Mel Kiper Mocks — 1.0 DT Rashan Gary 2.0 DK Metcalf

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, the skycap said:

There's concern about Montez Sweat heart too

In more ways than one 

[Reed83HOF]

4 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Cordy Glenn is a guard...Josh Allen has racist tweets

[BuffaloHokie13]

Dueling McShay Kiper mock out. Bills net Ed Oliver, N'Keal Harry, and Dawson Knox in the first 3 rounds. I would be very happy with that!

 

[YoloinOhio]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Dueling McShay Kiper mock out. Bills net Ed Oliver, N'Keal Harry, and Dawson Knox in the first 3 rounds. I would be very happy with that!

 

That would be yuuuuuuge

Edited April 18, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

That would be yuuuuuuge

ok billy

[Clyde Smith]

8 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Dueling McShay Kiper mock out. Bills net Ed Oliver, N'Keal Harry, and Dawson Knox in the first 3 rounds. I would be very happy with that!

 

That would shore up all our immediate needs right there.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Dueling McShay Kiper mock out. Bills net Ed Oliver, N'Keal Harry, and Dawson Knox in the first 3 rounds. I would be very happy with that!

 

 

 

I watch N'Keal Harry and see a guy who looks a lot like a mid-career Eric Moulds in terms of size/speed/quickness/power .    His measurables are close too.   Same type of big, springy but not super quick or fast WR.    That's OK..........but Moulds numbers were inflated from 2002-2005 because he was the "#1" and was getting fed constantly even as his ability to separate(and subsequently ypr) steadily declined so I wouldn't expect the same production from a young guy trying to earn his way with that skillset.    But more importantly it seems the league is trending toward quicker/faster types than it is contested catch guys.  And when you compare the similar measurables of Moulds and Harry it's important to remember that corners are bigger and faster now than they were when Moulds entered the league.   I think Harry will struggle to get open consistently.

[GreggTX]

Gary's production in college doesn't warrant a top 10 pick, but that doesn't mean Beane won't reach for him. After all, he even traded up for Edmunds when he probably could have gotten him in the 2nd and Vander Esch, who is far better, was still on the board. I hope he doesn't make that same mistake again.

 

Allen needs guys that can get separation to limit interceptions on his often off target throws.

Edited April 19, 2019 by GreggTX

[thebandit27]

11 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

Gary's production in college doesn't warrant a top 10 pick, but that doesn't mean Beane won't reach for him. After all, he even traded up for Edmunds when he probably could have gotten him in the 2nd and Vander Esch, who is far better, was still on the board. I hope he doesn't make that same mistake again.

 

Allen needs guys that can get separation to limit interceptions on his often off target throws.

 

Your comments about Gary and Edmunds are basically fundamentally incorrect.

 

As has been discussed as nauseum, Gary's evaluation goes well beyond stats. Were you upset when they traded up for a QB that threw 16 TDs at Wyoming? I wasn't, because I did a real actual evaluation on the kid.

 

As for Edmunds being available in round 2, there's no chance. Rashaan Evans went off the board 7 picks later, and he's not 80% of the prospect that Edmunds was.

 

Your post generally reads as though you don't like Beane's 2018 draft, which is fine, but your opinions are a bit overstated 

[JohnC]

20 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Your comments about Gary and Edmunds are basically fundamentally incorrect.

 

As has been discussed as nauseum, Gary's evaluation goes well beyond stats. Were you upset when they traded up for a QB that threw 16 TDs at Wyoming? I wasn't, because I did a real actual evaluation on the kid.

 

As for Edmunds being available in round 2, there's no chance. Rashaan Evans went off the board 7 picks later, and he's not 80% of the prospect that Edmunds was.

 

Your post generally reads as though you don't like Beane's 2018 draft, which is fine, but your opinions are a bit overstated 

If you had the choice between Gary or Oliver which player would you take for the Bills? It appears that Gary has more versatility while Oliver is more explosive and more of an interior penetrator. Most reports on Gary have questioned his consistent efforts while that issue doesn't apply to Oliver. The primary concern about Oliver is that because of his lack of size he might be engulfed defending the run. For me, when all is said and done I would be happy with either player, although I find Oliver the more intriguing player. 

