Just talked to a former player from the SB years

[gonzo1105]

Here is the thing, I don't think McDermott or Beane care what the locker room thinks about what they are doing. So this players point means nothing.

 

They are in the process of turning over this roster already and in two years the vast majority of this roster won't be here. I mean look at all the possibilities

 

Tyrod Taylor-def gone

Shady McCoy-good chance he's gone in two years

Charles Clay- above average chance

Richie Incognito- prob gone

Jordan Mills-gone

Kyle Williams-gone

Lo Alexander-gone

Ramon Humber-non starter or gone

 

This team will be remade for good or bad and most of the locker room they are supposedly upsetting won't be here so the point is really mute

[Gugny]

 

Most of the players on that mediocre "winning" *9-7 team were acquired before Whaley became GM. The entire starting DLine (Mario, Kyle, Dareus, Hughes), Gilmore, Searcy, AWill, McKelvin, Freddy, Spiller, Cordy Glenn, Wood, Scott Chandler, etc. The foundation of the team were acquired before Whaley was named GM. How is that "building"?

 

And Whaley supported the Rex hire. If he were against it like he should have been then there's no way the Pegulas hire Rex.

 

It seems that you and I are not going to agree. And that's okay, because I love you more than air.

 

Whaley did not support the Rex hire.

 

Whaley built a defense that would undoubtedly (proven in time) fail under Rex Ryan's "leadership." There's no way he'd sign on for that.

 

The Pegulas forced Rex onto Whaley, effectively sabotaging his career.

 

But HEEEEYYYY ... THEY KEPT THE TEAM IN BUFFALO, RIGHT?!?!?!?!

 

For this, they are Gods. Not fake Gods like Zeus or Pegasus. They are bigger than Jesus Christ.

 

Peace be with you, my friend.

 

Love,

Me

[Big Turk]

All this complaining about what the new staff has done is really a drag. We just spent 4 years with an egotistical moron followed by a blowhard clown. All any of us wanted was for new blood at gm and coach and we by all accounts ,have gotten what appears to be a respectable pair.

 

I can't expect to agree with every move they make but I look at it like this. ...

 

If I had to bet $100 bucks on whether Sammy would play all 16, I'd bet he!! no. If I had to bet $100 that we would be able to sign him after this year and him not wanting to catch the first plane out...too a team we could/would never match..I'd bet he!! no. That being said, I'll take Gaines and the pick.

 

We did get a very good receiver in Matthews and a pick, so production wise and time on field wise, I think it will pay off.

 

Ragland for a 4th in 2019, I didn't like, I would have rather found a speedster or a RT, but, I'm not gonna call the staff stupid.

 

My biggest beef is Castillo and how crappy this line has played...and for the love of God leave Miller alone and try Groy at RT if we can't find someone on a cut.

 

I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to the staff going into week one to get their $het together. If trading Sammy was equivalent to cutting off Tyrod's throwing arm, then we will see Peterman play. Realistically, do I expect a WC this year?...no...but I won't rule it out either. I believe we are gonna see a whole different team come week one.

 

I hope Matthews can step right in. I think Zay will be an upgrade to Woods. I think Brandon Reilly will be a better version of Chris Hogan and Streeter and Tate can help as well. I think Oleary will show us why he won the best college TE award. I have a lot of faith in the talent we have. I also like the way we are setting ourselves up for the future.

 

Actually, I haven't felt this good going into a season in more years than I can remember. All this negativity is not gonna drag me down.

 

The part about Sammy makes no sense since we wouldn't have to match, we just apply the Franchise tag.

[Shamrock]

Mike Lodish was certainly lucky.

[folz]

I liken this process to having your house be the feature point of 'Extreme Home Makeover'. Currently we are in the demolition phase and a lot of people are getting teary-eyed because they see the stuff they are familiar with, things that they have been around and have sentimental value, being destroyed. Let's wait until the big reveal before we get so upset. Our consistent lack of success is the only thing I would consider a **** show at this point in time.

 

This. Great analogy BuffaloHokie13.

[Marty McFly]

It was a talented team that lacked direction.

You exaggerate. The team was not devoid of talent. It has been a middle tiered team at least for the last few seasons.

Yep.

[fansince88]

Says to self..."dont open this" doeznt losten to self....now walking away.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

I liken this process to having your house be the feature point of 'Extreme Home Makeover'. Currently we are in the demolition phase and a lot of people are getting teary-eyed because they see the stuff they are familiar with, things that they have been around and have sentimental value, being destroyed. Let's wait until the big reveal before we get so upset. Our consistent lack of success is the only thing I would consider a **** show at this point in time.

