The Rosen Era Has Begun in Arizona

[thebandit27]

7 minutes ago, WhyteDwarf said:

 

Maybe my expectations for a rookie are too high, but I'll tell you, my expectations are only going to go up next season especially if they do indeed "take out the trash".

 

Ok, well, what are/were your expectations of a kid that played 2 years at Wyoming?

 

I've said this before, but it's worth noting again: most people have no idea how hard it is to be a rookie--any rookie--in the NFL, let alone a QB.

 

When you come into the league as a rookie, you've been practicing, training, and competing from August to December as a college player.  When that ends, you immediately begin training for the draft, which is a 3-1/2 month run of constant workouts, interviews, visits, studying, etc.  After the draft, you have about 2 weeks to get your bearings before you start rookie camp--a process that includes finding a place to live, moving any family that will be coming with you, taking care of other life stuff, etc..  After that, you've got a week before OTAs begin, and that's when the off-season basically ends for NFL veterans. By the time a rookie completes their first NFL season in December, they've been in season-mode for about 17 consecutive months (and that's if they don't make the playoffs).

 

Read the above back to yourself, and then stop and ask: what did you really expect from a kid that was playing at Wyoming 11 months ago?

[WhyteDwarf]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Ok, well, what are/were your expectations of a kid that played 2 years at Wyoming?

 

I've said this before, but it's worth noting again: most people have no idea how hard it is to be a rookie--any rookie--in the NFL, let alone a QB.

 

When you come into the league as a rookie, you've been practicing, training, and competing from August to December as a college player.  When that ends, you immediately begin training for the draft, which is a 3-1/2 month run of constant workouts, interviews, visits, studying, etc.  After the draft, you have about 2 weeks to get your bearings before you start rookie camp--a process that includes finding a place to live, moving any family that will be coming with you, taking care of other life stuff, etc..  After that, you've got a week before OTAs begin, and that's when the off-season basically ends for NFL veterans. By the time a rookie completes their first NFL season in December, they've been in season-mode for about 17 consecutive months (and that's if they don't make the playoffs).

 

Read the above back to yourself, and then stop and ask: what did you really expect from a kid that was playing at Wyoming 11 months ago?

 

But all rookie QB's go through that correct?  Some play better than others?  Watson, Mayfield, Jackson etc.

[Bray Wyatt]

5 minutes ago, WhyteDwarf said:

 

Yes, if he is surrounded with more talent, I expect more of everything from him.  Not sure I'd want to go as far as expecting playoff's, but I want to see a higher completion %, more passes, more yards, better TD:INT ratio, and ofc more wins.

 

I expect a franchise QB.

 

You want that from him now though

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, WhyteDwarf said:

 

But all rookie QB's go through that correct?  Some play better than others?  Watson, Mayfield, Jackson etc.

 

lol Jackson GTFO here

 

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

 

First, why would I include Pederson?  My examples were of Offensive Coaches who arrived in their QBs second season and saved both of them (Goff and Trubiskys) from going in the bust bin and have them playing at Playoff level caliber (hint...both teams already have their divisions wrapped up and a combined record of 32-12).  Pederson if I recall and Wentz both arrived with the Eagles together.  So it’s not like the Eagles brought in Pederson to SAVE Wentz.

 

Second, I didn’t even mention Coach McDermott so exactly how is it a crusade against him?  I said the best thing for Rosen and Darnold would be to get an Offensive Minded Head Coach.  I am more convinced that having a strong defensive minded head coach is very important for Allen and this team right now.  Plus...McDermott has had enough success to not even warrant any thought of coaching change right now.

 

Come on now.

 

There's an important parallel to draw between Allen and Goff/Trubisky.  All 3 had very similar starts, though Allen is probably playing a bit better than those guys did as rookies (not that that means anything; he's just a more talented guy is all).

 

Both Goff and Trubisky made huge strides in year 2 because they were given a fresh, innovative offensive play-caller and got a hugely revamped set of playmakers surrounding them.

 

For Goff, McVay came in and added Woods, Watkins, Kupp, G. Everett, Higbee, Reynolds, and Whitworth.

For Trubisky, Nagy came in and added Robinson, Gabriel, Miller, Burton, and James Daniels.

 

If Allen is given the same overhaul in offensive weapons, could we see the same jump?  I don't know, but I sure hope they give him the chance.

