The True reason to fire McDermott

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

LMAO at the posters who think this is exactly what McDermott wants.

 

Did you eat paint chips as a child?

 

Dude, it's pointless. I've given up.

 

 

[jkeerie]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

Almost a year and a half on the job and no one knows what McDermott wants.

 

All he talks about is running the ball and playing defense, as if that's how you win in the NFL these days.

 

You win in the modern NFL by scoring points. Lots of points. 

 

All of the top teams right now have forward thinking progressive coaches who are trying to innovate. 

Who knows what we're trying to do, and that's a problem. We're scoring less than 12 points a game which is unheard of in the modern NFL.

But each of those teams...in addition to having effective passing games...also have quite effective running games.  There was a reason why the Patriots drafted Sony MIchel.  They knew that running the football is still important in this league.  You certainly can't be one-dimensional and only think that running and stopping the run will win you football games.  However, running and stopping the run is still an important element to winning.  The Colts ran for 220 yards against the Bills.  Luck threw for 150.  Both those numbers were important to their victory.  

 

The Bills problem now is we're not executing anywhere.  That's players and scheme.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

NOT BEING FIRED !

 

 

[fridge]

1 hour ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

Gailey's offense was lightyears better  than this team in every position besides running back. I don't think he's trying to build a defense first team, so much as he inherited a team that already had most of the defensive pieces in place, and doesn't really need to be rebuilt like the offense does. 

 

Are you joking? He had Stevie Johnson, Donald Jones and David Nelson.  A 7th rounder and two undrafted FA's.  Gailey was a bad coach, but his offensive scheming and ability to squeeze production out of no talent should never be questioned.

5 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Yet in 5 of the 13 games yesterday (38%), the winning team scored less than 25 points. 

 

38% is lower than 62%, you know that right?

[Wayne Arnold]

50 minutes ago, pop gun said:

That's a big tub of poo.

 

This whole cluster was a McBean creation.

 

Riiiiiiiight.

[JGMcD2]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

He's an example of a young, forward-thinking OC.  Did I say that's who they should hire? No...it was an example of the mold of coach they should be looking at IMO

 

Sometimes you need to look past the numbers in a single season. For example: would you hire an OC that had the 30th ranked offense in terms of points and 32nd ranked offense in terms of yards, purely based on reputation?  What if that same guy had previously coordinated an offense that finished top-5 in points scored, but had finished no better than 14th since?

 

That guy just so happened to be Mike McCarthy back in 2006, who went on to become a great HC in Green Bay.  He got that job because he was a forward-thinking OC and play-caller that could work with their young QB. 

Sounds a lot like Daboll, albeit the sucesss was in college. 

 

Highly thought of by Saban and Belicheck.

 

Ironic you’re suggesting to look past the numbers in a single season based on the circumstances the coach has to deal with... because that’s exactly what is going on with Daboll lol.

[LSHMEAB]

I don't understand why people aren't more upset about the pathetic defensive performance yesterday.

 

I'd be more optimistic about the narrative that McDermott only knows defense if his defenses weren't so routinely trounced.

[thebandit27]

Just now, JGMcD2 said:

Sounds a lot like Daboll, albeit the sucesss was in college. 

 

Highly thought of by Saban and Belicheck.

 

Ironic you’re suggesting to look past the numbers in a single season based on the circumstances the coach has to deal with... because that’s exactly what is going on with Daboll lol.

 

Daboll has not had anything close to McCarthy's level of success in any stop as an OC.  In fact, he's been largely horrid on the whole--bottom 1/4 in yards every year, bottom 3 in points every year, and only once in 5 seasons did he have a passing offense better than 29th (and in that season Miami finished 23rd in passing yards).

 

You can lol all you like, but "look beyond the numbers" doesn't mean "ignore terrible performance at every turn"

3 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I don't understand why people aren't more upset about the pathetic defensive performance yesterday.

 

I'd be more optimistic about the narrative that McDermott only knows defense if his defenses weren't so routinely trounced.

