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How does the Bills offensive line stack up against some of the glory years?


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How does the Bills o-line stack up against those of previous glory years?


I think there were 3 previous periods when the Bills were good. The first was I the old AFL days but that is hard to evaluate since there were two leagues that for many years (until Broadway Joe) not evenly matched. The other two were the “Electric company” years and the K-gun years.


There are a range (and I mean a range) of opinions as to how the Bills should proceed in this year's draft and the run from “Trade this and next year's draft for sure-thing QB X” (etc), through, trade up a little maybe, to “work on a foundation and draft QB in the 2nd or 3rd round. You might wonder how much in the way of higher draft picks those good Bills teams spent on their offensive line.


Different eras, different styles of play were involved but where the players were drafted and how dominate they were compared to their peers gives an indication. Here is some rough information.


=================================================
The Electric Company.


Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.
OT....................Foley,...................1st (#26)..............1
OG..................McKenzie.............2nd (#27)...............1
C......................Montler.................2nd (#32).............0

OG.................DeLamielleure.........1st (#26)..............6

OT...................Green......................5th (107)............0

TE....................Seymour................1st (#7)...............0



A few comments. The pro bowl is a bit of a popularity contest and some great players were shut out by some of the all time greats. Seymour was drafted as an offensive tackle but played TE and as a 6th O-lineman helped block for OJ. …. Okay, a summary


5of 6 drafted in the first two rounds

cost was 3360 total “draft points”
8 pro bowl spots


==============================================
1992 Bills


Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT...............Wolford …...............1st (#20)..................3
OG..............Richert.......................1st (#16)..................2
C..................Hull........................... ..??.........................3
OG..............Parker........................3rd (#69)..................0
OT …...........Ballard.....................11th (283).................2
TE...............McKeller....................9th (227)..................0


A few comments: Hull came over from the Generals where he signed before the 1983 NFL draft. McKeller only played one year of college football and was a basketball player who was a good receiver in the “K” gun offence.


2 of 6 (more like 3 if Hull included) drafted in the first two rounds
cost was 2065 points not including Hull
10 pro bowl spots.


================================================== ==


1995 Bills


Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT.............Fina..........................1st (#27).....................0
OG............Brown......................1st (14th).....................8 pro bowls !

C..................Hull........................... ..??.........................3
OG..............Ostroski.................10th (271)....................0

OT …..........Parker.....................3rd (60)........................0

TE................Johnson.................2nd (61)......................0



3 of 6 ( 4 if Hull included) drafted in the first 2 rounds

cost was 2372 not counting Hull
11 pro bowls spots






2018 Bills (as of 4/9/18)

Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT............Dawkins.......................2nd (#63)...................0

OG............Incognito....................3rd (#81)....................4

C …...........Gray.............................UFA.. ........................0

…..............Boline.........................4th (#111)..................0

OG............Ducasse......................2nd (#61)...................0

OT............Mills............................5th (#163)..................0

TE............Clan............................6th (#174)..................0



2 of 6 in the 1st 2 rounds
412 cost
4 pro bowl spots
=========================================
 

2018 Bills (as of 4/10/18) If Incognito actually has retired

Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT............Dawkins.......................2nd (#63)...................0


OG …...........Gray.............................UFA.. ........................0

C...............Boline.........................4th (#111)..................0

OG............Ducasse......................2nd (#61)...................0

OT............Mills............................5th (#163)..................0

TE............Clan............................6th (#174)..................0



2 of 6 in the 1st 2 rounds
227 cost
0 pro bowl spots
 

 


So if you want to give Ken Hull a rating of middle the 2nd round (420 points)?? these would come out as



Electric Company..........3360

1992 Bills.....................2465
1995 Bills.....................2792
2018 Bills......................412 or 227



Okay, you can find o-line gems in the lower rounds. BUT, I really think we have to pay serious attention to the o-line before we are back in the big time

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The Bills don't have an offensive line right now so it's a moot point.  But the Bills have had a consistently good to very good offensive line for the last five-six years or so, despite half of the fans always insisting that their offensive line always sucks even when it's good.  You can't lead the league in rushing and YPC for two consecutive years and not have a good line.  In 2012, Spiller averaged 6.0 YPC and they were the least sacked team in the league.  They were good then too.  But yes, this upcoming season will be interesting.

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18 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Is this a serious question? A current o line that is in a huge state of flux, with 2 of the current lineman below average players vs the best lines in franchise history?

It's a rhetorical ploy by a poster who is adamantly against trading up for a qb.

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2 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Is this a serious question? A current o line that is in a huge state of flux, with 2 of the current lineman below average players vs the best lines in franchise history?

            Yes it is serious.   There is a brand of posters here who say that all we need is a QB and we can say that we are in competition for a super bowl.   We didn't win in those years just because of a QB.   If we draft around #16, it would take two years of using the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks to spend up to getting such offensive lines. (If you are lucky).    Maybe you might want to draft somebody like Biscuit or Talley or Paup along the way for the defense.  A couple of defensive backs to cycle in and some good target wide receivers?  Sounds like a 10-12 first day draft picks?