[Gugny]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

There's an important parallel to draw between Allen and Goff/Trubisky.  All 3 had very similar starts, though Allen is probably playing a bit better than those guys did as rookies (not that that means anything; he's just a more talented guy is all).

 

Both Goff and Trubisky made huge strides in year 2 because they were given a fresh, innovative offensive play-caller and got a hugely revamped set of playmakers surrounding them.

 

For Goff, McVay came in and added Woods, Watkins, Kupp, G. Everett, Higbee, Reynolds, and Whitworth.

For Trubisky, Nagy came in and added Robinson, Gabriel, Miller, Burton, and James Daniels.

 

If Allen is given the same overhaul in offensive weapons, could we see the same jump?  I don't know, but I sure hope they give him the chance.

 

The question (to me) is can he succeed with McDermott/Daboll?  Coaching has been, and is, my biggest concern with the future of the team.

[WhyteDwarf]

1 minute ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

You want that from him now though

 

Can't say I've never been accused of expecting too much out of others.  This is supposed to be a Rosen thread, so...

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, WhyteDwarf said:

 

But all rookie QB's go through that correct?  Some play better than others?  Watson, Mayfield, Jackson etc.

 

Yes, all rookies go through that.

 

And yes, some play better than others...it's almost like all of these kids develop at a different rate.  Weird.

 

And just for some house-cleaning, it's probably a bit disingenuous to be listing Jackson next to Mayfield on that list, and neither of them belong in the same universe as rookie Deshaun Watson.

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

The question (to me) is can he succeed with McDermott/Daboll?  Coaching has been, and is, my biggest concern with the future of the team.

 

Daboll has really grown on me.  His play designs have always been pretty good, but his play-calling has gotten much better as the season has worn on...I'm intrigued to see what he can do when he's given a whole offseason to work with players that don't belong in the CFL.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

The question (to me) is can he succeed with McDermott/Daboll?  Coaching has been, and is, my biggest concern with the future of the team.

 

Food for thought: The dude could have a winning season as a rookie, with absolute TRASH around him on offense. If that's not indicative of successful coaching, then I don't know what is.

 

[WhyteDwarf]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Yes, all rookies go through that.

 

And yes, some play better than others...it's almost like all of these kids develop at a different rate.  Weird.

 

And just for some house-cleaning, it's probably a bit disingenuous to be listing Jackson next to Mayfield on that list, and neither of them belong in the same universe as rookie Deshaun Watson.

 

I put Jackson on my list because I didn't think he had any business being drafted in the 1st round yet has taken Flacco's job and is 4-1 as a starter.

[Gugny]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Yes, all rookies go through that.

 

And yes, some play better than others...it's almost like all of these kids develop at a different rate.  Weird.

 

And just for some house-cleaning, it's probably a bit disingenuous to be listing Jackson next to Mayfield on that list, and neither of them belong in the same universe as rookie Deshaun Watson.

 

Daboll has really grown on me.  His play designs have always been pretty good, but his play-calling has gotten much better as the season has worn on...I'm intrigued to see what he can do when he's given a whole offseason to work with players that don't belong in the CFL.

 

2 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Food for thought: The dude could have a winning season as a rookie, with absolute TRASH around him on offense. If that's not indicative of successful coaching, then I don't know what is.

 

 

 

Bandit - I agree that Daboll's play calling has improved and become more consistent (committing to the run) and I'm hopeful that he continues to be malleable based on the talent he's got (or lack thereof) at his disposal.

 

Joe - Good point, re: the lack of talent around him.  I just don't know that it's a product of good coaching or that Allen is just finding a way.  As Bandit stated, Daboll looks much better today than he did early in the season.  I'm hopeful and cautiously optimistic about him and McDermott.  I'm legitimately VERY optimistic about Allen. 

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, WhyteDwarf said:

 

I put Jackson on my list because I didn't think he had any business being drafted in the 1st round yet has taken Flacco's job and is 4-1 as a starter.

 

Well, you also didn't think that Allen belonged being drafted in the first round, and yet he's taken the starting job.

 

Sure, he's not 4-1, he also didn't get the benefit of learning behind Flacco (and RG3 for that matter) or playing with a cast of playmakers that includes multiple 1st-round pass-catchers and a resurgent John Brown, nor does he play behind an offensive line the caliber of Baltimore's.

