I'm a Taylor Fan........ But again 213 yards passing

[JM2009]

It makes chuckle when these guys try hard to point Tyrod into the Rogers/Brady category when if you really look at it those two win games regularly while always in the playoff hunt and make it happen when it counts while Tyrod is padding stats after a negative first half. Wow look at those stats in that loss. SMH

 

Tyrod did ok the first few games better then I expected from him but to lump him into that category with those 2 is the reason we still have some thinking it's everyone else at fault as to why this team isn't a playoff team.

 

The real season starts now, like it or not we will see where this team is going. Again I was surprised at Tyrod but since our D stood on their heads and we had a few lucky breaks we got those two wins not because Tyrod did anything a franchise worthy QB would have done just what a backup QB is trained to do, protect the ball and hope the rest of the team bails you out.

 

After 2 years we know he isn't capable of doing it, that's why many want more because yes the QB is the one that either gets you to the playoffs or ends the playoff run.

 

Some day we will have a offense that teams fear but for now we have to wish the rest of the team plays so well they can cover for our QB that is trained to play as a backup.

The Mods really need to look at this type of constant posting. It is obviously agenda driven- lose it's all on TT, win, the rest of the team,not TT.

[The Wiz]

So the Denver game wasn't a real game because the Bills won with TT. Denver is over rated , right? Just like I said yesterday about the Atlanta game-chomping at the bit because we all know the Bills will probably lose this one. newsflash: Most teams would lose in Atlanta, even those with elite QBs.

I think his point was more that Brady or Rodgers throwing for under/around 200 is the outlier where it's usually the norm for TT unless it's garbage time. Which wouldn't be an unfair argument because he has padded his numbers when the game was out of reach.

[xRUSHx]

So the Denver game wasn't a real game because the Bills won with TT. Denver is over rated , right? Just like I said yesterday about the Atlanta game-chomping at the bit because we all know the Bills will probably lose this one. newsflash: Most teams would lose in Atlanta, even those with elite QBs.

Better chance to win when your not using a backup type QB. When I say backup type QB it's because backups are trained to protect and do very little while wishing on others to play bigger.

 

I never said Denver wasn't a real game. I don't understand how your so one sided and refuse to look at both sides of a coin. Stop being so serious with me and maybe we can start talking in a more civilized manor. So sick of your nasty attitude towards me, I have a opinion like it or not. I don't agree with you but try hard not to be a jerk to you even after your many rude comments.

 

I'm not chomping at any bit, I love the Bills and I hope they prove me wrong this season and that includes Tyrod. I am criticizing him in hopes he gives the team more. Sure this game is more then likely a loss but it could be a win and man I sure hope we get the win. I'm just sick of the everyone else is at fault mentality and it is why I point to the Chan/Fitz days. I have doubts about him and until he proves otherwise I will continue to think he needs to be replaced.

[JM2009]

I think his point was more that Brady or Rodgers throwing for under/around 200 is the outlier where it's usually the norm for TT unless it's garbage time. Which wouldn't be an unfair argument because he has padded his numbers when the game was out of reach.

Believe me, if the Bills lose in Atlanta, he'll be on here as quick as quick can be.

[xRUSHx]

The Mods really need to look at this type of constant posting. It is obviously agenda driven- lose it's all on TT, win, the rest of the team,not TT.

And here again I try to be nice and you get all nasty, same old JM you don't like a comment and you go full steam into a wall. SMH

 

The only agenda JM is you with your agenda to discredit any poster that you don't like talking

Believe me, if the Bills lose in Atlanta, he'll be on here as quick as quick can be.

I'm here everyday JM Edited September 29, 2017 by xRUSHx

[JM2009]

Better chance to win when your not using a backup type QB. When I say backup type QB it's because backups are trained to protect and do very little while wishing on others to play bigger.

 

I never said Denver wasn't a real game. I don't understand how your so one sided and refuse to look at both sides of a coin. Stop being so serious with me and maybe we can start talking in a more civilized manor. So sick of your nasty attitude towards me, I have a opinion like it or not. I don't agree with you but try hard not to be a jerk to you even after your many rude comments.

