So Eli Manning gets a pass but Josh Allen needs to produce NOW??

[Hapless Bills Fan]

31 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

So you fellas think I'm dumb. Well take a look at the preseason projections of the so called "experts" who have the Giants either winning the NFC East or having a record of 10-6 or better.  All based on the addition of Barkley, a solid WR corpse and an improved O Line.  So from day one, Eli has been given the benefit of the doubt given the improved team.

 

Yet Josh Allen has "Turnstile Trio" (Miller, Ducasse, Bodine), St. Francis High School JV split backs and a TE who averages a whopping 20 yards per game, yet he needs to sit??

 

This boy has fire in his belly, he's a wrecking machine and only wants to win. He needs to be unleashed.

 

Dude, one of the hallmarks of the "Troll" is the reiteration of a monotonic viewpoint while totally failing to acknowledge or respond to any viewpoints which logically disagree.  Just sayin'.

 

Your whole initial premise is faulty and false.  Eli is far from getting a "pass" for his play.  He is getting eviscerated in the press, before last night and worse now.

 

Next, Eli's struggles and Allen's are not comparable, because they have different root causes.  Eli has always been statuesque and needed a stout OL to function.  He's got the worst adjusted sack rate in the league at 12.7%, that's not because the OL is stout in front of him.  Eli can read D and make progressions, he's been doing it for 14 years.  The questions about Manning are, given enough time and WR separation, does he have enough arm yet to get it there and has his mobility gone from "adequate given protection" to "nonexistant"?  And finally, even the "Wreck of Elisha N Manning" is producing 6.7 ypa, 277 yds per game, and completing almost 68% of his passes.  We would all swoon for pass production like that from Allen at this point.

 

Now to this post:

Ivory and Shady are good backs, calling them "St Francis HS JV split backs" is appropriately described as "Dumb".  Allen has decent pass protection most of the time and when he doesn't, it's typically because of wrong protections or failure to read/react to the blitz, not because his OL are turnstiles, so at best that merits the "Ignorant of actual facts" description.  Finally, Allen has yet to show he can read a defense, identify and react to a blitzer, and on a regular basis make progressions and find the open man, which is the reason many think he'd benefit from more time to watch and learn and figure it out before having crazed 350 lb maniacs trying to eviscerate him on every snap.

 

And that, as they say, is that.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

We may be looking for an OC in a couple of years.

 

Shurmur made Bradford look functional and Keenum look very good.  Just sayin'.

[C.Biscuit97]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Passing on a Quarterback for a running back is going to haunt the Giants for a long time. 

Not if they end up with a top qb next year.  I think Herbert of Oregon is pretty good.

[Soda Popinski]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Not if they end up with a top qb next year.  I think Herbert of Oregon is pretty good.

I haven't seen any QBs really separate themselves from the pack.   I'm glad we got one in 2018 instead of going full Bills and drafting something stupid like a RB.   We've done that too many times to mention.   

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, BringBackFergy said:

So you fellas think I'm dumb. Well take a look at the preseason projections of the so called "experts" who have the Giants either winning the NFC East or having a record of 10-6 or better.  All based on the addition of Barkley, a solid WR corpse and an improved O Line.  So from day one, Eli has been given the benefit of the doubt given the improved team.

 

Yet Josh Allen has "Turnstile Trio" (Miller, Ducasse, Bodine), St. Francis High School JV split backs and a TE who averages a whopping 20 yards per game, yet he needs to sit??

 

This boy has fire in his belly, he's a wrecking machine and only wants to win. He needs to be unleashed.

Not dumb (if they did shame on them)  Stirring the pot?  Maybe.     

 

Imho (for whatever it means) Eli is done.  He was never great but good.   Stick a fork in the Giants.

[BringBackFergy]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Dude, one of the hallmarks of the "Troll" is the reiteration of a monotonic viewpoint while totally failing to acknowledge or respond to any viewpoints which logically disagree.  Just sayin'.

 

Your whole initial premise is faulty and false.  Eli is far from getting a "pass" for his play.  He is getting eviscerated in the press, before last night and worse now.

