Pats can keep their rings; I'll take the Bills

[Punching Bag]

On 9/11/2019 at 5:26 PM, Nester said:

Well, we had OJ

 

lets call it a tie

 

OJ's issue were post Bills when he became a Californian.

On 9/11/2019 at 5:27 PM, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

There is a reason that the rest of the country hates the Patriots. You have hit on pretty much all of them.

I think he may be batting 50%.  There are a lot more.

On 9/11/2019 at 5:38 PM, BullBuchanan said:

Yea, I dunno. I mean I hate the pats, but I do spend an awful lot of time wishing I was born in Boston, so I could be one of those obnoxious fans with every world championship.

 

You would fit in perfectly.  Just be their version of Scott Law.

[Punching Bag]

On 9/11/2019 at 6:21 PM, Chris66 said:

Keep your morals. Ill take the rings.

 

Their bandwagon is not full yet.

[Shaw66]

15 minutes ago, Chris66 said:

Shaw I think your looking at this the wrong way. Its a sport only in the sense that the business is competition, but if you ask 32 owners they will tell you its a business first and like any successfull business its sole purpose is to make money. In this business winning makes money.

No, Chris, you're not listening to me.  I'm not looking at it the wrong way.  

 

I get that it's a business.   And I get that businesses can operate any way they want.  And I get that a hard-hearted, take-no-prisoners approach may be the most effective to succeed.   

 

What I said is that I, Shaw66, like my team because it puts some limits on itself.   The Bills' approach, or so it seems to me, is to seek to have the success the Patriots have had on the field while AT THE SAME TIME, treating people the way people should be treated, fairly and with respect.   The Bills want everyone in the organization to operate with a higher moral standard than simply winner-take-all, no-holds-barred.   

 

I like rooting for a team that stands for winning AND something more.   

 

It's not about works best, it's not about whether the Pats are free to behave as they have.   It's about how I feel about my team.   Several other fans have posted that they feel the same way.   That's cool.  Several other people have stated that they don't feel that way and they don't care about the standards the Bills live by.   That's fine with me, too. 

 

Based on how some people have responded, it seems they think I'm trying to impose my standards on them.  I'm not.  It isn't an argument.   I simply stated how I feel about the Patriots, that they are amoral.  I didn't say they don't deserve their success.  Beyond that, I said I prefer having a coach and owner who hold themselves to a higher standard.     

 

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agreed with a lot in your post but I particularly agreed with this. The Patriots win because Belichick is smarter and Brady is better than the rest of the league put together. And in the final two games of last season the played the best young QB in the league and then the best young HC in the league. They beat them both. 

 

Rather than moaning about it or trying to discredit or devalue any of what the Patriots have done Bills fans should be spending their time looking hard at the decisions McDermott and Beane are making and asking whether they are decisions that put the Bills in position to take over as the AFC's dominant force. I think we are on the right path... but there is still some way to go. 

Gunner, I agree with you.   It's amazing how people have jumped to some different conclusion.  I did no "moaning" and I didn't not try to "discredit" or "devalue" anything the Patriots have accomplished.    I said the Patriots are amoral and the Bills' management attempts to operate in accordance with a higher moral standard.  I like that about the Bills.   

[Moose]

Your thread is an interesting one, Shaw, generating some thoughtful discussion. I'd like to add one more thing about the Patriots that seems to generate some of the "hate" they attract: consistently favorable calls and "non-calls" by the referees, especially in crucial games at critical times. More that a few game balls could deservedly go to the Zebras!

[Shaw66]

8 minutes ago, Moose said:

Your thread is an interesting one, Shaw, generating some thoughtful discussion. I'd like to add one more thing about the Patriots that seems to generate some of the "hate" they attract: consistently favorable calls and "non-calls" by the referees, especially in crucial games at critical times. More that a few game balls could deservedly go to the Zebras!