[thebandit27]

26 minutes ago, JohnC said:

If you had the choice between Gary or Oliver which player would you take for the Bills? It appears that Gary has more versatility while Oliver is more explosive and more of an interior penetrator. Most reports on Gary have questioned his consistent efforts while that issue doesn't apply to Oliver. The primary concern about Oliver is that because of his lack of size he might be engulfed defending the run. For me, when all is said and done I would be happy with either player, although I find Oliver the more intriguing player. 

 

I'm an Oliver guy through and through 

[Jay_Fixit]

1 hour ago, GreggTX said:

Gary's production in college doesn't warrant a top 10 pick, but that doesn't mean Beane won't reach for him. After all, he even traded up for Edmunds when he probably could have gotten him in the 2nd and Vander Esch, who is far better, was still on the board. I hope he doesn't make that same mistake again.

 

Allen needs guys that can get separation to limit interceptions on his often off target throws.

You never disappoint.

[DrDawkinstein]

18 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Dueling McShay Kiper mock out. Bills net Ed Oliver, N'Keal Harry, and Dawson Knox in the first 3 rounds. I would be very happy with that!

 

 

Saw the show last night where they had us getting Oliver in the 1st and was very happy. I'd be THRILLED with that 3 round draft.

 

And just NO to Gary.

[thebandit27]

23 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Saw the show last night where they had us getting Oliver in the 1st and was very happy. I'd be THRILLED with that 3 round draft.

 

And just NO to Gary.

 

You might want to prepare yourself.  I'm not saying that it's a definite, since I believe that there are others higher on their board, but I am saying that you shouldn't be surprised 

[YoloinOhio]

I could be wrong but I think Some (not all) people are forming opinion of Gary based only on what they hear in the media. I know that there are some - @LSHMEAB comes to mind- who are actually Michigan fans and don’t want Gary and that’s valid because I’m assuming it’s from watching with his own eyes, etc. But something similar happened with Josh Allen last year, which I was guilty of, because I never watched Wyoming football. I just based my opinion of him on the media which I somewhat regret and wish I had enjoyed his draft day a bit more. Just my two cents on draft twitter and the media and how it can shape opinions on players you haven’t seen play or know a lot about the coaching, scheme, surrounding talent. Again I know some people do watch Michigan and know the program and still don’t like him, that’s valid too. I’ve personally watched him since HS and think he’s a beast who would be a great fit on the Bills DL in this scheme, nothing that took place last year at Michigan has changed that. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[DrDawkinstein]

29 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

You might want to prepare yourself.  I'm not saying that it's a definite, since I believe that there are others higher on their board, but I am saying that you shouldn't be surprised 

 

After being a Bills fan this long I'm prepared for anything in the draft. ESPECIALLY utter disappointment and disgust.

 

13 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I could be wrong but I think Some (not all) people are forming opinion of Gary based only on what they hear in the media. I know that there are some - @LSHMEAB comes to mind- who are actually Michigan fans and don’t want Gary and that’s valid because I’m assuming it’s from watching with his own eyes, etc. But something similar happened with Josh Allen last year, which I was guilty of, because I never watched Wyoming football. I just based my opinion of him on the media which I somewhat regret and wish I had enjoyed his draft day a bit more. Just my two cents on draft twitter and the media and how it can shape opinions on players you haven’t seen play or know a lot about the coaching, scheme, surrounding talent. Again I know some people do watch Michigan and know the program and still don’t like him, that’s valid too. I’ve personally watched him since HS and think he’s a beast who would be a great fit on the Bills DL in this scheme, nothing that took place last year at Michigan has changed that. 

 

I watched plenty of Michigan football to not be impressed. And a step further, watching the Michigan All or Nothing on Amazon Prime where he doesnt impress me with his attitude or as a person. Now, in his defense, I believe that was shot a couple years ago when he was a freshman so I'll admit it's possible he has grown, but I still think we could do better.

