Where would we be if we still had Cogs and Wood?

[formerlyofCtown]

For all the complainers that want McBeane gone, have you thought about where we would be if we still had our two Pro-Bowl Olineman.  

 

Maybe Im wrong but I think with those two Allen doesnt get injured in the Texans game.  So at the least he would have won that game I believe and would have gotten more on field experience.

 

I also believe our run game would have been much better.

 

Best case senerio we may have actually had a shot at the division title.

 

The only down side may have been we may not have gotten Anderson and Barkley.  There is no way to tell how much hes learned from them.  Also I believe we have a long term viable backup in Barkley.

 

They had no way of knowing they would lose those two Oline and to ask them to replace those guys in a single off season is obserd.  Its amazing that there are some that cant put this season in perspective.  

 

We have had coach after coach that had their players underachieving and now we have one that I believe gets his team to overachieve and people want to get rid of him.  Im very excited about this teams potential goin forward as they seem to actually develope talent and motivate players.  I do believe it would have been easier to see it with Cogs and Wood still on the line.

[Patrick Duffy]

I think the running game and Allen would have been better and of course Allen would have been protected a little better,but not better enough to win no more than maybe 3 more games IMO. I think they still would have had problems with the WRs. We will never know.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Patrick_Duffy

[fansince88]

5 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

I think the running game and Allen would have been better and of course Allen would have been protected a little better,but not better enough to win no more than maybe 3 more games IMO. I think they still would have had problems with the WRs. We will never know.

True. We will never know. Also true the haters would still be hating.

[SoCal Deek]

Well..if this theory is true then there’s no reason to focus on anything other than the OLine in 2019. The rest of the many, many offensive problems (WR, TE, RB, and QB) were all self inflicted wounds by this Front Office and Coaching staff.

[Simon Says]

Therefore were obvious salary cap ramifications to Wood and Incognito retiring, but,Bills had time to find replacements. Could Beane have done a better job filling those two spots?How much worse was the Bodine/Groy combo at center? Ducasse/Teller at LG?

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Pablocruise

[fansince88]

7 minutes ago, Moonzoo said:

 

It is impossible to know, but the wide receiver position could have been substantially affected by the loss of these two players.  Someone out there is smart enough to figure out who might be on thus team if they were not gone.

I agree. The line affects the QB play. If the QB isnt protected the WR cant get to his spot. That said, he has to catch the ball. I would guess 30-45 catches missed this year. Am I wrong?

[DCbillsfan]

You bring up a good point.  Losing Wood and Cogs after last season derailed the process somewhat.  

 

They stuck with their plan to draft a qb and scrapped together an oline that is brutal.  

 

10 picks and 90 MM  in cap space this offseason hopefully addresses this oline. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

If we kept Robert Woods at least Allen would have one WR to throw to.

[fansince88]

1 minute ago, Moonzoo said:

 

The question is: what player resources were expended to replace these two which could have been used elsewhere, including wide receiver?  We know at the very least that two extra players would have been available to the Bills, but we do not know how the loss of Cogs and Wood affected decisions regarding player personnel, including wide receiver personnel.  The loss of two effective starting linemen could very well have scrambled the priorities and evaluation of personnel/units, including the acquisition of personnel, including wide receivers.  

Yes. Also, they had 12 OL men in camp.  The two lines, like it or not are hard to replace.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

A Little crazier and a lot better 

[fansince88]

6 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

If we kept Robert Woods at least Allen would have one WR to throw to.

It has been said here 100Xs Woods did not want to be here

[BarleyNY]

18 minutes ago, Moonzoo said:

I agree. Every criticism of McBeane totally omits the significant loss of these two.

 

I have yet to see any analysis which says: here is why the loss of these two is irrelevant to the conclusion that McBeane are bad.

 

From on the field to personnel, the unexpected absence of these two may have affected things substantially.

 

I realize Peterman (or other examples) will be cited as having nothing to do with these two.  But how different would the team have looked with these two?  

