Does the play of the other QBs impact Allen’s timeline?

[Kirby Jackson]

This discussion has been had in various threads and thought that it may be wise to break it out and attach a poll. I’m of the belief that the play of McCarron and/or Peterman has little to no effect on when Allen plays. In my opinion, he is playing when he’s ready. 

 

Hypothetically, as of opening day the Bills believe that Allen is ready to play but Peterman gives them a better chance to win. Who do you think starts? 

[TFBillsfan]

No doubt that Peterman has continued to improve but his skill set is more of a serviceable QB. As I watch this competition unfold, I keep asking myself if the Bills get down 10 points in a game, what QB on the roster can bring them back. My eyes say that is Allen by a big margin. AJM injury stinks as that may accelerate Allen starting sooner than expected. Peterman’s arm strength concerns me every time he throws a deep out. I don’t any defense fears him beating them deep consistently. Prior to his injury I was hoping AJM would play well enough to start at the beginning of the season, but his play was very conservative. 

 

Not the best scenario but at this point but I think Allen is the starter unless the wheels fall off.

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This discussion has been had in various threads and thought that it may be wise to break it out and attach a poll. I’m of the belief that the play of McCarron and/or Peterman has little to no effect on when Allen plays. In my opinion, he is playing when he’s ready. 

 

Hypothetically, as of opening day the Bills believe that Allen is ready to play but Peterman gives them a better chance to win. Who do you think starts? 

I think they are mostly one and the same. And I don't think it's possible that Allen is ready to play and Peterman gives them a better chance to win. If he's ready to play he gives them a better chance to win by definition. He can do ten different things that Peterman can't. 

 

I also think that Allen in the game alone has an enormous affect on the run game, similar to how having Tyrod in the game had an affect on the run game. And without it we are sunk. 

[NewEra]

I’d throw Peterman to the Ravens, Chargers and Vikings so Allen doesn’t die

[ALLEN1QB]

Seriously??? How can anyone say no?? Simple math 1 in 3 vs 1 in 2 . JA will be the starter week 1 period

[Chandler#81]

A day late on this concept IMO, KJ. The way the poll reads, both choices are the same. There’s only 2 QBs now and the Star, extremely expensive Rookie is clearly the 1) Best Guy and has been from get-go and 2) Is as ready as he’d be in week 4 and forward. 

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I think they are mostly one and the same. And I don't think it's possible that Allen is ready to play and Peterman gives them a better chance to win. If he's ready to play he gives them a better chance to win by definition. He can do ten different things that Peterman can't. 

 

I also think that Allen in the game alone has an enormous affect on the run game, similar to how having Tyrod in the game had an affect on the run game. And without it we are sunk. 

I don’t necessarily disagree as it’s playing out that way. The point was if the Bills are comfortable with either guy (or McCarron pre-injury) who would start? They might believe that Allen is at a point where he cannot be ruined but Peterman gives them a better chance to win. It’s kind of like the Savage - Watson situation last year. I’m not saying that’s the case but it’s an interesting discussion IMO. What takes priority, winning now, or developing Allen? Those don’t necessarily have to be different but if they are which way do the Bills go?

[Rochesterfan]

5 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I think they are mostly one and the same. And I don't think it's possible that Allen is ready to play and Peterman gives them a better chance to win. If he's ready to play he gives them a better chance to win by definition. He can do ten different things that Peterman can't. 

 

I also think that Allen in the game alone has an enormous affect on the run game, similar to how having Tyrod in the game had an affect on the run game. And without it we are sunk. 

 

I do think Allen with his talent could give them a better shot at winning, but still not be ready.  I think the Texans were in that same boat last year.  Watson gave them the best chance at winning, but he was really not ready to start.  After the bad first half, the Texans played Watson and he did good things and bad things.  The question is can you live with the mistakes as he grows.