 

Because on the whole, the defense has played very well for the last month; having one bad game is much more excusable than being putrid all the time.

[BillsMafia13]

1 hour ago, Avisan said:

Is this a joke?????

 

Our TEs were what, Scott Chandler?  Starting WRs were Donald Jones and David Nelson.  Stevie meshed well with Fitz but washed out of the league shortly after he left.  Our offensive line consisted of stalwarts like Demetress Bell and Geoff Handgartner and whatever bums we skimmed off of a practice squad to play guard any given week.  Wood ended up being a solid center once he moved over but we had NO offensive talent.

 

Pretty much ever single skill player we had under Chan is no longer in this league.

They still scored a ton of points with a lack of talent.  So yes it was lightyears better WITH Scotty the Body playing TE

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, cgg716 said:

I’m not a doom and gloom guy normally but he has got to go for a simple reason, what he is attempting to build is no longer effective in the NFL.

 

We can not be defense first, not with these rules, we cannot have play calling from the 1970s, unable to take advantage of the rules. And two coordinators now have done this.

 

People that defend him will point to the talent, 11 pts a game in a league where 35 is routine runs so much deeper than that. We saw Gailey score plenty of points with the same talent level. Innovate or die, McDermott can’t innovate and he could ruin Allen out of that stubbornness.

 

The Rams and Bears did it, firing two more accomplished coaches to catch up to the league, the Bills have to as well 

McDermott coached in the NFC South for years, and it's a division loaded with good offenses and coaches like Payton. He also coached under Andy Reid, who he regards as his mentor.  You should also assume that McDermott is highly aware that the Panthers finished in the top 10 in offensive DVOA in 2013 and 2015 (playoff/super bowls seasons), and in the 20s in the years they missed the playoffs (2014 and 2016). Indeed,  Carolina finished 1st in points in 2015. He knows that it's the way to win, but at present he can't do it because of the personnel. I fully expect that the Bills will go all in on acquiring offensive talent next off-season.  That is the only way to run a higher-octane offense, and he's smart enough to know that. 

 

In other words, I fundamentally disagree with the premise of the post. 

[JM57]

8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

McDermott coached in the NFC South for years, and it's a division loaded with good offenses and coaches like Payton. He also coached under Andy Reid, who he regards as his mentor.  You should also assume that McDermott is highly aware that the Panthers finished in the top 10 in offensive DVOA in 2013 and 2015 (playoff/super bowls seasons), and in the 20s in the years they missed the playoffs (2014 and 2016). Indeed,  Carolina finished 1st in points in 2015. He knows that it's the way to win, but at present he can't do it because of the personnel. I fully expect that the Bills will go all in on acquiring offensive talent next off-season.  That is the only way to run a higher-octane offense, and he's smart enough to know that. 

 

In other words, I fundamentally disagree with the premise of the post. 

So you're telling me that despite being aware of the value of an offense, he, along with his handpicked GM Beane, took an offense that was inconsistent but able to put points on the board, ripped it to the studs and drafted a low floor, low chance to succeed project QB on purpose?

 

Wow.

[McBean]

Let’s just keep firing everybody every 2 years. It seems like it’s worked wonders for us in the past.

[Roundybout]

1 minute ago, McBean said:

Let’s just keep firing everybody every 2 years. It seems like it’s worked wonders for us in the past.

 

THANK YOU

[Peter]

1 hour ago, Avisan said:

Firing the HC every 2 years is necessary when you keep hiring bloody awful head coaches

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, McBean said:

Let’s just keep firing everybody every 2 years. It seems like it’s worked wonders for us in the past.

I thought it was ridiculous to undermine and fire the last coach (who was the winningest in almost two decades) in less than two years.  It hurt us in terms of continuity and in the eyes of many.  To fire McCoach in less than two years also would be ridiculous (even though, as I say, I am not a huge fan).

Edited October 22, 2018 by Peter

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, cgg716 said:

I’m not a doom and gloom guy normally but he has got to go for a simple reason, what he is attempting to build is no longer effective in the NFL.