 

Actually one of my big criticisms of them this season was that they didn’t seem to alter their plan at all when they lost those two.  I hate seeing the OL largely ignored.  It would’ve been bad enough in a typical season, but it was inexcusable in a season where they were going to trot out a raw rookie to run a vertical passing game.  A solid OL that could give him time and take pressure off of him by opening up the running game was the most important thing they could’ve done for Allen.  But they had a plan to get their QB, their cornerstone LB and and fix the defense and they executed it despite the changing conditions of the offense. The lack of talent at WR didn’t help either. They’ve got to fix it this offseason. 

[SoCal Deek]

Yikes! There are a ton of sob stories on here. The Bills has virtually ZERO injuries on either side of the line of scrimmage throughout the entire season. There are teams around the league having to make personnel decisions on a weekly basis. Whereas the Bills saw a starting CB RETIRE during a game, then traded away their #1 WR, and cut their opening day QB. Yea....I’m sure this mess was due to an old Offensive Guard retiring!  Sheeesh

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

2 minutes ago, fansince88 said:

It has been said here 100Xs Woods did not want to be here

Can you blame him, he had to play with Taylor as QB for his time with the Bills.

[fansince88]

1 minute ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Can you blame him, he had to play with Taylor as QB for his time with the Bills.

Exactly!!!!

[JohnC]

The departure of Incognito has me miffed. Why was the GM so determined to cut his salary when he could have easily fit it in this year? Cog's level of play was starting to slide a little but he was still arguably our best blocker. Was Cog's behavior and mental condition noticeably deteriorating? I don't know. What we do know is that offseason his behavior did show signs of trouble. My question is if they were willing to keep him on a scaled-down salary why didn't they just keep him at his current salary? We surely  could have used him this year. 

[BringBackOrton]

7 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The departure of Incognito has me miffed. Why was the GM so determined to cut his salary when he could have easily fit it in this year? Cog's level of play was starting to slide a little but he was still arguably our best blocker. Was Cog's behavior and mental condition noticeably deteriorating? I don't know. What we do know is that offseason his behavior did show signs of trouble. My question is if they were willing to keep him on a scaled-down salary why didn't they just keep him at his current salary? We surely  could have used him this year. 

We had no idea he would lose his mind after taking a pay cut. You are operating with the benefit of hindsight.

[Victory Formation]

I think with Cog and Wood we would be at least .500. Probably have the #1 rushing offense although our passing offense probably wouldn't change, it's a bare cupboard in that regard. I don't know? 8 wins?

[hemma]

Incognito, Kouandjio, Davis, Harvin, Boldin, Kromer ...

 

need to find that bad waterhole and seal it off.

[ALF]

I was hoping a healthy Cordy Glenn LT , with Dawkins at RT .  Richie was a key loss.  Beane should not have messed with his salary.

 

So much for a top running game. It will be hard to rebuild a OL especially with a lot of other teams bidding for the same free agents.

[Peter]

1 hour ago, formerlyofCtown said:

For all the complainers that want McBeane gone, have you thought about where we would be if we still had our two Pro-Bowl Olineman.  

 

Maybe Im wrong but I think with those two Allen doesnt get injured in the Texans game.  So at the least he would have won that game I believe and would have gotten more on field experience.

 

I also believe our run game would have been much better.

 

Best case senerio we may have actually had a shot at the division title.

 

The only down side may have been we may not have gotten Anderson and Barkley.  There is no way to tell how much hes learned from them.  Also I believe we have a long term viable backup in Barkley.

 

They had no way of knowing they would lose those two Oline and to ask them to replace those guys in a single off season is obserd.  Its amazing that there are some that cant put this season in perspective.  

 

We have had coach after coach that had their players underachieving and now we have one that I believe gets his team to overachieve and people want to get rid of him.  Im very excited about this teams potential goin forward as they seem to actually develope talent and motivate players.  I do believe it would have been easier to see it with Cogs and Wood still on the line.

 

This is a good argument for . . . not initiating a pay cut for one of these guys and doing a better job of replacing the other (who you knew would not be coming back the first week of the off season).

