Cool Detailed Analysis - Zay Jones

[Alphadawg7]

25 minutes ago, Logic said:

I respect your take, and I respectfully disagree with it.

Zay Jones will be a Buffalo Bill in 2019. He's cheap labor that's trending up. Beane and McDermott mentioned him in the year-end press conference as a guy who looks to be coming into his own.

I don't think he'll ever be the dominant #1 wideout that Bills fans seem to want him to be. I DO think, though, that he can have a long and productive career as a possession receiver out of the slot and a security blanket for his quarterback. Now if only the Bills would wise up and start actually PLAYING him in the slot more often.

 

All good and yeah, the slot is where I said his ceiling is next year IMO as I just don't see how he has a good shot to start as WR1 or WR2 once we go out and acquire more WR's.  

 

As I mentioned, Foster has already passed him on depth chart, and they clearly are going to draft/sign/trade for at least one WR expected to be a starter.  That leaves that person and Foster as the favorites to start at WR next year.  So right now, Zay IMO is going to be competing to be the 3rd WR and he already has potential competition with the recent signing of Williams.  Now factor in that we likely add more WR's via FA/Trade/Draft and now he is competing with multiple WR's for the WR3/Slot role.  

 

Im not rooting against Zay, I have just lost faith that he can be a reliable and quality starter in this league.  There just isnt any facet of the game (YET as he can always get better) that he is particularly good at.  Watching him get manhandled in games like the Lions and Pats games was just hard to watch.  He doesn't "win" his routes often enough, has unreliable hands, doesn't make many contested catches, doesn't have a good catch radius, doesn't adjust or come back to the ball well, isnt great at getting separation, and doesn't have top end speed.  

 

So for me that is why I don't see Zay as a lock once he his lined up against better competition for that WR3/Slot spot.  Be great if he takes a step forward, but his performance this year for me was not good enough for me to feel his job is safe next year.

 

15 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Re-read the chart.  They had an identical catch percentage.  

 

This is an important, driving factor for Beane.  And it is something that is almost NEVER considered on this board.  

 

Well its not considered right now because we have no reason to focus on cheap labor with so much cap room and the need to spend a lot of it.  Now his cheap price tag was certainly a value for the Bills this past season with so much dead cap money, but next year that won't help save his job IMO.  So I believe Zay making his case for one of the top 3 WR's on the roster next year will come down to his ability to play well, not his price tag.  

Edited January 7, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

All good and yeah, the slot is where I said his ceiling is next year IMO as I just don't see how he has a good shot to start as WR1 or WR2 once we go out and acquire more WR's.  

 

As I mentioned, Foster has already passed him on depth chart, and they clearly are going to draft/sign/trade for at least one WR expected to be a starter.  That leaves that person and Foster as the favorites to start at WR next year.  So right now, Zay IMO is going to be competing to be the 3rd WR and he already has potential competition with the recent signing of Williams.  Now factor in that we likely add more WR's via FA/Trade/Draft and now he is competing with multiple WR's for the WR3/Slot role.  

 

Im not rooting against Zay, I have just lost faith that he can be a reliable and quality starter in this league.  There just isnt any facet of the game (YET as he can always get better) that he is particularly good at.  Watching him get manhandled in games like the Lions and Pats games was just hard to watch.  He doesn't "win" his routes often enough, has unreliable hands, doesn't make many contested catches, doesn't have a good catch radius, doesn't adjust or come back to the ball well, isnt great at getting separation, and doesn't have top end speed.  

 

So for me that is why I don't see Zay as a lock once he his lined up against better competition for that WR3/Slot spot.  Be great if he takes a step forward, but his performance this year for me was not good enough for me to feel his job is safe next year.

 

 

Well its not considered right now because we have no reason to focus on cheap labor with so much cap room and the need to spend a lot of it.  Now his cheap price tag was certainly a value for the Bills this past season with so much dead cap money, but next year that won't help save his job IMO.  So I believe Zay making his case for one of the top 3 WR's on the roster next year will come down to his ability to play well, not his price tag.  

