John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[Bill from NYC]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 12:28 PM, SoTier said:

 

If it's "fluff", how can it be "very, very depressing" -- unless you secretly fear I'm right?

Actually, this is a fair question.

[LSHMEAB]

On 6/27/2019 at 12:58 PM, mannc said:

The Bills’ coaching and QB play in the early 70s was the worst in the history of the franchise, if not the history of the entire league.

I mean, I'll have to take your word for it since it was before my time. I'd have to assume the last decade plus list of coach's and QB's would give them a run for their money.

Edited June 30, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[Cripple Creek]

On 6/26/2019 at 5:48 PM, Shaw66 said:

You didn't ask me, but I never understood it.  I try to understand the logic in movies that they make, and one reason I like McBeane is that they seem to have good reasons for doing things.   This one I never understood.

 

Watkins may have been less than a great team player, but he wasn't a cancer.  He just seemed not to realize his potential. 

 

I always say it's better to keep good talent a year too long than to give up on talent a year too early, so I would have exercised the option and tried to get him to be the guy we all hoped he would be.  

 

Turns out that wouldn't have helped much, because he wasn't stellar for either of the next two years and would have left in free agency.  Still, I thought he was worth the continuing investment. 

What would you have realized at the end of that option year?

 

What did Beane realize?

On 6/27/2019 at 2:12 PM, reddogblitz said:

 

Yeah, well benching Flutie in the playoff game is complaint worthy FOREVER IMHO.

 

You can pry my cold dead fingers off that complaint.

Flutie was shot. Finished. Used up. A noodle.  If you don't get that, you don't get football.

[Shaw66]

14 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

What would you have realized at the end of that option year?

 

What did Beane realize?

In the case of Watkins, having kept him wouldn't have worked out, at least based one what we've seen out of him.  He just hasn't become the performer everyone expected. 

 

But the fact that he wouldn't have worked out doesn't change my mind about what to do with talent.  I think coaching is more important talent, but that doesn't mean talent is unimportant.  Especially top talent.  It's hard to duplicate.  So I think when you have a guy who has special talent, a Watkins or a Dareus) but who hasn't accomplished what you want, especially when he's in his early 20s, the smart move is to keep him too long rather give up on him too early.  Marshawn Lynch is a perfect example.  You hate to have had a talent like that on your roster and have let him go, only to watch him be a true star someplace else.  It's worth to keep four guys like Lynch and Watkins for a year or two longer than you might keep someone else, because one of those guys is going to turn out to be someone really special.  The three who don't work are only going to be taking up the roster of some journeyman, so it doesn't cost much to keep them.  It costs a lot to lose a Lynch. 

 

So I would have kept Watkins.  McDermott did that with Dareus, although not for very long.   He kept him because Dareus was such a special talent that McDermott had to find out whether he could get Dareus to be the kind of team player and leader McDermott wanted.  When he was sure Dareus wasn't going to be that guy, McD let him go.  I would have done the same thing, with Watkins for a full season.  

 

[mannc]

31 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I mean, I'll have to take your word for it since it was before my time. I'd have to assume the last decade plus list of coach's and QB's would give them a run for their money.

I know it was a different era, but go look at the Bills’ QB stats the year OJ rams for 2003 yards.   There was a Monday night game against Pittsburgh where he ran for almost 300 yards and they completed TWO passes for about 20 yards.  2-16 passing, I believe.  And until Knox got hired, the coaching was even worse.  They essentially refused to play OJ his first three years in the league.

[Mr. WEO]

Craziest long thread ever.  Started as AP's usual  ass kissing OBD and now.....Flutie v. Johnson at 92 pages.

 

Must. Get. To. 100!

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Craziest long thread ever.  Started as AP's usual  ass kissing OBD and now.....Flutie v. Johnson at 92 pages.

 

Must. Get. To. 100!

It’s one of the best threads of the offseason...lotta good football discussion.  Look at some of the other nonsense threads on the board right now...

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Craziest long thread ever.  Started as AP's usual  ass kissing OBD and now.....Flutie v. Johnson at 92 pages.

 

Must. Get. To. 100!

When does the Kemp vs Lamonica thread start? Or can it be an appendage to this waning tread? 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

It’s one of the best threads of the offseason...lotta good football discussion.  Look at some of the other nonsense threads on the board right now...

