The Trump Shutdown

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 If they do a deal that cuts out Pelosi and Schumer right before they take leadership roles... that would be epic trolling.

[Buffalo_Gal]

White House Meeting on Border Wall Funding

House Speaker Paul Ryan and Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy says the president will not sign a stop-gap funding bill without his $5 billion request for a border wall. A partial government shutdown will begin Friday at midnight without a deal.

 

[Tiberius]

 

 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:23 AM, Swill Merchant said:

That's a rather conclusory argument.

Well, here's the "libertarian argument" I had earlier that you seem to have missed

 

• A massive government works project
• Will require the seizure of land from private citizens via eminent domain
• infringes state's rights, as the federal government will be overriding the enumerated powers that they are supposed to have regarding enforcement
• even if it is built, it will require continual manpower assignment and maintenance
• you can do far better national security policing by taking equivalent funds and giving them to intelligence agencies and law enforcement
• a static emplacement like a wall is useless against catapults shooting drugs over the border, vast networks of cartel tunnels, air drops, naval crossings, smuggling through our ports and is just an god awful waste of money for an extremely limited and stationary structure.

And then I'll get into the "lefty liberal" parts where you have pesky things like "statistics" that tell you that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes. Here's the argument from the Cato institute, a libertarian think tank: https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-reform-bulletin/criminal-immigrants-their-numbers-demographics-countries

 

So, in short, it's an expensive thing that won't do what it's designed to do, and the thing that it's supposed to be protecting us from is not an issue in the first place.

 

 

Yeah...this is what Trumptards think it's worth shutting down the government for.

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Yeah...this is what Trumptards think it's worth shutting down the government for.

 

 

Schumer shut the government down for non citizens... and you didn't say a word. 

 

Your partisanship is showing again.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

2 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 If they do a deal that cuts out Pelosi and Schumer right before they take leadership roles... that would be epic trolling.

Lol, you think that people might seriously consider that.

 

 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Schumer shut the government down for non citizens... and you didn't say a word. 

 

Your partisanship is showing again.

I would feel worse for that, had there not been a bipartisan compromise offered, one that met Trumptard's demands, only he threw one of his patented little temper tantrums.

 

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/01/24/white-house-the-grahamflakedurbin-immigration-proposal-is-dead-to-us-n2438713

 

lol. The brain parasites that riddle you guys must be hitting your memory centers extra hard

[Deranged Rhino]

16 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I would feel worse for that, had there not been a bipartisan compromise offered, one that met Trumptard's demands, only he threw one of his patented little temper tantrums.

 

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/01/24/white-house-the-grahamflakedurbin-immigration-proposal-is-dead-to-us-n2438713

 

lol. The brain parasites that riddle you guys must be hitting your memory centers extra hard

 

That's a nonsense answer... from a nonsense poster who has yet to offer anything of value down here. 

 

You're terrible at this.

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 minute ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Well, here's the "libertarian argument" I had earlier that you seem to have missed

 

That's not a strong libertarian argument at all.

 

You should stop making arguments from authority (which is a logical fallacy), especially when you don't understand the positions you're arguing from authority on.

 

A massive government works project

 

Libertarians believe that the government has proper and well defined Constitutional authorities.  These are derived from the belief that rights are sacrosanct, and nation states are the best way to enshrine their protection from outside aggressors.

 

As such, the proper province of a federal government is to define and protect borders, and to define the rules for residence and citizenship.

 

And so, while they agree that large scale government action is less than ideal, they understand that there is no other entity capable of this primary necessary function of the  nation state.  As such, it is appropriate for the federal government to undertake this role, just as it does in maintaining our military.

 

Will require the seizure of land from private citizens via eminent domain



 

The provision of the Fifth Amendment which states "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation" was put in place for exactly this reason.  There is no clearer Constitutional case for the seizure of private land for public use than the defense of national borders.

 

infringes state's rights, as the federal government will be overriding the enumerated powers that they are supposed

to have regarding enforcement

 

The states do not enjoy any rights in regards to naturalization, immigration, or the protection of sovereign national borders.  These are federal duties, as logically these controls must be uniform as they are among the foundational principals which define what a nation is.