 

I think you are getting too bogged down in terms like "WR1" and slot.  At the NFL level, coaches don't really think in those terms.  They put WRs all over the field.  They categorize WRs by their skill sets and role in the team.  Even the third WR on the depth chart plays well over 50% of the snaps, with the fourth guy still getting upwards of 20% of snaps.  Where they line up in a "base set" is irrelevant to playing time. 

 

We will obviously keep Foster, we will bring in a new guy with a high-ish pick or in FA, but after that it is all Zay.  He is the most senior WR on this team and has chemistry with Josh Allen.  He is a high pick that is still in the middle of his development phase. 

 

I appreciate all your arguments, I really do, but there is less than zero chance he is not on this team next year.  

[Alphadawg7]

15 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I think you are getting too bogged down in terms like "WR1" and slot.  At the NFL level, coaches don't really think in those terms.  They put WRs all over the field.  They categorize WRs by their skill sets and role in the team.  Even the third WR on the depth chart plays well over 50% of the snaps, with the fourth guy still getting upwards of 20% of snaps.  Where they line up in a "base set" is irrelevant to playing time. 

 

We will obviously keep Foster, we will bring in a new guy with a high-ish pick or in FA, but after that it is all Zay.  He is the most senior WR on this team and has chemistry with Josh Allen.  He is a high pick that is still in the middle of his development phase. 

 

I appreciate all your arguments, I really do, but there is less than zero chance he is not on this team next year.  

 

All good, and get your side.  But here is my question...You think that after all the WR talk by both Beane and McD that they will only add 1 more WR this offseason?  In your opinion, did you feel we were 1 WR away from having a good WR group?  

 

Thats where we really differ.  If we ONLY add one more relevant WR via FA or Draft, then sure, I agree with you that Zay's roster spot is likely safe unless he has more offseason issues, or a bad camp.  But, I just don't think that McD and Beane feel we only need to add one WR in addition to Williams.  And Williams himself right now seems to be quite intriguing if his off field stuff is under control.  

 

I think its more realistic that there will be 3 new relevant WRs (one of which is Williams plus 2 more not yet on the roster) competing for significant playing time with both Foster and Zay come camp, and Foster has already passed Zay.  And like I said earlier, there isnt one part of the game anyone can honestly say that Zay excels at right now, so how will he do if competing against better competition for playing time is my big question.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

All good, and get your side.  But here is my question...You think that after all the WR talk by both Beane and McD that they will only add 1 more WR this offseason?  In your opinion, did you feel we were 1 WR away from having a good WR group?  

 

Thats where we really differ.  If we ONLY add one more relevant WR via FA or Draft, then sure, I agree with you that Zay's roster spot is likely safe unless he has more offseason issues, or a bad camp.  But, I just don't think that McD and Beane feel we only need to add one WR in addition to Williams.  And Williams himself right now seems to be quite intriguing if his off field stuff is under control.  

 

I think its more realistic that there will be 3 new relevant WRs (one of which is Williams plus 2 more not yet on the roster) competing for significant playing time with both Foster and Zay come camp, and Foster has already passed Zay.  And like I said earlier, there isnt one part of the game anyone can honestly say that Zay excels at right now, so how will he do if competing against better competition for playing time is my big question.

 

I think Beane is more likely to add a high-value and a low-value WR.  That low-value WR will not push Zay out.  People forget that before we drafted Zay, the Panthers (including Beane) were going to draft him.  I think Beane likes Zay.  Giving up on a second round pick that he wanted in the draft after two seasons (with #2 production) is highly unlikely. 

 

You have to take Beanes comments in context.  They got burned by Kelvin, had to cut Foster early, and were throwing together pieces through the remainder of the year.  WR obviously needs to be addressed, and they will want more out of Zay, but I just don't think they were criticizing Zay as much as they unit as a whole. 

 

 

 

 

[K-9]

On 1/3/2019 at 4:42 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Trading up for any non qb is probably stupid.  But if you honestly thought OBJ was a better receiver pre draft than Sammy, you’re a liar.  Sammy was one of the great college receivers ever:  https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/sammy-watkins-1.html

 

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/odell-beckham-jr-1.html

 

for the record, I loved Mike Evans. 

This is not an over statement. One of four college players in history to be named an All American as a true freshman and the ONLY receiver ever to be named as such. Coming out, he was leaps and bounds ahead of the class according to scouts; there was Watkins and then everyone else. 

