Uncatchable pass %. Dennison's fault too ?

[Teddy KGB]

Cant wait to overhaul this team in the draft.  

 

Rosen and Rudolph can fix this issue I hope.   

Edited December 6, 2017 by Air it out Fitzy

[Buffalo Boy]

But.... but..... TT is a good QB???

[bobobonators]

Dennison is garbage. The two things arent mutually exclusive. 

[teef]

i mentioned this in a thread yesterday.  sure zay has had his share of drops, but a ton of the time when the ball is thrown his way, it's completely off target.  i'm not sure if his route running plays a big part, but i'm certain the qb play does.

[Teddy KGB]

12 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

Dennison is garbage. The two things arent mutually exclusive. 

 

He would be better with a qb that can make "all the throws" ? 

 

Dc's would worry about passing yards which would help the run game too. 

 

System worked with Texans and Broncos ?

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Air it out Fitzy

[BobChalmers]

4 minutes ago, teef said:

i mentioned this in a thread yesterday.  sure zay has had his share of drops, but a ton of the time when the ball is thrown his way, it's completely off target.  i'm not sure if his route running plays a big part, but i'm certain the qb play does.

 

Well since Zay Jones is hardly unique in this, I'm going with the QB as the issue.   Taylor throws wild to all of his receivers way way too often.

 

Since I'm only being quantitative on that second statement - anyone have a line on what sort of numbers the rest of the receivers have - or the same stat but for passers?

Edited December 6, 2017 by BobChalmers

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I mean... i can blame it on him a little bit when we have a QB who is clearly more comfortable in shotgun... taking snaps under center.  A QB who likes to buy time, and you have him throwing rhythm passes.  Or a team that clearly runs power and traps very well... running outside zones for 1 YPC and leaving us in constant 3rd and longs.

 

I think TT has been terrible for the last 5 weeks, and generally just serviceable.  But this OC has killed any chance the O had of succeeding.

[bobobonators]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

I mean... i can blame it on him a little bit when we have a QB who is clearly more comfortable in shotgun... taking snaps under center.  A QB who likes to buy time, and you have him throwing rhythm passes.  Or a team that clearly runs power and traps very well... running outside zones for 1 YPC and leaving us in constant 3rd and longs.

 

I think TT has been terrible for the last 5 weeks, and generally just serviceable.  But this OC has killed any chance the O had of succeeding.

Imagine Dennison coaching a rookie QB. 

 

“Dont worry about what you’re good at son; we dont focus on such things here”

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I did some math in another thread  (not that I'm a math geek)   

 

25 catches from 41 catchable passes.  ~  61 % 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

Unless it's a deep ball to Sammy down the sideline, every single one of TT's passes over his 3 years in Buffalo have been behind the WR.

 

I can't think of a single pass he's thrown on a normal route that hit the player in stride and gave him an opportunity for YAC.

 

That said, Dennison also sucks and needs to be replaced.

[87168]

does it really matter? what we can blame dennison for, is the overall regression of the offense. that can't be refuted. whether that's due to personnel changes or play calling, the offense has regressed under this OC.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just a caveat here that when a pass is thrown completely off target, we as fans can't always tell if it's a wildly inaccurate QB or if the QB and WR aren't "on the same page" as far as the variation of the route called for by the pre-snap reads.  You can usually tell if the ball sails feet higher than the receiver's outstretched hands and OOB, or down at his feet, but if it's thrown short or wide, it sometimes represents a route mismatch not a QB throwing "uncatchable balls".

There's also the point to be made that if the pass protection sucks the QB will be less accurate.

 

Please don't make the foolish mistake some do of interpreting the above as saying I'm a "Tyrod lover" and making excuses - facts are facts, and they differ from excuses, the point is, when you look at film, you can't (as a fan) always tell what's really going on.

24 minutes ago, teef said:

i mentioned this in a thread yesterday.  sure zay has had his share of drops, but a ton of the time when the ball is thrown his way, it's completely off target.  i'm not sure if his route running plays a big part, but i'm certain the qb play does.

 

See this kind of post drives me nuts.  You're not sure if his route running plays a big part - fair enough.  But it may.  That said, how can you be certain the QB play does?

Maybe it's on the QB, maybe it's on the WR.  We can't tell.

