR, its always a team with a poor Star QB. That is a QB who should be a star but for some reason he's not. Fans want to baby him so they blame the WRs. Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Tom Brady types never complain about the WRs.

[Nihilarian]

4 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

Lets not act like these are all drops or something.  Allen has missed him by a mile quite a few times.

I agree with this.  Like I said, lets see what happens with Barkley in there. 

 

Cole Beasley came from Dallas with a 74.7 catch percentage with was best for their WRs. In Buffalo he is at 66.7%.

 

Still, 38.9 for Zay is bad at less then half his targets. Last year with him being the main target he still barely caught more then half his targets. Meanwhile McCoy was 73.9

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 10/2/2019 at 3:08 PM, Irv said:

 

I took graphic arts in college.  My teacher told me I had potential.  You've squashed my dreams. 

 

 

That's me, Crusher of Dreams.  Perhaps I should change my screen name?

[Alphadawg7]

 

[TuelTime]

They might be able to get a conditional 7th round pick in 2025.

[Kelly the Dog]

11 minutes ago, TuelTime said:

They might be able to get a conditional 7th round pick in 2025.

Yep. In the two round NBA draft. 

[Irv]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's me, Crusher of Dreams.  Perhaps I should change my screen name?

 

Just for the record it was armadillos not alligators.  So there.  

[Dopey]

17 minutes ago, Irv said:

 

Just for the record it was armadillos not alligators.  So there.  

Irv was awesome! Just had to put that out there.

[HappyDays]

On 10/1/2019 at 10:30 PM, Rob's House said:

Somewhat OT, but worth noting: Most of the fan base thought Woods was a JAG when he was here.

 

That is absolutely not true. I'll admit I thought Woods was overpaid by LA, and I was wrong, but I always thought he was very good. Better than Watkins for sure. We weren't stuck trying to make excuses for him for 3 years.

[Blank Stare]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

That is absolutely not true. I'll admit I thought Woods was overpaid by LA, and I was wrong, but I always thought he was very good. Better than Watkins for sure. We weren't stuck trying to make excuses for him for 3 years.

It’s incredible Sammy is only 26 years old. Feel

like he’s been in the league 10 years now.

 

Same with woods for that matter. He’s only 27.  Crazy. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by TheProcess

[Rob's House]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

That is absolutely not true. I'll admit I thought Woods was overpaid by LA, and I was wrong, but I always thought he was very good. Better than Watkins for sure. We weren't stuck trying to make excuses for him for 3 years.

I don't know what board you were reading, but people were constantly complaining that he wasn't a competent #2 and we needed to upgrade from him. It wasn't everyone, but it was a very popular position at the time.

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, TheProcess said:

It’s incredible Sammy is only 26 years old. Feel

like he’s been in the league 10 years now. 

 

Sammy Watkins in a nutshell:

 

 

[JoPar_v2]

1 hour ago, Rob's House said:

I don't know what board you were reading, but people were constantly complaining that he wasn't a competent #2 and we needed to upgrade from him. It wasn't everyone, but it was a very popular position at the time.

This can’t be stated better - there was a LARGE contingent of posters that constantly dogged Woods, for everything. Of course nowadays the haters have developed some convenient selective amnesia. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Rob's House said:

I don't know what board you were reading, but people were constantly complaining that he wasn't a competent #2 and we needed to upgrade from him. It wasn't everyone, but it was a very popular position at the time.

 

I guess I don't remember that at all. I think that was still the BBMB days for me, maybe here people didn't like him?

 

But regardless there is no comparison between Woods's first 3 years and Zay's first 3 years. Woods made a bunch of tough catches and was always dependable. Zay has like one tough catch that I can remember in his entire career here (TD against the Dolphins last year that Allen threw inaccurately). He sometimes shows basic competence but he isn't dependable and he doesn't make plays happen. To be a top 3 WR you occasionally need to make something out of nothing. He has done that one time that I can remember. Far more often than that he misses the easy plays. I think Zay is a decent #4 and I don't think he'll ever grow beyond that. I expect him to bounce around the league for most of his career.

 

Compare him with Josh Allen. Allen misses too many easy plays at this point in his career but he also makes several incredible plays happen all on his own in every game. He shows potential to be a legitimate franchise QB. Zay has never shown the potential to be anything but a depth WR.

Edited October 4, 2019 by HappyDays

[Thurman#1]

On 9/30/2019 at 10:33 PM, Virgil said:

Can someone please tell me what Zay did, or didn’t do, yesterday to call for the hate?  I see people saying cut him immediately.  
 

I can’t remember a play with him where I thought he was the reason we sucked.  The guy isn’t even out there that much.  
 

Overall, he hasn’t lived up to his draft status and physical traits, but I don’t see how yesterday was the deal breaker.  
 

What am I missing?

 

 

Basically it comes largely as an urge to throw as much blame as humanly possible away from Josh Allen. People think that if he's not to blame maybe it'll somehow make him become a franchise QB.

 

Scapegoating satisfies many deep human needs and Zay has been scapegoated since very early on, for good reason that first year, not quite so much afterwards.

 

It also has to do with Zay's draft spot.

 

Nor were people thrilled about the hotel window incident or missing most of two training camps with injury.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Thurman#1

[HappyDays]

13 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Basically it comes largely as an urge to throw as much blame as humanly possible away from Josh Allen. People think that if he's not to blame maybe it'll somehow make him become a franchise QB.

 

I'm not just talking about this past game. His whole career has been mediocre. Even accounting for the QBs he's had, he just doesn't contribute anything special on the field. When Barkley came in he had a critical drop that should have been a 1st down. You can live with an occasional drop if he offers something else, but instead he's just a fairly competent receiver that misses too many easy plays. It is also fair to say Allen missed him a few times against the Patriots. And Allen, by far, was the reason our offense stalled on Sunday. But that doesn't let Zay off the hook for 3 seasons of below average play.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sammy Watkins in a nutshell:

 

 

I personally do not think you can fault a guy when in games other players on his team are catching 30-50-80 yard touchdowns and your team is consistently scoring. It does not, in any way, mean you are not doing your job or disappearing. The decoy idea is a big laugh around here but I defy anyone to watch the Bills, Rams, or Cheifs games in total in All-22 and argue that safeties are not almost always aware of Watkins and defenses go out of their way to stop him.