[C.Biscuit97]

31 minutes ago, K-9 said:

This is not an over statement. One of four college players in history to be named an All American as a true freshman and the ONLY receiver ever to be named as such. Coming out, he was leaps and bounds ahead of the class according to scouts; there was Watkins and then everyone else. 

Thank you.  It’s the classic hindsight.  Sammy struggles with injuries, a bad throwing qb, and an outdated offense.  He was supposed to be Hopkins.  It never worked out that way, and you shouldn’t trade up for any position but qb.  

 

But pre draft, there was zero debate Sammy was the number 1 receiver (I was huge Evans guy though because I thought he made Manziel).

[ROCBillsBeliever]

On 1/3/2019 at 5:23 PM, TaskersGhost said:

 

How so?  

 

Jones was the 4th overall WR taken in the '17 Draft.  For a high 2nd-rounder much more is expected.  

 

5 WRs drafted after him have posted more yards, in all but one case significantly more yards than Jones.  

3 rookie WRs from this year's class posted more yards this season than he did.  They were drafted about where he went;  10 & 12 spots ahead and 4 behind.  

11 WRs from this year's class had more yards in their rookie seasons than Jones did.  Nearly half of them were round 3 and day-3 picks.  9 were drafted at positions later than his.  

 

The NFL has made it easier than ever, literally, for QBs and WRs to excel in the passing game.  This is why RBs have little value anymore as well.  

 

Meanwhile, Jones ranked 177th (out of 202) in catch % this season, well ahead of where he was last season.  Last season he was 210th out of 212 with only Kamar Aiken and Breshad Perriman behind him.  

 

He hasn't had a single 100-yard game in two seasons.  This past game was only his second game of over 70 yards and it too, like most of the most of the rest of his play, was in he equivalent of garbage time.  Even in this past game, 58 of hiis 93 yards and one of his two TDs came when the game was already over 35-17 in the 4th quarter.  He only had 3 catches for 35 yards and all of his drops in the first 3 quarters.  

 

If you look at his splits you'll see that he's a poster-boy for garbage time stats.  He was at EC too, that was easily seen, for anyone looking that is, well before that draft.  

 

Those are all facts.  

 

Isn't it simply possible that he was a bad pick at 36th overall and the staff misjudged the value in the NFL of a QB in college that also made a living, in a spread offense often featuring 5 WRs, in garbage time?  Because to me that's clearly the case and was upon drafting him.  All of that was out there for anyone that did the homework, which the team should have done.  

 

In order to be a starting WR in the NFL you have to be reliable, and there's absolutely nothing on record that even remotely indicates that Jones is reliable when the game is on the line or in the early stages.  This ain't college, there's no room for a spread offense like EC ran, perptually, and the talent that Jones is going against is far different than what he faced in college and he simply hasn't answered the bell like his draft peers have.  He doesn't beat anyone.  

 

He's a project, one that isn't worth the time and energy and that likely will never be more than a depth-caliber WR.  If McBeane treats him as one of two starters next season they do so at their own risk.  

Facts:

Peterman

Taylor

Anderson

 

All threw many passes to Zay.

 

Fact:

All threw many bad passes.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/3/2019 at 12:50 PM, dneveu said:

Knock on JuJu coming out was speed, didn't seem to have enough coming out of his breaks.

Interested to see how he does if they actually do trade AB.  

Coming out AB was a highly productive undersized receiver who lacked physicality.  I think it may also have something to do with developing receivers, not just scouting them.

 

Yes.  And having a probable future HOF QB throwing to them gotta help.

[BakersBills]

4 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Re-read the chart.  They had an identical catch percentage.  

 

This is an important, driving factor for Beane.  And it is something that is almost NEVER considered on this board.  

 

 

Who cares, I watched them both play.

 

It’s an insult to moulds, Jones is 3 levels below him.

 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

21 minutes ago, BakersBills said:

 

 

Who cares, I watched them both play.

 

It’s an insult to moulds, Jones is 3 levels below him.