Thanks, Moose.   I've been interested in it.   I really only wrote the OP to express my view of the culture that seems to prevail with the Patriots  I wasn't trying to condemn them, although I will admit to having some feeling of superiority, because I'd like to think that I hold myself to a higher moral standard than the standard Kraft maintains.  I didn't know what to expect.   I thought the thread might die a quiet death after a few hundred views and a a couple dozen responses.  I wasn't trying to start a debate, or even a discussion. 

 

The responses and the discussion have been very interesting.   The intensity of the responses, particularly.  Almost as though people took personally what I said.   That has really surprised me.   As I posted earlier, I really appreciated that people were pointing out why my facts were wrong.   I'm not sure I agree in all cases, but so many people laid into me about that that I'm sure they're correct about a lot of it.  But as I said then, I'm sure I'm correct about the more general proposition, that the current Patriots regime is less focused on whether what they do is fair or the right thing than most of the league, and certainly less so than the current Bills regime.    

 

I've also been surprised that people thought I was saying the Patriots don't deserve what they've earned.   Surprised because I'm one the biggest Patriot admirers around here.   I think Belichick is a genius, light years beyond anyone the league has ever seen, and I think Brady has grown to become the perfect quarterback in the best system in the league.   They did it with brains and hard work.  All I'm saying is that they - and their owner - just don't give a damn about anyone else, which is their prerogative..  

[Jrb1979]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I think you and a lot of other people jumped to the wrong conclusion about what I said.

 

I completely and totally agree with what I quoted above.  I never said and never I tended to say their success came because they cheated lied or were immoral.  I think what they have accomplished is incredible.  I think McD is trying to copy a lot of it and I'm fine with that.  

 

What I said is that they are amoral, and I said I don't like that.  They aren't gentlemen and they aren't sportsmen, and I dont like that.  They don't care about treating opponents and other people fairly; they just care about winning. I dont like that

 

I think if you asked McD about this and he talked candidly, he would tell you that his objective is to build a successful team that has bgh higher goals than the Pat's.  It would be a team that honors and respects all people, doesn't lie and doesn't cheat.  I think he would say that winning at all costs is NOT what he wants.

 

I know that makes it harder; winning without morality is easier.  McD just has a higher standard. I like that and it makes me proud of my team.

 

I think it was clear I was talking about the current regimes, not prior ownership or management.  So I'm not interested in all of your pre-McD arguments. 

Sorry but in a league that you said is hard to win in, winning should come at all costs. Its not the Rockpile days, lunch pail type teams don't win consistently in this league. 

[LabattBlue]

I'll take the rings.  Anyone who chooses otherwise, has not chosen wisely.

[Shaw66]

15 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

Sorry but in a league that you said is hard to win in, winning should come at all costs.

I'd love to be able to ask McDermott about this.  I don't think he'd agree with you.  I think Belichick has done things to win that McDermott, a a matter of principle, would not do.

[Gugny]

46 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'd love to be able to ask McDermott about this.  I don't think he'd agree with you.  I think Belichick has done things to win that McDermott, a a matter of principle, would not do.

 

And I think McDermott, and others like him, will win a lot fewer games than Belichick as a result.

[Jrb1979]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

And I think McDermott, and others like him, will win a lot fewer games than Belichick as a result.

I agree with you. I wonder if a lot of what Shaw66 others say about the Pats is cause the hardcore Bills fanbase is an older group by average. They come from an era of bring your lunch pail to work. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Jrb1979 said:

I agree with you. I wonder if a lot of what Shaw66 others say about the Pats is cause the hardcore Bills fanbase is an older group by average. They come from an era of bring your lunch pail to work. 

That’s me.  I’m with Shaw.

[LSHMEAB]

I don't know that it's entirely generational. The Packers had this coach a couple years back named Vince something or other. "Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing." The fact that he borrowed it from someone doesn't change the fact that he said and meant it.

 

The bottom line is this is a violent, big boy sport; it's not a character contest. I'll take the rings.