[HappyDays]

Beyond stats, which I don't really care about for college, what are the concerns with Gary? If work ethic is the concern we won't draft him. Is there anything else? He is definitely the Josh Allen of defense this year where everyone outside of NFL scouts want nothing to do with him and I'm wondering why.

[section122]

59 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I could be wrong but I think Some (not all) people are forming opinion of Gary based only on what they hear in the media. I know that there are some - @LSHMEAB comes to mind- who are actually Michigan fans and don’t want Gary and that’s valid because I’m assuming it’s from watching with his own eyes, etc. But something similar happened with Josh Allen last year, which I was guilty of, because I never watched Wyoming football. I just based my opinion of him on the media which I somewhat regret and wish I had enjoyed his draft day a bit more. Just my two cents on draft twitter and the media and how it can shape opinions on players you haven’t seen play or know a lot about the coaching, scheme, surrounding talent. Again I know some people do watch Michigan and know the program and still don’t like him, that’s valid too. I’ve personally watched him since HS and think he’s a beast who would be a great fit on the Bills DL in this scheme, nothing that took place last year at Michigan has changed that. 

 

I have a die hard Michigan guy in the office and he loves Gary.  He thinks he was hurt more than was let on and rushed back because the team was doing well.

That said...

He prefers Winovich and thinks he is better than Gary.  He's a Lions fan and hoping Winovich goes to them in the 2nd.  Said they are both beasts but Winovich plays harder.

 

I take everything he says with a grain of salt though.  He is a gigantic homer to the point of naming his son Braylon.  He might not be the most objective guy when it comes to Michigan players. 

[YoloinOhio]

29 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

I have a die hard Michigan guy in the office and he loves Gary.  He thinks he was hurt more than was let on and rushed back because the team was doing well.

That said...

He prefers Winovich and thinks he is better than Gary.  He's a Lions fan and hoping Winovich goes to them in the 2nd.  Said they are both beasts but Winovich plays harder.

 

I take everything he says with a grain of salt though.  He is a gigantic homer to the point of naming his son Braylon.  He might not be the most objective guy when it comes to Michigan players. 

Winovich absolutely killed the combine which will help him a lot. He plays harder than... just about anyone, haha. McDermott probably loves him. To me, these guys play different positions so I can’t really compare. But he would be a sound pick in the 2nd for sure. And a fan favorite with that personality. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[BuffaloHokie13]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

If you had the choice between Gary or Oliver which player would you take for the Bills? It appears that Gary has more versatility while Oliver is more explosive and more of an interior penetrator. Most reports on Gary have questioned his consistent efforts while that issue doesn't apply to Oliver. The primary concern about Oliver is that because of his lack of size he might be engulfed defending the run. For me, when all is said and done I would be happy with either player, although I find Oliver the more intriguing player. 

I personally like Gary for us, but there is no denying that Oliver is a crazy talent. I don't think you can go wrong with either, but if both were available at 9 I think I'm picking Gary.

[Rocket94]

Gary over Oliver? What if both are gone and Devin White is there...would you pick him based on talent BPA?

[Dopey]

11 minutes ago, Rocket94 said:

Gary over Oliver? What if both are gone and Devin White is there...would you pick him based on talent BPA?

Yes, in a heartbeat. We are thin at LB. White, Edmunds and Milano would be pretty good for the next few years. Edmunds is very versatile. When we go "nickle", Edmunds doesn't have to come off the field. He can rush off the edge and is pretty good at dropping into coverage. Plus Milano coming back at he same level is not guaranteed. 

[YoloinOhio]

20 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

I personally like Gary for us, but there is no denying that Oliver is a crazy talent. I don't think you can go wrong with either, but if both were available at 9 I think I'm picking Gary.

Gary fits more of the “prototype” in terms of measurables. I think oliver’s Arms are a tick short and he’s light. Just not sure how much that factors in for them. Would pay money to see their board! 

