Was Kelly getting picked ahead of Marino a issue in 1983?

[ganesh]

This might be for the old timers who kept track of drafts (I did only after 1990)...

 

We had four QBs go in the 83 draft with Kelly taken ahead of Marino.  Considering the college resume of Miami. was there hair splitting in Buffalo at picking the wrong QB from Pennsylvania?  In the end it did not matter as both Kelly and Marino had stellar careers where they took their teams to SuperBowls (albeit never won one) and enshrined themselves in the HOF.  

 

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by ganesh

[Seanbillsfan2206]

It was the 83 draft. Marino had some character issues which is why he slid to the end of the 1st rd. And it was actually 6 QBs taken in the first rd

Edited April 29, 2018 by Seanbillsfan2206

[2003Contenders]

Guess you mean the 1983 draft, rather than the 1986 draft...

 

Marino fell in that draft because allegations had been leaked to the press (reputedly by Miami) that he had a drug problem. The team that was most famously duped was the Pittsburgh Steelers, the team that was originally planning on drafting the local kid.

[klos63]

22 minutes ago, ganesh said:

This might be for the old timers who kept track of drafts (I did only after 1990)...

 

We had four QBs go in the 86 draft with Kelly taken ahead of Marino.  Considering the college resume of Miami. was there hair splitting in Buffalo at picking the wrong QB from Pennsylvania?  In the end it did not matter as both Kelly and Marino had stellar careers where they took their teams to SuperBowls (albeit never won one) and enshrined themselves in the HOF.  

 

 

Actually it was 6 Qb's in the 1983 draft. Marino's stock dropped a lot and Kelly was coming off shoulder surgery, so i don't recall much controversy about the picks. Elway was the focus of that draft.

[purple haze]

1 hour ago, 2003Contenders said:

Guess you mean the 1983 draft, rather than the 1986 draft...

 

Marino fell in that draft because allegations had been leaked to the press (reputedly by Miami) that he had a drug problem. The team that was most famously duped was the Pittsburgh Steelers, the team that was originally planning on drafting the local kid.

The Rooney's wanted Marino.  Chuck Noll put the breaks on that.

[Ol Dirty B]

It could just be from the 30 for 30 and other short various coverage I've seen of that draft, but it seemed like it was the Jets fans who were most pissed off about taking Ken O'Brien over Marino.

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

This might be for the old timers who kept track of drafts (I did only after 1990)...

 

We had four QBs go in the 86 draft with Kelly taken ahead of Marino.  Considering the college resume of Miami. was there hair splitting in Buffalo at picking the wrong QB from Pennsylvania?  In the end it did not matter as both Kelly and Marino had stellar careers where they took their teams to SuperBowls (albeit never won one) and enshrined themselves in the HOF.  

2

2

Jim Kelly had a severe shoulder separation in his senior year at Miami and that cut his season short. The injury was so bad he needed pins inserted to keep to together and afterward the doctors told him he might never fully recover a full throwing motion. 

 

Otherwise, I think Kelly is fighting Elway for that number one overall spot if not in the top five. John Elway, Eric Dickerson, Curt Warner, Chris Hinton. were the top four.

 

On a different note in the 1988 draft, Don't forget that Thurman Thomas suffered an ACL tear and players had a very difficult time recovering from that back then. Plus, he had a lot of mileage on him at OSU with 897 rushes for 5,146 yards, 43 TDs and 21 100 yard rushing games. He also kept Barry Sanders on the bench after returning from his injury.

 

Anyway, Thurman was thought to be a top 10 pick in the draft and all those miles and that knee injury scared teams away so he slipped into the second round, 40th overall. I can recall the ESPN cameras at his house watching him get passed by team after team. Also, Thurman once stated that he played on two bad ankles his entire professional career.

