Is an Ivy League education much better than public universities/colleges?

[Another Fan]

I was talking with someone this morning about college.  We were talking about how in New Jersey Rutgers the state university is just a big pain in the ass in many ways.  There’s even a nickname RU screw for it.  

 

Then she mentioned Ivy League schools are easier than Rutgers.  In the sense that 99% of students graduate there versus 50% at Rutgers.  I mean yes obviously it’s much harder to get into an Ivy League school but with those graduation rates it seems the teachers want the students to succeed.  Large public universities that’s often not the case, professors could care less.  

 

Education wise are those schools any better though?  Seems like it’s just a name  

[Lurker]

2 minutes ago, Another Fan said:

 

Then she mentioned Ivy League schools are easier than Rutgers.  In the sense that 99% of students graduate there versus 50% at Rutgers.  

 

That's a very poor stat to use if you're trying to judge how difficult each school is.   

 

Rutgers students come from very diverse backgrounds and often don't have either the financial or family support resources to finish school.   That tells you nothing about how "hard" Rutgers is vs. an Ivy--where students usually come from upper and upper-middle class homes with plenty of resources and support systems.

 

Getting a college degree is as hard or easy as the student wants to make it.    Folks who sleep walk through the experience and wonder why it wasn't as life changing as they thought it would be need to look in a mirror more often...

[sherpa]

I have a few friends who left  service academies and went to Ivy League schools.

Universally, they claimed the service academies were much more challenging, for what that's worth, and their opinion eliminated the military demands,

[plenzmd1]

You make connections for life at Ivys...worth a ton. 

[Another Fan]

16 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

That's a very poor stat to use if you're trying to judge how difficult each school is.   

 

Rutgers students come from very diverse backgrounds and often don't have either the financial or family support resources to finish school.   That tells you nothing about how "hard" Rutgers is vs. an Ivy--where students usually come from upper and upper-middle class homes with plenty of resources and support systems.

 

Getting a college degree is as hard or easy as the student wants to make it.    Folks who sleep walk through the experience and wonder why it wasn't as life changing as they thought it would be need to look in a mirror more often...

The demographics at Ivy League schools aren’t necessarily that much different than most public universities.  There’s more kids per year that get perfect SAT scores then say admissions each year at Harvard.  Other factors play a role in admissions.  

[/dev/null]

10 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

You make connections for life at Ivys...worth a ton. 

 

Ivy League educations are the epitome of the saying "its not what you know, it's who you know".  If you want to get into law, politics, or a path towards being a corporate executive the Ivy League is a good option

 

Otherwise public universities or small colleges provide better education and training.  I would hire a Penn St engineer over an ivy leaguer any day, and I'm just as comfortable at a doctor from the University of Toledo as I would be with an Ivy Leaguer

[KD in CA]

20 minutes ago, sherpa said:

I have a few friends who left  service academies and went to Ivy League schools.

Universally, they claimed the service academies were much more challenging, for what that's worth, and their opinion eliminated the military demands,

 

Service academies are very difficult from what I know.  I think at Ivies or other top schools you have an expectation of hard work and serious students, but I don't think the work assignments are that dramatically different than state school.

 

But as plenz notes, there are benefits that extend far beyond graduation.  I've been in a lot of work situations where just about everyone went to an Ivy, or Georgetown, Stanford, etc.  It opens doors that are not always available to those who graduated from State U.  Certain industries (eg., investment banking) or companies only recruit from top schools.

 

My goal is to save enough to let my kids go to as good a school as they get in.

[plenzmd1]

23 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

 

My goal is to save enough to let my kids go to as good a school as they get in.

 

Long story, but about 02 we were able to make a lump sum contribution of $25K for each of our kids. Having that money now has made college so much easier for us. I understand we were lucky we could do that, but man those things are gold!

 

Having said that, I read a lot of financial stuff that says one of the major mistakes people make in their financial planning/ retirement planning is they save/spend too much on their kid's college expenses and not enough on their retirement funds.