 

even if it is built, it will require continual manpower assignment and maintenance

 

This is not a libertarian argument in any way.  Again, this is part of naturalization, immigration, or the protection of sovereign national borders, which fall under the purview of the federal government.  You cannot have a nation unless you control these things, as they are foundational. 

 

you can do far better national security policing by taking equivalent funds and giving them to intelligence agencies and law enforcement

 

This is a bare assertion and has nothing to do with a libertarian argument.

 

a static

emplacement like a wall is useless against catapults shooting drugs over the border, vast networks of cartel tunnels, air drops, naval crossings, smuggling through our ports and is just an god awful waste of money for an extremely limited and stationary structure

 

Again, this has nothing to do with a libertarian argument; and disregards that fact the wall, no matter how stationary and single purposed, serves an expressly libertarian purpose.  It makes human trafficking much more difficult, and strikes a massive blow against modern day human slavery. 

 

[boyst]

1 hour ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I would feel worse for that, had there not been a bipartisan compromise offered, one that met Trumptard's demands, only he threw one of his patented little temper tantrums.

 

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/01/24/white-house-the-grahamflakedurbin-immigration-proposal-is-dead-to-us-n2438713

 

lol. The brain parasites that riddle you guys must be hitting your memory centers extra hard

He's your president for 6 more years.  You have 6 more years of that ass being tore up.  Might as well grab some lube, because you'll need it if you're this butthurt.

[TH3]

20 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

He's your president for 6 more years.  You have 6 more years of that ass being tore up.  Might as well grab some lube, because you'll need it if you're this butthurt.

You seem triggered broflake .........go find your safe place and relax!

[The_Dude]

Trump is doing nothing less than ensuring I vote for him in 2020. I dislike his foreign policy but his domestic policy is very much to my liking. 

 

Shut it down! Shut it down! 

[DC Tom]

50 minutes ago, TH3 said:

You seem triggered broflake .........go find your safe place and relax!

 

Gotta admit...first time I've seen "broflake," and it's pretty good... 

[Tiberius]

Oh brother, building a big stupid, useless, expensive wall doesn't violate libertarian principles?? 

 

Ha ha, I love libertarians! 

[plenzmd1]

so Fox and friends said negative words about Trump not shutting down the government and now he is reversing course? Is Steve Doocy in fact..... POTUS?

[B-Man]

7 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Gotta admit...first time I've seen "broflake," and it's pretty good... 

 

Tom, if I may ask.................

 

Every year when we have our "shut down the government" thread, you point out that a certain percentage of the government is not really affected,

 

and that all essential services continue unabated............what was that percent ?

 

 

 

 

 

.

[DC Tom]

4 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

Tom, if I may ask.................

 

Every year when we have our "shut down the government" thread, you point out that a certain percentage of the government is not really affected,

 

and that all essential services continue unabated............what was that percent ?

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

I don't exactly know.  Seems to me like 90%...but my offices are somehow never impacted (my current project is self-funded, so not subject to budget fights), so my perception is certainly biased.

 

Based on traffic patterns during shutdown, I'd say it's closer to 40%.  There's a lot that's considered critical or national security infrastructure that doesn't get shut down, including some you might not even think of (USDA inspectors, for example - plants can't run without an inspector on-site, so the entire meat industry would come to a screeching halt if FSIS shut down.) 

 

There's also a slight misunderstanding that it's not just civil servants being furloughed, it's non-critical government projects being suspended, meaning the contractors get furloughed as well.  HHS's 2018 contingency puts have the federal employees on furlough...but that could very well represent 2/3 of their projects, involving who knows how many contractors, plus downstream effects (e.g. researchers unable to start projects because of delayed grants.)

 

It all gets very messy and ridiculous.  But 40%, head-count-wise, is probably a good rule of thumb.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

Chuck and Nancy are at the mics now announcing if they made a deal (sounds like they didn't). 

Chuck and Nancy's press conference is hilarious.