Pretty sure the media fawned over him in the early going this summer. Can provide links if needed. There are still Eli fans out there...can't say the NY media is calling for his head without them also noticing that OBJ and his crew have played less than stellar. Add the Oline to the mix and you have yourself a self-destructing ship. 

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Next, Eli's struggles and Allen's are not comparable, because they have different root causes.  Eli has always been statuesque and needed a stout OL to function.  He's got the worst adjusted sack rate in the league at 12.7%, that's not because the OL is stout in front of him.  Eli can read D and make progressions, he's been doing it for 14 years.  The questions about Manning are, given enough time and WR separation, does he have enough arm yet to get it there and has his mobility gone from "adequate given protection" to "nonexistant"?  And finally, even the "Wreck of Elisha N Manning" is producing 6.7 ypa, 277 yds per game, and completing almost 68% of his passes.  We would all swoon for pass production like that from Allen at this point.

Split backs are wide outs in high school parlance (as I recall).  Shady and Ivory are the bright spots on our team....our  WR's (on the other hand) are reminiscent of those I used to watch on a chilly October Saturday in Western NY.

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Now to this post:

Ivory and Shady are good backs, calling them "St Francis HS JV split backs" is appropriately described as "Dumb".  Allen has decent pass protection most of the time and when he doesn't, it's typically because of wrong protections or failure to read/react to the blitz, not because his OL are turnstiles, so at best that merits the "Ignorant of actual facts" description.  Finally, Allen has yet to show he can read a defense, identify and react to a blitzer, and on a regular basis make progressions and find the open man, which is the reason many think he'd benefit from more time to watch and learn and figure it out before having crazed 350 lb maniacs trying to eviscerate him on every snap.

Again, Manning is the "Pro Bowl, Superbowl winning QB" who continues to get the benefit of the doubt by those who say "Look at his Oline, look at his TE, etc" yet Josh Allen has no tools other than Shady. I'd wager that the Giants have $20 million invested in their Oline and WR's more than the Bills, but some are calling for Josh Allen to be thrown into the pit of misery?? And only after FOUR! (4!) (Quatro!) games?  I rest my cases.

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And that, as they say, is that.

 

 

 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

8 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

I haven't seen any QBs really separate themselves from the pack.   I'm glad we got one in 2018 instead of going full Bills and drafting something stupid like a RB.   We've done that too many times to mention.   

I definitely get this way of thinking and am somewhat on board with it.  That said, I don’t think you ever lose but putting special players on your team.  Barkley is a special player plus he is great in the pass game.

 

Obviously I’m not as high on Allen but I think I might actually like Herbert better.  Need to watch more of him though but he hastens phtsical skills and production in a big conference that I like.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Not if they end up with a top qb next year.  I think Herbert of Oregon is pretty good.

 

I am not at all convinced on him. Early days though. I have only seen two games on tv. Don't get in to the proper work until November. At the moment I have him, Drew Lock and Jarret Stidham all a bit of a jumble - I have seen all 3 look good once and awful once. Shea Patterson I am coming back round to a bit and Jake Browning is a solid low ceiling guy who looks like a backup at the pro level. I'll be honest after that I am struggling for guys I have seen who are draftable. I need to get back round on Will Grier not watched him this year yet and the numbers are respectable. But I watched him twice last year and thought he was awful both times so I am not starting from a good place on him. 

[Soda Popinski]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I definitely get this way of thinking and am somewhat on board with it.  That said, I don’t think you ever lose but putting special players on your team.  Barkley is a special player plus he is great in the pass game.

 

Obviously I’m not as high on Allen but I think I might actually like Herbert better.  Need to watch more of him though but he hastens phtsical skills and production in a big conference that I like.

Barkley looks incredible, so I get passing on QBs while you still have Eli.  If I were them I'd take the best QB I could in 2019 and go from there.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

43 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Pretty sure the media fawned over him in the early going this summer. Can provide links if needed. There are still Eli fans out there...can't say the NY media is calling for his head without them also noticing that OBJ and his crew have played less than stellar. Add the Oline to the mix and you have yourself a self-destructing ship.

 

OK, now this is better.  You're responding to other posts here.