[Just Joshin']

To me it is less about the education than the opportunities after graduation.

 

I went to a very good state school with a top rated department.  When i accepted a position mid career with a fortune 50 company I could see that Ivy leagues had a bias that I did not have.  I don't think it held me back but I had to compete hard.

 

There is an advantage with a local state school.  My company HQ was in NJ and they supported Rutgers.  They always interviewed and hired many Rutgers grads.  The connection helped with getting an interview but not the job.  A tie breaker at best.

 

No one way to go and a lot depends on the field of study but an Ivy degree can only help.

[KD in CA]

6 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Long story, but about 02 we were able to make a lump sum contribution of $25K for each of our kids. Having that money now has made college so much easier for us. I understand we were lucky we could do that, but man those things are gold!

 

Having said that, I read a lot of financial stuff that says one of the major mistakes people make in their financial planning/ retirement planning is they save/spend too much on their kid's college expenses and not enough on their retirement funds.

 

Yup.  First goal is to max the tax benefits on retirement, then on college plans.

 

I was fortunate enough to get a sizable chunk into the 529s early and have been able to benefit from long investment horizon.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

To me, it entirely depends on what degree you pursue. Law, medicine and other more prestigious curriculums carry more weight from these schools than state schools or your local college while you are applying for a secondary degrees or internships.

 

Othe degrees (take education or communications) probably don’t make much of a difference since your jobs are generally earned by your work experience and performance, not your degree. 

 

FWIW, I have a Bachelors and Masters from SUNY schools. I may not know as much as someone from Harvard, or have all the fancy connections, but I wouldn't trade my experience and I feel that I go shot for shot with anyone in my field despite their Alma mater. 

[Lurker]

55 minutes ago, Another Fan said:

The demographics at Ivy League schools aren’t necessarily that much different than most public universities.  

 

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/1/25/harvard-income-percentile/

 

The median family income for Harvard undergraduates is $168,800—more than three times the national median, according to a recent study.  The national median household income in 2015 was $55,775, according to Census data.

 

...The study ranks Harvard among the worst colleges nationwide at enrolling lower-income students. With 4.5 percent of students from the bottom 20 percent of the income distribution, Harvard ranks 2011th out of the 2395 schools for its proportion of low-income students.

 

[Mark80]

I went to Cornell.  I passed classes that I attended less than 5 times and studied for maybe one day for mid terms and finals when they came up.  I also took classes such as Gamelan where I got 3 credit hours and an easy A for playing gongs.  I mean, our final project was a concert on a gorgeous May day in Ithaca sitting Indian style on one of the quads.  I had great professors, I had bad professors.  Some classes were tougher than others, but overall, if you were just concerned with passing with a decent GPA, you didn't really have to do much, at least I didn't.  I imagine its not much different from most well run Universities.

2 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

To me, it entirely depends on what degree you pursue. Law, medicine and other more prestigious curriculums carry more weight from these schools than state schools or your local college while you are applying for a secondary degrees or internships.

 

Othe degrees (take education or communications) probably don’t make much of a difference since your jobs are generally earned by your work experience and performance, not your degree. 

 

FWIW, I have a Bachelors and Masters from SUNY schools. I may not know as much as someone from Harvard, or have all the fancy connections, but I wouldn't trade my experience and I feel that I go shot for shot with anyone in my field despite their Alma mater. 

 

This is probably very true.  I got into a much better law school than I should have based on my GPA.  I'm sure this and a good LSAT were the reason.

[Another Fan]

9 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/1/25/harvard-income-percentile/

 

The median family income for Harvard undergraduates is $168,800—more than three times the national median, according to a recent study.  The national median household income in 2015 was $55,775, according to Census data.

 

...The study ranks Harvard among the worst colleges nationwide at enrolling lower-income students. With 4.5 percent of students from the bottom 20 percent of the income distribution, Harvard ranks 2011th out of the 2395 schools for its proportion of low-income students.