I feel like this is the 5th or 6th time my house has been on the show, in fact, the show's been the only thing consistent about the last 17 or so years

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

I cant wait to see what this board is like once the draft is over and the Bills drafted 6 starters in the first 3 rounds and possibly even have a franchise QB

 

 

 

CBF

they will hate everyone of the picks.

[Gugny]

they will hate everyone of the picks.

 

There will always be "those guys," but I always thought this place was pretty positive/excited after the draft.

 

This preseason is the earliest I've ever seen this much pessimism (myself included). Last year it started around week 2 of the regular season.

 

I, for one, can't wait for the draft and I also have faith that Beane will knock it out of the park.

[PolishDave]

 

There will always be "those guys," but I always thought this place was pretty positive/excited after the draft.

 

This preseason is the earliest I've ever seen this much pessimism (myself included). Last year it started around week 2 of the regular season.

 

I, for one, can't wait for the draft and I also have faith that Beane will knock it out of the park.

 

Was this pessimism as prevalent before the Sammy trade? I know it wasn't for me. That trade cracked my optimism completely - same as it would have it Sammy would have torn an ACL and been out for the season.

 

I was really looking forward to the offense taking another step forward this year hopefully. And with an improved run defense, this team would be respectable. Now my intuition (whether right or wrong) tells me that the offense will most likely take a big step backwards and as a result the entire team will take a big step backward. I am guessing other people might feel that way too..

[BuffaloHokie13]

I feel like this is the 5th or 6th time my house has been on the show, in fact, the show's been the only thing consistent about the last 17 or so years

True enough. But this is the first time, to my recollection, that the people in charge are actually reworking the foundation in that time span. Unfortunately, it is difficult to keep a lot of the things above that in tact while doing major foundation work.

[billsredneck1]

 

The part about Sammy makes no sense since we wouldn't have to match, we just apply the Franchise tag.

 

Fair enough, but for $100...Sammy plays all year?....or Sammy gets hurt? What would you do? Franchise a guy who misses time and may need another op+rehab?

 

......Or try to trade him and get nothing..? They gambled and made the right move in my eyes. I kinda know someone very close to Sammy and I get the self-centered,prima donna vibe. That's all I'm gonna say about that.

 

I don't get the whole purge argument. Gaines may be just as good as Darby would have in this scheme. Matthews will probably put up numbers just as good as sammy this year, and we gained a couple of high picks.

 

They traded Ragland who wsn't cutting it....and I feel they didn't get enough, but all this complaining about purging I just don't get. My biggest beef is a proven failure as our oline coach....and why aren't Miller and Dawkins penciled in on the right side period.! I can't for the life of me figure out why this team has ignored the right tackle spot since...Eric Pears?

Edited August 30, 2017 by billsredneck1

[Chandler#81]

I was thinking Matt Darby or Mark Pike.

Ko Simpson

 

it's just an opinion. Many of the League 'talking heads' -including fellow players, agree.

 

I'm starting to think so too..

[26CornerBlitz]

Ko Simpson

 

it's just an opinion. Many of the League 'talking heads' -including fellow players, agree.

 

I'm starting to think so too..

 

He wasn't from the Bills' SB era, but his opinion is still worth millions. Just ask him.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just spoke in person with a former Bill from our glory days (not giving his name-sorry). He felt our coach and GM are handling this all wrong. He felt the message the coach and GM are sending to current players is that this year is a wash. He said that is a poor way to build a team (he also said that they are turning loyal fans away). He went into detail about how they should have called in each player for an interview about where they were going to get a feel if they were a fit or not. He is not sure our current regime has done this. I take his opinion seriously because he used to play.

 

If he's not sure that they've done this, he's not sure that they haven't done this either.

 

My problem with McWrestler and Mr Bean is more fundamental than this. Ultimately, I feel that coaches that focus on "fit" for their scheme come up short in the NFL because the group of truly talented players is small, and the group of talented players that fit a specific scheme is smaller. If the chips fall right and your scouting is good, you can land a bunch of talented players. If the stars fall right, you can land a few talented players that fit your scheme, then you're hunting out players that "look like you want your player to look" and you hope will develop.

 

Wade Son of Bum said it: if you can't use talented players in your scheme, maybe it's your scheme that's the problem. And it seems fairly apparent that McWrestler is very focused on scheme.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan

[BillsFan17]

1) They didn't just show up and and start trading people. They went through camps, practices and pre season games.

