Which weighed more heavily on 4/26/2018: WANTING Allen or NOT Wanting Rosen?

[transplantbillsfan]

Brandon Beane actually recounts all of this in terms of the trades and attempted trades almost two weeks ago now to trade up from 12 to get a QB.  It's in an article by the Buffalo News, but is, unfortunately, behind a paywall.  But even before that article, reports were wide-ranging now that the Bills had a deal in place to trade up to #5 with the Broncos.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/heres-the-draft-day-trade-the-bills-and-broncos-had-in-place-before-bradley-chubb-fell/

 

And we all know they eventually traded up to #7 with the Bucs (a deal that apparently nearly didn't happen after Beane made an offer and the Bucs GM passed, but then he called Beane back just as they were getting on the clock), but Peter King reports this week in his MMQB that Buffalo legitimately was trying to trade with the Colts, too.

 

http://amp.si.com/nfl/2018/05/07/peter-king-sports-illustrated-nbc-mmqb?__twitter_impression=true

• The Bills moved from 12 to seven in the first round to get Josh Allen, and they tried to move from 12 to 6. The Colts, at six, did a great job disguising their intentions, because the league thought GM Chris Ballard wanted Roquan Smith there. But the Colts’ research showed their quarterbacks being hit more than any other quarterbacks in football since 2012. So sure-fire guard starter Quenton Nelson had been locked in for a while at six, and Ballard got the last prospective early interior-line starter on their board at 37, Auburn guard Braden Smith. Interesting that in his pre-draft press conference Ballard said the offensive and defensive lines are how they’ll build this team, and in the first two rounds, he took two guards and two defensive ends. Maybe those useless press conferences are worth something after all. Anyway, when the Bills called Ballard, he didn’t have much interest, because he wanted Nelson so bad as a shield for beaten Andrew Luck.

 

 

So, Beane was, by his own account, ready to move up to #5 for sure and even had that deal in place before the draft, pending whether the Broncos guy (Chubb) was available or not.  Clearly Beane was also trying to get higher, but wasn't willing to give up any future picks, which I'm guessing is what Dorsey at #4 and Gettleman at #2 was asking for.

 

Based on some of his cryptic responses in that Buffalo News article in response to the question of where Allen was on his board, I think it's pretty clear that Darnold was #1 and Allen was #2.

 

But my question is: how much of a drop from Allen to Rosen was there?

 

Of course, this is just an educated guess, but I'd say if it went #1- Darnold and #2- Allen... do you think Rosen was even ranked #3 on the Bills board or do you think he was completely off the Bills board, whether for durability or personality concerns?

 

 

Whether Rosen was completely off Buffalo's board or not, I don't know.  But if Allen and Rosen were ranked even closely together, I don't think the mad scramble to get to #5, then #6, then #7 would have happened... and Benjamin Allbright also reported early this week that Arizona had been trying to get to #5 for Allen.

https://twitter.com/AllbrightNFL/status/992792690600407040

There was no deal in place pre draft between Denver and Arizona. Arizona had called to inquire, but Denver had a deal in place with Buffalo (as we reported prior to the draft). Denver backed out of that deal to select Bradley Chubb.

Both Buffalo and AZ were after Josh Allen at 5

 

 

 

So, knowing the price we paid and would have also been willing to pay going up to #5 and the picks we could have saved if the difference between Allen and Rosen were negligible, do you think our trade up to draft Allen is more a sign of how much Buffalo likes Allen or how much Buffalo didn't like Rosen?

[Seanbillsfan2206]

In before the merge...

[Alphadawg7]

There is another thread already from GunnerBill where he has some source that said both Baker and Rosen were completely off the Bills board.  

 

Not sure I see correlation with your thread title and the actual body of your post.  But going back to the thread title, its 100% crystal clear to me Allen was their target and the guy they coveted.  I will assume Darnold was on there too, and even Gunners source said they were the top 2 guys on their board.  But there is no clarification if Darnold or Allen was the top guy.  

 

If Allen was #1 on their board, I think Beane would have said as much.  To get the guy who they ranked as the best QB in the draft at #7 I think would be part of his excitement in talking about getting him.  So the fact they haven't said that to me suggests it probably went Darnold and Allen.  No value in talking about that, and  no reason to since Darnold was never obtainable as neither Cle or NYG were interested in really moving off 1 or 2, and Bills certainly didnt value Darnold enough over Allen to pay enough to try and sway their minds.  

 

But for me, there is absolutely no doubt that Allen was their top target entering the draft and they did everything they could to make sure they could get him...which they did, and somehow did it without having to part with both first round picks allowing they to land the LB they coveted too.  