 

We can not be defense first, not with these rules, we cannot have play calling from the 1970s, unable to take advantage of the rules. And two coordinators now have done this.

 

People that defend him will point to the talent, 11 pts a game in a league where 35 is routine runs so much deeper than that. We saw Gailey score plenty of points with the same talent level. Innovate or die, McDermott can’t innovate and he could ruin Allen out of that stubbornness.

 

The Rams and Bears did it, firing two more accomplished coaches to catch up to the league, the Bills have to as well 

 

I thought there was going to be some story about him making unwanted advances toward Russ Brandon or something.... ‘sigh’ 

[Fadingpain]

1 hour ago, cgg716 said:

I’m not a doom and gloom guy normally but he has got to go for a simple reason, what he is attempting to build is no longer effective in the NFL.

 

We can not be defense first, not with these rules, we cannot have play calling from the 1970s, unable to take advantage of the rules. And two coordinators now have done this.

 

People that defend him will point to the talent, 11 pts a game in a league where 35 is routine runs so much deeper than that. We saw Gailey score plenty of points with the same talent level. Innovate or die, McDermott can’t innovate and he could ruin Allen out of that stubbornness.

 

The Rams and Bears did it, firing two more accomplished coaches to catch up to the league, the Bills have to as well 

Have some patience.

 

McDermott and Beane both will not outlast Allen.

When Allen is declared a bust, probably some time middle of next year, McBeane will be gone at season's end.

 

They will be fired; just not right now.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

32 minutes ago, JM57 said:

So you're telling me that despite being aware of the value of an offense, he, along with his handpicked GM Beane, took an offense that was inconsistent but able to put points on the board, ripped it to the studs and drafted a low floor, low chance to succeed project QB on purpose?

 

Wow.

I think a couple of things happened. 1) They got the QB they wanted, who is probably the closest comparable to Cam Newton in the league in terms of skill set. 2) McDermott misjudged on Zay Jones. They thought he was a potential difference maker and he isn't (so far). A lot of teams liked him coming out too; the Bills weren't alone. It happens. 3) Wood and Incognito retiring were unexpected moves that had negative knock-on effects. As @BADOLBILZ has said numerous times, the FA market for o-linemen last season was dreadful. The  Bills' line is terrible, but there are a lot of shaky o-lines out there and the available talent pool is really, really thin. 4) FA signings/trade acquisitions like McCarron, Matthews, and Benjamin didn't work out. That's on them. I'm sure they're aware of that. Both Matthews and Benjamin had been productive elsewhere, but they both flailed here. 

Regardless, the plan was always going to be a tear-down/rebuild of the offense. Moreover the plan was also always to upgrade the personnel on D (which they did, to their credit) and get the big-time high-ceiling QB (and please, let's not pass any judgment on him yet) before filling out the offense. 

 

My larger point is that these guys are clearly not stupid. They made some miscalculations on talent, but I'm quite sure they see Pittsburgh's offense from 2017 (with a 6'5" QB who can sling it) as a model, not Pittsburgh's offense from 1976, when they had two 1,000-yard rushers.  That premise is just wrong. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by dave mcbride

[mannc]

23 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

 

I thought it was ridiculous to undermine and fire the last coach (who was the winningest in almost two decades) in less than two years.  It hurt us in terms of continuity and in the eyes of many.  To fire McCoach in less than two years also would be ridiculous (even though, as I say, I am not a huge fan).

So you think Rex deserved to stay?? Wow.

[JM57]

11 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I think a couple of things happened. 1) They got the QB they wanted, who is probably the closest comparable to Cam Newton in the league in terms of skill set. 2) McDermott misjudged on Zay Jones. They thought he was a potential difference maker and he isn't (so far). A lot of teams liked him coming out too; the Bills weren't alone. It happens. 3) Wood and Incognito retiring were unexpected moves that had negative knock-on effects. As @BADOLBILZ has said numerous times, the FA market for o-linemen last season was dreadful. The  Bills' line is terrible, but there are a lot of shaky o-lines out there and the available talent pool is really, really thin. 4) FA signings/trade acquisitions like McCarron, Matthews, and Benjamin didn't work out. That's on them. I'm sure they're aware of that. Both Matthews and Benjamin had been productive elsewhere, but they both flailed here. 