 

 

 

Oh. You’re one of those posters. I’ll just move along. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I would keep Jones on a short leash, if he is still dropping passes and running sloppy routes then they should try and trade or relese him before the season starts. I honestly think he fills more of a 4th or 5th WR role. If he was good on ST he might have some value as a 4th WR but Jones is horrible on ST.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I would keep Jones on a short leash, if he is still dropping passes and running sloppy routes then they should try and trade or relese him before the season starts. I honestly think he fills more of a 4th or 5th WR role. If he was good on ST he might have some value as a 4th WR but Jones is horrible on ST.

Unless he breaks out next year, it’s going to hard to ever justify that trade up.  It’s just a bad move.  That said, it’s a sunk cost at this point so he just becomes a 3rd/4th: Josh Reed guy that has some value.

[Jay_Fixit]

On 1/3/2019 at 10:44 AM, freddyjj said:

I had JuJu in Rd 3 for Bills that Mock

Dude, we should re-name the board after you.

[TigerJ]

Zay's first year was a struggle for him.  There seemed to be some confidence issues.  He was much improved this past season, but he's still a work in progress.  It's not at all unreasonable to expect significant improvement going forward.  He does some things very well.

[BakersBills]

7 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Oh. You’re one of those posters. I’ll just move along. 

You can cherry pick all you want. 

 

Zay jones is mediocre until prove otherwise.

 

dude doesn’t show up when it matters.

[GETTOTHE50]

He did have that smooth moon walk move to get up though.

 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

6 hours ago, BakersBills said:

You can cherry pick all you want. 

 

Zay jones is mediocre until prove otherwise.

 

dude doesn’t show up when it matters.

 

 

“Zay doesn’t play well in the big moments”

 

so you isolated discrete moments in a season to pass your judgment about Zay. 

 

Do you know what “cherry pick” means? Because that is the definition of cherry picking.

[DCOrange]

On 1/3/2019 at 1:44 PM, WMDman said:

I personally think Zay had a fine season and has been developing nicely, I look forward to next year when he is hopefully in the slot

 

The thing is I think he's probably a lot more comfortable in the slot and probably projects best playing in the slot moving forwards, but philosophically speaking, I feel like Daboll might prefer a short, quick slot WR like he had in New England rather than a more well-rounded but not particularly special in any category type like Zay. I think a guy like Adam Humphries or Cole Beasley would be a significant upgrade over Zay in the slot.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

We should be happy with the development of Zay Jones and Robert Foster. Your'e only as good as your QB and we had one of the worst QB situations in the league for the first half of last season. They're going to be much better next year.

[Billsfan1972]

Seen very little & I think the stats bare it out.

 

I hope he makes a huge jump in 2019, and then will come the question that seems to be the Bills bugaboo......  Paying players at skilled positions....

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

I'll go on record and say I think Zay is going to have a big year next season.  1000 yards 10 TD's are well within his abilities.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 1/3/2019 at 1:43 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

The trade up to take him was a terrible, terrible move.  But at least, he can be a productive player.  

 

But we could have had our number 1 in JuJu and an extra draft pick. Frustrating.

 

Revisionist history at its best;  Zay was a better prospect at the time than JuJu in every way. 

[BakersBills]

11 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

 

“Zay doesn’t play well in the big moments”

 

so you isolated discrete moments in a season to pass your judgment about Zay. 

 

Do you know what “cherry pick” means? Because that is the definition of cherry picking.

All his best games were division games and the last one was after the bills we’re eliminated lol

 

Drops balls in critical moments.

 

moulds played in a tough era where dbs could hold you.

 

come back when you learn football.

 

hopefully ***** stains are covered under fatheads return policy.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

45 minutes ago, BakersBills said:

All his best games were division games and the last one was after the bills we’re eliminated lol

 

Drops balls in critical moments.

 

moulds played in a tough era where dbs could hold you.

 

come back when you learn football.

 

hopefully ***** stains are covered under fatheads return policy.

 

So you acknoweldge you are cherry picking to criticize what you perceived (ironically incorectally) as my cherry picking?

 

moulds had a great career. His first two years were not great. 

 

Also, don’t say “learn football.” Makes you look silly. Not a good look. 