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

I agree with you. I wonder if a lot of what Shaw66 others say about the Pats is cause the hardcore Bills fanbase is an older group by average. They come from an era of bring your lunch pail to work. 

 

What kills me is how much McDermott stresses his faith.  Is there a bigger collective group of absolute scum than the catholic priesthood?  Having devotion to that faith while simultaneously stressing the importance of "character," is a tad hypocritical IMO.

[Jrb1979]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

That’s me.  I’m with Shaw.

Today's NFL doesn't run that way. Winning is the only thing that matters. The Pats have shown that to be the case. I could less about how much faith or how nice the player is. I want to see wins.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Jrb1979

[Figster]

17 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

And I think McDermott, and others like him, will win a lot fewer games than Belichick as a result.

Myself personally, without the living legend of Tom Brady, the Pats cheating ways/ bad character sinks the ship.

 

I realize B B is a great coach, but when the boatload of NFL playground bully's lose Brady, arguably the best QB that every played the the game,

 

The dynasty and everything that goes with it is over in my humble opinion Gu. 

 

No way would I ever trade the Bills or our history for anything ...

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Figster said:

Myself personally, without the living legend of Tom Brady, the Pats cheating ways/ bad character sinks the ship.

 

I realize B B is a great coach, but when the boatload of NFL playground bully's lose Brady, arguably the best QB that every played the the game,

 

The dynasty and everything that goes with it is over in my humble opinion Gu. 

 

No way would I ever trade the Bills or our history for anything ...

 

I agree.  One or the other would not/will not equal dominance.  They needed both and they were lucky enough to have them.

[oldmanfan]

26 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

Today's NFL doesn't run that way. Winning is the only thing that matters. The Pats have shown that to be the case. I could less about how much faith or how nice the player is. I want to see wins.

Then we’re different.

[Shaw66]

28 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

What kills me is how much McDermott stresses his faith.  

Does he?   I think that's the impression that some fans have, but I don't hear it in him.  That is, I hear him saying things that suggest he wants people with a strong moral compass, but I don't here a dogmatic Christian message from him, not any requirement that his players be God-fearing, chiurch-going Christians.   Maybe I'm just missing it.  

15 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I agree.  One or the other would not/will not equal dominance.  They needed both and they were lucky enough to have them.

I've always thought it's Belichick.   I don't think Brady would have been Brady without Belichick, but if Brady hadn't come along, Belichick would have developed himself another QB.  

[oldmanfan]

36 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

What kills me is how much McDermott stresses his faith.  Is there a bigger collective group of absolute scum than the catholic priesthood?  Having devotion to that faith while simultaneously stressing the importance of "character," is a tad hypocritical IMO.

Is he Catholic?  Just looked it up, he’s Presbyterian.  So the comment about Catholic priests is not really relevant.

Edited September 14, 2019 by oldmanfan

[Just Joshin']

I am very competitive and want to win at everything.  I say push it to the limit without cheating or being unethical.  At the end of the day this is a game and each person must decide where that line is for them.

 

I am not surprised that there are some that see no line.  This is how politics has become and the country is worse for the new paradigm.

[Victory Formation]

42 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

What kills me is how much McDermott stresses his faith.  Is there a bigger collective group of absolute scum than the catholic priesthood?  Having devotion to that faith while simultaneously stressing the importance of "character," is a tad hypocritical IMO.

I agree. In all fairness though many born agains are against the Catholic Church.

[Shaw66]

54 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

The Packers had this coach a couple years back named Vince something or other. "Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing."

Bill Curry played for Lombardi.   In his book, Bill Curry said this about Lombardi:

 

Quote

Vince Lombardi's approach to football was modeled on the fundamentals of his deep and profound Roman Catholic faith. Every day he reminded us of the priorities that must guide us: "Your religion, your family, and the Green Bay Packers will be your priorities as long as you are here! And in that order!"

 

He was from a different era, and he would have had NO patience with guys who abuse women.  None.  He could barely stand Max McGee, because he drank too much.  

