Tyrod is a franchise QB

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Well reading through this thread it's clear most won't budge.

Some previously adamant anTy Taylor guys are demonstrating actual flexibility and objectivity like JaCrispy, which is impressive.

Some clearly didn't even watch the game.

Some are hanging all over Romo's jock as a commentator, which is pretty funny.

This entire discussion is old and stale for many reasons, but some people have a vision of what they need their QB to be and Taylor will never be it, despite the obvious steps forward he's taken in his game.

 

Oh, what's a Franchise QB?

Are people seriously just equating Franchise QB with an Elite QB?

I remember GoBills808 once defined Franchise QB as a QB who starts for the same team for 5 straight years. That means Dalton and Flacco would be Franchise QBs.

Who here would do a straight up trade of Taylor for Flacco/Dalton?

Flacco is terrible. Dalton is not great. i put him at about even footing with Taylor, but he's such a drastically different player. I think he'd be more successful here because Cinci is toxic,  and they've never been able to run the ball. I don't think he'd lead us to a Super Bowl either, but he'd a be a 2-3 win upgrade. But no, I wouldn't want him if he became available.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...hard to deny this young man's drive, initiative, work ethic, commitment to team despite his shortcomings unless you purely want him to fail for whatever reason.......his failure hurts the TEAM unless that has no bearing on your personal dislike........only to toot your "I told you he sucks horn", repugnant as it is......is he a "franchise guy"?....probably not.......he won't be the guy who takes command and leads the club to numerous come from behind 4th quarter victories......can he be an effective game manager that keeps things close?....probably.....that is my perspective of what you are working with.....pedestrian with nothing flashy or huge upside to dramatically turn the tide when the game is on the line late............

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...hard to deny this young man's drive, initiative, work ethic, commitment to team despite his shortcomings unless you purely want him to fail for whatever reason.......his failure hurts the TEAM unless that has no bearing on your personal dislike........only to toot your "I told you he sucks horn", repugnant as it is......is he a "franchise guy"?....probably not.......he won't be the guy who takes command and leads the club to numerous come from behind 4th quarter victories......can he be an effective game manager that keeps things close?....probably.....that is my perspective of what you are working with.....pedestrian with nothing flashy or huge upside to dramatically turn the tide when the game is on the line late............

+1

[Koko78]

32 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

On the flip side, a "Franchise QB" needs almost 60 TDs per season, to you?

Now you're just going full retard.

[BringBackOrton]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I bet most GMs in this past offseason would have taken Glennon over Tyrod too. That’s because NFL GMs are regularly terrible and don’t know how to make good predictions. Brock Osweiler got a huge contract! Joe Flacco was the highest paid QB ever at the time when he got his extension, and since then has done absolutely nothing to live up to it. At the beginning of this year I’ll bet a decent percentage of GMs would have said they would take Siemian over Tyrod. Now, no chance. So I really don’t care what the average GM would do. They mostly suck at their job.

Winston and Mariota have flashed potential but they’re as inconsistent as anyone. If you watched the Titans closely like you do the Bills, what would your reaction be when they narrowly defeated the Browns in OT in a game with all field goals?

Are you having horrendous QB takes on purpose bro?

[BringBackOrton]

37 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Well reading through this thread it's clear most won't budge.

Some previously adamant anTy Taylor guys are demonstrating actual flexibility and objectivity like JaCrispy, which is impressive.

Some clearly didn't even watch the game.

Some are hanging all over Romo's jock as a commentator, which is pretty funny.

This entire discussion is old and stale for many reasons, but some people have a vision of what they need their QB to be and Taylor will never be it, despite the obvious steps forward he's taken in his game.

 

Oh, what's a Franchise QB?

Are people seriously just equating Franchise QB with an Elite QB?

I remember GoBills808 once defined Franchise QB as a QB who starts for the same team for 5 straight years. That means Dalton and Flacco would be Franchise QBs.

Who here would do a straight up trade of Taylor for Flacco/Dalton?

It's weird, don't you think TT isn't a franchise QB too?