[Rocket94]

4 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Yes, in a heartbeat. We are thin at LB. White, Edmunds and Milano would be pretty good for the next few years. Edmunds is very versatile. When we go "nickle", Edmunds doesn't have to come off the field. He can rush off the edge and is pretty good at dropping into coverage. Plus Milano coming back at he same level is not guaranteed. 

For some reason, I keep coming back to Devin White. Just on his talent alone it would be hard to let him go. Yes, Edmunds would be great on the outside as well. Why do I keep thinking of White? We certainly need a DT as well. 

[Dopey]

3 minutes ago, Rocket94 said:

For some reason, I keep coming back to Devin White. Just on his talent alone it would be hard to let him go. Yes, Edmunds would be great on the outside as well. Why do I keep thinking of White? We certainly need a DT as well. 

Because Beane has the team set up to take BPA. Last year we NEEDED QB desperately, this year we are in a better position. If Gary and Oliver are gone, White is the BPA . IMO. 

[Rocket94]

3 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Because Beane has the team set up to take BPA. Last year we NEEDED QB desperately, this year we are in a better position. If Gary and Oliver are gone, White is the BPA . IMO. 

Yes! I agree on White. I say find a place for him...would not be difficult!

We need relentless and talented players like White, Oliver and Gary! Players that instill fear and wreak havoc!

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

I personally like Gary for us, but there is no denying that Oliver is a crazy talent./b] I don't think you can go wrong with either, but if both were available at 9 I think I'm picking Gary.

I appreciate your considered opinion. But I prefer taking the crazy talented player as you described it. Having a player who can apply interior pressure is a talent that isn't very readily available. There is no doubt that Gary is a more versatile lineman. But having a player who can get pressure up the middle is as important if not more important than a player who can apply pressure from the edge. 

[LSHMEAB]

3 hours ago, section122 said:

 

I have a die hard Michigan guy in the office and he loves Gary.  He thinks he was hurt more than was let on and rushed back because the team was doing well.

That said...

He prefers Winovich and thinks he is better than Gary.  He's a Lions fan and hoping Winovich goes to them in the 2nd.  Said they are both beasts but Winovich plays harder.

 

I take everything he says with a grain of salt though.  He is a gigantic homer to the point of naming his son Braylon.  He might not be the most objective guy when it comes to Michigan players. 

I want no part of Gary, but he's a better prospect than Winovich. Winovich was a big time playmaker at UM, but I wouldn't take him before the FOURTH round. He's 6'3 256 with short arms and a 4.59 40. He may have overperformed at the combine, but I wouldn't entirely agree with @YoloinOhio's assessment that he killed it. I think it's more a case of exceeding low testing expectations. I will say he definitely improved his stock, which I glean Yolo was driving at.

 

Similar to Winovich, it's not that I wouldn't take either of these players; it's that I wouldn't take them where they are projected to go.

 

If Gary was there in the 2nd and Winovich was there in the 4th, I'd be all about it. That's not going to happen. 

 

I saw Gary take off too many plays and rarely if ever change a game, let alone a series, especially against top competition.

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

On 4/18/2019 at 2:43 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I watch N'Keal Harry and see a guy who looks a lot like a mid-career Eric Moulds in terms of size/speed/quickness/power .    His measurables are close too.   Same type of big, springy but not super quick or fast WR.    That's OK..........but Moulds numbers were inflated from 2002-2005 because he was the "#1" and was getting fed constantly even as his ability to separate(and subsequently ypr) steadily declined so I wouldn't expect the same production from a young guy trying to earn his way with that skillset.    But more importantly it seems the league is trending toward quicker/faster types than it is contested catch guys.  And when you compare the similar measurables of Moulds and Harry it's important to remember that corners are bigger and faster now than they were when Moulds entered the league.   I think Harry will struggle to get open consistently.

 

I like Harry. I agree that he won't get a ton of separation, but he's so great on contested catches that I don't think it really matters. He was saying on NFL network, that he feels that even if he is covered, 9 times out of ten he is going to find a way to come down with the ball. I feel like we need a guy who excels at making contested catches. 