[BringBackFergy]

On the bright side, Tyrod's uncatchable passes are so far away from his own players and the defenders who cover them....so his INT rate is very low.  Score!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

26 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

But.... but..... TT is a good QB???

 

You know, more than one thing can be true at once.  It can be true that Taylor's play has looked worse this year

1) because he no longer has WR he's "in sync" with

2) running the routes he expects as he expects them from the pre-snap read

3) the pass protection is worse for whatever reason

4) he's being asked to play under center when he's more comfortable from shotgun

and

5) he's not a very good QB and we need to upgrade the position (from both Taylor AND Peterman)

 

Just sayin'

[26CornerBlitz]

[BillsFan1]

Its not about the X's and the O's its about the Jimmies and the Joes

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Just a caveat here that when a pass is thrown completely off target, we as fans can't always tell if it's a wildly inaccurate QB or if the QB and WR aren't "on the same page" as far as the variation of the route called for by the pre-snap reads.  You can usually tell if the ball sails feet higher than the receiver's outstretched hands and OOB, or down at his feet, but if it's thrown short or wide, it sometimes represents a route mismatch not a QB throwing "uncatchable balls".

There's also the point to be made that if the pass protection sucks the QB will be less accurate.

 

Please don't make the foolish mistake some do of interpreting the above as saying I'm a "Tyrod lover" and making excuses - facts are facts, and they differ from excuses, the point is, when you look at film, you can't (as a fan) always tell what's really going on.

 

See this kind of post drives me nuts.  You're not sure if his route running plays a big part - fair enough.  But it may.  That said, how can you be certain the QB play does?

Maybe it's on the QB, maybe it's on the WR.  We can't tell.

 

I think the benching of Taylor, when we held a playoff spot is a strong indicator that Taylor was the problem in the passing game.

McDermott took a risk and it failed but he just wanted to get better production in the air.

[Bangarang]

3 minutes ago, BillsFan1 said:

Its not about the X's and the O's its about the Jimmies and the Joes

 

It’s about both

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think the benching of Taylor, when we held a playoff spot is a strong indicator that Taylor was the problem in the passing game.

McDermott took a risk and it failed but he just wanted to get better production in the air.

 

Maybe.  Or maybe it's just flailing about by a coach with poor talent evaluation (to think Peterman was anywhere close to ready)

Edited December 6, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

5) Taylor is not a very good QB but there is no way you can evaluate a QB from just the Chargers game. I think Peterman could develop into a solid QB or a good backup QB. We gave EJ way to long to develop and Taylor was a backup for 4 years and at the bottom of the league in passing offense his 3 years as a starter. I think we can give this rookie at least a few more game's before we get the full picture.

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe.

 

Why else would he do it?  If Taylor isn't at fault, why make the QB change?  Why not make changes in other areas?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

5) Taylor is not a very good QB but there is no way you can evaluate a QB from just the Chargers game. I think Peterman could develop into a solid QB or a good backup QB. We gave EJ way to long to develop and Taylor was a backup for 4 years and at the bottom of the league in passing offense his 3 years as a starter. I think we can give this rookie at least a few more game's before we get the full picture.

 

When did that happen?  The fact is, EJ Manuel started games 1-5 of his rookie year.  He was given NO time to develop.  And in those 5 games, he looked better than some rookies, and worse than others.

But let's get back to the Taylor thing.  The fact is, the Bills were top of the league in rushing and had a high-scoring offense (10 or 11th with Taylor missing games, higher if projected towards 16). 

 

If you take a high-scoring offense led by a guy, and change it to something where the guy sucks, clearly it says the guy can't do what you want, but what does that say about your judgement that you want him to do something you can tell from 2 years of film, he was not successful at?

 

I'm not sure on what you base your belief that Peterman could develop into a solid QB - perhaps you could share that? 

With QB such as Wilson, Prescott etc they typically had  high completion percentage, as well as other pass measurables (yards, TD/INT, AY/A) at least their last year in college, high completion percentage in preseason, etc.  Whatcha got on Peterman?

 

 

[hemma]

Dennison may not be the ultimate OC, but I doubt that he calls in plays with patterns that are 4 yards out of bounds.

[C.Biscuit97]

I don't think RD is a good OC but it's hilarious how much we blame the OC for everything instead of looking at the players.  