 

I think Allen has shown he gets a bit over excited to start with - he seems to struggle more early with high and off target throws.  I would almost prefer to see if sit a bit and not have to come in right away so he has time to relax and get into the flow.  His talent is just to much to keep on the bench long if they want to win this year.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

A day late on this concept IMO, KJ. The way the poll reads, both choices are the same. There’s only 2 QBs now and the Star, extremely expensive Rookie is clearly the 1) Best Guy and has been from get-go and 2) Is as ready as he’d be in week 4 and forward. 

I don’t disagree that Allen looks like the best of the group already. That isn’t shocking either. They cleared the deck for him. This question may have made more sense 24 hours ago but taking out our biases it still has some merit IMO. If (not saying that they do) the Bills believe that Peterman gives them the best chance to win now, who plays? I still think it’s Allen.

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t necessarily disagree as it’s playing out that way. The point was if the Bills are comfortable with either guy (or McCarron pre-injury) who would start? They might believe that Allen is at a point where he cannot be ruined but Peterman gives them a better chance to win. It’s kind of like the Savage - Watson situation last year. I’m not saying that’s the case but it’s an interesting discussion IMO. What takes priority, winning now, or developing Allen? Those don’t necessarily have to be different but if they are which way do the Bills go?

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. I just think that if McD has another momentary lapse of reason and starts Peterman, it won't last much longer than it did last year when they start seeing CBs jump his weak out passes, see him getting crushed under pressure because the OL can't pass block, and see teams put 8-9 in the box most plays and take Shady out of the game, daring Peterman to beat them consistently with downfield passes. It's going to get ugly quick. 

4 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I do think Allen with his talent could give them a better shot at winning, but still not be ready.  I think the Texans were in that same boat last year.  Watson gave them the best chance at winning, but he was really not ready to start.  After the bad first half, the Texans played Watson and he did good things and bad things.  The question is can you live with the mistakes as he grows.

 

I think Allen has shown he gets a bit over excited to start with - he seems to struggle more early with high and off target throws.  I would almost prefer to see if sit a bit and not have to come in right away so he has time to relax and get into the flow.  His talent is just to much to keep on the bench long if they want to win this year.

He had exactly one of those in each game. By his second throw he settled down. And the Texans were in the same boat last year and made a huge mistake playing Savage, who is awful, instead of Watson, who may not have been completely ready but was better than awful. 

[Bangarang]

The first 4 games are going to be really tough. 

[Rochesterfan]

9 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. I just think that if McD has another momentary lapse of reason and starts Peterman, it won't last much longer than it did last year when they start seeing CBs jump his weak out passes, see him getting crushed under pressure because the OL can't pass block, and see teams put 8-9 in the box most plays and take Shady out of the game, daring Peterman to beat them consistently with downfield passes. It's going to get ugly quick. 

He had exactly one of those in each game. By his second throw he settled down. And the Texans were in the same boat last year and made a huge mistake playing Savage, who is awful, instead of Watson, who may not have been completely ready but was better than awful. 

 

I don’t disagree - I just think if we are being asked if they should start him because he gives him the best chance to win or wait until he is ready - that could be 2 different times.  Much like Watson/Savage - Watson gave them the best chance (seen throughout the pre-season), but he was not really ready to start as seen by some of his mistakes once he started playing.

 

I think getting him in - even if he is not totally ready still gives him the best chance to learn and grow, but you need to accept he is going to make mistakes and maybe cost us a game here or there.

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Rochesterfan said:

 

I don’t disagree - I just think if we are being asked if they should start him because he gives him the best chance to win or wait until he is ready - that could be 2 different times.  Much like Watson/Savage - Watson gave them the best chance (seen throughout the pre-season), but he was not really ready to start as seen by some of his mistakes once he started playing.

 

I think getting him in - even if he is not totally ready still gives him the best chance to learn and grow, but you need to accept he is going to make mistakes and maybe cost us a game here or there.

Totally agree with that. But to me, you cannot start Peterman because you are worried Allen may make mistakes. Peterman is a master craftsman of mistakes. 

[ColoradoBills]

JA played the 1st game with the 3s and 4s and succeeded.

JA played the 2nd game with the 2s and succeeded.

JA has earned the right to start the 3rd game with the 1s.