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Just now, maryland-bills-fan said:

            Yes it is serious.   There is a brand of posters here who say that all we need is a QB and we can say that we are in competition for a super bowl

Literally no one says this.

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1 minute ago, Dr. Who said:

It's a rhetorical ploy by a poster who is adamantly against trading up for a qb.

The success rate for a the high first round is about 50%.  Even if that were successful, we would have a crap offensive line,  need two starting linebackers and one or two quality wide receivers. 

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How does it stack up vs. the OLines of the glory years? 

 

It doesn't. 

 

Four Pro Bowlers and a fifth in John Davis who deserved it as well. Those glory year OLines were among the best lines in history. They made the KGun possible. 

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5 minutes ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

            Yes it is serious.   There is a brand of posters here who say that all we need is a QB and we can say that we are in competition for a super bowl.   We didn't win in those years just because of a QB.   If we draft around #16, it would take two years of using the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks to spend up to getting such offensive lines. (If you are lucky).    Maybe you might want to draft somebody like Biscuit or Talley or Paup along the way for the defense.  A couple of defensive backs to cycle in and some good target wide receivers?  Sounds like a 10-12 first day draft picks?

 

I'm not sure if anyone has said that.

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2 minutes ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

The success rate for a the high first round is about 50%.  Even if that were successful, we would have a crap offensive line,  need two starting linebackers and one or two quality wide receivers. 

 

Bill's need a QB and will do their best to get one.  2 LB's are needed but they probably will get only 1.

The OL will need to eat up 2 picks this year. 

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1 minute ago, K-9 said:

How does it stack up vs. the OLines of the glory years? 

 

It doesn't. 

 

Four Pro Bowlers and a fifth in John Davis who deserved it as well. Those glory year OLines were among the best lines in history. They made the KGun possible. 

Thank you.  The QB is very important.  You have to give him weapons to use.  In those good years, the Bills continually built by using 1st and 2nd round picks for linemen.

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31 minutes ago, K-9 said:

How does it stack up vs. the OLines of the glory years? 

 

It doesn't. 

 

Four Pro Bowlers and a fifth in John Davis who deserved it as well. Those glory year OLines were among the best lines in history. They made the KGun possible. 

 

where were they for the Super Bowls?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

The current line of Dawkins, Ducasse, and Mills leaves something to be desired. I hope we don't plan on running between the tackles.

Need to draft more talent, cannot throw away picks for a QB that "might" be good. stay at 12 and keep picks. 

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Optomistically speaking

 

Dawkins - if he continues the progression he was making over the course of the season we should be set there.

 

LG (Vacant) I think that Groy now goes into that spot.......I thought he has been solid for us but it is a wait and see

 

C (Free Agent) at least it is being replaced with a vet

 

RG I really want Miller back in that spot.....for some reason some analysts think Decausse actually played well when given the opportunity......I kept seeing him get overpowered

 

RT This is why I didnt want Glenn traded.....because I wanted to see what bookends of Dawkins/Glenn could do....but what is done is done....there HAS to be someone better then Mills out there either free agency or draft

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34 minutes ago, K-9 said:

?

John Davis was a serviceable starter.  Let's not get carried away.  That Bills line was very good but it was never far and away the best line in the league or anything like that.  It was a top 5-10 line throughout that era.  The Bills' line over much of the last decade has also been a top 5-10 line.  We have a tendency to canonize guys because they played for the Super Bowl teams but what would Jim Ritcher be, really, if he never played in the Super Bowl?  Steve Freeman was a nice safety for the Bills for a long time but never came near a Super Bowl.  That doesn't affect my idea of how good of a player he was.  The Glenn/Incognito/Wood line was very, very good as well.  But if the OP's point is that they have their work cut out for them NOW, then of course I agree with him. 

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Optomistically speaking

 

Dawkins - if he continues the progression he was making over the course of the season we should be set there.

 

LG (Vacant) I think that Groy now goes into that spot.......I thought he has been solid for us but it is a wait and see

 

C (Free Agent) at least it is being replaced with a vet

 

RG I really want Miller back in that spot.....for some reason some analysts think Decausse actually played well when given the opportunity......I kept seeing him get overpowered

 

RT This is why I didnt want Glenn traded.....because I wanted to see what bookends of Dawkins/Glenn could do....but what is done is done....there HAS to be someone better then Mills out there either free agency or draft

They like this McDermott kid a lot.  Oh and by the way, he protected Josh Rosen at UCLA.