[TH3]

7 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 

Chuck and Nancy are at the mics now announcing if they made a deal (sounds like they didn't). 

Chuck and Nancy's press conference is hilarious.

Well....the 2013 shutdown gave us the budget parameters that greatly slowed deficit spending....that DT and the GOP recently blew up....and whether this is shutdown or not we get an inefficient use of funds that we were not to pay for.....but at least find it funny

[Deranged Rhino]

 Chuck is now complaining about the generals leaving - after two years of fear mongering over "why has Trump surrounded himself with generals?!" 

 

Trump has broken both of these people. And it's wonderful to see. 

[Deranged Rhino]

...But Nancy told us there wasn't the votes in the House to pass his bill?

 

 

 

 

[Wacka]

Hey dems- Don't want a shutdown?  Vote for the bill in the senate. If there is one its the dems fault now.

[RaoulDuke79]

Shut the ***** down for all I care. A bunch of succubus' on society. Once it's shut down we'll see how useless it is.  Nothing but a bunch of paper pushers and bought and paid for frauds. The only people that will give a ***** are the people who rely on the government to exist. 

[Buffalo_Gal]

Welp, the Schumer shutdown is upon us. Will Chuckie blink?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Welp, the Schumer shutdown is upon us. Will Chuckie blink?

I just hope as my representative, he sticks to his principle. 

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I just hope as my representative, he sticks to his principle. 

And I hope as my representative  ? he does what is in the best interest of the country - fund border security.  Schumer is all about the optics. If they spin it in the media hard enough that it appears to be favoring the Democrats, he will hold his ground. If the polls come in that the Ds in Congress are to blame.... well, we shall see. 

I can't help but think that the 156K people who have donated to that gofundme so far may have some Congress people nervous. Not the money donated - the fact that 156K people have spoken with their wallets in the last three days, all with gofundme trying their level best to keep it off the front page,  and taking it off "trending" (it is accumulating some ridiculous amount per minute, but again, it is the number of people, not the donation amount).

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

On 12/11/2018 at 3:37 PM, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Well, I have to admit that Schumer is laying it on thick, and I have little love for these two. But let's give credit where credit is due.

 

Mr. 45 has owned any impending shutdown.

 

https://thepoliticalinsider.com/trump-shutdown/

 

All I'm going to say is this: while the Republicans control both houses of Congress, and the executive branch until January 3rd...when it will control two of those three.

 

If they can't do anything until then, then yeah, the president needs to own up to his comments about how shutdowns are the president's fault.

Let's give credit where credit is due.

 

Looks like DJT sold his stake in the "impending shutdown" to a guy from Brooklyn named  Chuckie, and revealed that his gf Nancy is blissfully unaware about what's happening in House she's moving into. 

 

In the meantime, this serves as a reminder as to why you have to sit at the kids table. 

50 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

And I hope as my representative  ? he does what is in the best interest of the country - fund border security.  Schumer is all about the optics. If they spin it in the media hard enough that it appears to be favoring the Democrats, he will hold his ground. If the polls come in that the Ds in Congress are to blame.... well, we shall see. 

I can't help but think that the 156K people who have donated to that gofundme so far may have some Congress people nervous. Not the money donated - the fact that 156K people have spoken with their wallets in the last three days, all with gofundme trying their level best to keep it off the front page,  and taking it off "trending" (it is accumulating some ridiculous amount per minute, but again, it is the number of people, not the donation amount).

I lost hope long ago that schumer and the vast majority of the senate will do what's in the best interest of the country, but now I'm a bit embarrassed by my reply. You're spot on with this one. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[plenzmd1]

51 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

And I hope as my representative  ? he does what is in the best interest of the country - 
I

 

would you not hope the POTUS also does the same? you know as well as I do this all comes cause Trump listens to/takes direction from Fox News..does that not scare the hell out of you? He has flipped 180 degrees once his BFFs on Fox and friends flipped out..no worries on your end?