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Agreed.  

I dont have an issue if people doubt Taylor as the long term answer and still want to draft a QB next year.  Its fair to have that opinion as he still has more to prove over the rest of the season one way or the other.  

However, anyone pinning the Thursday game on is either doing so because they just cant get passed their blind hatred of TT and are making a very biased statement, or they just really don't understand football like they think they do.  And that's just the harsh truth.

It wasn't a perfect game by Taylor or anyone on the team, but its a minor miracle that TT not only left the game healthy, but that he was able to accomplish even what he did.  Everyone on that team was letting him down from dropped passes, fumbles, and most importantly the revolving door of the OL.  The defense failed in all phases of the game too, and I don't think Denison did a very good job either.  Taylor and Zay really felt like the only guys ready to play Thursday.  

Kid showed that he is tough as nails, standing in there taking huge hit after huge hit to get the pass off.  How anyone could root against him right now is beyond me, this kid has more hearth than any Bills player we have seen in a long time.  And his teammates seem to think the same too.

Exactly.  Taylor and Zay were the only two people on the team that came to play.  They played tough, hard, and with heart.  They were also good.  Yet here are all the people that absolutely hate Tyrod and are so threatened by him they think the Bills will again skip drafting a QB so they have to spew their hatred... as usual blaming Tyrod.  Sorry guys but Tyrod was the best player in the game on Thursday.

Like you I also take no issue with people wanting the Bills to draft another QB for the future.  I tend to agree with that.  What I don't care for is people that are so in hatred mode that the end of the world is Tyrods fault no matter what happened.

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Ga boy said:

Romo's best point of the night was that he must throw the ball away instead of a sack.  Difference between 3rd and 8 and 3rd and 15.  Can someone call TT and tell him to just throw it away??!!  He was better at stepping up in the pocket at the end.  Also, he needs to learn the Brady side step.  C'mon man, this isn't that hard.

Look at the link and find the play from behind the pocket view.  That is the Brady sidestep.  Then look at the blanketed receivers that he didn't have to throw to.  Then look at where he went down.  That was one of the sacks.  At best it lost a yard.  Its tough to throw the ball away when there is no pocket.  Its tough to sidestep in a pocket when there is no pocket.  Look at the plays and read the analysis.  He had no chance and did everything he could.  Sure you can call out a play or two and say TYROD YOU SUCK!!!.  Every QB in the league has those same plays or twos or threes.

 

You all act like other QBs score on drive after drive after drive.  Most of the time that doesn't happen.  Every time Taylor was driving the pocket collapsed, Dennison called consecutive plays to Tolbert, someone fumbled the ball, or someone dropped the ball.  Taylor can't play every position.  Tyrod was an absolute gamer in the harshest of conditions and some haters are being just that... hating just to hate.

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Koko78 said:

Now you're just going full retard.

Resorting to name calling now? Go read your own words.

 

the wheels seem to be falling off for the anTy argument

[Koko78]

19 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Resorting to name calling now? Go read your own words.

 

the wheels seem to be falling off for the anTy argument

No, pointing out you being stupid is not name calling. It's pointing out that you're being stupid. Stop being stupid, and I would not have to point it out for you.

Though it's cute that you think I'm anti Tyrod. You never disappoint when you get on your high horse.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

But a lot of what you are saying is pure speculation as well. How do you know he would be the top FA? That alone is speculation and a guess 

He obviously stayed in Buffalo to make a business decision. Would he be staying in Buffalo if he was making 700k a year? No, there were obviously a lot of factors that went into it.

Teams don't have to negotiate with him for him to know the market out there and what he would be making.

You are telling me his agent didn't do his homework and gave Tyrod a rough estimate of what he would be making in the free agent market? Come on man. 

That is the agents job and with millions of dollars on the line, don't tell me Tyrod didn't  think about what was best for him from a financial standpoint and as well from a performance perspective. They can give a great ball park figure to what their clients will be making. now, and even in the future with QBS virtually getting bigger contracts every year.