 

The media gets a lot of stuff wrong during preseason.  The point is, Eli was facing a barrage of criticism based upon his play last year and is facing it this year as well, as his actual regular season play emerges.  He's not getting a "pass" for anything he's doing in this season's games.  The fact that his WR and OL are also being called doesn't change that.

Meanwhile, Allen critique is usually footnoted that he is playing with a poor OL and bad WR, like the "problems GO BEYOND" thread.

 

So your whole initial premise that Eli gets some kind of "pass" not offered to Allen appears flawed from the start.  They are both facing criticism, which also fairly points out the team's problems go beyond QB.

 

43 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Split backs are wide outs in high school parlance (as I recall).  Shady and Ivory are the bright spots on our team....our  WR's (on the other hand) are reminiscent of those I used to watch on a chilly October Saturday in Western NY.

 

I'm far from the football terminology maven but as far as I know, "split backs" remains a term for a side by side RB/HB vs an "I" formation where they are lined up behind each other as halfback and fullback.  HS, college, pro.   All the 'prep sports' coverage around here keeps stats on WR and the kids who play it refer to themselves as WR. 

 

43 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Again, Manning is the "Pro Bowl, Superbowl winning QB" who continues to get the benefit of the doubt by those who say "Look at his Oline, look at his TE, etc" yet Josh Allen has no tools other than Shady.

 

And Allen gets the same benefit of the doubt by people pointing out his WR are lacking in articles like Draft Network "Allen's struggles go beyond lackluster supporting cast".  "Lackluster cast" means WR, OL, and until last week, run game, see?  It's cutting him some slack for that. 

 

You have a point in that when a guy like Manning lasts in the league and wins 2 Superbowls, he has earned more "benefit of the doubt" or slack than a rookie who can't make reads yet and is struggling to learn the accuracy on his short throws that he failed to demonstrate in college.

 

I'm not sure what your point is there?  Alert the media, people with a track record of accomplishments usually get more "benefit of the doubt" than those who struggle without the track record behind them.  It's not some nefarious plot.

[TheFunPolice]

You'll never hear me say anything negative about Eli Manning or the Giants again...

 

They saved us from having to endure 19-0 AND another NE SB win after that. Without Eli making a few key throws and the Giants D shutting down Brady NE would be 7-1 in the Super Bowl. The thought of that brings vomit to the back of my throat.

[ctk232]

14 hours ago, RiotAct said:

well, two Super Bowl rings will afford him that luxury. 

Yup. Though it is about time he hung them up. He hasn't been a good QB for over four years now in all honesty. He isn't the only problem that franchise has, but the giants really need to move on. 

[njbuff]

How exactly is Eli getting a pass?

 

He is being crucified down here in the NYC area.

 

And it’s not pretty.

[Chuck Wagon]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not at all convinced on him. Early days though. I have only seen two games on tv. Don't get in to the proper work until November. At the moment I have him, Drew Lock and Jarret Stidham all a bit of a jumble - I have seen all 3 look good once and awful once. Shea Patterson I am coming back round to a bit and Jake Browning is a solid low ceiling guy who looks like a backup at the pro level. I'll be honest after that I am struggling for guys I have seen who are draftable. I need to get back round on Will Grier not watched him this year yet and the numbers are respectable. But I watched him twice last year and thought he was awful both times so I am not starting from a good place on him. 

 

 

Haskins?

[billsfan_34]

Yawn

[CodeMonkey]

I listened to espn sports radio driving to work today, Eli was definitely not getting a pass ... not in the least. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

No idea if this is the case.

 

Its hard to tell when Manning is getting sacked and or checking it down on most pass plays. 

 

Hes playing scared.

 

He can't be checking it down too hard, he's still over 7 ypa

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

Haskins?

 

He's a sophmore isn't he? 

[RobbRiddick]

16 hours ago, YodaMan79 said:

He can thank David Tyree and Mario Manningham for not being run out of NY 10 years ago.  He's never passed the eye test of being elite.  Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.  