 

One step at a time.

[Warcodered]

16 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I don’t disagree - I just think if we are being asked if they should start him because he gives him the best chance to win or wait until he is ready - that could be 2 different times.  Much like Watson/Savage - Watson gave them the best chance (seen throughout the pre-season), but he was not really ready to start as seen by some of his mistakes once he started playing.

 

I think getting him in - even if he is not totally ready still gives him the best chance to learn and grow, but you need to accept he is going to make mistakes and maybe cost us a game here or there.

I don't know if there is a way to avoid Allen making rookie mistakes it's just going to happen as he gets used to the next level. 

[SCBills]

People can say he’s not ready but a lot of that is based off the narrative he was an ultra-talented project.  

 

Pretty sure he doesnt look like a project.  Also, pretty sure nobody would be calling him a project if he came from a P-5 school. 

 

He looked great with the 3’s.  He looked great with the 2’s.  He hasn’t given anyone a reason why he wouldn’t look great with the 1s. 

 

For the whole OL will get him killed crowd.  I’m just going to assume that we don’t run basic 1 on 1 blocking schemes when Allen is back there. I think we’ll see a lot of 2 TE/1 back sets to help in protection.   Also helps that he seems to find TE’s at a nice clip to move the chains. 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by SCBills

[chris heff]

If this competition were between Allen and a veteran, even a journeyman, I’d say maybe you let him sit for a while. However Peterman is not much of a veteran and has done nothing. The veteran teaching the rookie can not enter into this decision.

[Mr. WEO]

Well now it's just Allen and Peterman.  That makes it easy...

Edited August 18, 2018 by Mr. WEO

[Jeff1954]

Based on the Browns game, whoever starts the first few games is going to be awfully beat up unless the line improves a lot.

In fact, the chances are both would play anyway through injury by our first home game. Either way, the most important thing the coaches can do is decide on the line and let it develop as much chemistry as possible.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Jeff1954

[chris heff]

8 minutes ago, Jeff1954 said:

Based on the Browns game, whoever starts the first few games is going to be awfully beat up unless the line improves a lot.

In fact, the chances are both would play anyway through injury by our first home game. Either way, the most important thing the coaches can do is decide on the line and let it develop as much chemistry as possible.

By that logic why play Peterman or Allen? If the line is that bad just bring in guys that can take a punch. Or just run the ball every play.

[Success]

Kind of a side topic - but does anyone else get that Kelly/Reich vibe with Allen and Peterman?

[Bring it]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

I’d throw Peterman to the Ravens, Chargers and Vikings so Allen doesn’t die

Not a bad idea.

If Peterman wins, its his position to lose. But I think he will do just that and it will definitely be all in on Allen! That early schedule concerns me with a young Qb. 5 of 7 on the road!! Then the Pats at home! Tough spot to put a rookie!

 

38 minutes ago, chris heff said:

If this competition were between Allen and a veteran, even a journeyman, I’d say maybe you let him sit for a while. However Peterman is not much of a veteran and has done nothing. The veteran teaching the rookie can not enter into this decision.

Can’t argue with that logic.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

44 minutes ago, chris heff said:

If this competition were between Allen and a veteran, even a journeyman, I’d say maybe you let him sit for a while. However Peterman is not much of a veteran and has done nothing. The veteran teaching the rookie can not enter into this decision.

 

Exactly- and peterman if ready should have shredded the guys he played against. 

 

He was nearly picked, missed a bunch of throws, had poor pocket presence and got a lot of help from some WRs and Te, and a  blown coverage  

 

Simply watch Allen’s red zone play highlights and you know all you need to about readiness 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Exactly- and peterman if ready should have shredded the guys he played against. 

 

He was nearly picked, missed a bunch of throws, had poor pocket presence and got a lot of help from some WRs and Te, and a  blown coverage  

 

Simply watch Allen’s red zone play highlights and you know all you need to about readiness 

 

I don’t fully disagree, but Allen also missed a pretty easy blitz that led to his sack, Peterman saw a similar blitz and found the open TE for a touchdown.