I am not saying Tyrod couldn't have made more going somewhere else, but I also will say that him and agent knew a ballpark figure to what he would be making, and he would rather come back to Buffalo on almost a prove it type of contract, so he can cash in a couple years. Buffalo was most likely his best chance to succeed as well, which again, equals more money after this short term contract.

Is this speculation? Of course, but it also makes sense. Unless you believe that TT would take a 30-50 million dollar reduction just to say he wants to play in Buffalo because he loves it here.

 Tyrod isn't staying in Buffalo because he has some sort of an unconditional bond for this city.. He is doing it because it is a business move with lots of factors involved. 

 

 

 

Dude, you keep saying his agent told them there is no money.  There is ZERO evidence of that on any level.  This is a scenario you have decided to create.  

On the other hand, Tyrod REPEATEDLY stated he did NOT want to leave Buffalo.  Every single piece of factual evidence states his preference was to remain in Buffalo regardless.  You have no idea if there was LESS or MORE money available in FA.  His agent could have been urging him to not restructure and take more money somewhere else for all you know, but you have completely made up your own version of events that completely contradict every single thing publicly stated at every step of the way.

And I am sorry, I am not speculating on whether he would have been top FA QB on the market, he absolutely 100% would have been the best QB available over anyone last FA period.  Glennon was NOT a better FA, couldn't keep his own job on any of the chances he had, and only got a good deal because there was garbage on the market.  TT is a 2 year starter, with 2 Pro Bowl invites, a terrific TD:INT ratio, and lethal with his legs.  You want to call it "speculation" about stating he was the top FA on the market had he been cut, well go ahead.  But I doubt many in the NFL would have felt the same, especially since so many kept saying he would be the best FA had Buffalo cut him.  

Again, I respect you as a poster, so its all good man.  But you and I are WAY far apart on this.  Everything you have said had exactly zero to back it up.  Tyrod CLEARLY stated he wanted to be here, period.  Then he backed that and restructured to stay despite the fact he could have EASILY gotten the same if not more money on the open market.  There was literally a ZERO percent chance he would have gotten a worse deal than he has now on the open market.  Thats just NFL economics.  He is here because he wanted to be here.

[mead107]

Tyrod is awesome 

[BillsFan130]

53 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Dude, you keep saying his agent told them there is no money.  There is ZERO evidence of that on any level.  This is a scenario you have decided to create.  

On the other hand, Tyrod REPEATEDLY stated he did NOT want to leave Buffalo.  Every single piece of factual evidence states his preference was to remain in Buffalo regardless.  You have no idea if there was LESS or MORE money available in FA.  His agent could have been urging him to not restructure and take more money somewhere else for all you know, but you have completely made up your own version of events that completely contradict every single thing publicly stated at every step of the way.

And I am sorry, I am not speculating on whether he would have been top FA QB on the market, he absolutely 100% would have been the best QB available over anyone last FA period.  Glennon was NOT a better FA, couldn't keep his own job on any of the chances he had, and only got a good deal because there was garbage on the market.  TT is a 2 year starter, with 2 Pro Bowl invites, a terrific TD:INT ratio, and lethal with his legs.  You want to call it "speculation" about stating he was the top FA on the market had he been cut, well go ahead.  But I doubt many in the NFL would have felt the same, especially since so many kept saying he would be the best FA had Buffalo cut him.  

Again, I respect you as a poster, so its all good man.  But you and I are WAY far apart on this.  Everything you have said had exactly zero to back it up.  Tyrod CLEARLY stated he wanted to be here, period.  Then he backed that and restructured to stay despite the fact he could have EASILY gotten the same if not more money on the open market.  There was literally a ZERO percent chance he would have gotten a worse deal than he has now on the open market.  Thats just NFL economics.  He is here because he wanted to be here.

I appreciate you saying you have respect for me, as I definitely respect all your posts as well.

Ya we are pretty far off here. Like you said, all good.

You're right in saying that there is no evidence in what I said. There isn't any and it's just my personal opinion. 

You very may well be right.

