Is this a playoff team with Tyrod?

[jrober38]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

So Taylor as a vet with 3 games this season is too small of a sample size to draw any conclusion but Allen a rookie with 5 games....there's enough there?

 

 

As I said, Allen is the same guy dating back to his 2.5 years at Wyoming where he threw 650 passes.

 

All the things he showed on tape there he shows on tape for us on a weekly basis, and it's not good enough. 

[CuddyDark]

Just now, The Red King said:

 

Nobody wants to answer the question...

 

Why do you think Tyrod would have performed better with the 2018 Bills' offense then he did with the Browns?

 

...i can understand Tyrod supporters trying very hard to act like his Cleveland stint never happened.

I think I've answered this several times. TT would be better than the Bills QBs. TT is not better than Mayfield.

[Teddy KGB]

32 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

It's not about McCoy vs TT it's about the yards TT would average as a runner along with McCoy. TT averaged around 35 rushing yards per game. I'm not doing the math but if we say he adds 200 rush yrd to this point, we'd be top 5 rushing.

6th in rushing.

 

29th in overall yards due your manses 

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

As I said, Allen is the same guy dating back to his 2.5 years at Wyoming where he threw 650 passes.

 

All the things he showed on tape there he shows on tape for us on a weekly basis, and it's not good enough. 

 

Okay so you stand by your statement then right?  Okay.  There's just too small of a sample size for Taylor in Cleveland but enough on Allen in Buffalo to draw conclusions.

[transplantbillsfan]

Who knows?

 

But we'd have more wins.

 

We still have 6 games to go so maybe this is an interesting question to end the season.  But it's very, very obvious that Beane and McDermott completely screwed the pooch on the QB position, and I'm sure if they could see the future and knew the offseason and beginning of this year would unfold the way it did, they would have kept Taylor.

 

We have the 2nd most turnovers in the NFL.

 

What did Taylor do well?

 

This is a simple equation.

 

Our passing game might not have been great, but we wouldn't have turned the ball over nearly as much as we have.  And I can't find a statistic for "points off turnovers," but I'm sure we're right up there for that, too.

 

I haven't even looked at anyone's posts in here, but I imagine people are saying things like, "are you crazy?!?!  No, Taylor sucked!  We'd still suck!"

 

Those people, if they're saying anything resembling that, are naive.

 

We might not be a playoff team with Taylor, but right now we'd sit at probably  at least 1 or 2 more wins than we have, which would put us squarely in the playoff picture.

 

 

And before anyone cites the Vikings game or Jets game saying Taylor never would have matched the offensive output we got in both of those games, notice the fact that our defense nearly pitched shut outs in both of those games.  We still would have won both of those games with those performances with Taylor.

 

Playoffs with Taylor?  Maybe.  At least we never would have seen the 13 combined turnovers from DA and Nathan Peterman that happened in the 5 total games the 2 of them played in, all of which were losses. 

[Augie]

9 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

As I said, Allen is the same guy dating back to his 2.5 years at Wyoming where he threw 650 passes.

 

All the things he showed on tape there he shows on tape for us on a weekly basis, and it's not good enough. 

 

Nobody expected it would be good enough at this point. They are gambling that they can mold him into something that WILL BE good enough. You seem to very very doubtful (at best) they can do it. I have my own reservations but I’ll remain hopeful, because that’s all I can do. But nobody knows for sure yet. So we wait and pray..... 

 

 

. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Augie

[billsfan1959]

14 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

I thought it was dumb from the start. If you have a thing a player does well do that until you get a franchise player in that position. Yet to be seen if JA is a franchise QB so for me it's another reason I believe this leadership is inept. TT at worst could be the backup and mentor for JA.

Although, if that player is a QB, it would be nice if one of the things he did well was actually be a QB. Just sayin'

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Okay so you stand by your statement then right?  Okay.  There's just too small of a sample size for Taylor in Cleveland but enough on Allen in Buffalo to draw conclusions.

 

You've completely missed the point.

 

I'm looking at each guys FULL body of work.

 

Allen looks no different now than he did at Wyoming. He's inaccurate, can't read a defense, leaves the pocket too early, walks into sacks when he doesn't feel where pressure is coming from, and just generally does very little to move an offense. 