 

The TD play was the good you get with Allen, the missed Blitz/sack and the 4th down in game 1 were the bad.  

 

What we we have not seen is how he reacts if teams game plan for Allen specifically.  He has a visible weakness with quick short passes to the RB - especially to the left it seems.  He also looks uncomfortable when under pressure from blitzes.  If teams blitz from the right and force that time and again - how does he deal - we don’t know yet.  

 

That does not mean don’t start him, but Peterman for whatever you want to say has completed 85% (missed 3 for the entire preseason) of his passes in the two weeks and has 2 TDs and has taken only one sack for no loss of yards.  It is not like Peterman has looked inept.  He just is no where near as dynamic as Allen.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Rochesterfan

[Chandler#81]

3 hours ago, Warcodered said:

I don't know if there is a way to avoid Allen making rookie mistakes it's just going to happen as he gets used to the next level. 

 

There never has been ‘a way’. He’s gotta go through it so let’s start ‘the learnin’ now.

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Exactly- and peterman if ready should have shredded the guys he played against. 

 

He was nearly picked, missed a bunch of throws, had poor pocket presence and got a lot of help from some WRs and Te, and a  blown coverage  

 

Simply watch Allen’s red zone play highlights and you know all you need to about readiness 

Vs majority of 2nd stringers.  If Allen was the QB for the first 3 series, we might be talking about something completely different.  While I’m no McCarron fan, our offense as a whole failed.  No one was blocking, missed assignments all over the place.  Couldn’t tell for sure, but KB probably should’ve caught that first deep ball.  Looked like it went right through his hands, although I could be wrong.  If Allen was the QB and our team played exactly the same, he might be a laughing stock right now.  He’s obviously better than these other 2 scrappers but vs legit starting defenses, with our OL and WRs...... we’re about to see how ready he is.  I think we might be reaching by saying he’s ready right now.  Better than 2 bums QBs, definitely.  Ready for the big time?  Still need Tom see him vs a first team defense, not guys hoping to make the team.

[Dadonkadonk]

Posted a few times elsewhere.  If equal Kirby pondered, I play AJ for the first four games.  If Allen is clearly the better QB then you play him week 1.  McD would lose the locker room if he does not play the best guy.  The players know.  But if AJ or even Nate can execute the offense at a higher level even without the arm and size of Allen then they should start.  I don't think 4 games would make much difference either way but erring on the side of sitting Allen and letting him watch for a few games has little downside.

That said, I don't think the competition is as close as we have been lead to believe.  I think Allen is the best by far.  That is why they moved him up to #2 and he will start week 3.

[Kelly the Dog]

46 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Vs majority of 2nd stringers.  If Allen was the QB for the first 3 series, we might be talking about something completely different.  While I’m no McCarron fan, our offense as a whole failed.  No one was blocking, missed assignments all over the place.  Couldn’t tell for sure, but KB probably should’ve caught that first deep ball.  Looked like it went right through his hands, although I could be wrong.  If Allen was the QB and our team played exactly the same, he might be a laughing stock right now.  He’s obviously better than these other 2 scrappers but vs legit starting defenses, with our OL and WRs...... we’re about to see how ready he is.  I think we might be reaching by saying he’s ready right now.  Better than 2 bums QBs, definitely.  Ready for the big time?  Still need Tom see him vs a first team defense, not guys hoping to make the team.

It didn't go through his hands but it was a very good pass. He alligator armed it and should have caught it. He thought he was going to be hit I assume. I like KB and he's one of the keys to our offense this year but that effort was weak. It was an excelllent pass by McCarron though. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Vs majority of 2nd stringers.  If Allen was the QB for the first 3 series, we might be talking about something completely different.  While I’m no McCarron fan, our offense as a whole failed.  No one was blocking, missed assignments all over the place.  Couldn’t tell for sure, but KB probably should’ve caught that first deep ball.  Looked like it went right through his hands, although I could be wrong.  If Allen was the QB and our team played exactly the same, he might be a laughing stock right now.  He’s obviously better than these other 2 scrappers but vs legit starting defenses, with our OL and WRs...... we’re about to see how ready he is.  I think we might be reaching by saying he’s ready right now.  Better than 2 bums QBs, definitely.  Ready for the big time?  Still need Tom see him vs a first team defense, not guys hoping to make the team.