 

I'm not chomping at any bit, I love the Bills and I hope they prove me wrong this season and that includes Tyrod. I am criticizing him in hopes he gives the team more. Sure this game is more then likely a loss but it could be a win and man I sure hope we get the win. I'm just sick of the everyone else is at fault mentality and it is why I point to the Chan/Fitz days. I have doubts about him and until he proves otherwise I will continue to think he needs to be replaced.

"The real season starts now, like it or not we will see where this team is going. " So the real season hadn't begun already. Denver wasn't enough of a challenge. I bet you picked them to lose that one.

[TheFunPolice]

Taylor CAN pass the ball. We've seen it again and again in my opinion.

 

I've even fallen into the trap of thinking "he can't throw. He won't throw" Etc.

 

Then they start calling passes. Suddenly Matthews is open. Clay is open. The ball moves right down the field.

 

Then it's back to run up the middle for 1 yard, run up the middle and lose 2 yards, and get into an obvious 3rd and long passing down that has little chance.

 

But in the Miami game last year, in the Carolina and Denver games this year when we NEEDED to move the pass via the pass guys were open all over the place and Tyrod made plays.

 

MAYBE just MAYBE we don't need to run as much. Why not become a more balanced offense? Our passing game with Taylor is making plays, but the COACHES are holding them back.

[xRUSHx]

"The real season starts now, like it or not we will see where this team is going. " So the real season hadn't begun already. Denver wasn't enough of a challenge. I bet you picked them to lose that one.

Why do I bother with you?

 

Ok I'm still trying, why I don't know.

 

Look man I don't hold the same enthusiasm to win vrs the Jezts a team looking to stink.

A close loss to Carolina a team with a broken QB or a home game win against a team with a young QB making mistakes. Like I said I'll be more excited when we string some solid wins until then I'm hopeful but not getting my hopes up we will finally get that mircle playoff run out of Tyrod. Got my fingers crossed so much they bleed but sadly I'm just not seeing it like you do. I picked them to win 6 or 7 this season so we just got 2 of them.

Edited September 29, 2017 by xRUSHx

[JM2009]

Why do I bother with you?

 

Ok I'm still trying, why I don't know.

 

Look man I don't hold the same enthusiasm to win vrs the Jezts a team looking to stink.

A close loss to Carolina a team with a broken QB or a home game win against a team with a young QB making mistakes. Like I said I'll be more excited when we string some solid wins until then I'm hopeful but not getting my hopes up we will finally get that mircle playoff run out of Tyrod. Got my fingers crossed so much they bleed but sadly I'm just not seeing it like you do. I picked them to win 6 or 7 this season so we just got 2 of them.

This is ridiculous. It really is. No one picked the Bills to beat Denver, who had just blew out Dallas. But it wasn't much of a win now. SMH

[Alphadawg7]

Taylor CAN pass the ball. We've seen it again and again in my opinion.

 

I've even fallen into the trap of thinking "he can't throw. He won't throw" Etc.

 

Then they start calling passes. Suddenly Matthews is open. Clay is open. The ball moves right down the field.

 

Then it's back to run up the middle for 1 yard, run up the middle and lose 2 yards, and get into an obvious 3rd and long passing down that has little chance.

 

But in the Miami game last year, in the Carolina and Denver games this year when we NEEDED to move the pass via the pass guys were open all over the place and Tyrod made plays.

 

MAYBE just MAYBE we don't need to run as much. Why not become a more balanced offense? Our passing game with Taylor is making plays, but the COACHES are holding them back.

 

Way too much logic and reason in this very good post, shame on you for saying something smart

[xRUSHx]

This is ridiculous. It really is. No one picked the Bills to beat Denver, who had just blew out Dallas. But it wasn't much of a win now. SMH

Again I don't hold the same enthusiasm with the win that is all, it's a opinion man like it or not.

What is ridiculous is me trying to have a civilized talk with you. I understand why many now have you blocked because I really feel like punching a baby now thank you.

[BuffaloHokie13]

This is ridiculous. It really is. No one picked the Bills to beat Denver, who had just blew out Dallas. But it wasn't much of a win now. SMH

I did! https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/196506-broncos-bills-predict-the-score/?view=findpost&p=4547675

[JM2009]

Again I don't hold the same enthusiasm with the win that is all, it's a opinion man like it or not.

What is ridiculous is me trying to have a civilized talk with you. I understand why many now have you blocked because I really feel like punching a baby now thank you.