 

Beane is a wizard.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[Rochesterfan]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

There is another thread already from GunnerBill where he has some source that said both Baker and Rosen were completely off the Bills board.  

 

Not sure I see correlation with your thread title and the actual body of your post.  But going back to the thread title, its 100% crystal clear to me Allen was their target and the guy they coveted.  I will assume Darnold was on there too, and even Gunners source said they were the top 2 guys on their board.  But there is no clarification if Darnold or Allen was the top guy.  

 

If Allen was #1 on their board, I think Beane would have said as much.  To get the guy who they ranked as the best QB in the draft at #7 I think would be part of his excitement in talking about getting him.  So the fact they haven't said that to me suggests it probably went Darnold and Allen.  No value in talking about that, and  no reason to since Darnold was never obtainable as neither Cle or NYG were interested in really moving off 1 or 2, and Bills certainly didnt value Darnold enough over Allen to pay enough to try and sway their minds.  

 

But for me, there is absolutely no doubt that Allen was their top target entering the draft and they did everything they could to make sure they could get him...which they did, and somehow did it without having to part with both first round picks allowing they to land the LB they coveted too.  

 

Beane is a wizard.

 

Agreed - I think that Allen and Darnold were at the top and I think Gunner’s thread covers it pretty well.  

 

To me if if they had lost out on Allen or if Allen and Darnold had gone #1 & #3 - I think Beane’s Comments about Rudolph perhaps at 22 tells you how they thought of Rosen.  I would never rule out them taking him, but my guess is if they missed Darnold and Allen - you are looking at LB at 12 and we will see who falls to 22 for QB.  If multiple are still there it may move to the 2nd round with other players being chosen at 22.

 

I think they had a wide gap between the top 2 guys and picks 3-5 at the QB position.

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

37 minutes ago, Seanbillsfan2206 said:

In before the merge...

 

Searched through the first 3 pages... didn't see a thread this would be merged with.  So sorry for the trouble.

[mjt328]

Based on everything we know, I don't think Josh Rosen was on our board at all - or he was significantly lower than Josh Allen.

 

I always got the impression the Bills were disappointed in the Jets/Colts trade and were targeting that spot.  They were also making attempts to trade up, even as high as #2 to make sure they got the right guy.  I just can't see them pushing so hard to make a deal with Denver if there were two guys left they were comfortable with.  After Sam Darnold was taken, it's pretty clear that Beane was starting to get desperate.  That's because he only had ONE GUY left at the top of his board.

 

The Bills front office places an extremely high premium on character.  And for some reason, lots of teams (not just a few) had problems with Rosen.  Maybe we won't know the specifics for a few years, but GMs and coaches just didn't want him on their team.

[transplantbillsfan]

37 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

There is another thread already from GunnerBill where he has some source that said both Baker and Rosen were completely off the Bills board.  

 

Not sure I see correlation with your thread title and the actual body of your post.  But going back to the thread title, its 100% crystal clear to me Allen was their target and the guy they coveted.  I will assume Darnold was on there too, and even Gunners source said they were the top 2 guys on their board.  But there is no clarification if Darnold or Allen was the top guy.  

 

If Allen was #1 on their board, I think Beane would have said as much.  To get the guy who they ranked as the best QB in the draft at #7 I think would be part of his excitement in talking about getting him.  So the fact they haven't said that to me suggests it probably went Darnold and Allen.  No value in talking about that, and  no reason to since Darnold was never obtainable as neither Cle or NYG were interested in really moving off 1 or 2, and Bills certainly didnt value Darnold enough over Allen to pay enough to try and sway their minds.  

 

But for me, there is absolutely no doubt that Allen was their top target entering the draft and they did everything they could to make sure they could get him...which they did, and somehow did it without having to part with both first round picks allowing they to land the LB they coveted too.  

 

Beane is a wizard.

 

Okay I vaguely remember Gunner's post.  I was mainly thinking about this as I read Peter King's MMQB today and saw the Bills were trying to trade up with the Colts. If Rosen was legitimately off Buffalo's board, then I think the persistence of trading up while Arizona was reportedly also trying to do that for the same QB is pretty telling... I also think Arizona's changing narrative of now suddenly claiming they liked Rosen more than Allen is entertaining.
https://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2018/5/8/17329316/the-arizona-cardinals-were-never-in-on-josh-allen-because-of-the-price

 

[K-9]

Far more want than not want. 

[Alphadawg7]

38 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Agreed - I think that Allen and Darnold were at the top and I think Gunner’s thread covers it pretty well.  