 

Fair enough.  I was just looking at race diversity.  

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.wbur.org/edify/2018/10/24/harvard-diverse-wealth

 

As mentioned these schools can open up the door easier for you finding a job at graduation.  I just don’t think the education is necessarily better 

[RaoulDuke79]

Not sure about the quality of education,  but an ivy league school on a resume will get your foot in a lot more doors.

[Lurker]

6 hours ago, Another Fan said:

Fair enough.  I was just looking at race diversity.  

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.wbur.org/edify/2018/10/24/harvard-diverse-wealth

 

As mentioned these schools can open up the door easier for you finding a job at graduation.  I just don’t think the education is necessarily better 

 

As I said previously, "education" is what the student makes it.   It's an active, not passive process.  In addition to their faculties, facilities and off campus connections, the most (I repeat, most) imporant thing Ivys have to offer are the fellow students you meet and form life-long connections with.  Not so much as in an "old boys" sense, but in the sense that being exposed to high achievers and seeing that close up is revelatory.   The classes themselves are the least important reason to attend an Ivy or any university, IMO.

 

I work with many Ivy and public university grads.   The Ivy folks might not necessarily be more talented--but more often than not, are.   Not necessarily because of the cirriculum or anything that came from their classes--but because of who they were before, during and after school.   Many of them have experienced so much "more," have stronger interpersonal skills and an ease that comes from family backgrounds that have "done it before."

 

It's not a golden ticket.  But the opportunity to attend an Ivy is as the commercial says, priceless...

 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Lurker

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, Another Fan said:

I was talking with someone this morning about college.  We were talking about how in New Jersey Rutgers the state university is just a big pain in the ass in many ways.  There’s even a nickname RU screw for it.  

 

Then she mentioned Ivy League schools are easier than Rutgers.  In the sense that 99% of students graduate there versus 50% at Rutgers.  I mean yes obviously it’s much harder to get into an Ivy League school but with those graduation rates it seems the teachers want the students to succeed.  Large public universities that’s often not the case, professors could care less.  

 

Education wise are those schools any better though?  Seems like it’s just a name  

  I attended Cornell many many years ago.  Your citation of graduation percentages lacks context.  I know having gone through the admissions process Cornell analyzes your abilities extensively.  Cornell graduates an extremely high percentage because nothing is left to chance.  Odds are your potential curriculum advisor and dept instructors look over your application and essay for admission.  They will give admissions feedback as to whether you are worth a seat as my advisor put it.  Contrast this with when I attended a junior college.  When I applied to SUNY I met my advisor for ten minutes and took a self tour for half a day.  The admission to SUNY mostly hinged on my high school transcript.  Probably Rutgers and Ohio State of which I applied to only looked at grades and achievements.  I never wrote an essay or interviewed with admissions twice unlike Cornell to get accepted at Ohio State.

 

  As to being worth going to an Ivy I would say it is definitely worth it.  Not only for the connections which really did not do much for me personally for the decades afterward.  My instructors were well placed in the government and industry before they joined the academic world.  The information free flow is just something you are not going to get elsewhere.  One marketing professor was able to pass on useful anecdotes about his time in the Kennedy Administration and how the CIA could impact trade in certain parts of the world.

[Lurker]

6 hours ago, mead107 said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/09/13/a-compelling-argument-for-ivy-league-obsession-falls-flat/amp/

 

What a silly article.  The guy argues that since Ivy-plus undergrads make up only 13% of 1,000 "leaders," an Ivy degree is over-rated.   

 

What he should have considered is that while Ivy-plus undergrads make up 0.5% (roughly 80,000) of the 17.4 million U.S. undergrads at all institutions, they make up 13% of the "leaders".    That's a 26-to-1 favorable ratio.   

 

 

Its an advantage and all the stats in the world won't change that...

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Lurker

[mead107]

28 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

What a silly article.  The guy argues that since Ivy-plus undergrads make up only 13% of 1,000 "leaders," an Ivy degree is over-rated.   

