Allen not showing progress

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

But a bigger problem this game was conservative play-calling and receivers not being talented enough to get YAC and/or make plays on the ball down the field. 

 

The bomb down the field that was called back thanks to Captain Dimarco was a thing of beauty. There aren't many quarterbacks able to juke JJ Watt out of his shoes and get away from him then throw a completion 40+ yards on the field on the run.

 

 

 

 

Your YAC comment is spot on.  I think back to the quick pass he made to Bengimen in the flat after Allen made an audible.  How many times do you see a big WR shrug off the tackle of a DB coming in fast and gain another 10 - 15 yards  Not to mention KB had 50 pounds on that DB.

 

The throw that came back on the illegal formation was a thing of beauty as you noted.  First he got away from the best pass rusher in football and 2nd the pass was perfect. 

 

Allen still has a lot to work on to get better but it's clear that he's showing steady improvement.  The FACT that he has played against the best defenses of the 4 rookie QB's is a big deal and has impacted his development relative to those other guys. 

[Fred Clause]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Just watched the game over again (offense). It further confirmed my initial thought that Allen played much better than the stats showed.

 

The Watt sack was bad - 100% his fault. Two or three misfires (first pass attempt to Clay and deep throw on first possession down left sideline to Benjamin) as all quarterbacks have. He still has an issue of not trusting what he sees and holding the ball too long rather than just rocking-and-firing.

 

But a bigger problem this game was conservative play-calling and receivers not being talented enough to get YAC and/or make plays on the ball down the field. 

 

The bomb down the field that was called back thanks to Captain Dimarco was a thing of beauty. There aren't many quarterbacks able to juke JJ Watt out of his shoes and get away from him then throw a completion 40+ yards on the field on the run.

 

Allen was pretty streaky in college so I really would've liked to have seen how he did after that beautiful completion to Benjamin. Maybe the light went on and he finally decided to let 'er rip. But we'll never know.

 

Here's hoping The Franchise is healthy enough to play at home against the Bears.

 

 

If he puts the Benjamin pass on target, it’s most likely intercepted. Going long with the slowest receiver we have is foolish, he was double covered and he doesn’t fight for the ball. The Watts sack was his fault, I thought he could have stepped up on the other 3rd down sack if he would have trusted the line. By far his best appearance since Minnesota, definitely improving...

Edited October 18, 2018 by Fred Clause

[78thealltimegreat]

In the Tennessee game the guy throws the ball right at Andre Holmes hands and he still doesn’t catch it give this kid a break already they built this team backwards defense first with a raw qb instead of giving him any receiving help at all  

[Kelly the Dog]

1 hour ago, Fred Clause said:

If he puts the Benjamin pass on target, it’s most likely intercepted. Going long with the slowest receiver we have is foolish, he was double covered and he doesn’t fight for the ball. The Watts sack was his fault, I thought he could have stepped up on the other 3rd down sack if he would have trusted the line. By far his best appearance since Minnesota, definitely improving...

One of my pet peeves is talking about plays like this without context. I think you're absolutely right about the Benjamin pass.

 

The Watt sack, while yes, it is on Allen, context is needed here, too. Sure, he could have thrown it earlier and avoided the sack. But what he couldn't have done is thrown it earlier and likely got a first down. It was 3rd and 12. I want him trying to step out of that sack on 3rd and 12 and not giving up the possession. If it's second and 12 or 3rd and 6 it's a different story. He thought he could escape and he almost did. But I don't think that is such a bad attempt or decision. I hate giving up on a play on 3rd and 10+ unless you are in FG range.

[thebandit27]

9 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

One of my pet peeves is talking about plays like this without context. I think you're absolutely right about the Benjamin pass.

 

The Watt sack, while yes, it is on Allen, context is needed here, too. Sure, he could have thrown it earlier and avoided the sack. But what he couldn't have done is thrown it earlier and likely got a first down. It was 3rd and 12. I want him trying to step out of that sack on 3rd and 12 and not giving up the possession. If it's second and 12 or 3rd and 6 it's a different story. He thought he could escape and he almost did. But I don't think that is such a bad attempt or decision. I hate giving up on a play on 3rd and 10+ unless you are in FG range.

