Is this a playoff team with Tyrod?

[billsfan1959]

Just now, Stank_Nasty said:

again you cant separate your thoughts on the move from him and if we would be a better team.... not many people will argue it wasn't the right move. I liked the trade. but if you stick strictly to the topic, yes the team would probably be at the tail end of the hunt with a turnover free qb and this defense with most of the heavy hitters in their schedule gone.

 

you cant seem to separate your thoughts on moving on from him and the topic at hand.

I can separate my thoughts. My separate thoughts are (1) it was the right move to trade him and (2) I do not think this team would be much better with Tyrod at QB. Those are two separate thoughts. That is just my opinion. 

2 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

some people are having a hard time separating the actual topic here and whether or not they think we should have kept him or not.

 

2 totally different topics.

Because somebody doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean they are incapable of understanding the topic.

[Stank_Nasty]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

I can separate my thoughts. My separate thoughts are (1) it was the right move to trade him and (2) I do not think this team would be much better with Tyrod at QB. Those are two separate thoughts. That is just my opinion. 

I agree with 1... and number 2 partially. I think we would maybe be 2 wins better(AT LEAST 1)… and with 2 wins that puts us at .500 and in the thick of it with this schedule.

 

 

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

The real question is simple:  Would you rather have Tyrod right now to MAYBE help contend for the last wild card spot before he leaves for nothing as a FA at end of the year...or Edmunds for the next decade quarterbacking and anchoring our defense?

The real question is if Tyrod makes us to the playoffs this year per the OP, to which you said yes right?

 

Outside the OP I guess I agree but I just want young players learning how to win.. Tyrod doesn't prevent Edmunds: we wasted a 3rd on KB.. trading Tyrod for a 3rd and spending a 3rd on KB. It's a wash. We could have Tyrod and no KB and everything else the same. We had a crapload of 3rd rounders haha, a 3rd wasn't going to stop us from getting Edmunds and Allen. Tossing one at KB was a bad idea. Not a fan of the 3rd we used in the draft just yet either.

Edited November 16, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Steptide]

1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I bet you were screaming to put peterman in weren't you?

 

i'll take the wins and the rookie qb sitting and learning with the potential to earn the job if the starter struggles any day of the week over what this year has been. I don't even know how anyone could argue otherwise.

Definitely wasn't screaming for Peterman in the jags game. 

 

Just different opinions. You believe it's be beneficial for him to sit and learn, I believe it's better for him to be out there playing and learning 

[iinii]

3 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Lets not forget than McDermott took over the defense play calling at the half 

For a reason!!!

 

I was referring to last year, tongue in cheek, but why so serious?

[CuddyDark]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

#1 running game right?  Taylor makes that much of a difference I guess. 

So I take it you haven't seen the last 3 yrs?

[Mojo44]

15 hours ago, KzooMike said:

We have almost a carbon copy of last years team in an even weaker playoff battle. With Tyrod I think it would have been back to back playoff years. Give him two turnovers in a game and he wins more often than not. No, I don't think he's good. But what he does do is protect the ball, enhance the running game, and to some extent mask poor offensive line play. Whats even more silly about the whole thing is he gets traded to the exact same situation he would have faced here. Perhaps he would have had the same fate in Buffalo he has in Cleveland if he was retained. I know Taylor has been talked to nauseous levels. I just find the thought process on this interesting and I'm curious what others think. Is this a playoff team with Taylor?   

It wasn’t a playoff team last year with Taylor. This team made the playoffs not because of Taylor, in spite of him!!! When will this narrative ever end that Taylor is anything but a horrid NFL starting quarterback. For all of his negative traits they all add up to one big one: he’s an absolute total 100% loser! I know this isn’t going to stop. But, come on man!

[CuddyDark]

1 hour ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

That’s why the bills were 29th in yards in 2017 ? 

 

Too much emotion, not enough facts 

Rushing?