 

This is the guy on tape for 2.5 years and 650 pass attempts at Wyoming. People are grossly underestimating how far he has to go just to be an average NFL QB. 

 

I'm not just evaluating Allen as a Bill; I'm evaluating him going back to his time at Wyoming and there's been no improvement of his play on a football field since 2016. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by jrober38

[The Red King]

3 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

I think I've answered this several times. TT would be better than the Bills QBs. TT is not better than Mayfield.

 

Did...you actually *read* the question?  Because none of the above addresses it.  But, the fact that you realize you have to keep ducking the question because you know you can't answer it speaks volumes.  The thread doesn't ask if Tyrod is better then the Bills QBs.  It asks if he would make them a playoff team.

 

So, one more time...

 

Do you think the Bills are a playoff team if Tyrod puts up the numbers he did in Cleveland?  And if not, what makes you think he would put up better numbers with the 2018 Bills offense then he did with Cleveland's?

[CuddyDark]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

Although, if that player is a QB, it would be nice if one of the things he did well was actually be a QB. Just sayin'

Absolutely, but if that one thing helps break a 17 year PO drought I'm all for it.  

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

Nobody expected it would be good enough at this point. They are gambling that they can mold him into something that WILL BE good enough. You seem to very very doubtful (at best) they can do it. I have my own reservations but I’ll remain hopeful, because that’s all I can do. But nobody knows for sure yet. So we wait and pray..... 

 

Agreed. 

 

It was a huge gamble that probably won't work out.

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

As I said, Allen is the same guy dating back to his 2.5 years at Wyoming where he threw 650 passes.

 

All the things he showed on tape there he shows on tape for us on a weekly basis, and it's not good enough. 

Well, by your standard, you must be really disappointed in Rosen and Darnold. Given what they showed at their respective schools, they should be light years ahead of Allen, at this point, in the NFL. Hmmmm....

 

Maybe they are all just playing like rookies...

[CuddyDark]

Just now, The Red King said:

 

Did...you actually *read* the question?  Because none of the above addresses it.  But, the fact that you realize you have to keep ducking the question because you know you can't answer it speaks volumes.  The thread doesn't ask if Tyrod is better then the Bills QBs.  It asks if he would make them a playoff team.

 

So, one more time...

 

Do you think the Bills are a playoff team if Tyrod puts up the numbers he did in Cleveland?  And if not, what makes you think he would put up better numbers with the 2018 Bills offense then he did with Cleveland's?

The thread is a comparison of TT and Bills QBs. It's not about the Browns. You duck TT vs Bills QBs because you don't like the answer. If TT was with the Bills, he'd be better than the Bills QBs meaning they'd win more games. The Bills not the Browns. Would the Bills be better with TT is the question. The answer is YES.

[billsfan1959]

Just now, CuddyDark said:

Absolutely, but if that one thing helps break a 17 year PO drought I'm all for it.  

Some might argue that they broke the playoff drought in spite of Taylor being at the helm of the 31st ranked passing game - not because of it.

[longtimebillsfan]

11 minutes ago, The Red King said:

 

You keep avoiding the question.  Lemmie spell it out.

 

Tyrod, putting up the numbers he did with Cleveland this season, would not have made us a playoff team.  Period.  So, what makes you think he would have done better with this season's Bills then he did with the Browns.

 

Sorry, 2018 Tyrod is not 2017 Tyrod.  TT on this year's Bills, with the loss of three linemen and severe lack of offensive weapons would not have done as well as he did last year...and last year's Tyrod laid an egg against the Saints, and could only put up 9 on CAR.  Not to mention that pitiful display in the JAX against a defense that surrendered far more to PIT and NE.

 

You're romantisizing, looking at less interceptions while assuming the remainder of the offensive production remains the same, and it just doesn't work that way.  Go watch Tyrod's Cleveland starts this year, then look me straight in the eye and tell me he could lead this team to the playoffs.

Different team, different coaches.  I believe our OC would have created game plans to better utilize Taylors strengths.  You are obviously one of the Tyrod detractors.  I find it hilarious when people in the 2017 season would whine about Tyrod not throwing for 300 yards, even though we would win the game.  HE got us to the playoffs, and he was a big part of that.