 

What he should have considered is that while Ivy-plus undergrads make up 0.5% (roughly 80,000) of the 17.4 million U.S. undergrads all institutions, they make up 13% of the "leaders".    That's a 26-to-1 favorable ratio.   

 

 

Its an advantage and all the stats in the world won't change that...

 

 

Going to a IVY school doesn’t mean success. That’s what I take away from it.  

You can take the top 10 schools from the non Ivy and get just as good results.  

Did you go to one?  

[The Senator]

 

Having gone to both Harvard and Cornell, and rejected by Princeton and Yale, I can attest with a fair degree of certainty that Cornell is the easiest to get in, the hardest to graduate.

 

(Although it seems all the Kennedys that could not buy their way into Harvard went to Brown, so admission to Brown must also be fairly easy.)

 

And yes, while if I could do it again, I’d go to University of Hawaii, but the connections and cache of an Ivy League school have been worth the money, effort, and sacrifice.

.

Edited March 3, 2019 by The Senator

[Lurker]

48 minutes ago, mead107 said:

Going to a IVY school doesn’t mean success. That’s what I take away from it.  

You can take the top 10 schools from the non Ivy and get just as good results.  

Did you go to one?  

 

I'm not an Ivy grad but I have a great deal of familiarity with the programs (and the near Ivys like Chicago, which is the best of the bunch, IMO) through colleagues, recruiting and hiring.

 

 

 

[BringBackFergy]

Here’s an idea: Have your kid go to school, learn something that interests them, and if you can help them financially to attain some semblance of success, good work Mom and Dad. 

[The Senator]

7 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Here’s an idea: Have your kid go to school, learn something that interests them, and if you can help them financially to attain some semblance of success, good work Mom and Dad. 

 

Absolutely.  Do something you’re great at and you absolutely love doing, and you’ll never WORK a day in your life.

 

I’ve met many a UB grad who can talk circles around me.

 

(It’s the Dartmouth guys that really get under my skin. ?)

.

[BringBackFergy]

6 hours ago, Mark80 said:

I went to Cornell.  I passed classes that I attended less than 5 times and studied for maybe one day for mid terms and finals when they came up.  I also took classes such as Gamelan where I got 3 credit hours and an easy A for playing gongs.  I mean, our final project was a concert on a gorgeous May day in Ithaca sitting Indian style on one of the quads.  I had great professors, I had bad professors.  Some classes were tougher than others, but overall, if you were just concerned with passing with a decent GPA, you didn't really have to do much, at least I didn't.  I imagine its not much different from most well run Universities.

 

This is probably very true.  I got into a much better law school than I should have based on my GPA.  I'm sure this and a good LSAT were the reason.

You must be brilliant!!!

[Buffalo_Gal]

It's all in who you know. Just don't spend $400,000 on college and end up with a Gender Studies degree.

Cornell is an excellent value. It is half state-assisted (a state school), half private, but the same general studies are offered to the public and private students. Cornell also has very good tuition packages. 

[Augie]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

It's all in who you know. Just don't spend $400,000 on college and end up with a Gender Studies degree.

Cornell is an excellent value. It is half state-assisted (a state school), half private, but the same general studies are offered to the public and private students. Cornell also has very good tuition packages. 

 

I have a nephew with a VERY expensive degree from Rhode Islanbd School of Design. Around $300k I think.  Certainly one of the top art schools in the whole country. He’s extremely talented and has spent many years earning a living painting.......mostly houses and apartments while living in a tiny rental in Brooklyn. 

[The Senator]

6 hours ago, Mark80 said:

I went to Cornell.  I passed classes that I attended less than 5 times and studied for maybe one day for mid terms and finals when they came up.

 

So, during ‘reading week’, you finally cracked the textbook, and headed to Uris Library to watch 13 weeks of lectures?

 

6 hours ago, Mark80 said:

 

  I also took classes such as Gamelan where I got 3 credit hours and an easy A for playing gongs.  I mean, our final project was a concert on a gorgeous May day in Ithaca sitting Indian style on one of the quads.