Regardless, the plan was always going to be a tear-down/rebuild of the offense. Moreover the plan was also always to upgrade the personnel on D (which they did, to their credit) and get the big-time high-ceiling QB (and please, let's not pass any judgment on him yet) before filling out the offense. 

 

My larger point is that these guys are clearly not stupid. They made some miscalculations on talent, but I'm quite sure they see Pittsburgh's offense from 2017 (with a 6'5" QB who can sling it) as a model, not Pittsburgh's offense from 1976, when they had two 1,000-yard rushers.  That premise is just wrong. 

Great post, but that takes me right to my next point on these guys. Every one of their offensive additions to this point has been a swing and miss. How am I supposed to believe they're just going to magically figure that out this off-season

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Almost a year and a half on the job and no one knows what McDermott wants.

 

All he talks about is running the ball and playing defense, as if that's how you win in the NFL these days.

 

You win in the modern NFL by scoring points. Lots of points. 

 

All of the top teams right now have forward thinking progressive coaches who are trying to innovate. 

Who knows what we're trying to do, and that's a problem. We're scoring less than 12 points a game which is unheard of in the modern NFL.

You know exactly what they are trying to do....you just dont agree with it.   Plain and simple

[kkim0904]

How about Daboll?  At least defense had few good games and McDermott can run defense.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, JM57 said:

Great post, but that takes me right to my next point on these guys. Every one of their offensive additions to this point has been a swing and miss. How am I supposed to believe they're just going to magically figure that out this off-season

I can't disagree with this at all. I guess my only rejoinder is that aside from Zay Jones, the guys they acquired were always intended to be time servers until they went in big on the offense. Bear in mind that Matthews and Benjamin were either at the end of or near the end of their contracts. I doubt they would have traded for Benjamin if not for the improbable fact that they found themselves a playoff contender halfway through last season. 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, kkim0904 said:

How about Daboll?  At least defense had few good games and McDermott can run defense.

The fact that Daboll is not fired is what really leads me to believe that mgt does not WANT this team to be good this year

[ctk232]

2 hours ago, KD in CA said:

 

And if they happen to find a coach who ends a 17 year playoff drought his first year, he needs to be fired too because......'we backed in' or 'got lucky' or 'Peterman' or 'traded away all our talent' or 'Mahomes' or 'blahblahblah......'

I think we lucked ourselves into the playoffs more than we played our way in, but still think McD should stay - not just for that reason, among other insanely logical reasons, but the team didn't get themselves into a position that we could luck into the playoffs all on their own.

Edited October 22, 2018 by ctk232

[dave mcbride]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

The fact that Daboll is not fired is what really leads me to believe that mgt does not WANT this team to be good this year

Daboll is not the problem with this offense. Bill Walsh himself would struggle to generate 10 points with this talent. 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Daboll is not the problem with this offense. Bill Walsh himself would struggle to generate 10 points with this talent. 

You are in fact correct

 

I am just saying that Deboll would be the sacrificial lamb if we truly were looking to win (imo)

[mannc]

5 minutes ago, JM57 said:

Great post, but that takes me right to my next point on these guys. Every one of their offensive additions to this point has been a swing and miss. How am I supposed to believe they're just going to magically figure that out this off-season

To me, this is the question that matters.  So far, the evidence overwhelmingly shows that they don’t know what they are doing when it comes to offensive football.  How long do they get to prove otherwise?  I’m not sure they are capable of fixing the mess they’ve made.