 

What you say is correct, though in defense of those that get on Allen for that play I'll say that his #1 problem in college was that he was constantly trying to do too much, and plays like the above really stick out to people that watched him at Wyoming as a continuation of a trend.

[Success]

There is a real absurdity to some of the hot take conclusions here.

 

I feel like we’re only a few years away from measuring progress from one play to the next, and if a QB has a good throw but follows it up the next play with an overthrow, we’ll see threads that “he’s regressing!”

[Rebel101]

On 10/14/2018 at 4:05 PM, PayDaBill$ said:

Is he really the answer? Looks like the least competent and ready of all the top 18 QB’s.  He’s really a raw talent almost makes we wonder if he’ll ever develop.

Well that is the exact scouting report on him coming out of college. We shouldn’t expect anything less. He is a rookie and as raw as they come. It’s up to him and the coaching staff to put in the work to fix his issues and to help him grow 

[colin]

i'm on record saying allen is gonna be favrelway, and i still think he will be (of course, a serious throwing arm injury may change that, so here we are).

 

While i totally agree only having a rookie (let a lone a raw one) and WOAT peterman on the roster at qb is inexcusable, if allen doesn't get dinged up we are 3-3 after a tough stretch of opponents and 4 on the road, and that's after peterman gift wrapped us our first loss (heck, he even delivered the 4th loss) and the d was woat for 6 quarters.  this shows that the coaching we have as a complete organization is at least decent.  i can see dabol just not being good enough (lining up wrong is disgusting) and our special teams leave me wanting much more as well.

[Soda Popinski]

13 hours ago, The_Dude said:

Thing with Allen is I believe he can be good but that he never will be and that’s why he was a dumb pick. 

 

I think Allen will run out of runway before the towel is thrown in because McBeane planned this thing so freaking poorly that they’re playing him before he’s ready. McBeane’s dumbasses are gonna get canned because of how atrociously they butchered this. 

 

Nobodys forgetting McDermott processed Mahomes to Kansas City. 

 

Then, gambling on a risky pick when a safer option was on the board — those are the moves that get guys canned. 

 

You dont draft Josh Allen unless you Pittsburgh, or LAC....and if ya do it, when you’re Buffalo, ya gotta have a better plan than ‘last girl to get asked to the dance’ in free agency, and the 5th round pick from the year before with a popgun arm, and fearless recklessness. 

 

And my god with, McDermott, I get it — he’s a defensive guy. That said, if ya wanna impress me, bolster your weakness with the talent when building and use your coaching/scheming ability to make the most out of the defense....but dude went balls to the wall on D, and left any/every QB on this team exposed. None of the 3 QBs when camp opened were solid ideas. And McDermott decided to surround those dudes with no help because he wanted to spend on defense? 

 

I cant believe he didn’t use one of the first two picks following Allen to get Allen a weapon. 

 

This is bad bad planning on McDermott and I think it causes Allen issues, and I think pressure mounts, and if McBeane get canned it may be a concession to the new coach that he doesn’t have to take Allen, and Allen gets released, and his career suffers, maybe flatlines. 

 

McDermotr’s offensive plan has been so idiotic from the get go. Which is another reason that makes me believe Allen’s screwed anyways, because Allen probably doesn’t have the coaches he needs around him. I could be wrong. Daboll could be great....it could all just be Allen starting too soon, or his just not being good. I don’t know. 

 

But I think McDermotts idiotic process has doomed him and Josh Allen to failure. 

 

We’ll see. Josh Allen will needa get good, real quick. 

I want to know how a guy who never threw for more than 250yds consistently in college is somehow going to do it in the pros.  I want to believe he can be developed.  But the odds are against him and the Bills to do it.  

 

When I watched Wentz his rookie year he was throwing the ball and making mistakes but you could see he was figuring things out.  He looked like he knew what he was doing just hadn't figured out how to do it consistently yet.  I don't see that from Allen yet.   

[Ayjent]

On 10/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, MAJBobby said:

 

I never did. I always said and will continue to Maintain the Bills did EJ wrong. 