 

Next you will say we backed in to the playoffs.  there is no such thing.  We won enough games to make the playoffs.  

 

You are beating a dead horse.  Tyrod is no longer on our team and he most likely never will be again.  Let it go......Please.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

Well, by your standard, you must be really disappointed in Rosen and Darnold. Given what they showed at their respective schools, they should be light years ahead of Allen, at this point, in the NFL. Hmmmm....

 

Maybe they are all just playing like rookies...

 

Or maybe they'll all be busts. NFL history suggests that's the more likely scenario. 

 

Mayfield was the guy I wanted. Never felt much for Darnold and thought Rosen's character issues were overblown. I'd have taken him at #7 over Allen, who I thought looked more like a 3rd round pick with upside than a guy you use a top 10 pick on. 

[Augie]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

Agreed. 

 

It was a huge gamble that probably won't work out.

 

This may be where I differ from many here, but if everything else stays on this trajectory in terms of franchise building, managing the cap, drafting, etc. I’d give them another shot at picking the QB. It’s a crap shoot for everybody! Please don’t start over if everything but QB is going in the right direction! 

[CuddyDark]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

Some might argue that they broke the playoff drought in spite of Taylor being at the helm of the 31st ranked passing game - not because of it.

We'll they don't have TT this year and the QB'ing is worse not better. I'd bet they don't make the PO or go .500 without TT.

[Hurricane]

Get out of the past.  

[CuddyDark]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

This may be where I differ from many here, but if everything else stays on this trajectory in terms of franchise building, managing the cap, drafting, etc. I’d give them another shot at picking the QB. It’s a crap shoot for everybody! Please don’t start over if everything but QB is going in the right direction! 

If they fire Beane I'd agree with you.

[Augie]

Just now, CuddyDark said:

We'll they don't have TT this year and the QB'ing is worse not better. I'd bet they don't make the PO or go .500 without TT.

 

It’s OK by me to take a step back in the hopes of going 10 steps forward. It’s agamble, but we knew that. 

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

Or maybe they'll all be busts. NFL history suggests that's the more likely scenario. 

 

Mayfield was the guy I wanted. Never felt much for Darnold and thought Rosen's character issues were overblown. I'd have taken him at #7 over Allen, who I thought looked more like a 3rd round pick with upside than a guy you use a top 10 pick on. 

Or maybe they will all be very good. That is the point. We aren't going to know for awhile. Drawing conclusions at this point are futile, at best.

[jr1]

The Bills have thrown 16 interceptions this season

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

This may be where I differ from many here, but if everything else stays on this trajectory in terms of franchise building, managing the cap, drafting, etc. I’d give them another shot at picking the QB. It’s a crap shoot for everybody! Please don’t start over if everything but QB is going in the right direction! 

Absolutely. I like the direction things are going. Let's wait and see on Allen

[CuddyDark]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

It’s OK by me to take a step back in the hopes of going 10 steps forward. It’s agamble, but we knew that. 

I don't believe in hope.

Just now, jr1 said:

The Bills have thrown 16 interceptions this season

How many did TT throw in 3 years?

[jrober38]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

It’s OK by me to take a step back in the hopes of going 10 steps forward. It’s agamble, but we knew that. 

 

I disagree.

 

It was a huge gamble where they went all in on Josh Allen.

 

They were so confident in him as a prospect, they traded the #12 pick (ie: #21 pick, Cordy Glenn) and two second round picks to move up for him. 

 

If he doesn't work out, you don't get another shot. You don't get off the hook for taking the guy every advanced analytic said would be a total bust and get the opportunity to do it all over again. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by jrober38

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

We'll they don't have TT this year and the QB'ing is worse not better. I'd bet they don't make the PO or go .500 without TT.

I would say there was a down turn in play at almost every position on offense. I do not believe Taylor would have altered that. It is pure speculation and we all have our opinions. We will never know because he is sitting on the bench in Cleveland.

[xsoldier54]

Just stop.  Taylor sucks.  The Bills finally realized it and Cleveland did it in even less time.

[CuddyDark]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

I disagree.

 

It was a huge gamble where they went all in on Josh Allen.