 

When Lombardi was in his football world, you're right, winning was the only thing.   But when morality was concerned, he left the football world and found guidance elsewhere.  He had his priorities straight. 

[Iron Maiden]

Would Bills fans take BB and Brady 20 years ago...WITH spygate and deflagate.....and 6 Championships....all those AFCCGs......all those division wins.....I seriously think I would, without a doubt, take it....the NFL is not there to give us a moral guideline in life....that's not what I'm looking for from the league....I want my team to win. period.....plus, I really don't think the " cheating " was such a big deal....deflategate was an absolute joke...and spygate was what?, 12 years ago?......and they have been actually a better team since.....Can you guys imagine Buffalo with 6 rings.....that sounds like such a foreign thought....

[Shaw66]

26 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said:

Would Bills fans take BB and Brady 20 years ago...WITH spygate and deflagate.....and 6 Championships....all those AFCCGs......all those division wins.....I seriously think I would, without a doubt, take it....the NFL is not there to give us a moral guideline in life....that's not what I'm looking for from the league....I want my team to win. period.....plus, I really don't think the " cheating " was such a big deal....deflategate was an absolute joke...and spygate was what?, 12 years ago?......and they have been actually a better team since.....Can you guys imagine Buffalo with 6 rings.....that sounds like such a foreign thought....

Now, that's a tough question.  That forces me to put my money where my mouth is.   Would I take the package - Kraft, Belichick, Brady, the rings and the bad stuff?   

 

It's sort of like would you sell your sell to the devil in order to get what you'd want.   

 

Twenty years ago, I might have done it.   I don't have 20 years left; for me, just one Super Bowl will do the trick.   Today, I wouldn't do it.  

 

Ralph WIlson was a lousy owner, in terms of running a football team.  But I will love him forever for doing the right thing and voting AGAINST the Browns' move to Baltimore.  It was about more than the money for him, and I was proud to have an owner like that.  

[stuvian]

can I get a side order of dirty success with my main course of loyalty during the decade of fail?

[CommonCents]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Now, that's a tough question.  That forces me to put my money where my mouth is.   Would I take the package - Kraft, Belichick, Brady, the rings and the bad stuff?   

 

It's sort of like would you sell your sell to the devil in order to get what you'd want.   

 

Twenty years ago, I might have done it.   I don't have 20 years left; for me, just one Super Bowl will do the trick.   Today, I wouldn't do it.  

 

Ralph WIlson was a lousy owner, in terms of running a football team.  But I will love him forever for doing the right thing and voting AGAINST the Browns' move to Baltimore.  It was about more than the money for him, and I was proud to have an owner like that.  

I don’t cheer for known scum bags but I think this whole take is a stretch. Do you think all

the NE fans wanted a coach who cheats, players who kill people or beat their wives? Think back to the first SB? The Pats were the underdog story. 

 

How can any fan say they wouldn’t want that? After that win you are along for the ride, you might not like everything about the coach/players but from a guy who defends a lot of things Bills, you’d sure be defending the Pats and their flaws.

 

 

[TroutDog]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think you and a lot of other people jumped to the wrong conclusion about what I said.

 

I completely and totally agree with what I quoted above.  I never said and never I tended to say their success came because they cheated lied or were immoral.  I think what they have accomplished is incredible.  I think McD is trying to copy a lot of it and I'm fine with that.  

 

What I said is that they are amoral, and I said I don't like that.  They aren't gentlemen and they aren't sportsmen, and I dont like that.  They don't care about treating opponents and other people fairly; they just care about winning. I dont like that

 

I think if you asked McD about this and he talked candidly, he would tell you that his objective is to build a successful team that has bgh higher goals than the Pat's.  It would be a team that honors and respects all people, doesn't lie and doesn't cheat.  I think he would say that winning at all costs is NOT what he wants.