 

But then again making the same development mistakes with Allen 

If you watched EJ in college he wasn't really anything to get excited about and was not a project - he was well coached, played many college games, and was exactly who he was in college - a guy that was wildly inconsistent with many different things that could drive a coach crazy (e.g., footwork, accuracy, not keeping his eyes down the field/not seeing things fast enough) but had been addressed year after year.  He wasn't raw - he just wasn't very good.   That's why he really never got better with experience - he was as ready as he was going to be when they started him.  

 

It was no surprise to me that people would get excited about his promise in a couple of games and then he would never deliver with consistency.  It was a bad pick and bad scouting - they had so many opportunities in the drafts before and after to address the position with better prospects, and failed to.  To me that is the Nix/Whaley legacy - they got talent on the team, but had no idea what they were doing with the QB position.  This regime looks like they are about equal in QB talent evaluation, but early results suggest that they may even be worse, although they are certainly more focused on the position.  Nix/Whaley loved drafting WRs, but none really materialized into top shelf talent. 

 

Now I think Allen is a rawer prospect than EJ, but he is also in a much worse situation with the lack of talent around him.  But I also think this "raw" title is only appropriate for guys who haven't been playing QB for long or came from systems that were drastically different than pro Offenses - I don't think either really apply to Allen, and he has really not shown many flashes at all of putting things together.  He is having a tough time making simple reads and throws, and his pocket presence leaves something to be desired.  Not saying he can't improve, but he has a long way to go and the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

[blacklabel]

On 10/14/2018 at 4:07 PM, WRONG JOSH said:

I feel like maybe there was another option in the draft thatwasmore nfl ready

 

That kid would be broken in 417 places behind this OL. His season would've ended on his first hit.

[oldmanfan]

25 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

If you watched EJ in college he wasn't really anything to get excited about and was not a project - he was well coached, played many college games, and was exactly who he was in college - a guy that was wildly inconsistent with many different things that could drive a coach crazy (e.g., footwork, accuracy, not keeping his eyes down the field/not seeing things fast enough) but had been addressed year after year.  He wasn't raw - he just wasn't very good.   That's why he really never got better with experience - he was as ready as he was going to be when they started him.  

 

It was no surprise to me that people would get excited about his promise in a couple of games and then he would never deliver with consistency.  It was a bad pick and bad scouting - they had so many opportunities in the drafts before and after to address the position with better prospects, and failed to.  To me that is the Nix/Whaley legacy - they got talent on the team, but had no idea what they were doing with the QB position.  This regime looks like they are about equal in QB talent evaluation, but early results suggest that they may even be worse, although they are certainly more focused on the position.  Nix/Whaley loved drafting WRs, but none really materialized into top shelf talent. 

 

Now I think Allen is a rawer prospect than EJ, but he is also in a much worse situation with the lack of talent around him.  But I also think this "raw" title is only appropriate for guys who haven't been playing QB for long or came from systems that were drastically different than pro Offenses - I don't think either really apply to Allen, and he has really not shown many flashes at all of putting things together.  He is having a tough time making simple reads and throws, and his pocket presence leaves something to be desired.  Not saying he can't improve, but he has a long way to go and the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

Go back and really watch his plays last game.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

The book on Allen is far from closed. 

 

But is anyone surprised that an Honorable Mention from the Mountain West who had documented red flags is playing a lot like his Scouting Reports?

 

He's been scatter shot on the accuracy, can't consistently read a defense, feels some phantom pressure, etc. 

 

He had 650 passing attempts in college. Baker Mayfield had 1500.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Straight Hucklebuck

[TucsonBillsFan]

It takes at least 5 years to judge QB GreatNess...JustSayin...

[Fred Clause]

1 hour ago, Soda Popinski said:

I want to know how a guy who never threw for more than 250yds consistently in college is somehow going to do it in the pros.  I want to believe he can be developed.  But the odds are against him and the Bills to do it.  

 

When I watched Wentz his rookie year he was throwing the ball and making mistakes but you could see he was figuring things out.  He looked like he knew what he was doing just hadn't figured out how to do it consistently yet.  I don't see that from Allen yet.   