[nedboy7]

2 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

 

The guys who wanna pay 16 mil for a guy who gets benched after 2.5 weeks ☝?☝?☝?

 

 

 

He got benched when we went 9-7?  

No need to argue w you. 

You have something personal against the guy. 

[LSHMEAB]

4 hours ago, Dopey said:

Sure it does.

Do animals in the woods count as observers? 

You just blew my mind!

[jrober38]

2 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

I think Mayfield was expected to be one of the few qbs in the draft who could plausibly contribute right away. Rosen was also considered more advanced, but so far his play does not strongly advance that argument. The coaching change in Cleveland seems to have opened up the offense and Mayfield has more talent to work with. One can't really compare Mayfield's progress with Allen who is recovering from an injury. A fair grader would give an incomplete there, not an implied pejorative. Everyone knew going in Allen needed a lot more development. Most likely scenario (and it's not ridiculous) is that Allen gets through next year to show if he is a future franchise qb or not.

 

Allen will get as long as Beane and McDermott are employed at OBD, as I assume their fates are tied to one another. 

 

The only thing I'll add is that guys like Allen, who need considerable development before they're ready to contribute, hardly ever work out in the NFL.

 

I mean, when was the last time a successful 1st round NFL QB took more than a year to show they were really good? Most guys show they can play pretty much as soon as they get on the field. 

 

The only real exception I can think of is Jared Goff who was as bad as Allen his rookie year who went on to be really good. 

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

So I take it you haven't seen the last 3 yrs?

 

Well yes, I have seen the last 3 years.

Great in 2015 and 2016 and above average.

 

How does Taylor give us the #1 rushing attack with the absence of Incognito and Wood replaced by Ducasse (benched)/Groy (benched)/Bodine who is simply not good?

McCoy wasn't every good before Taylor or something?

 

[jrober38]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I know we have one of the worst offenses in NFL history.  You're assuming with a regressed of talent, especially at the offensive line, we wouldn't have continued to regress even with Taylor under center.  We wouldn't average 19 points per game with him here and the talent he has.  

 

Dude, we lost three offensive linemen. Everyone else is the same as last year. 

 

I have a really hard time believing those three guys are worth 6 points per game on offense. That's pretty much impossible. Losing them shouldn't have reduced our offensive scoring by 30%. 

 

Our offensive scoring is at the bottom of the NFL because we have the worst group of QBs in the league. It's not complicated. 

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

And I am sure Taylor's 49% completion percentage, 5.6 yd passing avg, and 64 rating before he was benched (which, since you are so into stats, is NOT significantly better than what Allen posted) would have made this offense sooooooo much better. Talk about nonsensical.

 

The fact that you want to try and draw conclusions from 40 pass attempts, and ignore the rest of his career is hysterical. 

[Teddy KGB]

18 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Rushing?

 

Googled 2017 Buffalo Bills offense and it stated 29th. 

[jrober38]

20 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

So I take it you haven't seen the last 3 yrs?

 

They just ignore basic stats.

 

It's unbelievable that Bills fans would not be in touch with how historically horrific the offense has been this season.

For all the terrible offense we've seen over the past 15 years, this has been far and away the worst one this franchise has fielded over that time. 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Dude, we lost three offensive linemen. Everyone else is the same as last year. 

 

I have a really hard time believing those three guys are worth 6 points per game on offense. That's pretty much impossible. Losing them shouldn't have reduced our offensive scoring by 30%. 

 

Our offensive scoring is at the bottom of the NFL because we have the worst group of QBs in the league. It's not complicated. 

 

We dipped 6 points per game from our 2016 season to 2017.  We dipped 6 points per game average now from last year (this year isn't completed).

And no, it's not impossible when your offense is based on running the football and you've got guys now upfront who can't create holes or get any push in the run game.

 

We lost talent from 2016 to 2017 and again in 2018....there is a pattern.  

[LSHMEAB]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

He's on the bench because he played terribly.  The plan was to have Taylor start this year.