 

To me if if they had lost out on Allen or if Allen and Darnold had gone #1 & #3 - I think Beane’s Comments about Rudolph perhaps at 22 tells you how they thought of Rosen.  I would never rule out them taking him, but my guess is if they missed Darnold and Allen - you are looking at LB at 12 and we will see who falls to 22 for QB.  If multiple are still there it may move to the 2nd round with other players being chosen at 22.

 

I think they had a wide gap between the top 2 guys and picks 3-5 at the QB position.

 

 

 

Yeah totally agree...I think the plan was Allen, if not Allen then they 100% draft Edmunds at 12 then Mason at 22

[mead107]

Seriously???????

been talked about many days now.  

[transplantbillsfan]

38 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Agreed - I think that Allen and Darnold were at the top and I think Gunner’s thread covers it pretty well.  

 

To me if if they had lost out on Allen or if Allen and Darnold had gone #1 & #3 - I think Beane’s Comments about Rudolph perhaps at 22 tells you how they thought of Rosen.  I would never rule out them taking him, but my guess is if they missed Darnold and Allen - you are looking at LB at 12 and we will see who falls to 22 for QB.  If multiple are still there it may move to the 2nd round with other players being chosen at 22.

 

I think they had a wide gap between the top 2 guys and picks 3-5 at the QB position.

 

 

 

Where did Beane say something about Rudolph at 22?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

59 minutes ago, Seanbillsfan2206 said:

In before the merge...

 

[transplantbillsfan]

8 minutes ago, mead107 said:

Seriously???????

been talked about many days now.  

 

Welp... I'm sorry... I'm not in here all moments of the day.  Actually, I haven't had the chance to be in here talking Bills football as much as I used to for months now.

 

I followed protocol.  I literally scrolled down to the bottom and looked at the thread titles of the first 3 pages and didn't see the topic.  If it's been talked about for many days now, that thread wasn't in the first 3 pages after I read the MMQB and thought about posting it.

[BuffaloBillyG]

51 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Agreed - I think that Allen and Darnold were at the top and I think Gunner’s thread covers it pretty well.  

 

To me if if they had lost out on Allen or if Allen and Darnold had gone #1 & #3 - I think Beane’s Comments about Rudolph perhaps at 22 tells you how they thought of Rosen.  I would never rule out them taking him, but my guess is if they missed Darnold and Allen - you are looking at LB at 12 and we will see who falls to 22 for QB.  If multiple are still there it may move to the 2nd round with other players being chosen at 22.

 

I think they had a wide gap between the top 2 guys and picks 3-5 at the QB position.

 

 

Seeing the way the draft actually played out I think its obvious we would have pounced on Edmunds at 12. Then Rudolph at 22 would have been my bet.  I don't think Rosen was even a fallback option in hindsight.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

I think Allen was their guy all along.  Getting him at 7 was a huge win for Beane and boys.

[jr1]

it seemed like Terry wanted Allen 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

There is another thread already from GunnerBill where he has some source that said both Baker and Rosen were completely off the Bills board.  

 

I actually think that might be true, and if it is true that they were both off the board, the reason might be concussions.

 

Everyone who follows football heard about Rosen's concussions.  Although less publicized, Baker Mayfield also had 2 concussions (last year, within the space of 3 games).

 

At one point fairly close to the draft, Beane said something to the effect that one team won't be bothered by a medical exam that takes a player off another team's board.  I thought that was a strange comment to make in the context in which it was made.  But if it was the Bills moving Mayfield and Rosen off their board for concussions it would make sense.

I can't find the comment right now.  I'll come back and link it if I find it.

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

Just now, Johnny Hammersticks said:

I think Allen was their guy all along.  Getting him at 7 was a huge win for Beane and boys.

 

Well... I think they preferred Darnold, but yeah, I think Allen was #2.

 

But in a draft where 4 QBs went in the top 10 and were considered by many to be legitimate top 10 prospects, it's interesting that Beane, who was on record time and time again saying how much he valued his draft picks, still chose to give up those valuable assets to get one of them when 2 of them were still on the board and he could have given up less... or possibly none at all.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Welp... I'm sorry... I'm not in here all moments of the day.  Actually, I haven't had the chance to be in here talking Bills football as much as I used to for months now.

 

I followed protocol.  I literally scrolled down to the bottom and looked at the thread titles of the first 3 pages and didn't see the topic.  If it's been talked about for many days now, that thread wasn't in the first 3 pages after I read the MMQB and thought about posting it.

 

You're good.  It could easily be added to the Draft Pick #7 Thread but when a thread reaches 80+ pages, even Search Ninjas have trouble navigating it.

 

[White Linen]

It was mostly about not wanting Rosen.  They just didn't want Allen a little less. 