[WhyteDwarf]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Well, you also didn't think that Allen belonged being drafted in the first round, and yet he's taken the starting job.

 

Sure, he's not 4-1, he also didn't get the benefit of learning behind Flacco (and RG3 for that matter) or playing with a cast of playmakers that includes multiple 1st-round pass-catchers and a resurgent John Brown, nor does he play behind an offensive line the caliber of Baltimore's.

 

Well, lol, who exactly has Allen taken the job from!  I see your points, but I'm still not sold on Allen as the future franchise QB.  And I guess we need to stop, this is a thread for the other Josh.

Edited December 18, 2018 by WhyteDwarf

[Dr. Who]

2 minutes ago, WhyteDwarf said:

 

Well, lol, who exactly has Allen taken the job from!  I see your points, but I'm still not sold on Allen as the future franchise QB.  

Ahh, I'm not sold on you as a future poster on these boards, though you'll probably reincarnate at a karmic level above your just due.

[Mrbojanglezs]

2 hours ago, eball said:

 

How ironic!

 

LOL. 

[87168]

26 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

lol Jackson GTFO here

 

Lamar Jackson is 4-1 as a starter, with the only loss coming from KC (of all teams) in overtime.

 

it's ok to be wrong.

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

 

 

Bandit - I agree that Daboll's play calling has improved and become more consistent (committing to the run) and I'm hopeful that he continues to be malleable based on the talent he's got (or lack thereof) at his disposal.

 

Daboll looks better and more consistent as Allen as looked better and more consistent and as we have found a couple of young receivers who might not run full route trees but are better and more consistent running the few routes they are trying to execute than the worse and less consistent vets the replaced.

 

I don't think Daboll was the problem at any stage this year. The problem was the players. As Allen has got better and the young receivers have come on the Bills offense is easier to call plays for because we finally have some things we can do well rather than nothing.

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, 87168 said:

Lamar Jackson is 4-1 as a starter, with the only loss coming from KC (of all teams) in overtime.

 

it's ok to be wrong.

He's also faced a defensive dvoa average ranking of 28 - literally 5 of the 7 worse defenses in the NFL, with a better offensive line and better playmakers around him

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

He's also faced a defensive dvoa average ranking of 28 - literally 5 of the 7 worse defenses in the NFL, with a better offensive line and better playmakers around him

ANDDDDDDD has a whole bunch of playmakers to help him, and an offensive line.

 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

9 minutes ago, 87168 said:

Lamar Jackson is 4-1 as a starter, with the only loss coming from KC (of all teams) in overtime.

 

it's ok to be wrong.

 

Yeah, but he's doing it running an advanced version of the wildcat. That does not make him the better QB. 

[Gugny]

22 minutes ago, 87168 said:

Lamar Jackson is 4-1 as a starter, with the only loss coming from KC (of all teams) in overtime.

 

it's ok to be wrong.

 

W-L are team stats; not QB stats.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

There is simply no conclusion to be drawn at this time. 

[HappyDays]

 

[SWATeam]

21 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

There is simply no conclusion to be drawn at this time. 

You can be sure that if Allen had looked as bad as Rosen so far, people would be drawing conclusions...

[BillsMafia13]

On 10/21/2018 at 11:58 AM, WRONG JOSH said:

Josh Rosen is a highly touted rookie QB, albeit a struggling one at the moment. Josh Allen is a good athlete. I think Josh Allen would make a good H-back. Maybe we can sign him and Tebow and run the wing T offense because we sure as heck can't pass the ball with any consistency. Ground and pound baby!

 

If you guys think he's all of a sudden going to "get it" then you are delusional. He's never been a good passing QB at any level of competition. I hear a lot of people saying dumb things like Mahomes was a project and he panned out so Allen can too! You do realize that Allen has only had 2 300-yard passing games in his entire life right? Mahomes AVERAGED over 400 yards per game passing in college against much better competition. Different offenses sure but he showed a propensity to air it out and complete passes when given the opportunity. Allen is never going to be that guy. In today's NFL, 300 yards is a pretty average day for a good QB. We will never see that kind of passing attack under Allen. Maybe we can win some games with good defense but we will never be better than a .500 team +- 1 game until we get a QB that can consistently pass the ball down the field

All your 'truth" is doing you a lot of good now.  You deserve to have your fan card revoked after next year when Allen is looking like the real deal and Rosen is falling down chucking ducks.  SHAME

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

The question (to me) is can he succeed with McDermott/Daboll?  Coaching has been, and is, my biggest concern with the future of the team.

