Royale with Cheese Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, CuddyDark said: No because we'd have a better running game and less TO. #1 running game right? Taylor makes that much of a difference I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said: I do and can agree with this....but with this offense, I think our offensive scoring would be roughly the same. We had trouble scoring last year, especially in the 2nd half. and I guess that's where we disagree then. I don't believe it would have been historically bad leading up into week 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Again, what you're saying is just nonsensical. Yeah, we couldn't score, but still scored 19 points per game. Prior to Matt Barkley going off, we were scoring 10.6 points a game, and are only now scoring 13 points per game. Every argument you want to make can be easily shot down by basic stats. 2017 we had a bad offense. 2018 we have arguably the worst offense in NFL history. I know we have one of the worst offenses in NFL history. You're assuming with a regressed of talent, especially at the offensive line, we wouldn't have continued to regress even with Taylor under center. We wouldn't average 19 points per game with him here and the talent he has. 13 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: come on man.... the offense was on pace to be historically bad. they had freaking 2 or 3 pass td's up until last week. in an nfl that's on pace to score more points combined in a season than it ever has the bills were competing for historical numbers from 20 and 25 years ago..... so YES, even a qb in the 20-30 range of starters is a SIGNIFICANT upgrade. what freaking team were you watching? apparently you don't understand the magnitude of what was happening. I understand the magnitude. The offense I saw last year, was bad. We got worse on talent on that side of the ball this year. I see Taylor play really bad this year with a team with better weapons....I think they bad play would have continued even in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: I know we have one of the worst offenses in NFL history. You're assuming with a regressed of talent, especially at the offensive line, we wouldn't have continued to regress even with Taylor under center. We wouldn't average 19 points per game with him here and the talent he has. I understand the magnitude. The offense I saw last year, was bad. We got worse on talent on that side of the ball this year. I see Taylor play really bad this year with a team with better weapons....I think they bad play would have continued even in Buffalo. oh they would have been bad..... just not 10ppg and 22 TO bad. and that makes a difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 13 hours ago, Tcali said: possible. but I think barkley is better --so you could propose the same thing w barkley.Of course we are assuming a 4-5 start vs a 2-7 start caused by our impossibly horrid QBing so far. Barkley has a ton more touch than any QB the Bills have put on the field to this point in his only game it seemed as though he could drop the ball into any spot where only the Bills receiver could grab it . If he was gotten earlier in the season i would say they could be in the play offs again but bad decisions that have surrounded the position all year will keep the team out of the play offs this year !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berg1029 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Is it a playoff team with Tyrod? Possibly. It happened last year, it certainly could have happened again this year with our defense being what it is Is it a superbowl team with Tyrod? Not a chance. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Tyrod is an okay starter for a team with a dominant defense, but nobody is going to be winning superbowls with him (unless he's a backup) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddy KGB Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, CuddyDark said: Actually yeah. He'd run out of the pocket and up field for 5 to 20 yards. Teams would have a mush rush against TT. The DT wouldn't even rush him the way they rush pocket QBs. He helps the line and the backs because he's a running threat. That’s why the bills were 29th in yards in 2017 ? Too much emotion, not enough facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Teddy KGB said: That’s why the bills were 29th in yards in 2017 ? Too much emotion, not enough facts you should just post a link to the saints or jags boxscores. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, KzooMike said: We have almost a carbon copy of last years team in an even weaker playoff battle. With Tyrod I think it would have been back to back playoff years. Give him two turnovers in a game and he wins more often than not. No, I don't think he's good. But what he does do is protect the ball, enhance the running game, and to some extent mask poor offensive line play. Whats even more silly about the whole thing is he gets traded to the exact same situation he would have faced here. Perhaps he would have had the same fate in Buffalo he has in Cleveland if he was retained. I know Taylor has been talked to nauseous levels. I just find the thought process on this interesting and I'm curious what others think. Is this a playoff team with Taylor? Two things: First: We are certainly most likely a playoff contender right now with him. This defense is better than last year, Tyrod substantially opens up the run game so we would be a much better rushing team with him and that would also help open the pass game. So between an improved run game compared to this year and the likely significant reduction in turnovers would compliment this D and we likely are in wildcard race right now. Second: Doesn’t matter. What people keep failing to realize is that trading Tyrod was the right move because we got such a premium draft pick for a guy who was not going to be part of the future and was gonna be gone by end of this season if he had been here anyway. He had taken us as far as he was gonna get