I agree that Manning is overrated (actually, I don't think that many people rate him highly anyway) but you cannot give all the credit for those two plays to the receivers. On the Tyree catch Manning made an amazing play to avoid being sacked and to hang in there and spot the receiver. The Manningham play I've always seen as 50-50. Perfect throw and perfect catch.

 

You may as well say Montana should thank Clark for making The Catch.

 

And I will always have a special place in my heart for Manning as without him that arrogant bastard Brady would have another 2 Super Bowl wins and a perfect season to be smug about.

[Chuck Wagon]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He's a sophmore isn't he? 

 

 

Redshirt soph, could come out.

[The Red King]

I think a lot of people are missing the original point.  They were arguing that Eli did terribly his first season, but a lot of people were willing to give him a pass that season, yet four games in, people are already willing to write Allen off now.

 

The original post has nothing to do with Eli or the Giants this season.  It was comparing Eli and Allen's first seasons, and how people reacted to them.

[DuckyBoys]

2 minutes ago, The Red King said:

I think a lot of people are missing the original point.  They were arguing that Eli did terribly his first season, but a lot of people were willing to give him a pass that season, yet four games in, people are already willing to write Allen off now.

 

The original post has nothing to do with Eli or the Giants this season.  It was comparing Eli and Allen's first seasons, and how people reacted to them.

I thought they were talking about now.  Takes most rookie qbs some time to get going. Bills have been bad so long its tough to hang in there and have patience but that is what we all need to do.  If people want to feel better by condemning the choice of Allen its fine by me. Whatever floats your boat.  I am happy we at least took a 1st round qb.  That playoff game last year brought back by my Trent Edwards related PTSD

[Kemp]

Allen is the 45th best ranked QB in the NFL so far this season.

 

Awesome. 

[fridge]

I think Eli Manning has had a fantastic career and is neither overrated nor underrated. He's on a very short list of guys that won two superbowls, and the only to do it against Brady twice.

 

How a Bills fan, given what we've endured for the last 20 years, can think Eli is anything but Elite is bafffling to me.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, The Red King said:

I think a lot of people are missing the original point.  They were arguing that Eli did terribly his first season, but a lot of people were willing to give him a pass that season, yet four games in, people are already willing to write Allen off now.

 

The original post has nothing to do with Eli or the Giants this season.  It was comparing Eli and Allen's first seasons, and how people reacted to them.

 

It's a nice theory, but since the OP specifically mentioned players who are there this season: " This is despite his having a solid TE, Shepherd and the highest paid WR in the league (OBJackass).  " I think you're incorrect.

[DuckyBoys]

To be honest Eli was misfiring check downs  He does look done.  Shurmur's scheme isnt doing him any favors and Janoris Jenkins got beat like a Salvation Army Drum

[BringBackFergy]

4 hours ago, The Red King said:

I think a lot of people are missing the original point.  They were arguing that Eli did terribly his first season, but a lot of people were willing to give him a pass that season, yet four games in, people are already willing to write Allen off now.

 

The original post has nothing to do with Eli or the Giants this season.  It was comparing Eli and Allen's first seasons, and how people reacted to them.

Well done!!

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's a nice theory, but since the OP specifically mentioned players who are there this season: " This is despite his having a solid TE, Shepherd and the highest paid WR in the league (OBJackass).  " I think you're incorrect.

Well, the same issue rears its ugly head: what does/did Eli have as a rookie/now vs. Josh Allen.  I gotta say, there’s a huuge difference. 

[26CornerBlitz]

4 hours ago, The Red King said:

I think a lot of people are missing the original point.  They were arguing that Eli did terribly his first season, but a lot of people were willing to give him a pass that season, yet four games in, people are already willing to write Allen off now.

 

The original post has nothing to do with Eli or the Giants this season.  It was comparing Eli and Allen's first seasons, and how people reacted to them.

 

  Might I suggest you read the OP for a 2nd time.  

 

23 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

Funny how Eli Manning can look like absolute trash and the overwhelming majority give him a pass. This is despite his having a solid TE, Shepherd and the highest paid WR in the league (OBJackass). 

 

Yet, Josh Allen has a mishmash of WR’s, a suspect line and is starting his FOURTH game and some of the experts think he should sit. 