 

He is ready to play. He’s going to make mistakes. But he’s going to learn and improve, not collapse into a shell. 

 

He can do it. Stop worrying. This kid is different and it’s a good thing I wasn’t drafting for the bills, I would have missed the mark. 

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

He is ready to play. He’s going to make mistakes. But he’s going to learn and improve, not collapse into a shell. 

 

He can do it. Stop worrying. This kid is different and it’s a good thing I wasn’t drafting for the bills, I would have missed the mark. 

He looks like it playing vs 2nd and 3rd stringers for 2 games.  To think he is a sure thing at this point is a bit of a stretch imo.  I’m EXTREMELY happy with his play,  love what I’ve seen.  Can’t wait to see him lead our team.  Still not sold that he’s a sure thing,  not sure how anyone can be.  Looks the part so far,

[Kelly the Dog]

31 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He looks like it playing vs 2nd and 3rd stringers for 2 games.  To think he is a sure thing at this point is a bit of a stretch imo.  I’m EXTREMELY happy with his play,  love what I’ve seen.  Can’t wait to see him lead our team.  Still not sold that he’s a sure thing,  not sure how anyone can be.  Looks the part so far,

Very true. 

 

However, many guys fail because they lack the talent, the smarts, the attitude, and mental toughness, the physical toughness, and the coaching. He seems to have all of the first five of those. We don't know about the coaching yet, although Daboll seems good so far, and we don't know and won't know if he can process defenses fast and efficient enough under fire for sometime. He has a lot going for him though, especially the pure talent and attitude. 

[BullBuchanan]

8 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Totally agree with that. But to me, you cannot start Peterman because you are worried Allen may make mistakes. Peterman is a master craftsman of mistakes. 

Not in college or on any game besides 1 he played. He played well in the snow bowl and every preseason game this year and last.

 

San Diego probably has 2 Superbowl wins by now if they didn't get enamored with a big strong QB over a smaller guy with less of an arm that just figured out how to move the chains.

Edited August 19, 2018 by BullBuchanan

[Kirby Jackson]

8 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Not in college or on any game besides 1 he played. He played well in the snow bowl and every preseason game this year and last.

 

San Diego probably has 2 Superbowl wins by now if they didn't get enamored with a big strong QB over a smaller guy with less of an arm that just figured out how to move the chains.

You sound like you think the Bills are making a decision between the 2. They aren’t. They made the decision as to who their guy is going to be. It’s 100%, without question, Allen. It may not be week 1 (but it may be) and it will be for a couple of years at least. 

 

The question is “does Peterman’s play matter at all to Allen’s timeline?” I don’t think that it does personally. The only thing impacting when Allen plays is Allen.

[BullBuchanan]

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You sound like you think the Bills are making a decision between the 2. They aren’t. They made the decision as to who their guy is going to be. It’s 100%, without question, Allen. It may not be week 1 (but it may be) and it will be for a couple of years at least. 

 

The question is “does Peterman’s play matter at all to Allen’s timeline?” I don’t think that it does personally. The only thing impacting when Allen plays is Allen.

If I'm taking McDermott at his word that the best player plays, then yes, I do. If Peterman wins the job and plays great, I expect him to keep his job until someone else earns it.

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

If I'm taking McDermott at his word that the best player plays, then yes, I do. If Peterman wins the job and plays great, I expect him to keep his job until someone else earns it.

That’s pretty naive to think that. There hasn’t been a QB EVER picked in the first 10 picks that wasn’t given the job. The Bills used a 1st and 2 seconds in him. They didn’t do that with the intention of a competition. Peterman even knows that. The Bills traded away a functioning NFL QB, didn’t sign someone like McCown or Teddy. They cleared the deck. That was because they wanted Allen to have it open.