[ctk232]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

You are in fact correct

 

I am just saying that Deboll would be the sacrificial lamb if we truly were looking to win (imo)

While I, at least, need another year to pass judgment on Daboll, I get that many others are ready to move on for myriad reasons. I can certainly see the issues he has in playcalling, but the systemic issues of lack of talent, especially at the QB position can drastically stifle and suffocate an offense. Simply put, if you don't have a good QB you won't have a good offense in the NFL. Seems more obvious, but the emphasis is having a QB that can provide the foundation for a pass first offense, we don't have that. 

 

That being said, I don't understand if he had been an OC in the NFL before, and was determined by NFL organizations to not be a worthwhile OC capable of this level, why do we think he will be better with us? Obvious, "cuz we're the bills" answers aside - the logic of expecting anything different seems a bit baseless in that regard, and it's something that gives me trouble when I say give him one more year.

[Peter]

18 minutes ago, mannc said:

So you think Rex deserved to stay?? Wow.

 

Yes, I thought that the winningest Buffalo Bills coach in nearly two decades deserved to stay beyond two years and did not deserve to be undermined.

 

Fun fact, the point differential and the relative offensive and defensive rankings were worse last year than the year before.

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

To me, this is the question that matters.  So far, the evidence overwhelmingly shows that they don’t know what they are doing when it comes to offensive football.  How long do they get to prove otherwise?  I’m not sure they are capable of fixing the mess they’ve made.

This offseason is huge, no doubt. There may have been five-year plans in the USSR, but there are no five-year plans in the NFL. Next season is year 3 of what should be a 3-year plan (4 years max). They have to nail it. To give them the benefit of the doubt a little, they have set themselves up pretty well in terms of draft capital and FA. I don't like the fact that they only have one pick each in the first three rounds, but they will probably be able to move back a little in the first (there are always qb-desperate teams) and pick up another second/third. The Colts' moves last year represent a good model, and their draft picks that they got from the Jets trade are good players. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2018_draft.htm

Edited October 22, 2018 by dave mcbride

[Jerome007]

I was one of the patient fans. And since the dead cap space is horrible now, but it will flip next year, plus the draft picks, I was on the camp of let them prove themselves. But this 7th blowout in 24 games under McD is a firable offense - at the very least he should really feel some heat now. Like he's lost his immunity he got from taking the team to the playoffs last year and being a new coach.

 

And while I did agree with getting rid of Dareus, paying the same amount of money for an average player like Star doesn't fill me with confidence they'll pay the right FA next year. The QB handling, from choosing & shipping out McCarron, sticking with Peterman, no mentor or coach for Allen before Anderson, etc. Many huge mistakes.

 

BUT, all that said,  if the team keeps fighting he deserves to make it to next year. If the players quit on him, and they did last game, then sorry, but it should be over for McD. Next games will decide IMO. Or should anyway.
 

With this yet another blowout, Shady injured, Allen injured, now this serious talk of McD getting fired, this season has really gone to hell unless a cure is magically found. Getting blown out and quitting are not acceptable.

[Best Player Available]

3 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

Yes, I thought that the winningest Buffalo Bills coach in nearly two decades deserved to stay beyond two years and did not deserve to be undermined.

 

Fun fact, the point differential and the relative offensive and defensive rankings were worse last year than the year before.

Yowzer, It's getting deep in here. Get my boots. 

[Peter]

Just now, Best Player Available said:

Yowzer, It's getting deep in here. Get my boots. 

 

Facts are facts.

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

Gailey's offense was lightyears better  than this team in every position besides running back. I don't think he's trying to build a defense first team, so much as he inherited a team that already had most of the defensive pieces in place, and doesn't really need to be rebuilt like the offense does. 

 

This is simply untrue. 

 

The offense had most of the pieces in place except for a QB.  It had the best OL and WR corps that any Bills team has had in this century, and the WRs were all young vets.  They had a good pass catching TE in Charles Clay who could also block (a bonus), and one of the very best RBs in the league.  This group was good enough to be about in the middle of the pack in most statistical measures.

 

The defense had some of the pieces, namely a solid if somewhat older DL and good CBs with Gilmore and Darby.  Preston Brown was serviceable at LB.  It needed to improve the back seven.  It was not a clutch, shut down defense like it had been under Marrone and Schwartz but that was more on coaching than on talent.