 

Sad

 

[BringBackFergy]

4 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

  Might I suggest you read the OP for a 2nd time.  

 

 

I see your point, but this season and Eli’s rookie season are similar: Decent RB, above average WR’s (two) and a serviceable Oline. This is all better than what Jallen is working with. So Eli is cool yet Jallen is bad ?? I don’t buy it. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by BringBackFergy

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

I see your point, but this season and Eli’s rookie season are similar: Decent RB, above average WR’s (two) and a serviceable Oline. This is all better than what Jallen is working with. So Eli is cool yet Jallen is bad ?? I don’t buy it. 

Some people just hold some crazy grudges.  

 

I dont get it. But I get it.  You can’t help but wonder 

[FearLess Price]

People jus mad cuz JA is the worst rookie qb starting as of now. We knew this going into the season!  He was always supposed to have the highest celing and lowest floor. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

On 10/11/2018 at 9:37 PM, BringBackFergy said:

Funny how Eli Manning can look like absolute trash and the overwhelming majority give him a pass. This is despite his having a solid TE, Shepherd and the highest paid WR in the league (OBJackass). 

 

Yet, Josh Allen has a mishmash of WR’s, a suspect line and is starting his FOURTH game and some of the experts think he should sit. 

 

Sad

How is this connected to Josh Allen in any way? 

 

“Overwhelming majority” is giving a pass? Eli is getting a lot of heat. 

 

The way Bills fans think is strange. Always on a crusade to deflect any criticism and lower the bar so they feel better about themselves. 

 

 

[BringBackFergy]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

How is this connected to Josh Allen in any way? 

 

“Overwhelming majority” is giving a pass? Eli is getting a lot of heat. 

 

The way Bills fans think is strange. Always on a crusade to deflect any criticism and lower the bar so they feel better about themselves. 

 

 

Relates to Jallen because....well...it just does. 

 

[MAJBobby]

On 10/11/2018 at 9:37 PM, BringBackFergy said:

Funny how Eli Manning can look like absolute trash and the overwhelming majority give him a pass. This is despite his having a solid TE, Shepherd and the highest paid WR in the league (OBJackass). 

 

Yet, Josh Allen has a mishmash of WR’s, a suspect line and is starting his FOURTH game and some of the experts think he should sit. 

 

Sad

 

Multiple SB wins and Playoff Wins does that for ya 

[KD in CA]

On 10/12/2018 at 10:31 AM, CodeMonkey said:

I listened to espn sports radio driving to work today, Eli was definitely not getting a pass ... not in the least. 

 

Nope, not even close.  I was positive the Giants were going to draft a QB at #2 last year. Their saving grace is that they'll almost certainly get another bite at the apple next draft.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/giants-players-frustration-with-eli-mannings-deteriorating-play-is-boiling-over/

[flaz]

On 10/11/2018 at 9:37 PM, BringBackFergy said:

Funny how Eli Manning can look like absolute trash and the overwhelming majority give him a pass. This is despite his having a solid TE, Shepherd and the highest paid WR in the league (OBJackass). 

 

Yet, Josh Allen has a mishmash of WR’s, a suspect line and is starting his FOURTH game and some of the experts think he should sit. 

 

Sad

 

Im truly shocked that you think Allen deserves the right to work himself through his rookie year. You and I both know for a fact that Josh is trash and should be replaced by Nate, with Anderson as his backup. Beane and McD are to proud to admit that they missed horribly on this kid and will probably be replaced in the offseason. Pegs and his hot wife have no clue how a real NFL team is supposed to operate. For them, the Bills are just a rich man's toy. We all know that once they tire of this shiny new toy they surely will sell the Bills to the highest bidder, who will ship them to Toronto. I feel bad for those poor canadian fans,  they will be feeling the same pain we Buffalonians have felt for so many long years. Shame on you Fergy, you should know better

[Fadingpain]

If Eli was a Bill and had beaten the Patriots twice in the Super Bowl, I'd give him a pass for the rest of his life.

 

And every time I got frustrated that he's not that good anymore, I'd look at my commemorative Superbowl XLII and XLVI championship shirts and relax.