Like Bandit, I'm a Daboll fan. I can't think of a game where I've been questioning the playcalling repeatedly. It generally makes sense. I can't say the same about Dennison at all.

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said:

All your 'truth" is doing you a lot of good now.  You deserve to have your fan card revoked after next year when Allen is looking like the real deal and Rosen is falling down chucking ducks.  SHAME

 

"WRONG JOSH" has to be trolling.   It's ok to be critical of Josh Allen in terms of getting a little more accurate and taking check downs when there's nothing there, but I literally can't comprehend how a Bills fan can watch Allen, post-injury, and be anything but excited for our future. 

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

You can be sure that if Allen had looked as bad as Rosen so far, people would be drawing conclusions...

 

The truth is that while everyone knows that they shouldn't draw Quarterback conclusions during rookie seasons, everyone in fact does..... it is just what we do. We are football fans we watch football and comment on what we see. A rookie comes and lights it up we say "wow he is great" a rookie looks bad we say "oh he sucks" Goff, Wentz and to a lesser extent Trubisky (and even in the other direction Dak Prescott) show the folly of such early determinations. But we still all make them.... even when we know we shouldn't. That's life. The idea people would ever sit tight and watch two years of Josh Allen starting all 16 games quietly and then say "okay now I can make a judgment...." it was just never going to happen. He is playing pretty well for a rookie since his injury - on Sunday I thought he played pretty well period, hence people are excited and think he is going to be great. If he was playing poorly you are right people would be saying "bust". The reality is we don't know either way yet and we can't know either way yet.... but it looks positive at this stage and actually the finding out is half of the fun isn't it?

[BillsMafia13]

32 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

"WRONG JOSH" has to be trolling.   It's ok to be critical of Josh Allen in terms of getting a little more accurate and taking check downs when there's nothing there, but I literally can't comprehend how a Bills fan can watch Allen, post-injury, and be anything but excited for our future. 

But he'g got like 10k posts, thats an ogre not a troll.  I can understand being mad the night of but damn near every single point is in favor of Allen. We knew what we were getting at this point but I dont see how Allen isnt better than advertised and Rosen isnt worse (I knew he would be, hes mentally softer than baby sh*t)

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

On 10/21/2018 at 11:58 AM, WRONG JOSH said:

Josh Rosen is a highly touted rookie QB, albeit a struggling one at the moment. Josh Allen is a good athlete. I think Josh Allen would make a good H-back. Maybe we can sign him and Tebow and run the wing T offense because we sure as heck can't pass the ball with any consistency. Ground and pound baby!

 

If you guys think he's all of a sudden going to "get it" then you are delusional. He's never been a good passing QB at any level of competition. I hear a lot of people saying dumb things like Mahomes was a project and he panned out so Allen can too! You do realize that Allen has only had 2 300-yard passing games in his entire life right? Mahomes AVERAGED over 400 yards per game passing in college against much better competition. Different offenses sure but he showed a propensity to air it out and complete passes when given the opportunity. Allen is never going to be that guy. In today's NFL, 300 yards is a pretty average day for a good QB. We will never see that kind of passing attack under Allen. Maybe we can win some games with good defense but we will never be better than a .500 team +- 1 game until we get a QB that can consistently pass the ball down the field

[WhyteDwarf]

7 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said:

But he'g got like 10k posts, thats an ogre not a troll.  I can understand being mad the night of but damn near every single point is in favor of Allen. We knew what we were getting at this point but I dont see how Allen isnt better than advertised and Rosen isnt worse (I knew he would be, hes mentally softer than baby sh*t)

 

I liked Rosen too, but then I watched him in pre-season and some some of his reactions to bad plays and, yeah, I don't think he's very mentally tough.