What makes you think that Taylor would have been any different this year in Buffalo?  He has better weapons on offense in Cleveland and was terrible.  He's regressed every year since 2015.

That's a really awful spot to be in as a quarterback. The entire city/organization is waiting for Mayfield to play. 

 

Didn't work out very well for Sam Bradford either, who some on this board seem to want to bring in. Things that make you go hmmm.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

They just ignore basic stats.

 

It's unbelievable that Bills fans would not be in touch with how historically horrific the offense has been this season.

For all the terrible offense we've seen over the past 15 years, this has been far and away the worst one this franchise has fielded over that time. 

 

I don't think anyone is saying that this offense isn't historically bad.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We dipped 6 points per game from our 2016 season to 2017.  We dipped 6 points per game average now from last year (this year isn't completed).

And no, it's not impossible when your offense is based on running the football and you've got guys now upfront who can't create holes or get any push in the run game.

 

We lost talent from 2016 to 2017 and again in 2018....there is a pattern.  

 

Yet Taylor's QB Rating was unchanged from 2016 to 2017.....

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Dude, we lost three offensive linemen. Everyone else is the same as last year. 

 

I have a really hard time believing those three guys are worth 6 points per game on offense. That's pretty much impossible. Losing them shouldn't have reduced our offensive scoring by 30%. 

 

Our offensive scoring is at the bottom of the NFL because we have the worst group of QBs in the league. It's not complicated. 

 

The fact that you want to try and draw conclusions from 40 pass attempts, and ignore the rest of his career is hysterical. 

Actually, I haven't ignored his NFL career at all. It has been exactly what I said it was: Mediocre. It has led him to where he is now: On his 3rd team in 8 years and riding the bench. Apparently NFL head coaches and General Managers of three teams don't agree with you.

 

BTW, drawing conclusions about a rookie QB from 139 pass attempts is beyond ridiculous.

 

You are the very thing you rail against.

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Actually, I haven't ignored his NFL career at all. It has been exactly what I said it was: Mediocre. It has led him to where he is now: On his 3rd team in 8 years and riding the bench. Apparently NFL head coaches and General Managers of three teams don't agree with you.

 

BTW, drawing conclusions about a rookie QB from 139 pass attempts is beyond ridiculous.

 

You are the very thing you rail against.

 

Allen has been everything his scouting report said he'd be. He's been the same player for the Bills as he was for Wyoming. Inconsistent accuracy, poor decision making, walks into sacks, tries to escape the pocket too early, doesn't throw with anticipation, etc. That's what we've seen all year with him in a Bills uniform and it's what he showed for 2.5 years at Wyoming.  

 

Josh Allen is not close to being a competent NFL QB yet. He has to improve enormously just to get to the point where he'd be considered average as a starter, let alone getting to the level of a franchise QB who can actually win games.

 

I'm excited to see what he learned by sitting on the bench for a month, watching tape, and learning. Will things slow down against the Jags, or will he be the same skittish QB we saw at the beginning of the season who struggled to throw for 100 yards a game? 

Edited November 16, 2018 by jrober38

[Foxx]

15 hours ago, KzooMike said:

... Is this a playoff team with Taylor?   

who.

the.

*****.

cares.

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I can point to only 1 game where we may win instead of lose.  That'd put as at 4-6.  If we lose some close games down the line maybe?  but we're still a sub.500 team at this juncture with him on the team.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

Yet Taylor's QB Rating was unchanged from 2016 to 2017.....

 

Great...offense still dipped 6 points per game.  Now give Taylor even less talent...is it really impossible to think we wouldn't continue to slide down?

in Taylors last 8 games started between Buffalo/CLE, the offense he was running scored a total of 9 offensive TD's.  Again...it's impossible the trend doesn't continue to go down?