We all know why you don't have the same enthusiasm.

I did! https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/196506-broncos-bills-predict-the-score/?view=findpost&p=4547675

I know. I thought they might win too. I was talking mainly about the national guys.

[Alphadawg7]

Why do I bother with you?

 

Ok I'm still trying, why I don't know.

 

Look man I don't hold the same enthusiasm to win vrs the Jezts a team looking to stink.

A close loss to Carolina a team with a broken QB or a home game win against a team with a young QB making mistakes. Like I said I'll be more excited when we string some solid wins until then I'm hopeful but not getting my hopes up we will finally get that mircle playoff run out of Tyrod. Got my fingers crossed so much they bleed but sadly I'm just not seeing it like you do. I picked them to win 6 or 7 this season so we just got 2 of them.

 

Anyone who doesn't count the Denver game as a "solid" win should really look in the mirror and ask what their real agenda is. They were a top 5 ranked team coming into that game...but because the BILLS beat them you and others want to disregard just how good they were playing and how good of an overall team they really are?

 

People NOT in the know don't even realize that if you project Trevors stats over a full 16 game season last year that he would have had thrown for 4100 yards and 20+ TDs. But he missed 2 full games and most of a third when he got hurt in the first quarter (after starting 5/7 for 68 yards and a TD). Trevor then started this year with 6 TD's over his first 2 games to go with that talented defense.

 

Keep discounting that as NOT a quality win all you want, but you are categorically wrong. In no way does beating one good team mean we are a playoff team, we as a team have a lot to prove. But make no mistake about it, Denver win was a very good win for us and one that most didn't give us a chance at.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[xRUSHx]

 

Anyone who doesn't count the Denver game as a "solid" win should really look in the mirror and ask what their real agenda is. They were a top 5 ranked team coming into that game...but because the BILLS beat them you and others want to disregard just how good they were playing and how good of an overall team they really are?

 

People NOT in the know don't even realize that if you project Trevors stats over a full 16 game season last year that he would have had thrown for 4100 yards and 20+ TDs. But he missed 2 full games and most of a third when he got hurt in the first quarter (after starting 5/7 for 68 yards and a TD). Trevor then started this year with 6 TD's over his first 2 games to go with that talented defense.

 

Keep discounting that as NOT a quality win all you want, but you are categorically wrong. In no way does beating one good team mean we are a playoff team, we as a team have a lot to prove. But make no mistake about it, Denver win was a very good win for us and one that most didn't give us a chance at.

I'm just not enthusiastic about the win. It was a home game and we got some lucky bounces. Sorry man but head examined is a little extreme with the comment in my opinion. Yes it was a win against a real good team but and but.

 

After so many loser seasons I'm just not getting my hopes up. It's my opinion if you don't like it just say it stinks, the name calling and the agenda garbage is a JM tactic.

Edited September 29, 2017 by xRUSHx

[John from Riverside]

I'm just not enthusiastic about the win. It was a home game and we got some lucky bounces. Sorry man but head examined is a little extreme with the comment in my opinion. Yes it was a win against a real good team but and but.

 

After so many loser seasons I'm just not getting my hopes up. It's my opinion if you don't like it just say it stinks, the name calling and the agenda garbage is a JM tactic.

I didnt realize that we had to justify a NFL win

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

He did net 4 TD's though.

I think it's the only reason he's still on the team.

[xRUSHx]

I didnt realize that we had to justify a NFL win

Did I ask you or anyone to justify a win for me?

Talk about arguing to argue. Again it's my opinion, like it or not. SMH

[JM2009]

I'm just not enthusiastic about the win. It was a home game and we got some lucky bounces. Sorry man but head examined is a little extreme with the comment in my opinion. Yes it was a win against a real good team but and but.

 

After so many loser seasons I'm just not getting my hopes up. It's my opinion if you don't like it just say it stinks, the name calling and the agenda garbage is a JM tactic.

This post proves you have an agenda, and others know it too. Best win in years, best Sunday win in years, very happy Sunday, but not for you, and a few others. Like I said, you and others can't wait for the probable loss on Sunday. That's when the real season starts for you, right?