 

 

i don't know....lotta good discussion happening over in that Andy Reid thread....lol

[Augie]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

i don't know....lotta good discussion happening over in that Andy Reid thread....lol

 

...and no shortage of lies and misrepresentations being shared! 

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

...and no shortage of lies and misrepresentations being shared! 

 

Willful ignorance cannot not be excused with pity or condolences.

[Augie]

22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Willful ignorance cannot not be excused with pity or condolences.

 

But we still read your posts. Sometimes. I know willful ignorance when I see it. It can present itself as a sucker in (semi-) academia? 

 

I neither need nor want pity. We are blessed beyond belief. 

 

 

.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Augie

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, Cripple Creek said:

Flutie was shot. Finished. Used up. A noodle.  If you don't get that, you don't get football.

 

If agreeing with your ridiculous hot take constitutes getting football, then I will happily live the rest of my life not getting football ? thank you very much.

 

Have  a nice day.

 

Go  BILLS !!

Edited July 1, 2019 by reddogblitz

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

It’s one of the best threads of the offseason...lotta good football discussion.  Look at some of the other nonsense threads on the board right now...

It is a good thread.  It's marred by combative attitudes, but there a lot posters in this thread who know football and know the Bills.  

Edited July 1, 2019 by Shaw66

[teef]

On 6/29/2019 at 6:58 AM, Bill from NYC said:

Actually, this is a fair question.

is it really that hard to figure out.  posters, and even more important,  people like sotier tend to suck the life out of everything.  put the bills aside for a minute.  do you think someone like that is pleasant in real life?  i guarantee they aren't.  football is a game.  the fact that someone has some much bitterness, angst and anger towards it is completely a downer to me.  i'm sure it doesn't just end at football either, and that's sad.  it has zero to do with his actual message.

[thebandit27]

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

It is a good thread.  It's marred by combative attitudes, but there a lot posters in this thread who know football and know the Bills.  

 

And I'm here too!

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, teef said:

is it really that hard to figure out.  posters, and even more important,  people like sotier tend to suck the life out of everything.  put the bills aside for a minute.  do you think someone like that is pleasant in real life?  i guarantee they aren't.  football is a game.  the fact that someone has some much bitterness, angst and anger towards it is completely a downer to me.  i'm sure it doesn't just end at football either, and that's sad.  it has zero to do with his actual message.

 

Life is a rich tapestry teef and glass half empty people are just as important as glass half full people. I tend to consider myself pretty balanced (though who knows what others think) and I can find people who are always down on everything tiring to be around, but I often feel exactly the same about uber positive people. I manage a woman at the moment who is always positive, to what I consider an unrealistic level. I struggle with that too. Sometimes you need to say things as they are when they are bad rather than spinning them. She is good at her job, but she is an awful manager of her team as a result. Because their expectations as a team are never in accordance with the reality of the context in which we are working. 

Edited July 1, 2019 by GunnerBill

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

1 hour ago, teef said:

is it really that hard to figure out.  posters, and even more important,  people like sotier tend to suck the life out of everything.  put the bills aside for a minute.  do you think someone like that is pleasant in real life?  i guarantee they aren't.  football is a game.  the fact that someone has some much bitterness, angst and anger towards it is completely a downer to me.  i'm sure it doesn't just end at football either, and that's sad.  it has zero to do with his actual message.

 

And im sure none the overly positive posters settle for less in their personal lives. 

[Shaw66]

17 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

And I'm here too!

it takes all kinds, as Gunner was just saying.  

[Magox]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Life is a rich tapestry teef and glass half empty people are just as important as glass half full people. I tend to consider myself pretty balanced (though who knows what others think) and I can find people who are always down on everything tiring to be around, but I often feel exactly the same about uber positive people. I manage a woman at the moment who is always positive, to what I consider an unrealistic level. I struggle with that too. Sometimes you need to say things as they are when they are bad rather than spinning them. She is good at her job, but she is an awful manager of her team as a result. Because their expectations as a team are never in accordance with the reality of the context in which we are working. 

 

Glass half empty posters are valued, Glass with just backwash remaining.........