 

I know that makes it harder; winning without morality is easier.  McD just has a higher standard. I like that and it makes me proud of my team.

 

I think it was clear I was talking about the current regimes, not prior ownership or management.  So I'm not interested in all of your pre-McD arguments. 

Based on this statement, I agree with you, Shaw. I’ve vacillated on whether to respond or not. 

 

I have zero desire to root for an organization that openly believes cheating is ok (which the  Pats have proven they are). 

 

I would much rather cheer for a team that is headed by an upstanding GM, HC and owner. I would NEVER want asterisks next to our wins. 

 

I am a disabled veteran and learned early in life that honor and commitment don’t come cheap. Is there a chance we’ll have to wait a few more years to get to the promised land doing it the honest way? Sure...and I’m ok waiting for it and screaming my head off every game, regardless of the game having meaning late in the season or not. 

 

I was at SBXXV and it broke my heart. But doing it the right way is still of the utmost importance. 

 

The Pats do indeed have the GOAT QB and HC but they still wanted MORE and were willing to do anything to go a step further. No thanks. 

 

Thank you for starting this dialogue. It’s been a good conversation. ? 

Edited September 14, 2019 by TroutDog

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, TroutDog said:

Based on this statement, I agree with you, Shaw. I’ve vacillated on whether to respond or not. 

 

I have zero desire to root for an organization that openly believes cheating is ok (which the  Pats have proven they are). 

 

I would much rather cheer for a team that is headed by an upstanding GM, HC and owner. I would NEVER want asterisks next to our wins. 

 

I am a disabled veteran and learned early in life that honor and commitment don’t come cheap. Is there a chance we’ll have to wait a few more years to get to the promised land doing it the honest way? Sure...and I’m ok waiting for it and screaming my head off every game, regardless of the game having meaning late in the season or not. 

 

I was at SBXXV and it broke my heart. But doing it the right way is still of the utmost importance. 

 

The Pats do indeed have the GOAT QB and HC but they still wanted MORE and were willing to do anything to go a step further. No thanks. 

 

Thank you for starting this dialogue. It’s been a good conversation. ? 

I was at XXV too.  

 

Honor and commitment.  Yup.

[Rocket94]

I will take the Bills any day. This is what I signed on for in 1972. No matter where I live, the sun rises and sets with the Bills.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Rocket94

[BillsVet]

10 hours ago, Gugny said:

What kills me is how much McDermott stresses his faith.  Is there a bigger collective group of absolute scum than the catholic priesthood?  Having devotion to that faith while simultaneously stressing the importance of "character," is a tad hypocritical IMO.

 

Ordinarily, I would let this pass coming from someone as uneducated about Catholicism as you.  And, I would answer this in PPP, but you went ahead and initiated this here. 

 

If you're going to mischaracterize the entire Catholic priesthood I would caution you.  Form whatever opinion you want, but I am Catholic and I've personally known dozens of outstanding Catholic priests.  I've seen them in the hospital rooms with the sick and dying.  I've seen them at Catholic funerals comforting families.  I've seen them at weddings joining newly married couples.  I've seen them on Sundays with homilies that make you check who you are.  I've been there with them receiving help during particularly difficult times I experienced.  I've seen them in school teaching religion and latin.  And I've seen them in so many other places.  You make it sound as though all are predators in waiting and that's simply not true.    

 

The greatest men I know are Catholic priests.    

 

I'm not the biggest McD fan, but being a Christian is not a problem and he's definitely not out proselytizing on the sidelines or behind the scenes.      

[US Egg]

Enough of this soapy my team has more character charade.

 

In the annals of NFL history it will be Bills who ?....and those Patriots were something else !

 

Stop fooling yourself, the Pats are the cornerstone of what an NFL franchise should be.

 

[Figster]

31 minutes ago, I am the egg man said:

Enough of this soapy my team has more character charade.

 

In the annals of NFL history it will be Bills who ?....and those Patriots were something else !