 

**I chose the last 5 of Buffalo's game after his benching in LA and the first 3 games with CLE**

[billsfan1959]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

Allen has been everything his scouting report said he'd be. He's been the same player for the Bills as he was for Wyoming. Inconsistent accuracy, poor decision making, walks into sacks, tries to escape the pocket too early, doesn't throw with anticipation, etc. That's what we've seen all year. 

 

Josh Allen is not close to being a competent NFL QB yet. He has to improve enormously just to get to the point where he'd be considered average as a starter, let alone a franchise QB who can actually win games.

 

I'm excited to see what he learned by sitting on the bench for a month, watching tape, and learning. Will things slow down against the Jags, or will he be the same skittish QB we saw at the beginning of the season who struggled to throw for 100 yards a game? 

What he was in college is irrelevant at this point. He will succeed or fail based on what he does in the NFL. Nobody knows what that will be right now. Drawing any long-term conclusions based on 20 quarters of play and 139 attempts is nonsensical. I will wait to see how he progresses the remainder of this season and next year before drawing any difinitive conclusions. As far as Taylor? I wish him well; however, IMO, he is not and was not the answer for this team.

[BuffaloHokie13]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Great...offense still dipped 6 points per game.  Now give Taylor even less talent...is it really impossible to think we wouldn't continue to slide down?

in Taylors last 8 games started between Buffalo/CLE, the offense he was running scored a total of 9 offensive TD's.  Again...it's impossible the trend doesn't continue to go down?

 

**I chose the last 5 of Buffalo's game after his benching in LA and the first 3 games with CLE**

Considering we just ended a streak of over 50 drives starting in our territory without a single TD, I'd take a TD per game!

[Royale with Cheese]

13 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Allen has been everything his scouting report said he'd be. He's been the same player for the Bills as he was for Wyoming. Inconsistent accuracy, poor decision making, walks into sacks, tries to escape the pocket too early, doesn't throw with anticipation, etc. That's what we've seen all year with him in a Bills uniform and it's what he showed for 2.5 years at Wyoming.  

 

Josh Allen is not close to being a competent NFL QB yet. He has to improve enormously just to get to the point where he'd be considered average as a starter, let alone getting to the level of a franchise QB who can actually win games.

 

I'm excited to see what he learned by sitting on the bench for a month, watching tape, and learning. Will things slow down against the Jags, or will he be the same skittish QB we saw at the beginning of the season who struggled to throw for 100 yards a game? 

 

So Taylor as a vet with 3 games this season is too small of a sample size to draw any conclusion but Allen a rookie with 5 games....there's enough there?

 

[blacklabel]

I don't think so, and that's because of the losses of Wood and Incognito and the subsequent OL shuffling they've done. No offense to the current OL but it took until the 10th game (and even more shuffling of players as Ducasse was benched for Teller) for them to get Shady going. A lot of Taylor's success was predicated on the run game being successful from the start and then allowing Taylor to do play-action and take shots down the field in the right situations.

 

His ability to improvise and escape pressure is something he's really good at and it was something that certainly helps him but with the OL struggles, he would've been bailing on the pocket much sooner than normal. That screws with a QBs internal clock and can throw off their timing and whatnot.

 

And before everyone wants to crown Barkley, keep in mind, this is a dude on his fifth team in six seasons. The most playing time he had was 2016 in Chicago where he started 6 games and threw 8 TDs to 14 INTs. The Jets dropped two INTs last Sunday as well. He doesn't have a great arm. He can throw the ball with pretty nice touch and is fairly accurate but you're never really gonna see him zipping the ball into tight windows and while I'm sure he's a confident player, I don't think he's a "carry the team on his back" kinda guy who comes through in clutch situations. He's a decent backup, though. Much better than Peterman and hopefully his experiences with a number of different teams and coaches can be valuable information he can share with Allen. 

[MJS]

How many playoff teams did we have with Tyrod? Only one. Most of Tyrod's time here was spent with a far better oline and better receivers.