 

TT is a limited qb but they forced him into a terrible offense for him and traded a wr defenses actually had to gameplan for.  Stupid moves.

[Royale with Cheese]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe.  Or maybe it's just flailing about by a coach with poor talent evaluation (to think Peterman was anywhere close to ready)

 

I just can't see it.  If Taylor wasn't struggling so much in the passing game, it wouldn't matter if Peterman looked ready or not....Taylor being pulled would never have been considered IMO.   If you pull a vet QB who is respected by the locker room for a 5th round rookie....the problem with the vet was big enough to make a "gutsy" move like this.

[Luka]

If you aren't blind or in some state of extreme denial, you already knew this. And no, it isn't about the route, it's about the QB. Tyrod is one of the most inaccurate QBs you will watch. His ball placement is awful. If the receiver is running across the field and he has to catch the ball on his back hip or make any kind of adjustment or slow down to catch the pass, it's an inaccurate pass.

[boyst]

1 hour ago, Air it out Fitzy said:

 

He would be better with a qb that can make "all the throws" ? 

 

Dc's would worry about passing yards which would help the run game too. 

 

System worked with Texans and Broncos ?

 

 

 

Why can't he simply coach to the ability of his players?  Good coaches coach their players. Not their system. 

 

Look at Belichick with any QB who filled in for terrible Brady. Look at what happened to the Ravens when Flaccid went down?  Look what happened when the Cowboys lost Romo?  What's his name the cowboys coach is a good offensive coach and former QB. That helped bigly. 

 

Good coaches coach players.  End of story. If Dennison can't get more out of Taylor and has produced less of him than any other OC than I have to believe the OC is a much yuger problem.

[Teddy KGB]

1 minute ago, Boyst62 said:

Why can't he simply coach to the ability of his players?  Good coaches coach their players. Not their system. 

 

Look at Belichick with any QB who filled in for terrible Brady. Look at what happened to the Ravens when Flaccid went down?  Look what happened when the Cowboys lost Romo?  What's his name the cowboys coach is a good offensive coach and former QB. That helped bigly. 

 

Good coaches coach players.  End of story. If Dennison can't get more out of Taylor and has produced less of him than any other OC than I have to believe the OC is a much yuger problem.

 

Taylor is cooked, he had his run and made some cash.    He did well for himself.    He's been limited the whole time with occasional peaks and valleys.   

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Why can't he simply coach to the ability of his players?  Good coaches coach their players. Not their system. 

 

Look at Belichick with any QB who filled in for terrible Brady. Look at what happened to the Ravens when Flaccid went down?  Look what happened when the Cowboys lost Romo?  What's his name the cowboys coach is a good offensive coach and former QB. That helped bigly. 

 

Good coaches coach players.  End of story. If Dennison can't get more out of Taylor and has produced less of him than any other OC than I have to believe the OC is a much yuger problem.

 

Dak Prescott is struggling this year.

Our terrible Rex Ryan defense last year shutout the Pats at home with Brissett.

Flacco has been terrible pretty much all year.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Luka said:

If you aren't blind or in some state of extreme denial, you already knew this. And no, it isn't about the route, it's about the QB. Tyrod is one of the most inaccurate QBs you will watch. His ball placement is awful. If the receiver is running across the field and he has to catch the ball on his back hip or make any kind of adjustment or slow down to catch the pass, it's an inaccurate pass.

 

It's probably hopeless to respond to someone who initiates their post with not one, but two, gratuitous insults, but I will try a bit of education in case anyone else can benefit.

 

Here is an article detailing the lengths to which Edelman*  went to "get on the same page" with Brady***.  If a receiver has to make any kind of adjustment, all one can say is that the sync between QB and WR is off.  I'm sorry, but someone who makes your definitive statement just doesn't understand how the QB-WR sync-up in route running works.  It's never 100% on the QB.

If you watch football games with teams with very very good WR, it's startling to look at how these WR routinely haul in balls that are "off" in placement (on their back hip, high, behind them, diving, one handed).  At least it's startling when you compare with what we have currently on the Bills.

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

Taylor is inaccurate I don't understand the discussion here. He has cost us allot of touchdowns and first downs because his placement is always poor. We know this and we have played with it for years. He runs around and throws balls behind receivers and at their ankles. Once the play has broken down it is no longer a timing route between the qb and receivers, it becomes backyard football and usually a guy sits down or comes back to him in space and he just flat out misses them or makes it so there is no YAC. A better more accurate qb can make those throws. 