 

They were so confident in him as a prospect, they essentially traded the #21 pick, Cordy Glenn, and two second round picks to move up for him. 

 

If he doesn't work out, you don't get another shot.

 

You don't get off the hook for taking the guy every advanced analytic said would be a total bust and get the opportunity to do it all over again. 

I agree for Beane. I'd give McDermott a real GM who takes his QB but if it's all on McDermott then I'm with you.

[BuffaloHokie13]

11 minutes ago, The Red King said:

So, one more time...

 

Do you think the Bills are a playoff team if Tyrod puts up the numbers he did in Cleveland?  And if not, what makes you think he would put up better numbers with the 2018 Bills offense then he did with Cleveland's?

How is this relevant to the question? Nobody on the Browns is on the Bills. His production with that cast has nothing to do with his production, hypothetical or otherwise, with the Bills.

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I disagree.

 

It was a huge gamble where they went all in on Josh Allen.

 

They were so confident in him as a prospect, they essentially traded the #21 pick, Cordy Glenn, and two second round picks to move up for him. 

 

If he doesn't work out, you don't get another shot.

 

You don't get off the hook for taking the guy every advanced analytic said would be a total bust and get the opportunity to do it all over again. 

It is a huge gamble with, virtually, every QB. You have absolutely no idea which one will pan out and which one will not. You have thought Allen was going to be a bust since he was drafted. You are hardly an objective observer.

[The Red King]

5 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Different team, different coaches.  I believe our OC would have created game plans to better utilize Taylors strengths.  You are obviously one of the Tyrod detractors.  I find it hilarious when people in the 2017 season would whine about Tyrod not throwing for 300 yards, even though we would win the game.  HE got us to the playoffs, and he was a big part of that.

 

Next you will say we backed in to the playoffs.  there is no such thing.  We won enough games to make the playoffs.  

 

You are beating a dead horse.  Tyrod is no longer on our team and he most likely never will be again.  Let it go......Please.

 

Ah, assumptions.  If ya ain't for us, yer 'gainst us!

 

Check my post history.  I actually started a forum post titled The Bills did not back into the playoffs.  I repeatedly stated Tyrod was a mediocre QB, capable of elevating a bad team and dragging down a good one.  When traded I said it was a good move for both teams and said he was just what they needed until Mayfield was ready.  I said the Bills outgrew him, I never said any other QB would be an improvement.  So, basically, all your assumptions are wrong, and the proof is right here on the board.

 

I understand, it's easier to write someone off as a hater, that way you don't have to address their points.  In this case, Tyrod's tenure as Cleveland starter.  You persist in handwaving that off like it never happened, ignoring it, insisting he would have played like the 2017 Bills Taylor, instead of the 2018 Browns TT.

[Royale with Cheese]

16 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

You've completely missed the point.

 

I'm looking at each guys FULL body of work.

 

Allen looks no different now than he did at Wyoming. He's inaccurate, can't read a defense, leaves the pocket too early, walks into sacks when he doesn't feel where pressure is coming from, and just generally does very little to move an offense. 

 

This is the guy on tape for 2.5 years and 650 pass attempts at Wyoming. People are grossly underestimating how far he has to go just to be an average NFL QB. 

 

I'm not just evaluating Allen as a Bill; I'm evaluating him going back to his time at Wyoming and there's been no improvement of his play on a football field since 2016. 

 

There's also been no improvement in play in Taylor as well and actually showed a regression....which is why he was benched.

But you want to be firm you can't draw any conclusions on Taylor's play for the first 3 games this year, 8th year as a pro with 45 or so starts under his belt.

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I disagree.

 

It was a huge gamble where they went all in on Josh Allen.

 

They were so confident in him as a prospect, they traded the #12 pick (ie: #21 pick, Cordy Glenn) and two second round picks to move up for him. 

 

If he doesn't work out, you don't get another shot. You don't get off the hook for taking the guy every advanced analytic said would be a total bust and get the opportunity to do it all over again. 

 

So you loved the pick and the way they got to #7???  ?