Edited September 29, 2017 by JM2009

[xRUSHx]

This post proves you have an agenda, and others know it too. Best win in years, best Sunday win in years, very happy Sunday, but not you, and a few others. Like I said, you and others can't wait for the probable loss on Sunday. That's when the real season starts for you, right?

Now after punching the baby it's time to kick the dog. I'm done with you. ignore

[JM2009]

Now after punching the baby it's time to kick the dog. I'm done with you. ignore

You spilled the beans when you said the Denver win wasn't much.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

I'm here everyday

 

 

unfortunately.

 

Why do I bother with you?

 

Ok I'm still trying, why I don't know.

 

Look man I don't hold the same enthusiasm to win vrs the Jezts a team looking to stink.

A close loss to Carolina a team with a broken QB or a home game win against a team with a young QB making mistakes. Like I said I'll be more excited when we string some solid wins until then I'm hopeful but not getting my hopes up we will finally get that mircle playoff run out of Tyrod. Got my fingers crossed so much they bleed but sadly I'm just not seeing it like you do. I picked them to win 6 or 7 this season so we just got 2 of them.

 

 

so you just pick out the wins you find justifiable. not that it's a win, it's a win you can't justify in your mind.

 

 

guess what, a win is a win, no matter how you want to spin it or deny it was worthy of a win.

I'm just not enthusiastic about the win. It was a home game and we got some lucky bounces. Sorry man but head examined is a little extreme with the comment in my opinion. Yes it was a win against a real good team but and but.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone who doesn't count the Denver game as a "solid" win should really look in the mirror and ask what their real agenda is. They were a top 5 ranked team coming into that game...but because the BILLS beat them you and others want to disregard just how good they were playing and how good of an overall team they really are?

 

People NOT in the know don't even realize that if you project Trevors stats over a full 16 game season last year that he would have had thrown for 4100 yards and 20+ TDs. But he missed 2 full games and most of a third when he got hurt in the first quarter (after starting 5/7 for 68 yards and a TD). Trevor then started this year with 6 TD's over his first 2 games to go with that talented defense.

 

Keep discounting that as NOT a quality win all you want, but you are categorically wrong. In no way does beating one good team mean we are a playoff team, we as a team have a lot to prove. But make no mistake about it, Denver win was a very good win for us and one that most didn't give us a chance at.

[xRUSHx]

 

 

 

unfortunately.

 

 

 

so you just pick out the wins you find justifiable. not that it's a win, it's a win you can't justify in your mind.

 

 

guess what, a win is a win, no matter how you want to spin it or deny it was worthy of a win.

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately here you are on JMs shoulder again.

 

Thank you for your voice of wisdom don't know how I made it this long in life without it. Again its just my opinion on this season so far I really don't care who likes it this isn't Facebook it's a opinion based message board.

[section122]

I like to see the Bills win 11 games a season.

 

Nothing that TT has shown me has convinced me he'll reach 10 or 11 wins even with a TOP 5 Defense

 

To convince me he is great and beyond reproach, TT needs to lead the Bills to 10 or 11 wins, especially with a top 5 D.

 

So you don't watch Alex Smith play? I have said time and again Smith to me is the best player comp in the league to TT. The Chiefs are highly successful and have been over the last several years. The difference between the Bills and Chiefs has been talent on both sides of the ball and coaching not qb play. Seriously look up the stats.

 

I don't know why this little group hates the guy so much. Their dishonest posting everyday is getting intolerable. They are chomping at the bit for the Atlanta game, which I hope we win, but not expecting it. They will be back in full force Sunday afternoon. They had to lay quiet after the Denver win for most of the week.

 

It may have to do with transplants thread. Instead of saying something nice they just aren't saying anything at all

 

They wont have enough to trade up to the top 2 spots because those teams wont trade if they need a qb.

 

 

I agree if the teams need a qb but that is a big if. The season has to shake out but teams with a chance at a top 2 pick include Chargers (unless they want move on from Rivers), Bengals (same with Dalton), Colts (Luck), Texans (Watson), Giants (Eli), Niners (possible Cousins destination), Seahawks (wilson), Bears (Trubisky), Bucaneers (Jameis), and Saints (Brees). Obviously it is only week 3 and many of these teams may right the ship but the draft is a long way away. There may be a team or several teams that look to deal bc they don't need a qb much like the titans 2 years ago.