 

I bring it up because the Bills owner seemed to spare no expense on some really great team doctors back then. Rusty Jones was the teams S&C coach and Marv called him his "secret weapon" as the team would go to play Miami in 90-degree weather and the Dolphin players would be gassed hands on the hips and the Bills players were in much better condition.

 

 

 

As far as Dan Marino is concerned it wasn't rumored he had a "drug problem". It was more that he was a party animal and it was rumored he smoked some weed. Probably from a team that wanted his stock to drop. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Nihilarian

[Buffalo Barbarian]

The non HOF QBs in this class were solid as well if I remember right.

 

 

[CA OC Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

The non HOF QBs in this class were solid as well if I remember right.

 

 

 

Not sure if I'd agree with this (assuming you mean solid in the NFL). Todd Blackledge (taken #7 by KC) was never KC's full time starter. Tony Eason (#15 by NE) played 8 seasons, was the starter for 3 seasons and was not very good. Ken O'Brien (#24 to NJ Jets) played 10 seasons, was the starter for 7 of them, and the Jets had a 50-59-1 record with him starting.

 

A couple of footnotes: Bruce Mathison was drafted by the Rams in the 10th round. In 1985 he played for the Bills, started 7 games and went 1-6. Also, Gary Kubiak was drafted by Denver in round 8 and of course was Elway's backup for most of his career before becoming a coach.

[Skins Malone]

For those who were old enough to remember...what was the reaction when Kelly initially wouldnt come here?  Did you believe it was just a matter of time before he came here or he was never going too?

5 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Jim Kelly had a severe shoulder separation in his senior year at Miami and that cut his season short. The injury was so bad he needed pins inserted to keep to together and afterward the doctors told him he might never fully recover a full throwing motion. 

 

Otherwise, I think Kelly is fighting Elway for that number one overall spot if not in the top five. John Elway, Eric Dickerson, Curt Warner, Chris Hinton. were the top four.

 

On a different note in the 1988 draft, Don't forget that Thurman Thomas suffered an ACL tear and players had a very difficult time recovering from that back then. Plus, he had a lot of mileage on him at OSU with 897 rushes for 5,146 yards, 43 TDs and 21 100 yard rushing games. He also kept Barry Sanders on the bench after returning from his injury.

 

Anyway, Thurman was thought to be a top 10 pick in the draft and all those miles and that knee injury scared teams away so he slipped into the second round, 40th overall. I can recall the ESPN cameras at his house watching him get passed by team after team. Also, Thurman once stated that he played on two bad ankles his entire professional career.

 

I bring it up because the Bills owner seemed to spare no expense on some really great team doctors back then. Rusty Jones was the teams S&C coach and Marv called him his "secret weapon" as the team would go to play Miami in 90-degree weather and the Dolphin players would be gassed hands on the hips and the Bills players were in much better condition.

 

 

 

As far as Dan Marino is concerned it wasn't rumored he had a "drug problem". It was more that he was a party animal and it was rumored he smoked some weed. Probably from a team that wanted his stock to drop. 

No im pretty sure the rumor was cocaine.  

[Nihilarian]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:30 AM, Skins Malone said:

For those who were old enough to remember...what was the reaction when Kelly initially wouldnt come here?  Did you believe it was just a matter of time before he came here or he was never going too?

No im pretty sure the rumor was cocaine.  

2

Also, the drug rumors originally suggested that Marino was a partier, not a serious drug abuser.

"It started off with just the idea that he was partying," Didinger recalled. "Then it grew more sinister from that."

"People absolutely looked at it that there was a group of guys on the Panthers that just had too good a time," Demoff said. "It was never about addiction."

The Marino drug rumor was so prevalent at the end of the 1982 college season that Pitt actually tested Marino for drugs. Demoff knew about the test.