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Just now, metzelaars_lives said:

John Davis was a serviceable starter.  Let's not get carried away.  That Bills line was very good but it was never far and away the best line in the league or anything like that.  It was a top 5-10 line throughout that era.  The Bills' line over much of the last decade has also been a top 5-10 line.  We have a tendency to canonize guys because they played for the Super Bowl teams but what would Jim Ritcher be, really, if he never played in the Super Bowl?  Steve Freeman was a nice safety for the Bills for a long time but never came near a Super Bowl.  That doesn't affect my idea of how good of a player he was.  The Glenn/Incognito/Wood line was very, very good as well.  But if the OG's point is that they have their work cut out for them NOW, then of course I agree with him. 

Not getting carried away in the least. Davis was fantastic between Hull and Ballard and deserved the same kind of recognition. He seldom needed help which made Hull's job that much easier. 

 

And nobody is canonizing anyone. That line was simply one of the top lines in history over the course of several seasons in both the running game and pass protection. None of our OLines since have come close to that kind of proficiency in both disciplines. I'll just agree to disagree that our OLine has been just as good over the last decade. But I'm sure the Vlad Ducasses of the bunch appreciate the tip of the hat. 

 

And Jim Richter would be exactly what he was if he never played in a SB; a damned good LG who garnered Pro Bowl recognition. 

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57 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Not getting carried away in the least. Davis was fantastic between Hull and Ballard and deserved the same kind of recognition. He seldom needed help which made Hull's job that much easier. 

 

And nobody is canonizing anyone. That line was simply one of the top lines in history over the course of several seasons in both the running game and pass protection. None of our OLines since have come close to that kind of proficiency in both disciplines. I'll just agree to disagree that our OLine has been just as good over the last decade. But I'm sure the Vlad Ducasses of the bunch appreciate the tip of the hat. 

 

And Jim Richter would be exactly what he was if he never played in a SB; a damned good LG who garnered Pro Bowl recognition. 

The glory years offensive lines are not regarded as "all time great" offensive lines.  They were very good lines- some of the best in the league- and were able to stick together for a while, which certainly helped with continuity and familiarity.  But I don't think they were ever considered the best line in the league.  And I also think that too often not enough credit has been given to the Bills lines in the past decade.  The line of 2015-16 was a top 5 unit in the NFL.  As was their line in 2012.  Their line was actually pretty good back when they had Jason Peters in 2006-07.  Doesn't mean I'd take any of them over Wolford-Ritcher-Hull-Davis-Ballard; just saying the difference in where they ranked relative to the rest of the league then vs. say, 2015-16, might not be as great as you think.  And yes, we can agree to disagree.  

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Yes, I agree. They were very good but I wouldn't try too hard to say they were the best ever.  They did work well with Kelly and let him do his thing with TT and company.  Not quite good enough to get over the hump with several great teams from the national conference but they sure dominated the american conference.   What flabbergasts me is that it took a lot of work to build and maintain those great o-lines. They were absolutely vital and integral to the success of the QB that used them  to make the WR and RB into stars on those offenses...   You gotta have all three elements for an offense- the o-line, the skill players and the QB.  I wonder how many great HoF QB's are missing from the history of the NFL because they lacked the other 2 elements they needed.  Our current crop of TBD trolls only see the QB and not the foundation.  They get brain-dead when they are told about great QB's that never were very successful and some of the reasons why.

 

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Who elfin cares how "the Bills offensive line stack up against some of the glory years"?

 

Are you suggesting that Christian Hackensuck would prosper if he had a great O-line? 

 

We need a QB, we need to re-build the O-line.

 

They are both important, but one is more important.

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Not only is one more important, but it's more important to get that piece this year. Why? Because there are good QBs in this draft. Next year? Not really, and who knows about the year after that. You can however draft quality O line players in most every year. This years crop is actually thin on elite OT 's. All the more reason to go QB, then maybe an interior OL. Some fans seem to want everything in one year. You get the QB when you can. That looks to be best in 2018. 

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6 hours ago, SinceThe70s said:

Who elfin cares how "the Bills offensive line stack up against some of the glory years"?

 

Are you suggesting that Christian Hackensuck would prosper if he had a great O-line? 

 

We need a QB, we need to re-build the O-line.

 

They are both important, but one is more important.

Well many people care because it shows a serious team weakness that has to be fixed and it competes with resources that would be used to trade up for a shot at a QB.

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38 minutes ago, Helpmenow said:

You forgot the 64-65 teams offense line OP

 Which had hall of famer Billy shaw

I didn't forget them.  I sat in the Rockpile and watched them.   I didn't include them because the AFL and NFL were separate and it screwed up the drafts and the naming of the all-pros.   And Dennis Shaw was way overrated.

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8 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Not only is one more important, but it's more important to get that piece this year. Why? Because there are good QBs in this draft. Next year? Not really, and who knows about the year after that. You can however draft quality O line players in most every year. This years crop is actually thin on elite OT 's. All the more reason to go QB, then maybe an interior OL. Some fans seem to want everything in one year. You get the QB when you can. That looks to be best in 2018. 

 

I'll add that IMO the front office has been positioning themselves to grab a QB this year since they took over. 

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