 

Cordy was a huge loss also.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Peter

[DRA3196]

IMO.The loss of Wood and Cog is probably the most overlooked offseason scenario that happened this year. Clearly the Bills were in "Let's find our QB" mode back in January and April, prior to the draft. They didn't have the time or the resources to replace Incognito. With the Wood situation they at least had Groy as a viable option (or so they thought) and they signed Bodine who was a starter in CIN. But the loss of one of the best guards in the league was devastating. Not just to the team but also to Shady. Ritchie and Shady had a special relationship on the field. Shady had trust and confidence in Cog and Wood. To me shady is not running with confidence and with good reason. Also throw in the fact that chemistry along the o-line has not been established and it is easy to see why we have the worst o-line and rushing attack in the league. Kudos to the OP

Edited December 25, 2018 by DRA3196

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, DRA3196 said:

IMO.The loss of Wood and Cog is probably the most overlooked offseason scenario that happened this year. Clearly the Bills were in "Let's find our QB" mode back in January and April, prior to the draft. They didn't have the time or the resources to replace Incognito. With the Wood situation they at least had Groy as a viable option (or so they thought) and they signed Bodine who was a starter in CIN. But the loss of one of the playing guards in the league was devastating. Not just to the team but also to Shady. Ritchie and Shady had a special relationship on the field. Shady had trust and confidence in Cog and Wood. To me shady is not running with confidence and with good reason. Also throw in the fact that chemistry along the o-line has not been established and it is easy to see why we have the worst o-line and rushing attack in the league. Kudos to the OP

 

Not true at all. They could have gone after Andrew Norwell instead of paying the money they did for Star and/or Trent Murphy. 

[Trogdor]

1 hour ago, formerlyofCtown said:

For all the complainers that want McBeane gone, have you thought about where we would be if we still had our two Pro-Bowl Olineman.  

 

Maybe Im wrong but I think with those two Allen doesnt get injured in the Texans game.  So at the least he would have won that game I believe and would have gotten more on field experience.

 

I also believe our run game would have been much better.

 

Best case senerio we may have actually had a shot at the division title.

 

The only down side may have been we may not have gotten Anderson and Barkley.  There is no way to tell how much hes learned from them.  Also I believe we have a long term viable backup in Barkley.

 

They had no way of knowing they would lose those two Oline and to ask them to replace those guys in a single off season is obserd.  Its amazing that there are some that cant put this season in perspective.  

 

We have had coach after coach that had their players underachieving and now we have one that I believe gets his team to overachieve and people want to get rid of him.  Im very excited about this teams potential goin forward as they seem to actually develope talent and motivate players.  I do believe it would have been easier to see it with Cogs and Wood still on the line.

Why do people keep saying he would've won that game. It took Peterman to come in to get any movement on offense. Think about how sad that is. Allen didn't look good in that game at all.

[Doc]

The blame lies with RI for taking the pay cut and then going crazy. I bet he regrets doing that.  He and Wood would have been major upgrades to the OL and offense. 

[Peter]

1 minute ago, Moonzoo said:

 

I thought Cogs voluntarily accepted the pay cut.  

 

Who thought it was a great idea to initiate a pay cut with one of our few all pro players?

 

 

[JohnC]

21 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

We had no idea he would lose his mind after taking a pay cut. You are operating with the benefit of hindsight.

The issue that has me confused was why was it necessary to require him to take a pay cut? Did his performance decline so precipitously? I don't think so. We weren't cap squeezed to the point that his salary cut had to be made. Was he already exhibiting troubling signs? I don't think so because the organization was willing to keep him with a lower salary. No doubt that he was on the downside of his career but he was still arguably our best blocker on a unit that was already lacking even before the other departures. 

 

I'm not posing judgments as I am posing questions. The Incognito situation from the way the organization's handled it just doesn't add up. I'm not sure what happened here. 

[Peter]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The issue that has me confused was why was it necessary to require him to take a pay cut? Did his performance decline so precipitously? I don't think so. We weren't cap squeezed to the point that his salary cut had to be made. Was he already exhibiting troubling signs? I don't think so because the organization was willing to keep him with a lower salary. No doubt that he was on the downside of his career but he was still arguably our best blocker on a unit that was already lacking even before the other departures. 