"[Marino] told me that the school had heard about a group of players using marijuana or drugs, and they internally tested all the players. They were all clean," Demoff said.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2519683-nfl-urban-legends-dan-marino-drug-rumors-and-the-draft-day-slide

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

Marino also had a lesser senior season than junior year. That was as big a reason for his drop as the drug rumors. The Bills had Kelly and Marino rated just about equal. That's the reason they took Tony Hunter two picks ahead, because they didn't care which one they got. When they had their choice, because the team just ahead of them didn't take a QB they took Kelly, but they were rated equivalent. We also have to remember, like someone posted above, that in the greatest QB class ever, three were studs, one was pretty good, one was average and one sucked. So teams were basically only happy with three of the six, or fifty percent, which is about the same average as any number one pick at QB. Out of the big four this year, it's quite likely that two will succeed and two won't, depending of course on your definition of success. 

[Epstein's Mother]

On 4/29/2018 at 1:25 AM, Ol Dirty B said:

It could just be from the 30 for 30 and other short various coverage I've seen of that draft, but it seemed like it was the Jets fans who were most pissed off about taking Ken O'Brien over Marino.

 

The Jets fans were pissed off over nearly every draft pick the team had for decades.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, Epstein's Mother said:

 

The Jets fans were pissed off over nearly every draft pick the team had for decades.

And rightly so. 

[BullBuchanan]

On 4/28/2018 at 10:56 PM, Seanbillsfan2206 said:

It was the 83 draft. Marino had some character issues which is why he slid to the end of the 1st rd.

"Had" 

 

 

[Like A Mofo]

Imagine if twitter and twobillsdrive were around in 1983 and we picked Kelly over Marino. Rotary phones would be burning up the WGR550 phone lines, tons of busy signals, and everyone driving around in Yugo and Cutlasses would be freaking out.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, Like A Mofo said:

Imagine if twitter and twobillsdrive were around in 1983 and we picked Kelly over Marino. Rotary phones would be burning up the WGR550 phone lines, tons of busy signals, and everyone driving around in Yugo and Cutlasses would be freaking out.

Why? Kelly was a great prospect. I wanted Kelly over Marino. There wasn't much if any controversy whatsoever as far as I recall. As a senior, the year he was drafted, Marino threw 17 TDs and 23 INTs. That's why he fell so far.

[Cripple Creek]

8 minutes ago, Like A Mofo said:

Imagine if twitter and twobillsdrive were around in 1983 and we picked Kelly over Marino. Rotary phones would be burning up the WGR550 phone lines, tons of busy signals, and everyone driving around in Yugo and Cutlasses would be freaking out.

If you’re comparing it to Allen/Rosen then you’re way off base. I get the concerns about Allen, I just choose to not lose my mind over it. Would some have wondered about JK? Sure. The firestorm would have started when he chose Houston over Buffalo though, not with the draft itself.

[oldmanfan]

I was there and taking Kelly over Marino was not considered a big deal.  Marino dropping down was puzzling but there were rumors about him and drugs.

 

Taking Tony Hunter before Kelly?  That was a big deal.

 

[ganesh]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I was there and taking Kelly over Marino was not considered a big deal.  Marino dropping down was puzzling but there were rumors about him and drugs.

 

Taking Tony Hunter before Kelly?  That was a big deal.

 

Was there any talk about trading up for Elway in that draft ?

 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, ganesh said:

Was there any talk about trading up for Elway in that draft ?

 

Not that I recall.  

[ganesh]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Not that I recall.  

cool thanks...Of course without twitter, mobiles, internet, most of the news would have had to come from Talk show radios and News papers and those take time..so no immediate impacts..

[oldmanfan]

Just now, ganesh said:

cool thanks...Of course without twitter, mobiles, internet, most of the news would have had to come from Talk show radios and News papers and those take time..so no immediate impacts..

It was a simpler time to be sure.  And Baltimore had made it abundantly clear they were taking Elway anyway.  As clear as him saying he'd never play for the Colts.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

On 4/29/2018 at 7:30 AM, Skins Malone said:

For those who were old enough to remember...what was the reaction when Kelly initially wouldnt come here?  Did you believe it was just a matter of time before he came here or he was never going too?