 

C'mon now.

Edited May 9, 2018 by White Linen

[DFT]

Allen was the guy.  Everything else is just hopeless speculation.  Rosen will forever be the one that got away...  (or will he?)

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

TLDR.

 

Neither.   It doesn’t matter now as the Bills signed Allen.  

[quinnearlysghost88]

Anybody read the joe b write-up on Allen? It’s given me some hope for the future. Lot of potential. Some work needs to be done as well. 

[Rochesterfan]

46 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Where did Beane say something about Rudolph at 22?

 

 

Yolo had a thread based on a story from Around the NFL about how the Bills would have strongly considered Rudolph at 22 - I believe - that may have even been the title, but I would need to search.  

 

I can’t remember if they quoted or just sources attributed to Beane about Rudolph at 22, but it basically exploded people’s heads because of where he eventually went, but I believe there were links to other teams like Pittsburgh that had a 1st round grade, but finally value outmatched need and they took him later.

 

The idea came out after Gunners thread and basically confirmed the that Allen and Rudolph were 2 of their top guys and speculation is that Darold was #3.  All three are bigger pocket based passers - exactly what Beane talked about for a franchise QB.

[gjv001]

My guess is Allen and Darnold were the top two QB's on the Bills board, and Allen was the Bills Top Rated QB. 

[transplantbillsfan]

57 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I actually think that might be true, and if it is true that they were both off the board, the reason might be concussions.

 

Everyone who follows football heard about Rosen's concussions.  Although less publicized, Baker Mayfield also had 2 concussions (last year, within the space of 3 games).

 

At one point fairly close to the draft, Beane said something to the effect that one team won't be bothered by a medical exam that takes a player off another team's board.  I thought that was a strange comment to make in the context in which it was made.  But if it was the Bills moving Mayfield and Rosen off their board for concussions it would make sense.

I can't find the comment right now.  I'll come back and link it if I find it.

 

 

 

I didn't even know about Mayfield's concusssions.  Interesting.  Maybe with injury issues he saw in Carolina with Cam and briefly in Buffalo with Taylor have really taken guys with injury histories off his board for good reason.

41 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

TLDR.

 

Neither.   It doesn’t matter now as the Bills signed Allen.  

 

Had to look up "TLDR" again...

 

Is there a reason you posted in this thread if you didn't bother reading?

 

Just have to keep crankin those posts out, huh?

 

Yes, I realize reading a lot would take away from all that quality posting you do.

 

Same amount of time on this board as me and nearly 10,000 more posts... you're doing such a splendid job 

[transplantbillsfan]

56 minutes ago, White Linen said:

It was mostly about not wanting Rosen.  They just didn't want Allen a little less. 

 

C'mon now.

 

Well... if Rosen was truly off Beane's board, it certainly seems that his persistence in trading up to #7 and trying to trade up to #6 and #5 was obviously in order to get Allen, but also not to be stuck with the possibility of Rosen or Rudolph even lower.

 

Good God, imagine if we ended up stuck with Rudolph at 22.... Oy!

[Success]

I think these kinds of discussions are fascinating.  Whatever truth there is behind how things played out has such an impact on how the next decade or so goes for us as fans.

 

I personally feel that they just loved Allen.  They probably had Darnold higher, but I doubt it was much of a gap, and once the Jets made their trade it was going to be Allen, or no trade and take Jackson or someone else later on.

 

The more I see of Rosen, the gladder I am.  Hard guy to root for, and he has an intangible that really works against him.  He feels like he’s the best already.

[Domdab99]

Man, I hate threads that are pure conjecture

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I didn't even know about Mayfield's concusssions.  Interesting.  Maybe with injury issues he saw in Carolina with Cam and briefly in Buffalo with Taylor have really taken guys with injury histories off his board for good reason.

 

Had to look up "TLDR" again...

 

Is there a reason you posted in this thread if you didn't bother reading?

 

Just have to keep crankin those posts out, huh?

 

Yes, I realize reading a lot would take away from all that quality posting you do.

 

Same amount of time on this board as me and nearly 10,000 more posts... you're doing such a splendid job 

The title is self evident.  

 

I dont need to read hundreds of words to supply a simple answer 

[transplantbillsfan]

38 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

The title is self evident.  

 

I dont need to read hundreds of words to supply a simple answer 

 

Or, better yet, if you don't need to read hundreds of words, why supply an answer at all?

[Jay_Fixit]

2 hours ago, DFT said:

Allen was the guy.  Everything else is just hopeless speculation.  Rosen will forever be the one that got away...  (or will he?)

No, he won’t.