 

2) This year absolutely is a wash. For the first time we aren't going for a mediocre season. We weren't a contending roster and if you thought otherwise, that's on you.

 

I have adamantly spoken out on twitter about the consistent turnover being the biggest issue with this team.

 

Every regime wants to put their stamp on this franchise, but none were willing to call a spade a spade. This team needed to be purged and rebuilt.

[Heavy Kevi]

I don't disbelieve the OP's story or that a former player might think that.

 

But at the same time I don't see how a former player (who isn't dealing with McD any more than we are), knows something we don't. Being his opinion is fine, but I just don't value anybodys opinion on the matter and am willing to let it play out.

 

That's from someone who is very skeptical about the return we have gotten from recent trades (myself). Fact is, we don't know how it will turn out, but I respect the honest attempt at a legitimate rebuild. Too many half assed, win-kinda-now-but-still-rebuild years and need a real foundation if we want a build something big. Overzealous, cap cuffing, "big splash" signings are a thing of the past and that is refreshing. I am going to "trust the process", but I might mumble and groan along the way.

[billsredneck1]

 

If he's not sure that they've done this, he's not sure that they haven't done this either.

 

My problem with McWrestler and Mr Bean is more fundamental than this. Ultimately, I feel that coaches that focus on "fit" for their scheme come up short in the NFL because the group of truly talented players is small, and the group of talented players that fit a specific scheme is smaller. If the chips fall right and your scouting is good, you can land a bunch of talented players. If the stars fall right, you can land a few talented players that fit your scheme, then you're hunting out players that "look like you want your player to look" and you hope will develop.

 

Wade Son of Bum said it: if you can't use talented players in your scheme, maybe it's your scheme that's the problem. And it seems fairly apparent that McWrestler is very focused on scheme.

Scheme? Switching back to an attacking 4-3 is a dramatic ill advised scheme change?

Edited August 30, 2017 by billsredneck1

[BillsFan17]

What does that even mean?

 

You trade young talented players because the previous regime drafted them and the new one had nothing to do with them?

The talented young players all had huge question marks to go along with their talent.

 

I'm not overly happy about it, but the fact of the matter is 7-9, 8-8, 9-7, 6-10x3, etc... just isn't cutting it for me at least. The roster, as constructed before the trades was not necessarily a playoff team, let a long one that was built towards long term competitiveness.

 

I don't think we needed to make as drastic of moves, but if these moves are helping to gear up for a QB in 2018 and putting together a more cohesive roster, then I am all for it.

 

However, we need to now stick with this and not change the course in two or three years.

[schoolhouserock]

This doesn't surprise me. McBeane do not seem like "player's coach/GM" to me.

[Nervous Guy]

What does that even mean?

 

You trade young talented players because the previous regime drafted them and the new one had nothing to do with them?

I think it's obvious what he meant, they went through a process of installing a scheme they wanted to go with, evaluated players, and either kept them or jettisoned them because of fit, attitude, money or ability....aside from a few players who walked because they wanted to, they got draft picks to build a team they want....not because they were drafted by another regime....no doubt the players traded had talent, they didn't fit, had an attitude or wanted too much cash.

[HT02]

Just spoke in person with a former Bill from our glory days (not giving his name-sorry). He felt our coach and GM are handling this all wrong. He felt the message the coach and GM are sending to current players is that this year is a wash. He said that is a poor way to build a team (he also said that they are turning loyal fans away). He went into detail about how they should have called in each player for an interview about where they were going to get a feel if they were a fit or not. He is not sure our current regime has done this. I take his opinion seriously because he used to play.

While I certainly respect the opinions of former players it remains just that, his opinion. Doesn't make it right or a fact. The glory day Bills played under Marv who ran a pretty loose ship. That "treat them like men" approach also has its drawbacks and there are a lot of people (including me) who think that if Marv had been a little more disciplined the Bills may have actually won one of those four Super Bowls. To look at it another way, do you think either of the "Bills" Belichick or Parcells would have done what that player suggested? How about Jimmy Johnson? Lots of ways to win, I am giving McDermott and Co. the benefit of the doubt for now.

[mjt328]

Which is a lot to ask.

 

4 to 5 SOLID starters in one draft is not easy. **** Belichick doesn't even do that.

 

The odds are stacked against them.

 

In my time observing NFL "rebuilding" projects, I've noticed that a GM can address about one-fourth of a team per year (using both the draft and free agency). This comes to about 5-6 starters and about 7-8 backups.