[BakersBills]

26 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

So you acknoweldge you are cherry picking to criticize what you perceived (ironically incorectally) as my cherry picking?

 

moulds had a great career. His first two years were not great. 

 

Also, don’t say “learn football.” Makes you look silly. Not a good look. 

Lol like I give a ***** about your opinion 

 

your cousin is mediocre.

 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, BakersBills said:

Lol like I give a ***** about your opinion 

 

your cousin is mediocre.

 

 

 

Who is my cousin?

[Augie]

14 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Who is my cousin?

 

Vinny? 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

Vinny? 

 

Nice...

[Green Lightning]

On 1/7/2019 at 12:52 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Honestly I don't think he is a lock for the roster.  Beane and McD have been very vocal about the need to make plays at WR and the need to get better there.  The only constant all year is that Zay was a starter.  And while he had some moments, overall he too frequently let the team down either with drops or being completely taken out of games by opposing defensive backs.  Doesn't mean he can't make significant improvements this summer, but right now, I think his future here is very much in question.

 

Foster has already over took him on the depth chart, so as of right now he is clinging to the #2 WR spot.  And as soon as we sign or draft someone to start, Zay will suddenly be competing for the #3 spot at best.  And with the signing of Williams, he already has competition before we look at WR in FA/Draft/Trade. 

 

Right now, I think Zays chances of being on the roster next year are at best 50/50 and he is going to have to earn a roster spot.  Odds that he starts at WR next season are below 5% IMO.  I think its pretty safe to say we will add at least 2 more WR's in FA/draft/trade on top of just adding an intriguing prospect in Williams.  Come camp, there will be at least 2 starters ahead of him, and likely 1 or 2 other guys all vying for WR3 to WR5.  

 

My prediction:  Zay doesn't make the final roster next year and is either traded or cut.

WR1 - Not currently on roster, will be through FA/Trade/Draft (slight chance someone like Foster or Williams could win this spot, but I think its pretty likely this is someone not currently on the roster).  

WR2 - Foster (may compete to be WR1, depending no who we bring in).  Williams could also push him for this spot potentially.

WR3 - I think someone not currently on roster.  Could be Foster if someone like Williams moved his way up the depth chart.  But I think Foster is the WR2 and this guy is not currently on roster.  I think we will sign someone like Humphries or draft a guy to come in and be a slot weapon.  If Zay manages to make the final roster, I think this spot is his ceiling going into next year.

WR4 - Williams - I like this signing because he has a skill set we didn't have in the WR room this year with his catch radius.  So assuming he is past is off field stuff I think he will both make the roster and actually could maybe compete for one of top 3 spots as well.  Until we can see what he can do on an NFL field though, I cant project him any higher than WR4.  We also need to see if he can get separation on routes without using that running start in the CFL.  Zay for me likely lands here if he say beats out Williams and keeps a roster spot.

WR5/WR6/ST - I think McKenzie and some other young player we already have or add this offseason will be here, not sure how many WR's they carry come week 1, but I would guess 5 or 6 total.  

 

So for me, I think Williams signing may be the end of Zay due to a numbers game here.  I don't think for a second that the FO feels Williams is anywhere near enough to add to the WR room.  I expect 2 more additions on top of that.  So with those 2 additions, Foster, Williams, and McKenzie that doesn't leave a lot of room for Zay unless he makes some impressive leaps forward this offseason.  In fact, assuming we bring in two more relevant WR's, I think Zay's ability to make this roster will then rely on one of two things...either making a profound leap forward himself, or seeing someone like Williams flame out and get cut.

Well those are a lot of words but they add up to huh? Zay Jones is going to make this team next year and is likely going to be the number two receiver, or one of them. By that I mean I don't think we're going to find a clear number one unless it's by a trade. I think we're going to have more of a committee of competent solid receivers. 

[Augie]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Nice...

 

I thought it was a good guess. 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Juice_32]

3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

I’m glad you posted this. He’s been busting his butt this offseason. If he doesn’t pan out in 2019 it won’t be for a lack of effort. 

[aceman_16]

On 1/3/2019 at 1:43 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

The trade up to take him was a terrible, terrible move.  But at least, he can be a productive player.  

 

But we could have had our number 1 in JuJu and an extra draft pick. Frustrating.