If you are making this point, you didn’t pay attention to his college team which was run first and put him in a lot of bad situations of third and long. They were never a winning team before he came and with limited talent he had them well above 500. Context matters...

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, Fred Clause said:

If you are making this point, you didn’t pay attention to his college team which was run first and put him in a lot of bad situations of third and long. They were never a winning team before he came and with limited talent he had them well above 500. Context matters...

I understand the context but if you haven't seen it at the college level what makes you think it's going to magically happen at the pro level?   There was little to no film of him throwing the ball to analyze.   There were guys from bigger school with more tape out there to look at.   I still hope Allen becomes what we need him to be, I just never did understand what it was they fell in love with other than a big arm and a positive attitude.   

[Kelly the Dog]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

What you say is correct, though in defense of those that get on Allen for that play I'll say that his #1 problem in college was that he was constantly trying to do too much, and plays like the above really stick out to people that watched him at Wyoming as a continuation of a trend.

Why is trying to escape a sack on third and 12 to try to get a first down instead of giving up possession by throwing it away or 8 yards short of the first down “trying to do too much?”  I agree with the criticism in general but don’t at all agree to use that play or plays like it as an example. 

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Why is trying to escape a sack on third and 12 to try to get a first down instead of giving up possession by throwing it away or 8 yards short of the first down “trying to do too much?”  I agree with the criticism in general but don’t at all agree to use that play or plays like it as an example. 

 

If I were someone that was predisposed to believing that Allen will fail (and there are a significant number of them on this board), I would see a guy that scrambled and took an unnecessary hit instead of getting rid of the ball for a completion and at least giving my WR a chance to turn it into a first down.

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

If I were someone that was predisposed to believing that Allen will fail (and there are a significant number of them on this board), I would see a guy that scrambled and took an unnecessary hit instead of getting rid of the ball for a completion and at least giving my WR a chance to turn it into a first down.

He backpedaled and it was barely a hit. More like a shoestring tackle.

[John from Riverside]

38 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

I understand the context but if you haven't seen it at the college level what makes you think it's going to magically happen at the pro level?   There was little to no film of him throwing the ball to analyze.   There were guys from bigger school with more tape out there to look at.   I still hope Allen becomes what we need him to be, I just never did understand what it was they fell in love with other than a big arm and a positive attitude.   

Soda,

 

When he had guys that could actually play in the NFL to throw to he did put up some numbers.....when he was throwing to undraftable players he did not.....

 

Hasnt horse been beaten to death?

25 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

If I were someone that was predisposed to believing that Allen will fail (and there are a significant number of them on this board), I would see a guy that scrambled and took an unnecessary hit instead of getting rid of the ball for a completion and at least giving my WR a chance to turn it into a first down.

WR's have not been doing a lot of that this year......

[Soda Popinski]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Soda,

 

When he had guys that could actually play in the NFL to throw to he did put up some numbers.....when he was throwing to undraftable players he did not.....

 

Hasnt horse been beaten to death?

WR's have not been doing a lot of that this year......

I think that until he validates being drafted 7th overall that horse keeps breathing.   Now all the QBs drafted had flaws, so we would most likely be having this conversation regardless of who we drafted.   

[KGun12TD]

No O Line, WRs and he’s a raw talent rookie and you’re ready to dismiss him? Dude, stop drinking whatever you’re drinking now!

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, KGun12TD said:

No O Line, WRs and he’s a raw talent rookie and you’re ready to dismiss him? Dude, stop drinking whatever you’re drinking now!

Exactly!

 

Give it to me.

[Fred Clause]

2 hours ago, Soda Popinski said:

I understand the context but if you haven't seen it at the college level what makes you think it's going to magically happen at the pro level?   There was little to no film of him throwing the ball to analyze.   There were guys from bigger school with more tape out there to look at.   I still hope Allen becomes what we need him to be, I just never did understand what it was they fell in love with other than a big arm and a positive attitude.   

Maybe I wrong, but I thought they said they went to watch him play a few times his Sr. Year. He hasn’t been playing the position as long as the others and was considered more malleable. I don’t know if he will turn out, but they did do extensive research on him, this wasn’t a flash in the pan pick because Darnold was gone...