 

Stop fooling yourself, the Pats are the cornerstone of what an NFL franchise should be.

 

I think its nice to have a team full of players that for the most part are men of good character.  

 

A B caused one team to give up high draft picks for his services. Didn't like where he landed so did what he had to do to get released. Probably knowing all along the Pats would sign him.  Myself personally, A B should be blackballed from the league IMO.

 

To me this sets a bad example for other players. Act up, refuse to play, get rewarded. Maybe even win another Championship.

 

Tell me how this helps other franchises in the NFL. 

[Nelius]

Ehhhhh I'l take the rings, but I get it.

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

Awww crap, I love my Bills, but I think it'd be really sweet if the Pegula's put about every last scrap of savings they had into bettering the planet.  

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

I'm not the biggest McD fan, but being a Christian is not a problem and he's definitely not out proselytizing on the sidelines or behind the scenes.      

 

Whereas I am a massive McDermott fan but whenever he talks about faith (and I do agree he doesn't do it as much as some here would have you think) it makes me cringe. 

[Gugny]

7 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Ordinarily, I would let this pass coming from someone as uneducated about Catholicism as you.  And, I would answer this in PPP, but you went ahead and initiated this here. 

 

If you're going to mischaracterize the entire Catholic priesthood I would caution you.  Form whatever opinion you want, but I am Catholic and I've personally known dozens of outstanding Catholic priests.  I've seen them in the hospital rooms with the sick and dying.  I've seen them at Catholic funerals comforting families.  I've seen them at weddings joining newly married couples.  I've seen them on Sundays with homilies that make you check who you are.  I've been there with them receiving help during particularly difficult times I experienced.  I've seen them in school teaching religion and latin.  And I've seen them in so many other places.  You make it sound as though all are predators in waiting and that's simply not true.    

 

The greatest men I know are Catholic priests.    

 

I'm not the biggest McD fan, but being a Christian is not a problem and he's definitely not out proselytizing on the sidelines or behind the scenes.      

 

https://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Ex-priest-off-to-prison-with-a-grin-1016033.php - there's a story about the priest who confirmed me as catholic and also raped more than one of my friends.  I'm Catholic and I've seen everyting you have.  Don't think you have a leg up on me (or anyone, for that matter).  I'll leave it at that, so this thread doesn't get shut down.

 

McDermott's faith being considered while building the roster has been reported on/discussed multiple times.  It's relevant, which is why I brought it up.  If you want to pound your chest about how proud you are to be a catholic, YOU take that crap to PPP.  Otherwise, leave it alone.  Thanks.

[Augie]

The Bills have real fans. How many “Patriot fans” would jump off the bandwagon after a couple of 5 or 6 win seasons? How about a 17 year playoff drought? That “bandwagon” could be the size of a golf cart! 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

The Bills have real fans. How many “Patriot fans” would jump off the bandwagon after a couple of 5 or 6 win seasons? How about a 17 year playoff drought? That “bandwagon” could be the size of a golf cart! 

Don't get me started on Patriot fans.  I live amongst them.   I think more highly of the Patriots than I do of their fans. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

The Bills have real fans. How many “Patriot fans” would jump off the bandwagon after a couple of 5 or 6 win seasons? How about a 17 year playoff drought? That “bandwagon” could be the size of a golf cart! 

Augie, Don't kid yourself. The Bills lost a generation of fans with their generation of ineptitude. It's not unusual for a fan base to lose some steam after more than a generation of historical level of winning. That shouldn't be surprising. I remember when the exciting Kelly era was coming to a close and we hosting a he playoff against Jacksonville. There were plenty of empty seats against Jacksonville in a playoff game that we lost. 

[dubs]

On 9/11/2019 at 5:26 PM, RiotAct said:

I think most Patriots fans revel in that somewhat bad-boy, “us-against-the-world” mentality.  

 

What’s a Patriots fan?  You mean those people that started showing up to game around 2001 and will stop showing up when Brady retires?