Anyways bud, enjoy the rest of your Saturday night

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

I appreciate you saying you have respect for me, as I definitely respect all your posts as well.

Ya we are pretty far off here. Like you said, all good.

You're right in saying that there is no evidence in what I said. There isn't any and it's just my personal opinion. 

You very may well be right.

Anyways bud, enjoy the rest of your Saturday night

You too man, again, nothing but respect for you...this is just one of those cases where we will agree to disagree.  No love lost.  

PS:  My use of caps on certain words (as always) was just to emphasize key words, not to yell.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

15 TD per season really isn’t a lot to brag about.    

Show us  25 to 30 and no one would complain.  

[transplantbillsfan]

2 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

It's weird, don't you think TT isn't a franchise QB too?

What quote of mine are you responding to?

[mead107]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

From when we lost it during spring forward.... it was a joke. Apparently a bad one.

13-3 Baby 

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

What quote of mine are you responding to?

I feel like we all decided TT probably wasn't a franchise QB at some point this season.  So that's a big reason why this debate is silly and tired.  It's picking at straws.

[Augie]

28 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You too man, again, nothing but respect for you...this is just one of those cases where we will agree to disagree.  No love lost.  

PS:  My use of caps on certain words (as always) was just to emphasize key words, not to yell.  

Does the new format have a “get a room” button? 

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

It's weird, don't you think TT isn't a franchise QB too?

TBD and borderline but making the case as one so far

[BillsFan130]

34 minutes ago, Augie said:

Does the new format have a “get a room” button? 

Hahaha

[BillsFan130]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You too man, again, nothing but respect for you...this is just one of those cases where we will agree to disagree.  No love lost.  

PS:  My use of caps on certain words (as always) was just to emphasize key words, not to yell.  

No problem buddy, thanks for the clearance

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

15 TD per season really isn’t a lot to brag about.    

Show us  25 to 30 and no one would complain.  

Who the HELL is getting 15 TDs per season?!

 

Some posts in here are absolutely moronic!

[Iron Maiden]

IMO, Taylor is not a franchise QB....I keep thinking about  comments from opponents stating  " the game plan against Tyrod Taylor is Make him be a QB "....we've heard it before...and I unfortunately think we'll hear it again.....stack the box....let him try to beat you in the air......I've seen a few post blaming the lack of run game to explain the lost to the Jets....I'm not sure those posters realize they are proving the point....teams focus on the ground game and are betting on TT not carrying the team on his shoulders...which is a thing franchise QB dies.....bottom line is this...I don't think we can win a SB with him...and that, in my humble opinion, is not a true franchise QB.....

[Koko78]

38 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Who the HELL is getting 15 TDs per season?!

 

Some posts in here are absolutely moronic!

 

You're right, the math was off. It's actually 18 TDs per season he averages.

 

Whoopty-!@#$ing-do.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

On 11/3/2017 at 1:31 PM, Domdab99 said:

He proved it last night. There is no QB in the league who could've done better that TT did last night. Constant pressure, a sieve of an OL...but he kept it calm and cool and did what he could. Hit every damn receiver he had all over the field.

 

If anyone ever again says he can't throw over the middle, you need to turn in your Bills card.

 

The running game was awful. His receiver dropped balls and fumbled. He had three monsters in his face hitting him within 2 seconds of just about ever play. He still fought and still had a good game.

 

I know it sounds strange after such a drubbing, but this may be the game that we look back on and point to when we say, "Tyrod is finally the Man."

 

Embarrassing loss, yes. But don't blame Tyrod. He played great.

 

I want some of what this guy is smoking please, he seems to get the good ****. If we had a QB there would be no doubt in my mind we be a constant playoff team, a franchise QB also makes the WR around him better, Matthews is almost extinct in this offense, probably will be the same with Benjamin.

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, Koko78 said:

No, pointing out you being stupid is not name calling. It's pointing out that you're being stupid. Stop being stupid, and I would not have to point it out for you.

Though it's cute that you think I'm anti Tyrod. You never disappoint when you get on your high horse.