No im pretty sure the rumor was cocaine.  

 

When Jim Kelly spurned the Bills in 1983, it was viewed as a catastrophe, and it happened not only while memories of Tom Cousineau's 1979 refusal to sign were fresh but also as the Bills were facing the prospect of Joe Cribbs leaving for the USFL as well. Cribbs' legal case carried on through the 1983 season, but he was gone thereafter. Between those memories and the fact that Chuck Knox had left angrily, things were as bad as they have ever been in Bills nation. The 1983 team showed flashes to get to 8-8, but then came the abortions of 1984 and 1985.  It's probably better that there was no Internet back then, because the TBD discussions would have been thermonuclear.

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

It was a simpler time to be sure.  And Baltimore had made it abundantly clear they were taking Elway anyway.  As clear as him saying he'd never play for the Colts.

Yep. There was no chance of trading up to #1. Elway may have said he wasn't playing for the Bills either. The Colts were pusies and caved to his threat that he would play baseball instead, as he was drafted by the Yankees, but that was never a real threat IMO. He was pretty much the best QB prospect ever. 

[Punching Bag]

On 4/29/2018 at 1:49 AM, Nihilarian said:

I bring it up because the Bills owner seemed to spare no expense on some really great team doctors back then. Rusty Jones was the teams S&C coach and Marv called him his "secret weapon" as the team would go to play Miami in 90-degree weather and the Dolphin players would be gassed hands on the hips and the Bills players were in much better condition.

 

Ralph had connections to Buffalo medical schools even then.  I was working once and saw Ralph with several professors and a dean or assistant dean.

 

And yes Rusty Jones was definitely a "secret weapon" for Bills.  He unretired and is now working for Colts.

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2018/2/16/17021290/is-the-colts-secret-weapon-a-guy-they-just-pulled-out-of-retirement

 

I do not think it is a surpise considered who is head coach (Frank Reich who had him as a coach for 9 years) and Colts GM who had him in Chicago prior to retirement.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Limeaid

[RichRiderBills]

Food for thought to look at Marino's completion percentage and TD/ Int ratio.

[Bing Bong]

9 hours ago, RJ (not THAT RJ) said:

 

When Jim Kelly spurned the Bills in 1983, it was viewed as a catastrophe, and it happened not only while memories of Tom Cousineau's 1979 refusal to sign were fresh but also as the Bills were facing the prospect of Joe Cribbs leaving for the USFL as well. Cribbs' legal case carried on through the 1983 season, but he was gone thereafter. Between those memories and the fact that Chuck Knox had left angrily, things were as bad as they have ever been in Bills nation. The 1983 team showed flashes to get to 8-8, but then came the abortions of 1984 and 1985.  It's probably better that there was no Internet back then, because the TBD discussions would have been thermonuclear.

Does this mean we can collectively hate Trump strictly for sabatoging the bills with the USFL? 

 

Very nervous about this attempt at comedy  mods pls lmk if I blew it

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 4/28/2018 at 10:33 PM, ganesh said:

This might be for the old timers who kept track of drafts (I did only after 1990)...

 

We had four QBs go in the 83 draft with Kelly taken ahead of Marino.  Considering the college resume of Miami. was there hair splitting in Buffalo at picking the wrong QB from Pennsylvania?  In the end it did not matter as both Kelly and Marino had stellar careers where they took their teams to SuperBowls (albeit never won one) and enshrined themselves in the HOF.  

 

 

 

Of course there wasn't social media or as many call-in radio shows back then. 

 

I don't remember so much the controversy about Marino vs Kelly in terms of pro readiness or likelihood to bust.  Kelly was considered a questionmark because of his shoulder injury, but there were all those rumors about Marino and white powder.  They were both considered good QB with the skills to succeed in the NFL as I recall.  The controversy where it was seen as a Yuge Mistake was when Kelly was lighting it up in the USFL while Marino was playing in the NFL.  Kelly never signed and took off for the USFL that spring and You Bet then there was a lot of "trouble in the tipi" especially when the "Phins" plugged Marino right in and went to the SB in '84.