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Dak Prescott is struggling this year.

Our terrible Rex Ryan defense last year shutout the Pats at home with Brissett.

Flacco has been terrible pretty much all year.

Look at more than this year.  And brissett is terrible.  Last year with Prescott was a lot better.  When Flaccid was down a few years ago the Ravens did well with backups 

 

Same with roerhlisberger being hurt. 

 

Good coaches overcome personnel issues 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Why can't he simply coach to the ability of his players?  Good coaches coach their players. Not their system. 

 

Look at Belichick with any QB who filled in for terrible Brady. Look at what happened to the Ravens when Flaccid went down?  Look what happened when the Cowboys lost Romo?  What's his name the cowboys coach is a good offensive coach and former QB. That helped bigly. 

 

Good coaches coach players.  End of story. If Dennison can't get more out of Taylor and has produced less of him than any other OC than I have to believe the OC is a much yuger problem.

 

This times 100.

 

Unless an OC is gifted with one of the 5 best QB in the league, every QB is going to have limitations and strengths.  Boyst is Right On here.  Successful coaches game plan to their players strengths.  Unsuccessful ones don't. It used to drive me absolutely nuts how Chan Gailey used to craft a pass-heavy offensive game plan for Ryan Fitzpatrick as if he had Aaron Rodgers at QB. 

Boyst did you see that other thread where I gave examples of coaches adjusting their game plan to players (I used the Pats*** as one example) and the dude ARGUED with me and said he still didn't see the benefit of adjusting a game plan to the player's capabilities based on 3 or 4 examples? 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan

[BringBackOrton]

13 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Why can't he simply coach to the ability of his players?  Good coaches coach their players. Not their system. 

 

Look at Belichick with any QB who filled in for terrible Brady. Look at what happened to the Ravens when Flaccid went down?  Look what happened when the Cowboys lost Romo?  What's his name the cowboys coach is a good offensive coach and former QB. That helped bigly. 

 

Good coaches coach players.  End of story. If Dennison can't get more out of Taylor and has produced less of him than any other OC than I have to believe the OC is a much yuger problem.

Cowboys went 4-12 when they lost Romo in 2015. 

 

Bad opinion. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by jmc12290

[bobobonators]

1 hour ago, Air it out Fitzy said:

 

He would be better with a qb that can make "all the throws" ? 

 

Dc's would worry about passing yards which would help the run game too. 

 

System worked with Texans and Broncos ?

 

 

 

Gary Kubiak worked with the Texans and Broncos. 

[Teddy KGB]

4 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

And brissett is terrible.   

 

He has more yards and Td's than the qb you called better than average.  

 

He cant be terrible if we cross reference.    

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Air it out Fitzy said:

 

He has more yards and Td's than the qb you called better than average.  

 

He cant be terrible if we cross reference.    

Brissett didn't even have an offseason with the Colts. He was traded and started in an entirely new offensive system.

 

Boyst is losing it.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

19 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Look at more than this year.  And brissett is terrible.  Last year with Prescott was a lot better.  When Flaccid was down a few years ago the Ravens did well with backups 

 

Same with roerhlisberger being hurt. 

 

Good coaches overcome personnel issues 

 

Problem with your theory:

 

2016 we had the 30th ranked pass offense.

2015 we had the 28th.

 

This is with two other OCs, and a full complement of the WR that people have been complaining about us not having.

 

So it's always been the coaches' fault?

Taylor's a nice guy, and a great wildcat QB. But he's a lousy QB otherwise.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by joesixpack

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, BringBackFergy said:

On the bright side, Tyrod's uncatchable passes are so far away from his own players and the defenders who cover them....so his INT rate is very low.  Score!!!

so, are you saying that 

his inaccuracy is an advantage?  

[PABillsfan23]

2 hours ago, Air it out Fitzy said:

 

He would be better with a qb that can make "all the throws" ? 

 

Dc's would worry about passing yards which would help the run game too. 

 

System worked with Texans and Broncos ?

 

 

 

I agree but most fan boys on here shoot that down.  Supposedly there’s OCs out there that can have every receiver wide open every play and it’s not the QBs fault for poorly thrown passes.