[PIZ]

On 4/19/2019 at 2:18 PM, LSHMEAB said:

I want no part of Gary, but he's a better prospect than Winovich. Winovich was a big time playmaker at UM, but I wouldn't take him before the FOURTH round. He's 6'3 256 with short arms and a 4.59 40. He may have overperformed at the combine, but I wouldn't entirely agree with @YoloinOhio's assessment that he killed it. I think it's more a case of exceeding low testing expectations. I will say he definitely improved his stock, which I glean Yolo was driving at.

 

Similar to Winovich, it's not that I wouldn't take either of these players; it's that I wouldn't take them where they are projected to go.

 

If Gary was there in the 2nd and Winovich was there in the 4th, I'd be all about it. That's not going to happen. 

 

I saw Gary take off too many plays and rarely if ever change a game, let alone a series, especially against top competition.

 

 

 

Read an article quoting Michigan's DC.  He said Gary never took plays off, did everything asked of him, worked extremely hard, and never had to worry about Gary not doing what was expected of him.

 

He is consistently considered top 5 or top 10 in the draft.

 

Did he really take plays off?

 

[dlonce]

Kiper or any of these national prognosticators have no clue.

They have no clue because they do not have the pulse of the teams.

 

All of these Metcalf predictions are predicated upon perceived need. There’s no thought to the type of players management 

gravitate towards or value of BPA. We need a receiver, we have Josh Allen, therefore it’s the logical pick in their minds.

If Devin White is there and The DL they want is gone then he will be the pick.

 

Their perception is we don’t need a LB or CB, which isn’t entirely true.

 

Thats why Kiper is always wrong.

 

[Solomon Grundy]

Was listening to Zig and Adam Caplan this morning and they think WR should be the pick. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

5 hours ago, dlonce said:

Kiper or any of these national prognosticators have no clue.

They have no clue because they do not have the pulse of the teams.

 

All of these Metcalf predictions are predicated upon perceived need. There’s no thought to the type of players management 

gravitate towards or value of BPA. We need a receiver, we have Josh Allen, therefore it’s the logical pick in their minds.

If Devin White is there and The DL they want is gone then he will be the pick.

 

Their perception is we don’t need a LB or CB, which isn’t entirely true.

 

Thats why Kiper is always wrong.

 

 

.....funny (or sad) how it sells year in and year out......bet Brylcream Mel rakes in a tidy sum from ESPN...........

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, dlonce said:

Kiper or any of these national prognosticators have no clue.

They have no clue because they do not have the pulse of the teams.

 

All of these Metcalf predictions are predicated upon perceived need. There’s no thought to the type of players management 

gravitate towards or value of BPA. We need a receiver, we have Josh Allen, therefore it’s the logical pick in their minds.

If Devin White is there and The DL they want is gone then he will be the pick.

 

Their perception is we don’t need a LB or CB, which isn’t entirely true.

 

Thats why Kiper is always wrong.

 

That's why most mock drafts are useless but they're fun to look at.  Even prognosticators who have a source inside often fall for the smokescreen.  Hell, most front offices only have a few people that know what their big board looks like.

[Coach Tuesday]

7 hours ago, PIZ said:

 

Read an article quoting Michigan's DC.  He said Gary never took plays off, did everything asked of him, worked extremely hard, and never had to worry about Gary not doing what was expected of him.

 

He is consistently considered top 5 or top 10 in the draft.

 

Did he really take plays off?

 

 

It’s almost worse if he didn’t take plays off - because I never saw him actually make a play...

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I like Harry. I agree that he won't get a ton of separation, but he's so great on contested catches that I don't think it really matters. He was saying on NFL network, that he feels that even if he is covered, 9 times out of ten he is going to find a way to come down with the ball. I feel like we need a guy who excels at making contested catches. 

 

A few seasons ago I would have been more on board.   Big WR were killing it.   But the field is opening up.   Even the near extinct Dexter McCluster-type scatback is making a comeback.   And with PI becoming reviewable I think that could really hurt a team that features a big WR who pushes off to get separation as a #1 or #2 option.    At one time PI versus a WR was almost not even a thing.........now you could die with a late game call by that sword.   Even more reason to focus on guys who separate IMO.