Edited December 21, 2018 by plenzmd1

[B-Man]

Quote

 

Mark Meadows‏Verified account @RepMarkMeadows 3h3 hours ago

Just submitted this letter to the CAO, in advance of the government funding deadline. Members of Congress shouldn't be paid when the government isn't open. If there is a shutdown, I will not be accepting any of my salary for as long as it lasts.

 

 

 

 

.

[Q-baby!]

Is Mexico pissed that they have to spend more than 5 billion on the wall? 

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

would you not hope the POTUS also does the same? you know as well as I do this all comes cause Trump listens to/takes direction from Fox News..

 

Seriously?

 

First. show me the evidence that Trump takes direction from anyone.  Then we can talk about "who."

[ExiledInIllinois]

5 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Seriously?

 

First. show me the evidence that Trump takes direction from anyone.  Then we can talk about "who."

TV Ratings:  From 2017

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/president-trump-cant-stop-mentioning-television-ratings-1050094

[Deranged Rhino]

... If it's a reconciliation it's a simple majority. 51, not 60, needed. Unless it's not a reconciliation?

[Buffalo_Gal]

44 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

... If it's a reconciliation it's a simple majority. 51, not 60, needed. Unless it's not a reconciliation?

 

I think they need the 60. I have not seen anyone suggest otherwise.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Buffalo_Gal
Autocorrect sucks

[Nanker]

3 hours ago, BigMcD said:

Is Mexico pissed that they have to spend more than 5 billion on the wall? 

I heard that the US State Department is GIVING Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador a total of $10 BILLION. Mexico’s money is for their southern boarder “infrastructure“.  

 

We cant get the Dems to pony up $5 Billion to find our border security, but we can give away twice that much to foreign countries that are corrupt and the source of much of our immigration issues?  

How can US tax dollars be collected and used for this while our basic national security goes lacking?

[ALF]

A small fraction of the massive tax cut could have fully funded the border wall and high tech surveillance . I don't understand Trump's priorities at all. 

[Nanker]

Well, you are rather dim and all. 

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

... If it's a reconciliation it's a simple majority. 51, not 60, needed. Unless it's not a reconciliation?

I'm pretty sure it's too late for that with all the procedures it has to go through and then would have to be sent back to the House where a Democratic majority will be waiting.  Pry would've been a smart move right after the November midterms.  I don't know if they get 50 Republican Senator votes though if it was the full 25 billion Trump requested.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Doc Brown

[ALF]

, it is important to point out that you can’t use reconciliation for just anything.

 

First of all, budget reconciliation can only be brought up a maximum of three times per year per budget resolution.

 

Also, Congress has banned reconciliation from being used to increase deficits.

 

Finally, the largest restriction on budget reconciliation is the Byrd Rule, which was named after its chief sponsor, the late Senator Robert Byrd (D-W.V.).

 

This allows senators to block provisions of reconciliation bills that are extraneous to reconciliation’s basic purpose of implementing budget changes. This deters committees receiving reconciliation directives to add a wide range of unrelated provisions that could lead to more controversy.

 

http://www.ncsl.org/blog/2017/01/13/how-the-congressional-reconciliation-process-works.aspx

[plenzmd1]

4 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

Seriously?

 

First. show me the evidence that Trump takes direction from anyone.  Then we can talk about "who."

seriously? Your house ain't got no TV to watch or Internet to read? ( if you are not a  fan of Tony Kornheiser, that last sentence won't make any sense)

 

It has been widely, massively reported that Trump spends most of his morning watching, calling in, cheering, being interviewed by FNF, and other Fox News programs. I know you know this. Also reported he has a nighly call with Hannity .

 

 

Tuesday morning, Sanders announces Trump will approve spending bill with no wall funding

Wednesday morning FNF goes crazy on Trump..and actually asks Conway some hard questions about why Trump is "losing" to the Dems

Thursday more blasting by FNF over Syria...

 

Thursday afternoon, Trump flips back to won't sign the spending bill.

 

 

yes, Trump did not come out and say I am flipping my position for the 3rd time in 4 days cause Fox is being mean to me......but I have a sneaking suspicion you are smart enough to link the two

 

Can you show me evidence he is NOT listening to making decisions based on what FSF says?