 

As I said, if everything else is going in the right direction, it would be stupid to start over because a shot at QB missed. You can’t be like an impatient child having a tantrum. It’s still exists as a dark mark on their record, they hang by a thinner thread, but not the ultimate drop dead gotta go factor. At least they took a shot for a change! It just doesn’t always pan out. It’s hard to know where ANY of these guys will be in 5-10 years. 

[jrober38]

Just now, billsfan1959 said:

It is a huge gamble with, virtually, every QB. You have absolutely no idea which one will pan out and which one will not. You have thought Allen was going to be a bust since he was drafted. You are hardly an objective observer.

 

Really? 

 

Me calling Josh Allen, who currently ranks dead last in pretty much every passing category for starting QBs, a long shot of being successful isn't being objective?

 

Maybe you should look in the mirror. 

 

I get that you want Allen to succeed, but it probably won't happen. That's reality when you pick a QB in round 1. 

[longtimebillsfan]

3 minutes ago, The Red King said:

 

Ah, assumptions.  If ya ain't for us, yer 'gainst us!

 

Check my post history.  I actually started a forum post titled The Bills did not back into the playoffs.  I repeatedly stated Tyrod was a mediocre QB, capable of elevating a bad team and dragging down a good one.  When traded I said it was a good move for both teams and said he was just what they needed until Mayfield was ready.  I said the Bills outgrew him, I never said any other QB would be an improvement.  So, basically, all your assumptions are wrong, and the proof is right here on the board.

 

I understand, it's easier to write someone off as a hater, that way you don't have to address their points.  In this case, Tyrod's tenure as Cleveland starter.  You persist in handwaving that off like it never happened, ignoring it, insisting he would have played like the 2017 Bills Taylor, instead of the 2018 Browns TT.

Have a great day and Happy Thanksgiving.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

Really? 

 

Me calling Josh Allen, who currently ranks dead last in pretty much every passing category for starting QBs, a long shot of being successful isn't being objective?

 

Maybe you should look in the mirror. 

 

I get that you want Allen to succeed, but it probably won't happen. That's reality when you pick a QB in round 1. 

 

Why was our passing offense bad last year?

[jrober38]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Why was our passing offense bad last year?

 

Because we had a bottom 5 starting QB.

 

Why is it worse this year?

 

[CuddyDark]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

There's also been no improvement in play in Taylor as well and actually showed a regression....which is why he was benched.

But you want to be firm you can't draw any conclusions on Taylor's play for the first 3 games this year, 8th year as a pro with 45 or so starts under his belt.

The conclusion I draw from his 8 year career is TT would be the best QB on the Bills roster and we'd probably have 5 or 6 wins. No way in hell TT throws 3 Ints in Indy or the 7 Peterman threw in his games. It's more likely TT would have 300+ rushing yards and 2INT at this point.

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

Because we had a bottom 5 starting QB.

 

Why is it worse this year?

 

Exactly. Telling the truth about Allen doesn't mean love for TT. TT would be a better player right now but that doesn't mean he's a good player.

[jrober38]

5 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

So you loved the pick and the way they got to #7???  ?

 

As I said, if everything else is going in the right direction, it would be stupid to start over because a shot at QB missed. You can’t be like an impatient child having a tantrum. It’s still exists as a dark mark on their record, they hang by a thinner thread, but not the ultimate drop dead gotta go factor. At least they took a shot for a change! It just doesn’t always pan out. It’s hard to know where ANY of these guys will be in 5-10 years. 

 

Nope.

 

The Bills should have tanked in 2017 and walked away from the draft with a franchise QB, another 1st round pick, two 2nd round picks, and three 3rd round picks.

 

We could have had a franchise altering draft. Instead we traded away almost all of our assets for Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds and went all in on two players. 

1 minute ago, CuddyDark said:

The conclusion I draw from his 8 year career is TT would be the best QB on the Bills roster and we'd probably have 5 or 6 wins. No way in hell TT throws 3 Ints in Indy or the 7 Peterman threw in his games. It's more likely TT would have 300+ rushing yards and 2INT at this point.

Exactly. Telling the truth about Allen doesn't mean love for TT. TT would be a better player right now but that doesn't mean he's a good player.

 

Exactly.

 

Tyrod Taylor sucks.

 

Josh Allen is worse.

 

I get that a lot of people don't want to accept that, but that's not my problem.