[row_33]

10 hours ago, ganesh said:

Was there any talk about trading up for Elway in that draft ?

 

 

Colts took Elway as the 1st pick and Elway refused to play for them, forcing a trade with the Broncos

 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by row_33

[dlonce]

No issue at all. 

 

There was was only one can’t miss QB in that class,Elway. All the rest had problems, just like this years class.

Kelly had major shoulder surgery and there were questions of his recovery from it.

 

Marino was said to enjoy coke,party boy and so on.

 

That was an era when QBs were not protected,it wasn’t an offense oriented league and running games were of vast importance.

So there wasn’t as much fascination with the QB position. It was very important but there wasn’t much press regarding it.

 

Todays social media, and instant availability of news/sports shines a spotlight on athletes. 

Look at how people dissect a players every move.

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by dlonce

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

If you’re comparing it to Allen/Rosen then you’re way off base. I get the concerns about Allen, I just choose to not lose my mind over it. Would some have wondered about JK? Sure. The firestorm would have started when he chose Houston (USFL) over Buffalo though, not with the draft itself.

 

That's my memory.  It wasn't the draft per se,  In those days there wasn't a rookie payscale so negotiations took a while, teams lowballed guys and agents advised them to wait.  So fans were all excited about Kelly and then off he goes to the USFL and the gnashing and wailing were loud and vigorous, rising to a crescendo in 2 years when Marino was leading the Dolphins in a Superbowl and Kelly was still spurning us.  There was a lot of clamor to draft another QB, which we finally did (Reich) in 1985

[Bing Bong]

On 4/28/2018 at 10:56 PM, 2003Contenders said:

Guess you mean the 1983 draft, rather than the 1986 draft...

 

Marino fell in that draft because allegations had been leaked to the press (reputedly by Miami) that he had a drug problem. The team that was most famously duped was the Pittsburgh Steelers, the team that was originally planning on drafting the local kid.

Beane leaked the Josh allen Twitter. HOT TAKE. Machiavellian af

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

9 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Does this mean we can collectively hate Trump strictly for sabatoging the bills with the USFL? 

 

Very nervous about this attempt at comedy  mods pls lmk if I blew it

 

Heck, as much as it pains me to say it, we should be grateful to him for being such a fool that he destroyed the USFL quickly enough for Jim Kelly to come back to Buffalo...

[Bing Bong]

4 hours ago, RJ (not THAT RJ) said:

 

Heck, as much as it pains me to say it, we should be grateful to him for being such a fool that he destroyed the USFL quickly enough for Jim Kelly to come back to Buffalo...

Fair enough

[dave mcbride]

Most fans didn't care nearly as much about the draft back then and had a negligible amount of information to analyze compared to what they have now. Heck, teams themselves were relying on Street & Smith guides to take players.  

[CA OC Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, RJ (not THAT RJ) said:

 

Heck, as much as it pains me to say it, we should be grateful to him for being such a fool that he destroyed the USFL quickly enough for Jim Kelly to come back to Buffalo...

Yes, it wasn’t Trump who started the USFL or who took Kelly to Houston. But it was Trump who destroyed the USFL by moving from Spring to Fall and then suing the NFL for antitrust. Perhaps the USFL would have soon failed anyway, but could have taken a bit longer.

[Wagon Circler]

While Idon't remember seeing Kelly in college, I do remember seeing Marino a couple of games.  I remember a great throwing motion, but he threw a lot of interceptions. he certainly dropped in the draft, but I don't remember being shocked. 

 The draft wasn't as big a deal then as it is now. When Buffalo drafted Bruce Smith first, I'd barely heard of him!