[Scott7975]

I think he starts now and is ready to start now.  I think people's opinion about throwing a QB into the fire ruins them is wrong.  Plenty of QBs succeed starting right away.

[BullBuchanan]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s pretty naive to think that. There hasn’t been a QB EVER picked in the first 10 picks that wasn’t given the job. The Bills used a 1st and 2 seconds in him. They didn’t do that with the intention of a competition. Peterman even knows that. The Bills traded away a functioning NFL QB, didn’t sign someone like McCown or Teddy. They cleared the deck. That was because they wanted Allen to have it open.

 

I'm just taking the man at what he said. If he doesn't follow through on that I don't know how he keeps credibility with the locker room and the fans. They didn't really clear the deck, they paid 12 million guaranteed over 2 years to McCarron. That's a lot for a guy you know if going to be your backup, and they started Peterman last year, so they were willing to give him a shot.

I'm trying to not create a ridiculous scenario here, but I'm pretty sure if San Diego could do it all over again, they'd trade Rivers instead.

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

I'm just taking the man at what he said. If he doesn't follow through on that I don't know how he keeps credibility with the locker room and the fans. They didn't really clear the deck, they paid 12 million guaranteed over 2 years to McCarron. That's a lot for a guy you know if going to be your backup, and they started Peterman last year, so they were willing to give him a shot.

I'm trying to not create a ridiculous scenario here, but I'm pretty sure if San Diego could do it all over again, they'd trade Rivers instead.

Ten million. Less than eight guaranteed. 

 

That is very low end backup. 

[Kirby Jackson]

12 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

I'm just taking the man at what he said. If he doesn't follow through on that I don't know how he keeps credibility with the locker room and the fans. They didn't really clear the deck, they paid 12 million guaranteed over 2 years to McCarron. That's a lot for a guy you know if going to be your backup, and they started Peterman last year, so they were willing to give him a shot.

I'm trying to not create a ridiculous scenario here, but I'm pretty sure if San Diego could do it all over again, they'd trade Rivers instead.

A couple of things:

1) They didn’t guarantee McCarron $12M. They gave him $7.9M in total guarantees with an out after year 1. 

2) The entire locker room and fan base knows the deal. McDermott isn’t losing any credibility by playing the 7th overall pick.

 

I’m actually shocked that everyone doesn’t see that as an inevitability. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Kirby Jackson

[formerlyofCtown]

On 8/18/2018 at 4:13 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t disagree that Allen looks like the best of the group already. That isn’t shocking either. They cleared the deck for him. This question may have made more sense 24 hours ago but taking out our biases it still has some merit IMO. If (not saying that they do) the Bills believe that Peterman gives them the best chance to win now, who plays? I still think it’s Allen.

McDermott has made it clear as has Beane whatever players they feel give the team the best chance to win will be the ones that play period.

On 8/18/2018 at 4:34 PM, Kelly the Dog said:

Totally agree with that. But to me, you cannot start Peterman because you are worried Allen may make mistakes. Peterman is a master craftsman of mistakes. 

One game dude.  In his rookie season.

On 8/18/2018 at 4:57 PM, SCBills said:

People can say he’s not ready but a lot of that is based off the narrative he was an ultra-talented project.  

 

Pretty sure he doesnt look like a project.  Also, pretty sure nobody would be calling him a project if he came from a P-5 school. 

 

He looked great with the 3’s.  He looked great with the 2’s.  He hasn’t given anyone a reason why he wouldn’t look great with the 1s. 

 

For the whole OL will get him killed crowd.  I’m just going to assume that we don’t run basic 1 on 1 blocking schemes when Allen is back there. I think we’ll see a lot of 2 TE/1 back sets to help in protection.   Also helps that he seems to find TE’s at a nice clip to move the chains. 

 

 

He looked great playing against there 2s with our ones.  Slow down people.  I want to see him play great with our 1s against their 1s.  Although I am hopeful he could beat their 1s with our 2s and that may very well be what the future holds.  Slow down though you have JA fever.