 

So no, I think Tyrod would not make a huge difference.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

No

[Royale with Cheese]

21 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

I don't think so, and that's because of the losses of Wood and Incognito and the subsequent OL shuffling they've done. No offense to the current OL but it took until the 10th game (and even more shuffling of players as Ducasse was benched for Teller) for them to get Shady going. A lot of Taylor's success was predicated on the run game being successful from the start and then allowing Taylor to do play-action and take shots down the field in the right situations.

 

His ability to improvise and escape pressure is something he's really good at and it was something that certainly helps him but with the OL struggles, he would've been bailing on the pocket much sooner than normal. That screws with a QBs internal clock and can throw off their timing and whatnot.

 

And before everyone wants to crown Barkley, keep in mind, this is a dude on his fifth team in six seasons. The most playing time he had was 2016 in Chicago where he started 6 games and threw 8 TDs to 14 INTs. The Jets dropped two INTs last Sunday as well. He doesn't have a great arm. He can throw the ball with pretty nice touch and is fairly accurate but you're never really gonna see him zipping the ball into tight windows and while I'm sure he's a confident player, I don't think he's a "carry the team on his back" kinda guy who comes through in clutch situations. He's a decent backup, though. Much better than Peterman and hopefully his experiences with a number of different teams and coaches can be valuable information he can share with Allen. 

 

[CuddyDark]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Well yes, I have seen the last 3 years.

Great in 2015 and 2016 and above average.

 

How does Taylor give us the #1 rushing attack with the absence of Incognito and Wood replaced by Ducasse (benched)/Groy (benched)/Bodine who is simply not good?

McCoy wasn't every good before Taylor or something?

 

It's not about McCoy vs TT it's about the yards TT would average as a runner along with McCoy. TT averaged around 35 rushing yards per game. I'm not doing the math but if we say he adds 200 rush yrd to this point, we'd be top 5 rushing.

1 hour ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Googled 2017 Buffalo Bills offense and it stated 29th. 

6th in rushing.

[CuddyDark]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

They just ignore basic stats.

 

It's unbelievable that Bills fans would not be in touch with how historically horrific the offense has been this season.

For all the terrible offense we've seen over the past 15 years, this has been far and away the worst one this franchise has fielded over that time. 

Absolutely agree 100%.

 

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Great...offense still dipped 6 points per game.  Now give Taylor even less talent...is it really impossible to think we wouldn't continue to slide down?

in Taylors last 8 games started between Buffalo/CLE, the offense he was running scored a total of 9 offensive TD's.  Again...it's impossible the trend doesn't continue to go down?

 

**I chose the last 5 of Buffalo's game after his benching in LA and the first 3 games with CLE**

Because they tried to make TT a pocket QB and took away the one thing teams feared in his play. He was more of a scrambler then a planned runner in 2017. 

[dgrochester55]

Conservatively, I would add only the Houston game as a win making the team 4-6     This would put us on the outside of the playoff hunt likely requiring a 5-1 finish.   Besides that, I am not sure which of the other game would have been won.    You could argue that Buffalo has a different game plan with a more established quarterback in the Indy, New England and Chicago games, but I would not assume that those were wins

 

This doesn't mean that I think Taylor is special, You could say the same thing in a scenario where buffalo kept McCarron or possibly even if they signed Anderson or Barkley on week 1.   

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Absolutely agree 100%.

 

Because they tried to make TT a pocket QB and took away the one thing teams feared in his play. He was more of a scrambler then a planned runner in 2017. 

 

Well that's what they started to do....keep him in the pocket.  Remember the "Make him play QB quote?"  

 

19 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

It's not about McCoy vs TT it's about the yards TT would average as a runner along with McCoy. TT averaged around 35 rushing yards per game. I'm not doing the math but if we say he adds 200 rush yrd to this point, we'd be top 5 rushing.

6th in rushing.

 

You're basing this like we are averaging 0 yards rushing from our QB's this year.  Allen through 6 games had 155 yards rushing....