[Soda Popinski]

5 minutes ago, Fred Clause said:

Maybe I wrong, but I thought they said they went to watch him play a few times his Sr. Year. He hasn’t been playing the position as long as the others and was considered more malleable. I don’t know if he will turn out, but they did do extensive research on him, this wasn’t a flash in the pan pick because Darnold was gone...

I think they would have chosen him over Darnold if they had the opportunity.  

[Fred Clause]

27 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

I think they would have chosen him over Darnold if they had the opportunity.  

Possibly, possibly so.

[QuoteTheRaven83]

On 10/14/2018 at 4:05 PM, PayDaBill$ said:

Is he really the answer? Looks like the least competent and ready of all the top 18 QB’s.  He’s really a raw talent almost makes we wonder if he’ll ever develop.

 

This is what happens when the coaching staff fcks with the QB rotation through training camp and into 80% of the preseason, instead of giving him all the reps. 

[Soda Popinski]

1 minute ago, Fred Clause said:

Possibly, possibly so.

I want him to be our guy.   I really do.   But I'm not going to pretend I wasn't very disappointed when we passed on Rosen.   I know that's been beat to death up and down.  And that milk's on the floor.   Hopefully a full year just working on fundamentals in the offseason, a couple of free agent linemen and some good wrs will get him where he needs to be. 

 

I'll be honest though, I don't think 2019 will be the year.   I think that will be his 7-9 year as he improves, and in 2020 that will be the year we will know if he's a franchise QB or not. 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

This discussion is woefully premature.

[JoPar_v2]

Look for all his athleticism Allen is going to do the most damage stepping high in the pocket and firing passes with that howitzer of his. Don’t get me wrong it’s very nice that he can do both but I want to see that arm on display. For that to happen he needs to learn to feel an NFL pocket. He’s gonna get there. I think. He looks pretty bad so far but the talent jump he’s dealing with is immense.

[Soda Popinski]

9 minutes ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

This discussion is woefully premature.

you know why we're having it?   How can we trust the judgement of a front office that continues to ignore how bad Peterman is, who had no backup plan for how bad Peterman is, and who also passed on two solid NFL starting QBs the year before in Watson and Mahomes.  

 

Of course it's premature to have this conversation.   But as much as the position has been botched in the past 18 months I don't think it's uncalled for to have this conversation.   When it comes to pass/fail, really the only position that matters is the QB position.   

[billspro]

I actually think it will be good for him to watch DA for the next month. Gives him some time to review the games he played in and watch a veteran handle the offense. Hopefully the team will be playing at a higher level when he gets back too.

[BringBackFergy]

Can you direct me to the “Rosen Not Showing Progress” thread?

[BigBuff423]

I would disagree about not showing any progress because I think the ways he's improving are areas that don't show on the field....yet. When I read and listen to people who know far more about these things than I do - I will never claim to be an expert - they talk about his pocket presence improving, his footwork has shown some improvement, and settling down and not making plays that kill the opportunity, ala GB interception or basically anything from the first two games. The issue is that until those fundamental improvements become rooted in his mechanics and his game, along with getting better at reading Defenses pre-snap, those improvements will only show up in flashes or increments. 

 

To another extreme, for all the woeful and pitiful play Peterman put together in the game this season, I just don't know that Allen makes the throw Peterman made that gave the Bills the lead and their only TD against Houston. Then, Peterman Petermans and gives the game away because I think he was filled with confidence and thought his arm could do things it can't. So, I could be alone in this - but I just think once Allen gains that ability to mature mentally and able to read Defenses, his other mechanics have begun to show some improvement (still has times when he's flat-footed and shoulders not square to the target but it's gotten better), he will be just fine. He really did need this year to learn and adapt and grow. If Anderson plays well this week, I don't think Allen sees the field until after the bye....if at all. 

[cd1]

On 10/14/2018 at 5:17 PM, LFC24 said:

 

play to Clay on the 1st drive today where Clay was open with room to run, Allen had time to throw and pass was nowhere near him. Throws like that, he is constantly missing them. 