us, wildcard birth with an early exit. This regime has made the priority building a team that doesn’t just contend for the last playoff spot, but contends for a title. And Tyrods upside was capped and they needed to find that QB that had the potential to help this team really contend. So they moved Tyrod (a player not part of the future with only 1 year left on his contract) to get back a premium draft asset that paid dividends this past draft as we used that pick to trade up to get Edmunds. And I will say that was overwhelmingly the best move for the Bills. The real question is simple: Would you rather have Tyrod right now to MAYBE help contend for the last wild card spot before he leaves for nothing as a FA at end of the year...or Edmunds for the next decade quarterbacking and anchoring our defense? I think the answer is pretty obvious. Edited November 16, 2018 by Alphadawg7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steptide Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 23 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: so you wouldn't care if they were still winning and still able to develop the young qb on the bench, just because they wouldn't be winning the way you wanted.... solid. that makes sense. correct me if i'm wrong but didn't I see you clamoring for Peterman repeatedly last year? Damm right I was. Tyrod was horrendous at times last year. After the saints game I was all for Peterman starting. I don't think anyone expected him to be as bad as he was and is. Tyrod was/is an ok qb. He does some things well and he does other things horribly. The jags playoff game was maddening. I spent half the game screaming at the TV to throw the ball. He isn't a franchise qb. To your other point, I think a guy sitting behind another guy for a year is a bit overrated. Yes I think in some cases it can be beneficial, but I don't think it makes a huge difference at the end of the day. Allen needs to be out there learning defenses and learning how to run this offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 33 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Again, what you're saying is just nonsensical. Yeah, we couldn't score, but still scored 19 points per game. Prior to Matt Barkley going off, we were scoring 10.6 points a game, and are only now scoring 13 points per game. Every argument you want to make can be easily shot down by basic stats. 2017 we had a bad offense. 2018 we have arguably the worst offense in NFL history. And I am sure Taylor's 49% completion percentage, 5.6 yd passing avg, and 64 rating before he was benched (which, since you are so into stats, is NOT significantly better than what Allen posted) would have made this offense sooooooo much better. Talk about nonsensical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Steptide said: Damm right I was. Tyrod was horrendous at times last year. After the saints game I was all for Peterman starting. I don't think anyone expected him to be as bad as he was and is. Tyrod was/is an ok qb. He does some things well and he does other things horribly. The jags playoff game was maddening. I spent half the game screaming at the TV to throw the ball. He isn't a franchise qb. To your other point, I think a guy sitting behind another guy for a year is a bit overrated. Yes I think in some cases it can be beneficial, but I don't think it makes a huge difference at the end of the day. Allen needs to be out there learning defenses and learning how to run this offense. I bet you were screaming to put peterman in weren't you? i'll take the wins and the rookie qb sitting and learning with the potential to earn the job if the starter struggles any day of the week over what this year has been. I don't even know how anyone could argue otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Maybe. But consider the fan revolt if we paid that guy $16M and he continued to put up 150 yd. passing games. No thanks. I'm good with where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, billsfan1959 said: And I am sure Taylor's 49% completion percentage, 5.6 yd passing avg, and 64 rating before he was benched (which, since you are so into stats, is NOT significantly better than what Allen posted) would have made this offense sooooooo much better. Talk about nonsensical. its always best to use a very small sample size when forming arguments. Just now, Freddie's Dead said: Maybe. But consider the fan revolt if we paid that guy $16M and he continued to put up 150 yd. passing games. No thanks. I'm good with where we are. nobody should be good with where we are. I'm cool with what I think we might be.... but not where we are. and theres an argument to be made that there are other ways to get to a good spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, Stank_Nasty said: its always best to use a very small sample size when forming arguments. Apparently a small sample size is good enough to judge Allen, so, there's that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, billsfan1959 said: Apparently a small sample size is good enough to judge Allen, so, there's that..... well not for me. earlier on the page I stated i'm annoyed with that posters thoughts on allen but his points in this thread and topic are fairly accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddy KGB Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: you should just post a link to the saints or jags boxscores. Or pats, Bengals, panthers. Its why I used the whole year. You have a beef with facts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, Teddy KGB said: Or pats, Bengals, panthers. Its why I used the whole year. You have a beef with facts ? it would be as dumb as somebody picking out the good games he had and basing their whole stance off of it. but by all means. you do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 I was a Tyrod fan and I say no not a playoff team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 We would OBVIOUSLY be a playoff team with Tyrod. I cannot even fathom how anyone would think otherwise. We have the number 1 