 

I really think Peterman has a low ceiling but he definitely should get a shot to win a job in camp. Best man wins.

 

I think Peterman, TT, and the draft pick should all get the chance to win the job and best man wins. I don't want anyone handed it. Not Tyrod because he is the incumbent, not the draftee because he was a high pick, and well peterman will only get it IF he really outshines the other guys.

 

Do me a favor, take your first 3 fingers and hold them up while with your pinkie grab it with your thumb in the same hand.. So your holding up 3 fingers. First one a win, second a loss, 3rd a win, now take those wins and set them on your thumb.

 

Okay I disagree with a lot of your posts but this was hilarious!

 

 

 

 

Much to my surprise, passing yardage came out not at all statistically correlated to winning. Rushing yardage, OTOH, was statistically correlated to winning. I was surprised because we hear so much about "it's a passing league", so I went through about 5 years of data, same thing.

 

 

 

I too ran this last year or the year before. It turns out having a lot of 300+ yards passing usually meant you had a poor defense and/or were trailing in a lot of games and forced to pass. Having a lot of 100+ yard rushing games meant you had a good defense and/or led in a lot of the games and therefore sat on the ball. Wins were much more correlated to runs but the causation wasn't running = wins it was wins = running. Much the same passing didn't = losses but losses meant passing at least imo from the numbers I ran and looking at the context of those numbers.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

Unfortunately here you are on JMs shoulder again.

 

Thank you for your voice of wisdom don't know how I made it this long in life without it. Again its just my opinion on this season so far I really don't care who likes it this isn't Facebook it's a opinion based message board.

 

 

I speak for myself. don't crowd me in with those who also don't like your agenda around here. you're right, it is an opinion based board. some opinions make good sense, some don't and some just flat out suck.

 

carry on, with your opinions.

Edited September 29, 2017 by DaBillsFanSince1973

[John from Riverside]

Did I ask you or anyone to justify a win for me?

Talk about arguing to argue. Again it's my opinion, like it or not. SMH

Your opinion sucks

 

(Athough I am sure in real life you are totally a cool person)

[xRUSHx]

Your opinion sucks

 

(Athough I am sure in real life you are totally a cool person)

Thanks John I'm sure you are a very cool person as well. Maybe someday at a game I'll buy you a beer or two.

Also thanks for just saying it sucks I respect that 100x over then the other type comments.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

I too ran this last year or the year before. It turns out having a lot of 300+ yards passing usually meant you had a poor defense and/or were trailing in a lot of games and forced to pass. Having a lot of 100+ yard rushing games meant you had a good defense and/or led in a lot of the games and therefore sat on the ball. Wins were much more correlated to runs but the causation wasn't running = wins it was wins = running. Much the same passing didn't = losses but losses meant passing at least imo from the numbers I ran and looking at the context of those numbers.

 

Isn't that what I suggested? "Now correlation is not causation, as statisticians and scientists like to point out. I think it's because teams that are behind, are often slinging it frantically to try to score quickly and catch up. OTOH, teams that are ahead, are usually handing off and grinding it out as the safer, more clock-eating option."

[mannc]

This is ridiculous. It really is. No one picked the Bills to beat Denver, who had just blew out Dallas. But it wasn't much of a win now. SMH

Even more ironic when you consider that xRushx picked Denver, 38-9. But now Denver sucks.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Even more ironic when you consider that xRushx picked Denver, 38-9. But now Denver sucks.

 

....he was the same "model of consistency (COUGH)" on BBMB....some things never change...............

[Scott7975]

Even more ironic when you consider that xRushx picked Denver, 38-9. But now Denver sucks.

Kind of like the other guy that said anyone who thought Denver was a good team was crazy (paraphrasing) yet in his score prediction he said Denver would dominate us.

[mannc]

Kind of like the other guy that said anyone who thought Denver was a good team was crazy (paraphrasing) yet in his score prediction he said Denver would dominate us.

And then tried to deny that he had predicted that...

[Scott7975]

I'm just wondering why no one whipped up some all22s this week. They come out in full force to show how terrible Tyrod is in a loss.

 

Also a certain someone normally on all week telling us how bad Tyrod is with his church of Tyrod stuff hasn't been on all week.