 

We had no Gamelan, no gongs.  All we had on the quad was frisbee, and dogs.

 

Maybe it’s easier now but, for me, it was brutal.

 

(BTW, we beat St. Lawrence 4-2 yesterday - will clinch 1st in ECAC with a win over Clarkson tonight.  Not that it means much - all 12 teams make the tourney.  Kinda makes me wonder why we play the other 22 games.)

.

 

[Gray Beard]

I was always under the impression that Ivy League schools were more likely to pay off as a grad school, not so much as an undergrad. I know people who went to state schools for undergrad, then went to Ivy League grad schools. Ivy League med school, law school, business school, etc. is where the big advantage comes in.  And the advantage has a lot to do with contacts rather than academics. 

[The Senator]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

It's all in who you know. Just don't spend $400,000 on college and end up with a Gender Studies degree.

Cornell is an excellent value. It is half state-assisted (a state school), half private, but the same general studies are offered to the public and private students. Cornell also has very good tuition packages. 

 

I was fortunate enough to get almost ‘full boat’ at one of the endowed (private)) colleges thru Regents, National Merit, and University scholarships.  Had to earn about $2K/academic year on my own.

 

Then again, total cost of tuition, room, board, books, incidentals were between $7-8K/year when I wore a backpack.

. 

[/dev/null]

7 minutes ago, mead107 said:

I still believe that 50% of kids that go to college wasted a lot of money. 

 

money better spent on meadazon

[The Senator]

1 hour ago, mead107 said:

I still believe that 50% of kids that go to college wasted a lot of money.  Not everyone can make it to the top. Saw it at GE.  They got away from bringing people off the floor into management.  

Just because you went to an Ivy League college or any other college  doesn’t make you smart. 

I know a lot of people that started their own business and made a ton of money. 

 

Get kids back into shop class. We need good trades people. 

 

Ya know, why is it that I can turn on the TV any hour of day or night and find Cellino & Barnes, Phil Mattar, or Honest Jed trying to get me to sue someone, but I can’t find a decent carpenter or plumber?

.

Edited March 3, 2019 by The Senator

[RochesterRob]

10 hours ago, The Senator said:

 

So, during ‘reading week’, you finally cracked the textbook, and headed to Uris Library to watch 13 weeks of lectures?

 

 

We had no Gamelan, no gongs.  All we had on the quad was frisbee, and dogs.

 

Maybe it’s easier now but, for me, it was brutal.

 

(BTW, we beat St. Lawrence 4-2 yesterday - will clinch 1st in ECAC with a win over Clarkson tonight.  Not that it means much - all 12 teams make the tourney.  Kinda makes me wonder why we play the other 22 games.)

.

 

  One class I had permission was granted to miss lecture as long as I secured notes.  Attending lab was mandatory on the other hand.  My advisor was strict and any classes I had with him were often difficult.  Also, my advisor had a habit of having his secretary call my residence house at the start of a semester to arrange a sit-down as to what I was going to take for a semester.  Did not ask when I would be available but just set a time and was told to be there!  

[row_33]

I read an article a few years ago that stated admissions to top schools are:

 

1/3 each of legacies, intellectual achievers and (something like) set-asides. Set-asides are people who get in that do not have the $$ of legacies or the mind of the achievers and include athletes, quotas, artists or other prescribed student populations that are deemed important to the community.

 

j would hope that a child who is an honest achiever would get a chance to shine. Everyone thinks their child is one of these.

 

The worst situation is a set-aside who is trying and winds up in group projects with legacies, the “Gentleman’s C-grading” set that is wasting time at school till they join a career waiting for them since the cradle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark80]

11 hours ago, The Senator said:

 

So, during ‘reading week’, you finally cracked the textbook, and headed to Uris Library to watch 13 weeks of lectures?

 

 

We had no Gamelan, no gongs.  All we had on the quad was frisbee, and dogs.