[eball]

39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The truth is that while everyone knows that they shouldn't draw Quarterback conclusions during rookie seasons, everyone in fact does..... it is just what we do. We are football fans we watch football and comment on what we see. A rookie comes and lights it up we say "wow he is great" a rookie looks bad we say "oh he sucks" Goff, Wentz and to a lesser extent Trubisky (and even in the other direction Dak Prescott) show the folly of such early determinations. But we still all make them.... even when we know we shouldn't. That's life. The idea people would ever sit tight and watch two years of Josh Allen starting all 16 games quietly and then say "okay now I can make a judgment...." it was just never going to happen. He is playing pretty well for a rookie since his injury - on Sunday I thought he played pretty well period, hence people are excited and think he is going to be great. If he was playing poorly you are right people would be saying "bust". The reality is we don't know either way yet and we can't know either way yet.... but it looks positive at this stage and actually the finding out is half of the fun isn't it?

 

Very well said, and I commend you for posting this as one of Allen's biggest pre-draft detractors.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Very well said, and I commend you for posting this as one of Allen's biggest pre-draft detractors.

 

I said the day after the draft I would evaluate him fairly on what he does on the field for Buffalo. I would like to think people recognise I have kept to that. When he has struggled I have said he has struggled. When he has played well I have said he has played well. I think predicting him as the 2019 MVP is over optimism but I totally understand the positivity, he has taken a very obvious step since returning from injury - it is indisputable. At the moment things are trending the right way.

[Gugny]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I said the day after the draft I would evaluate him fairly on what he does on the field for Buffalo. I would like to think people recognise I have kept to that. When he has struggled I have said he has struggled. When he has played well I have said he has played well. I think predicting him as the 2019 MVP is over optimism but I totally understand the positivity, he has taken a very obvious step since returning from injury - it is indisputable. At the moment things are trending the right way.

 

To eBall's point, you've been very fair and unbiased in your weekly assessments.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, SWATeam said:

You can be sure that if Allen had looked as bad as Rosen so far, people would be drawing conclusions...

 

Allen had ups and Downs as has Rosen, and plenty of people are drawing plenty of conclusions.

 

Much of Allen’s fanfare has come from his mobility btw, which Rosen doesn’t have.

[MILFHUNTER#518]

34 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

You just made a crappy morning better thanks man!

[thebandit27]

2 hours ago, WhyteDwarf said:

 

Well, lol, who exactly has Allen taken the job from!  I see your points, but I'm still not sold on Allen as the future franchise QB.  And I guess we need to stop, this is a thread for the other Josh.

 

I doubt there are many that are indeed sold on him.

 

I mean, for my part, I was a huge supporter of the top tier of the 2018 QB class.  I felt pre-draft that all 5 guys had a real chance to be franchise QBs, and that all of them should be 1st round (if not top-10) picks.  I see absolutely no reason to deviate from that opinion at this point.

 

That said, there's no reason to declare a guy a franchise QB after one season.  Look no further than Dak Prescott for an example of why that's not a great idea.  Unbelievable rookie season, yet here we are 2 years later, and we still have no idea if he's a franchise guy.

[John from Riverside]

On 10/21/2018 at 8:58 AM, WRONG JOSH said:

Josh Rosen is a highly touted rookie QB, albeit a struggling one at the moment. Josh Allen is a good athlete. I think Josh Allen would make a good H-back. Maybe we can sign him and Tebow and run the wing T offense because we sure as heck can't pass the ball with any consistency. Ground and pound baby!

 

If you guys think he's all of a sudden going to "get it" then you are delusional. He's never been a good passing QB at any level of competition. I hear a lot of people saying dumb things like Mahomes was a project and he panned out so Allen can too! You do realize that Allen has only had 2 300-yard passing games in his entire life right? Mahomes AVERAGED over 400 yards per game passing in college against much better competition. Different offenses sure but he showed a propensity to air it out and complete passes when given the opportunity. Allen is never going to be that guy. In today's NFL, 300 yards is a pretty average day for a good QB. We will never see that kind of passing attack under Allen. Maybe we can win some games with good defense but we will never be better than a .500 team +- 1 game until we get a QB that can consistently pass the ball down the field

Take a lap

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

To eBall's point, you've been very fair and unbiased in your weekly assessments.

 

People just seem to presume I will have a bias towards my opinion pre-draft. Opinions are only worth having if you reserve the right to change them with evidence. People who think something once and therefore think it forevermore are fools. My only bias is towards the Buffalo Bills ?

[Gugny]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Take a lap

 

You spelled leap wrong.