 

McDermott stripped the offense of virtually all its talent and replace talented players with bottom feeders and career backups.  He did somewhat better with the defense because he cares about the defense -- and special teams.  In McDermott's universe, the offense is his red-headed step-child who always gets the crumbs.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

24 minutes ago, mannc said:

So far, the evidence overwhelmingly shows that they don’t know what they are doing when it comes to offensive football.

 

Which evidence would that be? How much time/effort has been put into the offense, while we're at it? How many picks vis-a-vis the defense? How about FA acquisitions?

 

[cgg716]

Talent argument has no merit, look what Gailey did in not nearly as soft a league. No misdirection on offense or even that many bunch formations,  a good offensive coach, like Gailey, would do such things to minimize his talent defecit. 

 

All that matters in the modern nfl is offense, it will become even more prevalent in future years. The regime has shown no eye for even replacement level offensive talent or most importantly a coach who can design plays and schemes to work around those defecienes. Defense is irreverent now, we need to get ahead 

[BillsMafia13]

10 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

This is simply untrue. 

 

The offense had most of the pieces in place except for a QB.  It had the best OL and WR corps that any Bills team has had in this century, and the WRs were all young vets.  They had a good pass catching TE in Charles Clay who could also block (a bonus), and one of the very best RBs in the league.  This group was good enough to be about in the middle of the pack in most statistical measures.

 

The defense had some of the pieces, namely a solid if somewhat older DL and good CBs with Gilmore and Darby.  Preston Brown was serviceable at LB.  It needed to improve the back seven.  It was not a clutch, shut down defense like it had been under Marrone and Schwartz but that was more on coaching than on talent.

 

McDermott stripped the offense of virtually all its talent and replace talented players with bottom feeders and career backups.  He did somewhat better with the defense because he cares about the defense -- and special teams.  In McDermott's universe, the offense is his red-headed step-child who always gets the crumbs.

This really hurts to read.  Right in the fan bone

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, BillsMafia13 said:

This really hurts to read.  Right in the fan bone

 

Except he's totally wrong. Just because something's the best the bills have had in forever doesn't make it adequate. Tell me, what's Sam Watkins done since he left?

 

 

[SoTier]

24 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I can't disagree with this at all. I guess my only rejoinder is that aside from Zay Jones, the guys they acquired were always intended to be time servers until they went in big on the offense. Bear in mind that Matthews and Benjamin were either at the end of or near the end of their contracts. I doubt they would have traded for Benjamin if not for the improbable fact that they found themselves a playoff contender halfway through last season. 

 

"Time servers"?  Seriously, in the modern NFL a team can't afford to wait around for two or three seasons to decide they're "ready" to start building the offense.  The Bills had a chance to grab a seriously good QB in 2017, and they passed ... for a DB.  Compared to franchise QBs, great DBs are practically a dime a dozen.. 

 

The Bills then shed talent to gather draft picks in order to trade up to grab the fourth highest rated QB in the next draft who's clearly a project, and trade up again to get another first round project, this time a LB.   They could have filled numerous holes on both sides of the ball if they had used all the picks they had collected on more than 2 players.

 

Now, they are very likely to be picking in the top three in the 2019 draft, maybe even #1.  What if there are no great offensive prospects worth a top 3 pick?  What if the Bills get the #1 pick, there's a consensus #1 pick, and it's a QB?   That's the Bills dilemma because they passed on grabbing a good QB when they had the chance in 2017!

 

In the first round, where a team has the best chance to find success, you cannot make need or predetermined "plan" the primary reason for drafting a particular player.  If there's a talented QB available at your turn, you take him and don't trade back in order to draft a CB to replace the Pro Bowl CB that you let walk in free agency because you don't believe in paying DBs or WRs the market rate for players at their skill level.

[cgg716]

In 1/3 of McDermott’s games they have lost by 21 plus, suggesting in addition to this offensive garbage the defense isn’t as far along as we’d like either.