defense in the league. We are losing because of turnovers, the one thing TT consistently did not do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, Stank_Nasty said: well not for me. earlier on the page I stated i'm annoyed with that posters thoughts on allen but his points in this thread and topic are fairly accurate. Not really. This is the same Taylor that led the 31st ranked passing offense last year and the 30th ranked passing offense in 2016 (with the benefit of the 1st ranked rushing offense). He is in his fifth year and on his third team - and riding the bench. The legend of Tyrod just seems to grow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said: Not really. This is the same Taylor that led the 31st ranked passing offense last year and the 30th ranked passing offense in 2016 (with the benefit of the 1st ranked rushing offense). He is in his fifth year and on his third team - and riding the bench. The legend of Tyrod just seems to grow.... We have the number 1 defense in the league. We are getting crushed because of interceptions. Tyrod maybe didnt lead a prolific passing offense, but he didn't turn the ball over, which is literally all we need to be a 500% team right now (headed into the easiest second half schedule in the league) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said: Not really. This is the same Taylor that led the 31st ranked passing offense last year and the 30th ranked passing offense in 2016 (with the benefit of the 1st ranked rushing offense). He is in his fifth year and on his third team - and riding the bench. The legend of Tyrod just seems to grow.... you are totally missing the point. the question isn't whether the offense would be any good. its whether or not it would be better than the HISTORICALLY bad one the team fielded through 9 games. 10 ppg and 22 TO's.... we both know it wouldn't have been that bad. even just cut those to's in half and the defense is even better than it already has been. IMO theres a couple more wins there. offense still woulda sucked. just not to historical levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddy KGB Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: We have the number 1 defense in the league. We are getting crushed because of interceptions. Tyrod maybe didnt lead a prolific passing offense, but he didn't turn the ball over, which is literally all we need to be a 500% team right now (headed into the easiest second half schedule in the league) 29th ranked offense 1st ranked defense = no playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: We have the number 1 defense in the league. We are getting crushed because of interceptions. Tyrod maybe didnt lead a prolific passing offense, but he didn't turn the ball over, which is literally all we need to be a 500% team right now (headed into the easiest second half schedule in the league) yup. some people aren't grasping it. they're so trigger happy about tyrod they think it means people are saying he was good. he wasn't . 1 minute ago, Teddy KGB said: 29th ranked offense 1st ranked defense = no playoffs. 10 ppg and 22 TO = no playoffs and both numbers WAY WORSE than last year. Edited November 16, 2018 by Stank_Nasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctk232 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 13 hours ago, KzooMike said: We have almost a carbon copy of last years team in an even weaker playoff battle. With Tyrod I think it would have been back to back playoff years. Give him two turnovers in a game and he wins more often than not. No, I don't think he's good. But what he does do is protect the ball, enhance the running game, and to some extent mask poor offensive line play. Whats even more silly about the whole thing is he gets traded to the exact same situation he would have faced here. Perhaps he would have had the same fate in Buffalo he has in Cleveland if he was retained. I know Taylor has been talked to nauseous levels. I just find the thought process on this interesting and I'm curious what others think. Is this a playoff team with Taylor? Quite the opposite, the OL saved TT more times than anyone can count. The whole reason people were able to complain about him holding onto the ball too long was due to the OL protection in the first place. Between Glenn, Richie, and Wood - TT had a lot of protection to work with and those three extended plays for him left and right, he just never threw the ball. Put him behind this line with these WRs and we fair no better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said: 29th ranked offense 1st ranked defense = no playoffs. Wait, that isn't responsive to what I said. I don't know what you are getting at here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, Stank_Nasty said: you are totally missing the point. the question isn't whether the offense would be any good. its whether or not it would be better than the HISTORICALLY bad one the team fielded through 9 games. 10 ppg and 22 TO's.... we both know it wouldn't have been that bad. even just cut those to's in half and the defense is even better than it already has been. IMO theres a couple more wins there. offense still woulda sucked. just not to historical levels. Not missing the point at all. I just happen to think it is a silly point. They got a 3rd round pick for a QB that wouldn't have made this team much better this year, if better at all, and that the Brown's could not get anything for at this point. Why in the world would you want to keep a QB that you are arguing would only have made this team marginally better, at best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: Not missing the point at all. I just happen to think it is a silly point. They got a 3rd round pick for a QB that wouldn't have made this team much better this year, if better at all, and that the Brown's could not get anything for at this point. Why in the world would you want to keep a QB that you are arguing would only have made this team marginally better, at best? We would be in the playoffs but for the TT trade. Long term we got