 

Not so much

[teef]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Life is a rich tapestry teef and glass half empty people are just as important as glass half full people. I tend to consider myself pretty balanced (though who knows what others think) and I can find people who are always down on everything tiring to be around, but I often feel exactly the same about uber positive people. I manage a woman at the moment who is always positive, to what I consider an unrealistic level. I struggle with that too. Sometimes you need to say things as they are when they are bad rather than spinning them. She is good at her job, but she is an awful manager of her team as a result. Because their expectations as a team are never in accordance with the reality of the context in which we are working. 

i completely agree.  balance is good, but the uber extremes are bad.  i'm definitely more of a casual reader of this board, mostly because i like the entertainment, but also because i learn a lot from some of the more knowledgeable posters.  that being said, i think there's something we've all realized from the uber negative side.  there's such a shocking need to be correct.  why...i have no idea, but it's like they just can't let themselves believe things may have actually changed.  they may not have changed at all, but their constant message of anti-optimism isn't nearly as important as they think it is.

 

i made the tongue and cheek comment that i found someone's posting to be depressing, and the first place that poster went was thinking that their message is so powerful, that it actually alters my mood.  that just seems to be the way that group rolls.  in this thread alone, i've seen some of these posters twist words, change arguments, and even lie for the sake of being right.  i like to read all viewpoints...it's how we learn, but some posters have just shown not to be worth the time.  not because of the message they push, but more because they're just plain unreasonable.

1 hour ago, Chemical said:

 

And im sure none the overly positive posters settle for less in their personal lives. 

i don't think it has anything to do with settling.  it's just more the glasses some choose to view life through.

56 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

Glass half empty posters are valued, Glass with just backwash remaining.........

 

Not so much

exactly.  there's a difference.  i think most realize that the posters we're referring to aren't your typical poster that just leans towards the doubtful side.  they like to lump themselves into that group, but they're easy to pick out.  hell, you can't avoid them.

Edited July 1, 2019 by teef

[Gugny]

48 minutes ago, teef said:

i completely agree.  balance is good, but the uber extremes are bad.  i'm definitely more of a casual reader of this board, mostly because i like the entertainment, but also because i learn a lot from some of the more knowledgeable posters.  that being said, i think there's something we've all realized from the uber negative side.  there's such a shocking need to be correct.  why...i have no idea, but it's like they just can't let themselves believe things may have actually changed.  they may not have changed at all, but their constant message of anti-optimism isn't nearly as important as they think it is.

 

i made the tongue and cheek comment that i found someone's posting to be depressing, and the first place that poster went was thinking that their message is so powerful, that it actually alters my mood.  that just seems to be the way that group rolls.  in this thread alone, i've seen some of these posters twist words, change arguments, and even lie for the sake of being right.  i like to read all viewpoints...it's how we learn, but some posters have just shown not to be worth the time.  not because of the message they push, but more because they're just plain unreasonable.

i don't think it has anything to do with settling.  it's just more the glasses some choose to view life through.

exactly.  there's a difference.  i think most realize that the posters we're referring to aren't your typical poster that just leans towards the doubtful side.  they like to lump themselves into that group, but they're easy to pick out.  hell, you can't avoid them.

 

I think you need a hug.

[teef]

7 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think you need a hug.

i mean...if you're handing them out.  that being said, if you're going to offer, don't half ass it.  i expect it to be a full embrace.  

[oldmanfan]

It is undoubtedly frustrating at times to be a BIlls fan.  But I try to remain optimistic each year. I think the only times I can recall going into seasons knowing It as going to be terrible was the era from around '68-'72 when we had coaches who had no clue like John Rauch (using OJ as a decoy!!) and Harvey Johnson, QBs like Dan Darraugh, Marlin Briscoe, James Harris,.  Those years were very difficult to be a fan to be sure; much, much more difficult than today.  And then of course the Kay Stephenson/Hank Bullough, Bruce Matheson years - another lovely time in Bills history.

 

This year you have a young promising QB, promising guys on defense, a revamped O line, et.  So I honestly don't get the negativity in some quarters.  Sure, it might not work out.  But I'm forced to conclude it's either some kind of psychological defense mechanism to avoid being disappointed again this coming year, or folks just trying to be snarky for the purpose of being so.

 

And yes, those who are claiming the opposite, that we're a Super Bowl contender, the ones that dig through the manure pile because there has to be a pony under there can be just as difficult to deal with.