 

How long a rebuilding project takes is dependent on how many pieces are already in place when the GM arrives, and how effective that GM is in drafting, signing and re-signing good players. A strong team with most of the pieces in place may only take 1 season to turn around. A team completely devoid of talent like the Cleveland Browns or San Francisco 49ers may take 3-4 seasons.

 

When a coach brings in a new scheme, certain players don't fit and the rebuilding process takes longer. This is one of the main reasons the Bills have been spinning their wheels between 6-9 wins almost every season for the last decade. This cannot be understated. In my personal opinion (and I know that I'm not alone on this board), the Bills have been about a year away from playoff contention almost every offseason. With continuity, a strong draft and solid free agent pickups, we could easily bump the win total to double-digits. But then we flip the scheme and reset the process by at least another year.

 

By hiring Sean McDermott (and flipping back to a 4-3 defense), I figured this team was going to spin its wheels in the 6-7 win area again in 2017. But I had some high hopes for 2018. By trading away two young starters (Sammy Watkins and Ronald Darby) and failing to find a place for another young talent (Reggie Ragland), I'm afraid we pushed the rebuild process back another season. Frustrate the older players (Kyle Williams, LeSean McCoy, Ritchie Incognito) into leaving and you are setting yourself back even farther.

 

This year is a wash. My guess is 3-5 wins at max. Assuming Beane does a really good job with draft picks and free agency, I think we could make a jump back into the 6-8 win area in 2018 and hopefully get into the playoffs by 2019. But that's only if Beane does a good job. Does this fanbase have the patience for a project like that? Does the owner?

Edited August 30, 2017 by mjt328

[iinii]

Here is the thing, I don't think McDermott or Beane care what the locker room thinks about what they are doing. So this players point means nothing.

 

They are in the process of turning over this roster already and in two years the vast majority of this roster won't be here. I mean look at all the possibilities

 

Tyrod Taylor-def gone

Shady McCoy-good chance he's gone in two years

Charles Clay- above average chance

Richie Incognito- prob gone

Jordan Mills-gone

Kyle Williams-gone

Lo Alexander-gone

Ramon Humber-non starter or gone

 

This team will be remade for good or bad and most of the locker room they are supposedly upsetting won't be here so the point is really mute

You forgot Dareus

[Boatdrinks]

Wade Son of Bum said it: if you can't use talented players in your scheme, maybe it's your scheme that's the problem. And it seems fairly apparent that McWrestler is very focused on scheme.

That's a great line from Wade. I think it was Bum who had a saying about what makes a great Coach - He can take yur'n and beat his'n then take his'n and beat yur'n. Good stuff

[KermitMcDermott]

Just spoke in person with a former Bill from our glory days (not giving his name-sorry).

 

[PolishDave]

 

In my time observing NFL "rebuilding" projects, I've noticed that a GM can address about one-fourth of a team per year (using both the draft and free agency). This comes to about 5-6 starters and about 7-8 backups.

 

How long a rebuilding project takes is dependent on how many pieces are already in place when the GM arrives, and how effective that GM is in drafting, signing and re-signing good players. A strong team with most of the pieces in place may only take 1 season to turn around. A team completely devoid of talent like the Cleveland Browns or San Francisco 49ers may take 3-4 seasons.

 

When a coach brings in a new scheme, certain players don't fit and the rebuilding process takes longer. This is one of the main reasons the Bills have been spinning their wheels between 6-9 wins almost every season for the last decade. This cannot be understated. In my personal opinion (and I know that I'm not alone on this board), the Bills have been about a year away from playoff contention almost every offseason. With continuity, a strong draft and solid free agent pickups, we could easily bump the win total to double-digits. But then we flip the scheme and reset the process by at least another year.

 

By hiring Sean McDermott (and flipping back to a 4-3 defense), I figured this team was going to spin its wheels in the 6-7 win area again in 2017. But I had some high hopes for 2018. By trading away two young starters (Sammy Watkins and Ronald Darby) and failing to find a place for another young talent (Reggie Ragland), I'm afraid we pushed the rebuild process back another season. Frustrate the older players (Kyle Williams, LeSean McCoy, Ritchie Incognito) into leaving and you are setting yourself back even farther.

 

This year is a wash. My guess is 3-5 wins at max. Assuming Beane does a really good job with draft picks and free agency, I think we could make a jump back into the 6-8 win area in 2018 and hopefully get into the playoffs by 2019. But that's only if Beane does a good job. Does this fanbase have the patience for a project like that? Does the owner?