 

Maybe it’s easier now but, for me, it was brutal.

 

(BTW, we beat St. Lawrence 4-2 yesterday - will clinch 1st in ECAC with a win over Clarkson tonight.  Not that it means much - all 12 teams make the tourney.  Kinda makes me wonder why we play the other 22 games.)

.

 

 

When I was there, most classes had a service available where you could pay to get the lecture notes.  Also, most lecture PPT slides were available online.  Finally, my major (ILR) was a lot of stuff repeated year after year after year in various classes.  I mean, how many levels of Organizational Behavior classes do you really need?  Same with Labor Law and Collective Bargaining classes.  The 400 level classes were basically the same as the 100 and 200 level ones.

 

Also, I never claimed to get high grades or anything.  I had friends in the Engineering school who had 4.0+ GPAs.  They worked way harder than I did and it was reflected in their grades.  I was fine getting by with my High 2s Low 3s. 

12 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

You must be brilliant!!!

 

Nah, I just learned at a young age how to manipulate schooling to make it as easy as possible.  And, just because I crammed and learned things in one day, doesn't mean I retained it for more than that day or two!

Edited March 3, 2019 by Mark80

[Another Fan]

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

I read an article a few years ago that stated admissions to top schools are:

 

1/3 each of legacies, intellectual achievers and (something like) set-asides. Set-asides are people who get in that do not have the $$ of legacies or the mind of the achievers and include athletes, quotas, artists or other prescribed student populations that are deemed important to the community.

 

j would hope that a child who is an honest achiever would get a chance to shine. Everyone thinks their child is one of these.

 

The worst situation is a set-aside who is trying and winds up in group projects with legacies, the “Gentleman’s C-grading” set that is wasting time at school till they join a career waiting for them since the cradle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean not to make this into a whole political crap show but George W Bush’s SAT scores were 150 points below the average for Yale freshman admits that year.  

[PromoTheRobot]

Not sure how true this still is but I was told that Ivy League schools have extension programs, essentially night school, where you get the same diploma for a lot less money. And it's easier getting in. Anyone know about this?

[BUFFALOKIE]

14 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

Here’s an idea: Have your kid go to school, learn something that interests them, and if you can help them financially to attain some semblance of success, good work Mom and Dad. 

Right on! My two year tech school associates degree, and my passion for my field has taken me a long way.

 

I am the luckiest man I know in that regard. I am making good money, doing what I wanted to do from age 5 on. Drawing pictures of airplanes ?

 

Unfortunately, my kids have no such passion.

Edited March 3, 2019 by BUFFALOKIE

[RochesterRob]

2 hours ago, Another Fan said:

I mean not to make this into a whole political crap show but George W Bush’s SAT scores were 150 points below the average for Yale freshman admits that year.  

  Except that you wanted to make it a crap show.  George W Bush is one of many who got a seat because of legacy.  It happens to people from a wide variety of backgrounds.  I know of a person who got into Cornell strictly because her father could throw an immense amount of weight  around over being admitted.  She clearly lacked the grades and background for her chosen field of study to be admitted based on her credentials.  

[Pete]

22 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

You make connections for life at Ivys...worth a ton. 

its all about networking.  My sister has her JD MBA and did all her schooling Ivy League.  The school debt is burdensome.  But like you state, it is all about the connections,

 

Hell I subscribe the Stamford, Yale, and Royal Institution channels and watch all the lectures.  But I don't have those networking connections you get with Ivy league

[Doc]

13 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Except that you wanted to make it a crap show.  George W Bush is one of many who got a seat because of legacy.  It happens to people from a wide variety of backgrounds.  I know of a person who got into Cornell strictly because her father could throw an immense amount of weight  around over being admitted.  She clearly lacked the grades and background for her chosen field of study to be admitted based on her credentials.  

 

Yup.  My roommate for my first 2 years at Cornell was a legacy and had no business being there.  Nice guy but struggled to pass every class.