And then tried to deny that he had predicted that...

Yup

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

I'm just wondering why no one whipped up some all22s this week. They come out in full force to show how terrible Tyrod is in a loss.

 

Also a certain someone normally on all week telling us how bad Tyrod is with his church of Tyrod stuff hasn't been on all week.

 

 

 

been kind of quiet around here in that respect. funny thing is, the bet was you had to post positive up to the next game. hasn't posted anything yet, says a lot to me.

[Scott7975]

 

been kind of quiet around here in that respect. funny thing is, the bet was you had to post positive up to the next game. hasn't posted anything yet, says a lot to me.

Exactly

[transplantbillsfan]

Again I don't hold the same enthusiasm with the win that is all, it's a opinion man like it or not.

What is ridiculous is me trying to have a civilized talk with you. I understand why many now have you blocked because I really feel like punching a baby now thank you.

 

Remember all the smack you were talking last week leading into the Broncos game?

 

Too bad you refused to put your money (so to speak) where your mouth is and participate in the ">200 yards & W" bet that even Crusher and old school were willing to participate in.

 

Do you seriously just always have to be this negative about the team and Taylor that you couldn't stand a fun little bet of being positive for a week?

 

You speak so concretely about everything... are you just a paper tiger? You've said a number of times this team stands no chance of making the playoffs with Taylor at QB.

 

Do you still feel that way?

[QB Bills]

I'm just wondering why no one whipped up some all22s this week. They come out in full force to show how terrible Tyrod is in a loss.

 

Also a certain someone normally on all week telling us how bad Tyrod is with his church of Tyrod stuff hasn't been on all week.

 

Yup

Haha...that majbob guy? He's been MIA all week

[3rdand12]

All we can hope for is the Broncos offer us a 2nd rd pick for Taylor before the trade deadline.

Has Taylor even thrown for 300 without going into OT?

It truly is.

 

All we can hope for : (

[xRUSHx]

 

Remember all the smack you were talking last week leading into the Broncos game?

 

Too bad you refused to put your money (so to speak) where your mouth is and participate in the ">200 yards & W" bet that even Crusher and old school were willing to participate in.

 

Do you seriously just always have to be this negative about the team and Taylor that you couldn't stand a fun little bet of being positive for a week?

 

You speak so concretely about everything... are you just a paper tiger? You've said a number of times this team stands no chance of making the playoffs with Taylor at QB.

 

Do you still feel that way?

I wasn't talking any smack. I gave my opinion on the score, I downplayed Tyrod as a franchise worthy QB in one or two posts that were on said topic but that's it.

 

You girls sure play up a big story that never happened. I see your little group still doing the same BBMB little girl school age tactics of ganging up on people just to get a rise out of them because they have a different opinion then yours. Its funny and sad all in one. One gurl says "yeah he's not nice", next one says "yeah I heard he don't like girls", next one says "yeah he is meanie and his parents are alcoholics". Pathetic

 

As for my prediction yes I still feel this team will miss the playoffs with 6 or 7 wins. I hope Im incorrect as I want to purchase playoff tickets for once.

[3rdand12]

 

 

Except that part of that's not true: the last time I ran the stats, rushing yards ARE correlated to winning in the NFL. You can't see it as clearly yet this season, but overall it's true

 

Simplistically, the reason for this is straightforward if you think about it a minute: when teams are ahead, if they can rush well enough to achieve 1st downs, that's a low-risk way of eating up the clock.

On the other hand, when teams are behind, they're pretty much forced to pass to try to catch up.

 

What worries me about the Bills offense right now isn't Taylor's lack of passing yards, but their ineffectiveness at establishing a running game. Last year, teams could stack the box and try to shut down the run, and they usually couldn't.

 

PS I haven't done as much recently, but to many of the old timers here I'm well known as a stats geek. If I use a stats word like "correlated" I usually know WTF I'm talking about.

Those who know you even as little as I, love you. And yes you do bring defendable discussion each and every time.

that why i never argue with you

 

The change in the Offense seems to be taking a bit longer then we hoped eh?

I have seen some very impressive plays from them all early on. even Mills made a play or two

But Defenses must be keying on something to kill our run game two weeks running. still daring Tyrod to win by throwing i suppose

Edited September 29, 2017 by 3rdand12