 

And if Harry is not a guy that you see as a #1 or #1B option then first or second round is too early for a WR.    If you are constantly trying to find a way to make him your 3rd option to get favorable matchups then he is probably a "one contract and done" player.   

 

I do think they need a big target who can make plays in the redzone though..........but I'm on board with Gunner and see TE Josh Oliver as that option and they can probably get him with their 3rd rounder.    

 

DK Metcalf is also an underrated red zone target IMO.    People talk about his ability to quickly beat press and run a blazing go route.......and that is a big weapon to extract safety help from the box if nothing else.     But he is pretty impressive on contested plays in the end zone.  Also has that Randy Moss-esque ability to track and extend for the looping over-shoulder pass that otherwise lands 3-4 yards out of  bounds.    Those require no pushing off.  The TD he scored leaping over Lonnie Johnson Jr. stands out because I think LJJ is going to be a legit good NFL CB.

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

It’s almost worse if he didn’t take plays off - because I never saw him actually make a play...

 

 

Agreed.   Also found it interesting that he formed his own player agency?    I know teams are all for players working on life after football but maybe do something before you work on your locker-room-law degree.   Maybe he hasn't nearly reached his potential in college because he has ADHD.?

[Lurker]

On 1/17/2019 at 10:21 PM, Rock'em Sock'em said:

If we go DT, would you rather have Gary or the undersized, but play maker, Oliver?

 

 

No offense, but highlights against Rice, ESU and Navy are worth next to nothing.   Arizona was 5-7 and playing backup OL in that game (the announcers even commented on it).

 

That's why the draft is such a crap shoot, IMO.   Quality of competition matters significantly and a guy who dominates inferior opponents may look better than he really is.   I hope the Bills scouting staff can see the projectables a guy like Oliver has vs. 330 lbs NFL guards and centers...

[LSHMEAB]

13 hours ago, PIZ said:

 

Read an article quoting Michigan's DC.  He said Gary never took plays off, did everything asked of him, worked extremely hard, and never had to worry about Gary not doing what was expected of him.

 

He is consistently considered top 5 or top 10 in the draft.

 

Did he really take plays off?

 

I wouldn't expect the curmudgeon DC to throw Gary under the bus, but he would KNOW better than a casual observer. It appeared to me like Gary did not give max effort at all times, but I have no idea what he was tasked with on any given play.

 

I will say this; if he had all that talent and was asked to simply pave the way for others, that seems like gross mismanagement by Brown.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

13 hours ago, PIZ said:

 

Read an article quoting Michigan's DC.  He said Gary never took plays off, did everything asked of him, worked extremely hard, and never had to worry about Gary not doing what was expected of him.

 

He is consistently considered top 5 or top 10 in the draft.

 

Did he really take plays off?

 

 

....on another note if memory serves me, a major knock against Haloti Ngata was he "tends to take plays off"....must be why we took Wiffner instead....

[Solomon Grundy]

On April 18, 2019 at 2:43 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I watch N'Keal Harry and see a guy who looks a lot like a mid-career Eric Moulds in terms of size/speed/quickness/power .    His measurables are close too.   Same type of big, springy but not super quick or fast WR.    That's OK..........but Moulds numbers were inflated from 2002-2005 because he was the "#1" and was getting fed constantly even as his ability to separate(and subsequently ypr) steadily declined so I wouldn't expect the same production from a young guy trying to earn his way with that skillset.    But more importantly it seems the league is trending toward quicker/faster types than it is contested catch guys.  And when you compare the similar measurables of Moulds and Harry it's important to remember that corners are bigger and faster now than they were when Moulds entered the league.   I think Harry will struggle to get open consistently.

Moulds breakout season was 1998. Moulds also had 8 different QBs in his career. I'd like to imagine Moulds in Indy with Manning. He'd probably be in the HOF.