Stupid?

Who's the friggin dumbass insinuating you need close to 60 TDs to be a Franchise QB?

Or that Taylor only gets 15 TDs a year?

 

Still using the word "retard," are we?

 

[grb]

42 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said:

IMO, Taylor is not a franchise QB....I keep thinking about  comments from opponents stating  " the game plan against Tyrod Taylor is Make him be a QB "....we've heard it before...and I unfortunately think we'll hear it again.....stack the box....let him try to beat you in the air......I've seen a few post blaming the lack of run game to explain the lost to the Jets....I'm not sure those posters realize they are proving the point....teams focus on the ground game and are betting on TT not carrying the team on his shoulders...which is a thing franchise QB dies.....bottom line is this...I don't think we can win a SB with him...and that, in my humble opinion, is not a true franchise QB.....

 

The Jets? Well, lets look at the numbers :

 

New York - Week 1 : The running backs gain 154 yards at 4.47 yards a carry. Taylor throws for 224 yards, runs for 38 yards.

New York - Week 9 : The running backs gain 28 yards at 1.75 yards a carry. Taylor throws for 285 yards, runs for 35 yards.

 

So you look at this and blame Taylor?  Because the Jets didn't think to "focus on the ground game" in Week 1? It didn't occur to them? Is it possible your reasoning is a bit simplistic?

[Koko78]

42 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Stupid?

Who's the friggin dumbass insinuating you need close to 60 TDs to be a Franchise QB?

Or that Taylor only gets 15 TDs a year?

 

Still using the word "retard," are we?

 

Well, considering that 60 touchdowns is not even  close to anything I've ever said, I stand by my assessment of your rather idiotic strawman argument.

 

You're right about the 15 touchdowns, though. His average is 18 throwing and 3 rushing per season. Franchise numbers. Give the man a $160 million contract for that production. Hell, just put him on the wall of fame and schedule his induction in Canton for next summer.

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Koko78 said:

 

You're right, the math was off. It's actually 18 TDs per season he averages.

 

Whoopty-!@#$ing-do.

 

Hilarious. I'm assuming now you're drastically reducing this all to passing TDs instead of total TDs.

 

Taylor averaged 23.5 TDs in his first 2 years as a starter.

 

Funny. Most people round up when it's 0.5, yet you couldn't even say 19 passing TDs. You had to round down, which no one ever does.

 

Talk about an absolutely pathetic agenda:doh:

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Hilarious. I'm assuming now you're drastically reducing this all to passing TDs instead of total TDs.

 

Taylor averaged 23.5 TDs in his first 2 years as a starter.

 

Funny. Most people round up when it's 0.5, yet you couldn't even say 19 passing TDs. You had to round down, which no one ever does.

 

Talk about an absolutely pathetic agenda:doh:

 There's no agenda. Taylor is just bad. I was a big supporter last year, but he's proven that he doesnt have what it takes to be a full-time starter in this league. I hope we trade him to the Browns in the offseason.

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

 There's no agenda. Taylor is just bad. I was a big supporter last year, but he's proven that he doesnt have what it takes to be a full-time starter in this league. I hope we trade him to the Browns in the offseason.

LOL

[transplantbillsfan]

35 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

Well, considering that 60 touchdowns is not even  close to anything I've ever said, I stand by my assessment of your rather idiotic strawman argument.

 

You're right about the 15 touchdowns, though. His average is 18 throwing and 3 rushing per season. Franchise numbers. Give the man a $160 million contract for that production. Hell, just put him on the wall of fame and schedule his induction in Canton for next summer.

 

You can't even do simple math.

 

Anazing.

[GunnerBill]

Part of the problem with this argument is the need by each side to hyperbole after each performance. 

 

To claim after Thursday that it somehow proves TT a franchise QB is a bit crazy. It should, surely, be enough to say this is the first time this season Tyrod played pretty well in a loss and given absolutely zero help by our line he did enough to give us a chance to win a football game.