the better deal, sure. Its a smart move in that respect. But we obviously would be a playoff team right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: Not missing the point at all. I just happen to think it is a silly point. They got a 3rd round pick for a QB that wouldn't have made this team much better this year, if better at all, and that the Brown's could not get anything for at this point. Why in the world would you want to keep a QB that you are arguing would only have made this team marginally better, at best? I dont mind the trade we made. but if i'm talking strictly on topic...2 more wins would put them at .500 with a cake schedule going forward and in the hunt. i'm under belief we could still be developing the young qb and chasing the playoffs. cut those 22 to's in half and I can easily see at least 1 more win and 2 can be debated. we both know the old qb wasn't launching up 16 int over 9 freaking games. i'm all on board with the rookie and the future. i'm also of the belief that you don't have to be god awful to be all in on the future. Edited November 16, 2018 by Stank_Nasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: We would be in the playoffs but for the TT trade. Long term we got the better deal, sure. Its a smart move in that respect. But we obviously would be a playoff team right now. In your opinion. My every objective, measurable standard: IMHO, No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, billsfan1959 said: In your opinion. My every objective, measurable standard: IMHO, No. Interceptions. The one that matters in this context. Interceptions. Its the only reasons teams can put up any points on us. Its the one thing TT was as good as it gets at. Not once have you addressed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 13 hours ago, Another Fan said: No. Maybe 7-8 wins versus 5-6 this year. Don't forget as well Richie Incognito imo played a big part in the O Line success last year exactly. I'd say if we had Wood and Incognito back we may be a playoff team, even with the QB issues because we'd be able to open up the running game. We have so far been a 1 dimensional team with subpar QB play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boca BIlls Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 14 hours ago, KzooMike said: We have almost a carbon copy of last years team in an even weaker playoff battle. With Tyrod I think it would have been back to back playoff years. Give him two turnovers in a game and he wins more often than not. No, I don't think he's good. But what he does do is protect the ball, enhance the running game, and to some extent mask poor offensive line play. Whats even more silly about the whole thing is he gets traded to the exact same situation he would have faced here. Perhaps he would have had the same fate in Buffalo he has in Cleveland if he was retained. I know Taylor has been talked to nauseous levels. I just find the thought process on this interesting and I'm curious what others think. Is this a playoff team with Taylor? Not even close with Tuhrod... all he does is give you a middle of the pack draft pick. Did you not remember the playoff game last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 15 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Interceptions. The one that matters in this context. Interceptions. Its the only reasons teams can put up any points on us. Its the one thing TT was as good as it gets at. Not once have you addressed that. We can agree to disagree. The team got a 3rd round pick for a mediocre, at best, QB, whose entire claim to fame is that he doesn't turn the ball over - rather than he is a good QB. IMO, it was time to move on from him and they did - and maybe approaching, at best, the Mendoza line in wins with him this year wasn't a good enough reason to keep him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: We can agree to disagree. The team got a 3rd round pick for a mediocre, at best, QB, whose entire claim to fame is that he doesn't turn the ball over - rather than he is a good QB. IMO, it was time to move on from him and they did - and maybe approaching, at best, the Mendoza line in wins with him this year wasn't a good enough reason to keep him. again you cant separate your thoughts on the move from him and if we would be a better team.... not many people will argue it wasn't the right move. I liked the trade. but if you stick strictly to the topic, yes the team would probably be at the tail end of the hunt with a turnover free qb and this defense with most of the heavy hitters in their schedule gone. try to separate your thoughts on moving on from him and the topic at hand. Edited November 16, 2018 by Stank_Nasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: We can agree to disagree. The team got a 3rd round pick for a mediocre, at best, QB, whose entire claim to fame is that he doesn't turn the ball over - rather than he is a good QB. IMO, it was time to move on from him and they did - and maybe approaching, at best, the Mendoza line in wins with him this year wasn't a good enough reason to keep him. I 100% agree with all of this. It was the SMART move. They did, I would do it, and then I would do it again. We still would have made the playoffs with him. We just would have lost in the first round. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: I 100% agree with all of this. It was the SMART move. They did, I would do it, and then I would do it again. We still would have made the playoffs with him. We just would have lost in the first round. some people are having a hard time separating the actual topic here and whether or not they think we should have kept him or not. 2 totally different topics. Edited November 16, 2018 by Stank_Nasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, Stank_Nasty said: some people are having a hard time separating the actual topic here and whether or not they think we should have kept him or not. Nature of the beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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