 

stop blaming everything on the supporting cast. yes we have the worst line in the league and prob the worst WR's but Allen is also a massive reason why our offense is historically bad. 

 

Ghosts! 

 

THIS is the problem with putting a rookie, who needs to be developed, on the field behind and offense that is not good enough to help him!  GHOSTS!

 

Ghosts are making for hurried throws and Ghosts are chasing him into the backfield instead of him climbing the pocket. 

 

Our "developing" QB is developing GHOSTS.

 

Bla, Bla, Bla...

[Soda Popinski]

1 hour ago, BringBackFergy said:

Can you direct me to the “Rosen Not Showing Progress” thread?

He didn't look very good last night at times, then at times he looked pretty good.   Looks way more comfortable throwing from the pocket than Allen.    and he was accurate with the ball, even when throwing interceptions. 

[thebandit27]

10 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

He didn't look very good last night at times, then at times he looked pretty good.   Looks way more comfortable throwing from the pocket than Allen.    and he was accurate with the ball, even when throwing interceptions. 

 

He looked utterly lost last night.

 

The first half was brutal.  He threw multiple picks, burned multiple timeouts due to confusion with scripted plays, and generally looked like he didn't belong on the field.

 

I mean, he easily could've had an 8 turnover night if Denver's DBs didn't drop 2-3 more INTs and his 3rd fumble didn't bounce right back to him.

 

As a guy that had Rosen as my QB1 for the 2018 draft (and supported drafting him over Allen), I definitely don't expect that to be the case every week, but that was atrocious in every way.

[jrober38]

6 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

He looked utterly lost last night.

 

The first half was brutal.  He threw multiple picks, burned multiple timeouts due to confusion with scripted plays, and generally looked like he didn't belong on the field.

 

I mean, he easily could've had an 8 turnover night if Denver's DBs didn't drop 2-3 more INTs and his 3rd fumble didn't bounce right back to him.

 

As a guy that had Rosen as my QB1 for the 2018 draft (and supported drafting him over Allen), I definitely don't expect that to be the case every week, but that was atrocious in every way.

 

Agreed. No reason to sugar coat anything. Rosen was absolutely abysmal last night.

 

That coaching staff might legitimately deserve to be fired 5 games into their tenure. Their team looks unprepared on a weekly basis, has no game plan whatsoever to take advantage of their skill players, is getting zero effort from their players and made the mistake of converting a pretty good 3-4 defense into a really bad 4-3 defense.

 

That situation in Arizona from top to bottom is a disaster. 

[CincyBillsFan]

20 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

He didn't look very good last night at times, then at times he looked pretty good.   Looks way more comfortable throwing from the pocket than Allen.    and he was accurate with the ball, even when throwing interceptions. 

 

I saw the game a lot differently then you did that's for sure.  Rosen was a wreck out there.  He missed several open receivers, threw 3 INTs and should have had 2 more.  Was careless with the ball fumbling  3 times & losing 2 of them.  His poor start doomed Arizona as they were down 21 - 3 in the 1st largely due to Rosen miscues.  

 

He also appeared to make several audibles on the run game and every time the play went for nothing.  Denver was clearly fooling him into thinking he could change the run play/blocking.  Most disturbing if I was an Arizona fan was Rosen's demeanor which was piss poor.  He openly threw a fit a couple of times after things didn't go his way which won't earn you many friends when your a rookie that's thrown 2 pick-sixes. 

 

Now does last nights game mean Rosen won't be a great NFL QB? Absolutely not.  All we saw was what happens when a rookie QB with a weak O-line goes up against a team with a decent pass rush.  Kind of like what Allen has faced this year only that in addition to a struggling O-line Allen has very little receiver talent around him.

 

My bet is that both Allen & Rosen will be at worst solid NFL QB's.  But only TIME will tell.  What I won't accept is any suggestion that Rosen is the better QB then Allen.  Last night should put that to rest. 

[aristocrat]

33 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

He didn't look very good last night at times, then at times he looked pretty good.   Looks way more comfortable throwing from the pocket than Allen.    and he was accurate with the ball, even when throwing interceptions. 

 

what freaking game were you watching?