 

To be honest I don't think anyone can prove themselves a franchise QB in a loss because part of the job is winning. I know Tyrod still has a winning record.... this thread was started with hyperbole and it means the argument is bound to have a slightly ridiculous tone after that.

[Iron Maiden]

8 hours ago, grb said:

 

The Jets? Well, lets look at the numbers :

 

New York - Week 1 : The running backs gain 154 yards at 4.47 yards a carry. Taylor throws for 224 yards, runs for 38 yards.

New York - Week 9 : The running backs gain 28 yards at 1.75 yards a carry. Taylor throws for 285 yards, runs for 35 yards.

 

So you look at this and blame Taylor?  Because the Jets didn't think to "focus on the ground game" in Week 1? It didn't occur to them? Is it possible your reasoning is a bit simplistic?

 

As you are well aware, a lot of those yards came once the game was already decided.....the Jets learned from the 1st game and made adjustments....are you saying that is unrealistic ? Stack the box and let TT beat you in the air....that's what they did and they destroyed us....As I said, bottom line is this...I don't think TT is capable to bring a SB to Buffalo, therefore  he's not a franchise QB....he's not as bad as some are saying on here...but he's not a franchise QB....

[xRUSHx]

14 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

15 TD per season really isn’t a lot to brag about.    

Show us  25 to 30 and no one would complain.  

I don't care about his stats of how many times he scores if he can't score enough to win it just doesn't matter. Just because Tyrod scored against the Jests doesnt say he had a good day it says he didnt do enough. Winners win and score enough to win.

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, xRUSHx said:

I don't care about his stats of how many times he scores if he can't score enough to win it just doesn't matter. Just because Tyrod scored against the Jests doesnt say he had a good day it says he didnt do enough. Winners win and score enough to win.

We are certainly in agreement here. Fortunately he’s 20-17 so he’s scored enough against more than half of the teams he’s faced.

[QB Bills]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201001100crd.htm

 

In the same season: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200910110buf.htm

 

To all of "the only stat that matters is wins" people, do you realize how dense you sound?

 

One thing I wish fans could understand is that you can't use wins and losses to determine an individual player's value in a team sport. This isn't tennis or golf. 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201001100crd.htm

 

In the same season: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200910110buf.htm

 

To all of "the only stat that matters is wins" people, do you realize how dense you sound?

 

One thing I wish fans could understand is that you can't use wins and losses to determine an individual player's value in a team sport. This isn't tennis or golf. 

I don’t necessarily disagree but they do attribute wins and losses to QBs and pitchers. There are a lot of factors that go into the outcome but it is used as a measuring stick. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

11 hours ago, Iron Maiden said:

IMO, Taylor is not a franchise QB....I keep thinking about  comments from opponents stating  " the game plan against Tyrod Taylor is Make him be a QB "....we've heard it before...and I unfortunately think we'll hear it again.....stack the box....let him try to beat you in the air......I've seen a few post blaming the lack of run game to explain the lost to the Jets....I'm not sure those posters realize they are proving the point....teams focus on the ground game and are betting on TT not carrying the team on his shoulders...which is a thing franchise QB dies.....bottom line is this...I don't think we can win a SB with him...and that, in my humble opinion, is not a true franchise QB.....

 

....agree on all accounts IM.....a very fair assessment....maybe I'm old school, but I think a prerequisite for a franchise QB is to be able to put the other 10 on his back when trailing in the 4th  and calmly march his club down the field to the "W" when called upon.....unless he has a career epiphany, I don't see TT being able to do that consistently.... I see him more as a pedestrian game manager (NOT a criticism; my assessment) whose wheels are an added dimension......is he improving?....sure....is he capable of solid game(s)?....of course......everybody was clicking in the Raiders game including TT spreading the ball around and doing a nice job with reads/progressions, Shady & run game, OL and the bend don't break "D".....then we come to the Jets OVERALL stinker (hardly TT's total fault)......the Jets punched and we couldn't counter.......coaches had ZERO answers as far as adjustments.......and Dennison reminded me of a mumblin', stumblin' , bumblin' Steve Fairchild with his play calling............