 

I'm not posing judgments as I am posing questions. The Incognito situation from the way the organization's handled it just doesn't add up. I'm not sure what happened here. 

 

You are correct.

 

Of course, it will be a matter of debate, but I believe:

 

1) What McBeane did to Incognito was completely gratuitous.  Why target one of your few all pro players who had played so well and was integral to Dawkins' development?!?

 

2) Incognito would have acted just as he always had with the Bills within the structure of the team.  He felt that he had been pushed into it.  Pushing him to take a pay cut clearly backfired on the Bills.  

Edited December 25, 2018 by Peter

[Straight Hucklebuck]

5-6 wins and in the twilight of both their careers. 

[Peter]

1 minute ago, Moonzoo said:

 

I did not know McBeane deliberately decided not to get Norwell, or that Norwell was guaranteed to come here if they had.  That puts a new light on things. 

 

Maybe you heard that they "deliberately" thought it was a great idea to try to get one of our few all pro players to take a pay cut.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Moonzoo said:

 

I did not know McBeane deliberately decided not to get Norwell, or that Norwell was guaranteed to come here if they had.  That puts a new light on things. 

 

Pure silliness. I posted they could have gone after not they were guaranteed to sign him. Their priority was spending on defense with the same priority in the draft with the premium picks being spent on defense with the exception of Allen. 

[Peter]

1 minute ago, Moonzoo said:

 

I do not know.  Who did, and why?

 

So Cogs did NOT accept the  pay cut voluntarily?  I was mistaken.  

 

I think his reaction amply demonstrates what he thought about the Bills insisting that he take a pay cut.

[hemma]

I think Richie would have had a hard time holding it together without Wood.

I think Wood was a big part of Incognito's 'support' and when he was gone, Richie's slide went quicker.

[The Red King]

Cogs could have said no.  He said yes.  Then he went outright berserk, and some people think that's 100% on the Bills.  Accordng to their logic teams should never, ever ask a star to take a pay cut because if they accept, then go berserk, it's the team's fault.  New England really took a chance asking Brady to take a cut because *bam* he could have snapped and it would have been the team's fault!  They really rolled the dice! ?

[unbillievable]

Nathan Peterman would have gone to the pro-bowl. The Bills would have won the division.

 

...And the Bills would have drafted Tom Brady in the 5th... assuming the time machine continues to work after the initial testing phase.

[Steve Billieve]

1 hour ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

If we kept Robert Woods at least Allen would have one WR to throw to.

That’s the one player I never understood moving on from. I knew it would have been tough with the cap but still. 

[BringBackOrton]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The issue that has me confused was why was it necessary to require him to take a pay cut? Did his performance decline so precipitously? I don't think so. We weren't cap squeezed to the point that his salary cut had to be made. Was he already exhibiting troubling signs? I don't think so because the organization was willing to keep him with a lower salary. No doubt that he was on the downside of his career but he was still arguably our best blocker on a unit that was already lacking even before the other departures. 

 

I'm not posing judgments as I am posing questions. The Incognito situation from the way the organization's handled it just doesn't add up. I'm not sure what happened here. 

He was older, his play was falling off, and he was making a lot in the short term when he wasn’t in our long term plans. Cap space rolls over. 

 

Cog in 2017 was a much different performer than Cog in 2015. 

[Peter]

8 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Cogs could have said no.  He said yes.  Then he went outright berserk, and some people think that's 100% on the Bills.  Accordng to their logic teams should never, ever ask a star to take a pay cut because if they accept, then go berserk, it's the team's fault.  New England really took a chance asking Brady to take a cut because *bam* he could have snapped and it would have been the team's fault!  They really rolled the dice! ?

 

Why did McBeane wake up one morning and somehow decide that it was a good idea to ask the one returning pro bowl lineman from that year to take a pay cut?

Edited December 25, 2018 by Peter

[BringBackOrton]

5 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

Why did McBeane wake up one morning and somehow decide that it was a good idea to ask the one returning pro bowl lineman from that year to take a pay cut?

I’ll give you 6 and a half million reasons.

[CaptnCoke11]

I’m guessing 5-10