[#34fan]

Beane's own ego factored more in the Allen pick than anything else.

 

The biggest kid with the strongest arm who generated the most hype was the only thing that could do it for him.

 

[Doc Brown]

The mood now compared to a little less than two weeks ago is certainly more optimistic.  Here's the five stages of grief I went through:

 

1.)  Denial - the draft played out perfectly and they had Josh Rosen sitting there and they picked a kid who looks like the most obvious bust since Jake Locker.  Did Goodell read the wrong last name?  Is this some sort of cruel practical joke.  

2.)  Anger - Beane deserves to be fired.  All these months of my personal time in quarterback study getting excited about Mayfield, Darnold, or Rosen and then we fricken draft ALLEN!!!!  Get the pitch forks.

3.)  Bargaining - a lot of people on this board feel my pain.  Maybe they'll provide a link to an expert me feel better about the pick.  Arizona was reportedly heartbroken which is nice.

4.)  Depression - same old Bills.  This kid will be a bust and set this franchise back five years.  Mine as well look up the 2019 rookie QB class.

5.)  Acceptance - he had a bad team around him.  He played in a pro style offense where there were few short, easy throws and that brought down his completion percentage.  He worked on a farm.  Maybe Beane knows more than us and this kid could be great.  Screw Josh Rosen.  

Edited May 10, 2018 by Doc Brown

[Cripple Creek]

24 minutes ago, #34fan said:

Beane's own ego factored more in the Allen pick than anything else.

 

The biggest kid with the strongest arm who generated the most hype was the only thing that could do it for him.

 

Wrong, though the egos of more than a few here do seem to be getting into their own way.

[Aussie Joe]

26 minutes ago, #34fan said:

Beane's own ego factored more in the Allen pick than anything else.

 

The biggest kid with the strongest arm who generated the most hype was the only thing that could do it for him.

 

 

Or he had a choice between Allen & Rosen and he picked Allen..

[#34fan]

 

8 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

 

Or he had a choice between Allen & Rosen and he picked Allen..

 

It was never going to be Rosen... Too incendiary... Someone shoves a camera in Rosen's face, and he says exactly what's on his mind...

 

-Then there's the durability issue.

 

 

 

[Codyny13]

I never understand the hindsight posts. It’s over, they got the guy they wanted. Moving rt along now.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I didn't even know about Mayfield's concusssions.  Interesting.  Maybe with injury issues he saw in Carolina with Cam and briefly in Buffalo with Taylor have really taken guys with injury histories off his board for good reason.

 

Alternatively, after Kolb was cleared by the Bills team physicians, but had 1 more concussion end his career and cause persistent symptoms, the Bills team physicians may scrutinize a concussion history more seriously.

 

Again, I don't know that's the reason, but it would puzzle me that the Bills would take both of those guys off the board (if that's true) otherwise, they're such different players.

So I was thinking "what do they have in common, besides the best analytics in the QB class?"

1 hour ago, #34fan said:

Beane's own ego factored more in the Allen pick than anything else.

The biggest kid with the strongest arm who generated the most hype was the only thing that could do it for him.

 

It's been reported that Beane has been watching Allen since last year and was hoping he would "slide under the radar"

 

I truly doubt that hype was a factor.  For whatever reason, as a football guy, Beane just prefers Allen.

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

The mood now compared to a little less than two weeks ago is certainly more optimistic.  Here's the five stages of grief I went through:

 

1.)  Denial - the draft played out perfectly and they had Josh Rosen sitting there and they picked a kid who looks like the most obvious bust since Jake Locker.  Did Goodell read the wrong last name?  Is this some sort of cruel practical joke.  

2.)  Anger - Beane deserves to be fired.  All these months of my personal time in quarterback study getting excited about Mayfield, Darnold, or Rosen and then we fricken draft ALLEN!!!!  Get the pitch forks.

3.)  Bargaining - a lot of people on this board feel my pain.  Maybe they'll provide a link to an expert me feel better about the pick.  Arizona was reportedly heartbroken which is nice.

4.)  Depression - same old Bills.  This kid will be a bust and set this franchise back five years.  Mine as well look up the 2019 rookie QB class.

5.)  Acceptance - he had a bad team around him.  He played in a pro style offense where there were few short, easy throws and that brought down his completion percentage.  He worked on a farm.  Maybe Beane knows more than us and this kid could be great.  Screw Josh Rosen.  

 

Nailed it.  Bam.

[Bing Bong]

Strange question for me to grasp personally. I guess call me a Rosen guy but I really didn't think anybody was a sure thing except for Baker. So I'm not mad we chose allen over Rosen, just saying I'd have picked Rosen.