[CuddyDark]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Well that's what they started to do....keep him in the pocket.  Remember the "Make him play QB quote?"  

 

I thought it was dumb from the start. If you have a thing a player does well do that until you get a franchise player in that position. Yet to be seen if JA is a franchise QB so for me it's another reason I believe this leadership is inept. TT at worst could be the backup and mentor for JA.

[The Red King]

5 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

TT would Have given us a chance in all of the Peterman debacles with many fewer turnovers.  The Colts and Texans could have been wins.  5-5 record at this point with TT would have given us a fair chance for a playoff birth.

 

You keep avoiding the question.  Lemmie spell it out.

 

Tyrod, putting up the numbers he did with Cleveland this season, would not have made us a playoff team.  Period.  So, what makes you think he would have done better with this season's Bills then he did with the Browns.

 

Sorry, 2018 Tyrod is not 2017 Tyrod.  TT on this year's Bills, with the loss of three linemen and severe lack of offensive weapons would not have done as well as he did last year...and last year's Tyrod laid an egg against the Saints, and could only put up 9 on CAR.  Not to mention that pitiful display in the JAX against a defense that surrendered far more to PIT and NE.

 

You're romantisizing, looking at less interceptions while assuming the remainder of the offensive production remains the same, and it just doesn't work that way.  Go watch Tyrod's Cleveland starts this year, then look me straight in the eye and tell me he could lead this team to the playoffs.

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, CuddyDark said:

I thought it was dumb from the start. If you have a thing a player does well do that until you get a franchise player in that position. Yet to be seen if JA is a franchise QB so for me it's another reason I believe this leadership is inept. TT at worst could be the backup and mentor for JA.

 

That quote was from a Raven's defensive player on how to stop Tyrod, not from us.  Same thing a Jets defensive player stated.

Taylor would be a very expensive back up or mentor.  He's making $10 million this year I believe.

[CuddyDark]

9 minutes ago, dgrochester55 said:

Conservatively, I would add only the Houston game as a win making the team 4-6     This would put us on the outside of the playoff hunt likely requiring a 5-1 finish.   Besides that, I am not sure which of the other game would have been won.    You could argue that Buffalo has a different game plan with a more established quarterback in the Indy, New England and Chicago games, but I would not assume that those were wins

 

This doesn't mean that I think Taylor is special, You could say the same thing in a scenario where buffalo kept McCarron or possibly even if they signed Anderson or Barkley on week 1.   

We had the Packers on the ropes too. And in other games I don't think we have as many turnovers so in a close game who knows?

1 minute ago, The Red King said:

 

You keep avoiding the question.  Lemmie spell it out.

 

Tyrod, putting up the numbers he did with Cleveland this season, would not have made us a playoff team.  Period.  So, what makes you think he would have done better with this season's Bills then he did with the Browns.

 

Sorry, 2018 Tyrod is not 2017 Tyrod.  TT on this year's Bills, with the loss of three linemen and severe lack of offensive weapons would not have done as well as he did last year...and last year's Tyrod laid an egg against the Saints, and could only put up 9 on CAR.  Not to mention that pitiful display in the JAX against a defense that surrendered far more to PIT and NE.

 

You're romantisizing, looking at less interceptions while assuming the remainder of the offensive production remains the same, and it just doesn't work that way.  Go watch Tyrod's Cleveland starts this year, then look me straight in the eye and tell me he could lead this team to the playoffs.

You guys are the same people who told us the offense would be better if TT left.

[The Red King]

2 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

We had the Packers on the ropes too. And in other games I don't think we have as many turnovers so in a close game who knows?

You guys are the same people who told us the offense would be better if TT left.

 

Nobody wants to answer the question...

 

Why do you think Tyrod would have performed better with the 2018 Bills' offense then he did with the Browns?

 

...i can understand Tyrod supporters trying very hard to act like his Cleveland stint never happened.