Why do people continually hindsight every draft with "we could have had...."? It is a frustrating claim that literally EVERY fan of EVERY team could make.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Juice_32 said:

 

I’m glad you posted this. He’s been busting his butt this offseason. If he doesn’t pan out in 2019 it won’t be for a lack of effort. 

 

Work ethic has never been a question mark.  

 

However, his hands, route running, speed, separation, mental strength, and ability to make contested catches all have been and still are.  And if he doesn’t pan out, these will all be the reasons.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[whatdrought]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

Are those pants photoshopped on?

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, aceman_16 said:

Why do people continually hindsight every draft with "we could have had...."? It is a frustrating claim that literally EVERY fan of EVERY team could make.

Because I was all about JuJu before that draft. I knew he was a stud.  So yeah, when they trade up for a guy who played against subpar competition because they hired his college coach, it’s a little frustrating.

 

IMo, Zay will never be close to the player as JuJu. It was a really bad decision.  That said, it’s a sunken cost and he could be a solid possession guy for us.

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

I mean this is much better than fighting his brother naked.  But much like DK Metcalf, this doesn’t really impress me.  Getting all jacked for a receiver isn’t necessarily great.  

[Meazy26]

20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Because I was all about JuJu before that draft. I knew he was a stud.  So yeah, when they trade up for a guy who played against subpar competition because they hired his college coach, it’s a little frustrating.

 

IMo, Zay will never be close to the player as JuJu. It was a really bad decision.  That said, it’s a sunken cost and he could be a solid possession guy for us.

I mean this is much better than fighting his brother naked.  But much like DK Metcalf, this doesn’t really impress me.  Getting all jacked for a receiver isn’t necessarily great.  

I don’t think Stevie Johnson ever lifted weights lol 

[ctk232]

On 1/3/2019 at 10:53 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Separation is different than speed.  Jerry Rice ran like a 4.6.  JuJu just seems to play faster than Zay.

 

and if they trade Brown, James Washington will be the next good Steelers receiver. Loved him too.  They just kill in the draft.  Too bad they just have some many d bags.

That is an incredibly important distinction for a lot of people to realize on this board, not just in reference to Zay. While speed can help create separation, the two are not equivalents, nor do you necessarily need speed to do well in creating separation.

 

On 1/3/2019 at 10:43 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

The trade up to take him was a terrible, terrible move.  But at least, he can be a productive player.  

 

But we could have had our number 1 in JuJu and an extra draft pick. Frustrating.

Word - though we'll kill ourselves playing that game with the drafts...happens to every team, every year. No one really knew at the time either, despite our preliminary thoughts being ultimately correct.

 

On 1/3/2019 at 10:42 AM, freddyjj said:

Eric Moulds Yr 1 and 2

 

Game	Game	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%
1996	23	BUF	KR/wr	80	16	5	37	20	279	14.0	2	47	1.3	17.4	54.1%
1997	24	BUF	KR/WR	80	16	8	52	29	294	10.1	0	32	1.8	18.4	55.8%

 

Zay Jones Yr 1  and 2

 

Game	Game	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece	Rece
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%
2017	22	BUF	WR	11	15	10	74	27	316	11.7	2	33	1.8	21.1	36.5%
2018	23	BUF	WR	11	16	15	102	56	652	11.6	7	57	3.5	40.8	54.9%

 

Similar year 2 catch rates.  Moulds did have Todd Collins and AVP throwing to him in 1997.  And Zay had a motley crew this year.  Zay had more targets as Moulds had Andre Reed and Quinn Early as WR1 and WR2.  Zay's catch rate in 2018 was better than Early's and Reed's in 1997.  and he had 2 more TDs than either of them

Appreciate the comparison, but even with the similar rates we're still comparing apples to oranges here. Different NFL, different Bills, different offensive schemes, almost entirely different context. Not to mention Moulds is not Zay and vice versa. I always have issues with these player comparisons for that reason whether they be good or bad, Zay or not, so much goes into why the stats looked this way. Ties into the discussions around certain players not performing based on x, y, z stats - if the player's role in the scheme in place is to produce in areas that don't show in the stat box, you can't exactly measure their worth or impact solely based on stats. Which leads me into:

 

On 1/3/2019 at 10:44 AM, WMDman said:

I personally think Zay had a fine season and has been developing nicely, I look forward to next year when he is hopefully in the slot

^this exactly. Just from the past two seasons, most of the issues this board has with Zay in someway tie back to the trade up to get him, and/or comparison with JuJu, and/or his inability to be a WR1. If we look back, the trade up scenario is completely on the FO and to place expectations on the player from that event isn't accurate in the slightest - FO's make mistakes in judgment all the time. But for me I never saw Zay fulfilling a WR1 or even WR2 role in an NFL offense, much less ours. He was a stud slot receiver who shined in a role he hasn't really played since arriving here - not to mention in his first two years, he's had Taylor, Peterman, Allen, Anderson, and Barkley throwing to him. I say this only to highlight wtaf were our expectations for him? And why do we feel he's done after two years of little to no efficacious data?

 

Overall, within the context of him being a primary slot receiver with WR2 role potential, and removing the comparisons to JuJu and the trade up to get him, he's progressed well and if he continues to do so, could very well be a key component to our corps we desperately need. Could be wrong, but I'd like to actually see him utilized more in the roles he's fit to play and within reasonable context and see whether he'll be a longterm aspect of the corps. But all the draft complaints surrounding him and griping for missing out on JuJu should be solely directed at the FO.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Meazy26 said:

I don’t think Stevie Johnson ever lifted weights lol 

And fans hated him for it!!! I’m not saying you shouldn’t lift weights but flexibility is way more important for a receiver.  Becoming a monster killed David Boston’s career. He became too slow and couldn’t get separation.

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

That is an incredibly important distinction for a lot of people to realize on this board, not just in reference to Zay. While speed can help create separation, the two are not equivalents, nor do you necessarily need speed to do well in creating separation.

 

Word - though we'll kill ourselves playing that game with the drafts...happens to every team, every year. No one really knew at the time either, despite our preliminary thoughts being ultimately correct.

 

Appreciate the comparison, but even with the similar rates we're still comparing apples to oranges here. Different NFL, different Bills, different offensive schemes, almost entirely different context. Not to mention Moulds is not Zay and vice versa. I always have issues with these player comparisons for that reason whether they be good or bad, Zay or not, so much goes into why the stats looked this way. Ties into the discussions around certain players not performing based on x, y, z stats - if the player's role in the scheme in place is to produce in areas that don't show in the stat box, you can't exactly measure their worth or impact solely based on stats. Which leads me into:

 

^this exactly. Just from the past two seasons, most of the issues this board has with Zay in someway tie back to the trade up to get him, and/or comparison with JuJu, and/or his inability to be a WR1. If we look back, the trade up scenario is completely on the FO and to place expectations on the player from that event isn't accurate in the slightest - FO's make mistakes in judgment all the time. But for me I never saw Zay fulfilling a WR1 or even WR2 role in an NFL offense, much less ours. He was a stud slot receiver who shined in a role he hasn't really played since arriving here - not to mention in his first two years, he's had Taylor, Peterman, Allen, Anderson, and Barkley throwing to him. I say this only to highlight wtaf were our expectations for him? And why do we feel he's done after two years of little to no efficacious data?

 

Overall, within the context of him being a primary slot receiver with WR2 role potential, and removing the comparisons to JuJu and the trade up to get him, he's progressed well and if he continues to do so, could very well be a key component to our corps we desperately need. Could be wrong, but I'd like to actually see him utilized more in the roles he's fit to play and within reasonable context and see whether he'll be a longterm aspect of the corps. But all the draft complaints surrounding him and griping for missing out on JuJu should be solely directed at the FO.

Trust me, I have been wrong once in a while. ?. What made me upset about JuJu miss is I thought JuJu was special and had future #1 receiver talent.  Zay was a favor pick (the Bills did this with Prohel but it was a 7th).  Zay, at the absolute best, is a low end 2.  And fans used to kill Whaley for trade ups. While we did again!

 

fans say there is no talent for Allen to throw too but that’s because of bad decisions this regime made.  They need to come out of this draft with at least 2 good threats in the passing game.