 

Ultimately we all have opinions, and the fun of this place is to express those and debate those.  Just two things I wish folks would keep in mind:  1.  opinions are not facts, and as such don't express you opinions as such, and 2.  try to be consistent and use some form of logical framework in postings.  Some folks will say that black is white, and when you explain why it isn't they then start talking about how the sky is blue.  State an opinion, base it in some logical framework, and then stand behind it.

 

 

 

 

[Augie]

21 minutes ago, teef said:

i mean...if you're handing them out.  that being said, if you're going to offer, don't half ass it.  i expect it to be a full embrace.  

Beware! I think you can expect him to go whole ass on you! 

[Shaw66]

I try to be realistic. 

 

I mean, the uniforms suck, the team rarely wins, and the food in the stadium is pretty bad.  Even the name is stupid.  Buffalo Bills?   Buffalo Bill didn't have anything to do with Buffalo.  And the logo is just as bad - those are bison, not buffalo, and there weren't any bison in Buffalo.  The whole thing is stupid if you ask me. 

 

The quarterback was awful last season and hasn't shown me a thing yet this season.  EJ manual and JP Losman were exactly the same story.

 

The running backs are ridiculous.  I mean, why not sign Franco Harris and Crazy Legs Hirsch (or is he dead?)?  The Bills have no pass receivers who have led the league in either (1) receptions, (2) yards, (3) TDs or (4) sideline shouting matches with coaches and quarterbacks.  On defense, no one compares with Bruce Smith, Cornelius Bennett or Butch Byrd.  

 

The whole thing is just pointless.  

 

Like I said, I'm just being realistic.   I can't deal with the knee-jerk negativity we see around here some of the time.   And the optimists?   What's with THOSE people?

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I try to be realistic. 

 

I mean, the uniforms suck, the team rarely wins, and the food in the stadium is pretty bad.  Even the name is stupid.  Buffalo Bills?   Buffalo Bill didn't have anything to do with Buffalo.  And the logo is just as bad - those are bison, not buffalo, and there weren't any bison in Buffalo.  The whole thing is stupid if you ask me. 

 

The quarterback was awful last season and hasn't shown me a thing yet this season.  EJ manual and JP Losman were exactly the same story.

 

The running backs are ridiculous.  I mean, why not sign Franco Harris and Crazy Legs Hirsch (or is he dead?)?  The Bills have no pass receivers who have led the league in either (1) receptions, (2) yards, (3) TDs or (4) sideline shouting matches with coaches and quarterbacks.  On defense, no one compares with Bruce Smith, Cornelius Bennett or Butch Byrd.  

 

The whole thing is just pointless.  

 

Like I said, I'm just being realistic.   I can't deal with the knee-jerk negativity we see around here some of the time.   And the optimists?   What's with THOSE people?

 

THAT’S the spirit!!!

 

Now you’re being “objective”. 

 

 

I’ll say it again, I think the “optimists” are far more willing to admit what is wrong than the “pessimists” are willing to admit what is right. Hats off to the few who can see both sides fully. 

[Captain Murica]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I try to be realistic. 

 

I mean, the uniforms suck, the team rarely wins, and the food in the stadium is pretty bad.  Even the name is stupid.  Buffalo Bills?   Buffalo Bill didn't have anything to do with Buffalo.  And the logo is just as bad - those are bison, not buffalo, and there weren't any bison in Buffalo.  The whole thing is stupid if you ask me. 

 

The quarterback was awful last season and hasn't shown me a thing yet this season.  EJ manual and JP Losman were exactly the same story.

 

The running backs are ridiculous.  I mean, why not sign Franco Harris and Crazy Legs Hirsch (or is he dead?)?  The Bills have no pass receivers who have led the league in either (1) receptions, (2) yards, (3) TDs or (4) sideline shouting matches with coaches and quarterbacks.  On defense, no one compares with Bruce Smith, Cornelius Bennett or Butch Byrd.  

 

The whole thing is just pointless.  

 

Like I said, I'm just being realistic.   I can't deal with the knee-jerk negativity we see around here some of the time.   And the optimists?   What's with THOSE people?

 

 

I see what you did there, good show. 

[beerme1]

On 6/27/2019 at 12:01 AM, Chemical said:

 

Thanks for your contribution though

 

Oh and thank you for yours as well. I skimmed and then skipped over it. Have a nice day.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

IT'S ALIVE!!

 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Joe in Winslow said:

IT'S ALIVE!!