 

Good post

 

As far as the patience part goes -

 

It depends on how well the team plays this year and next year.

 

If they win 4 games or less this year, I expect about 1/2 of the fan base to crumble already. If they get 5-8 wins - most fans will say - okay let's keep going. If they miraculously got 9-10 wins a lot of fans will be arguing that this could have been the year if they hadn't traded away talent early this year but the coach will look competent with a good record.

 

If they get 4 wins or less this year, then fan patience obviously gets shorter with this regime and makes next year a "must" improve year or else - probably with somewhere around 1/2 the fan base I would guess.

 

As far as the Pegulas go - who knows? You would have thought they might have been more patient with one of the last two coaches - but they weren't.

[Gugny]

 

Was this pessimism as prevalent before the Sammy trade? I know it wasn't for me. That trade cracked my optimism completely - same as it would have it Sammy would have torn an ACL and been out for the season.

 

I was really looking forward to the offense taking another step forward this year hopefully. And with an improved run defense, this team would be respectable. Now my intuition (whether right or wrong) tells me that the offense will most likely take a big step backwards and as a result the entire team will take a big step backward. I am guessing other people might feel that way too..

 

For me, personally, the day they re-did Tyrod's contract was the day I said the tank was in. Every move since has only proven it. My pessimism is odd, though ... I've never felt more certain that the Bills are a 3-4 win team; yet I've also never been more excited about the future of the team. I am a Beane believer and I think we're two years away from being a force in the AFC.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

For me, personally, the day they re-did Tyrod's contract was the day I said the tank was in. Every move since has only proven it. My pessimism is odd, though ... I've never felt more certain that the Bills are a 3-4 win team; yet I've also never been more excited about the future of the team. I am a Beane believer and I think we're two years away from being a force in the AFC.

 

If that's true, then why did they re-sign Alexander, talk Kyle into coming back, and sign Boldin? I see mixed messages.

[Gugny]

 

If that's true, then why did they re-sign Alexander, talk Kyle into coming back, and sign Boldin? I see mixed messages.

 

I also see mixed messages, but the overall message is clear (to me). Who they've kept/gotten isn't even close to who they've let go, in my opinion. They've secured a weaker passing game that was last in the league a year ago and they've secured a weaker defense, which was atrocious a year ago.

[mjt328]

 

Good post

 

As far as the patience part goes -

 

It depends on how well the team plays this year and next year.

 

If they win 4 games or less this year, I expect about 1/2 of the fan base to crumble already. If they get 5-8 wins - most fans will say - okay let's keep going. If they miraculously got 9-10 wins a lot of fans will be arguing that this could have been the year if they hadn't traded away talent early this year but the coach will look competent with a good record.

 

If they get 4 wins or less this year, then fan patience obviously gets shorter with this regime and makes next year a "must" improve year or else - probably with somewhere around 1/2 the fan base I would guess.

 

As far as the Pegulas go - who knows? You would have thought they might have been more patient with one of the last two coaches - but they weren't.

 

Exactly. And that's why I'm rarely in favor of a complete and total roster overhaul.

 

By the time Beane gets this team back (just to where Whaley had them), it's going to be at least 2-3 seasons into the rebuild. And even the fans supporting all these moves now will start calling for a change at the top.

[Perry Turtle]

While I certainly respect the opinions of former players it remains just that, his opinion. Doesn't make it right or a fact. The glory day Bills played under Marv who ran a pretty loose ship. That "treat them like men" approach also has its drawbacks and there are a lot of people (including me) who think that if Marv had been a little more disciplined the Bills may have actually won one of those four Super Bowls. To look at it another way, do you think either of the "Bills" Belichick or Parcells would have done what that player suggested? How about Jimmy Johnson? Lots of ways to win, I am giving McDermott and Co. the benefit of the doubt for now.

Seriously? The Bills were disciplined enough to win over 50 games during the SB years but they lost 4 because of a lack of discipline?

 

And they lost to the Cowboys because Dallas was more disciplined? Charles Haley and Mike Irvin would make this board's collective head spin off its shoulders if they were Buffalo Bills.

 

Bill Parcells was Lawrence Taylor's biggest enabler. And Bill Billichick has put up with Gronkowski's antics and injuries for years. Do you really believe that Bilichick didn't know Aaron Hernandez was a scumbag when he drafted him?

 

The only thing that Johnson, Parcells, and Belichick care about is how a player performs on the field. They don't care if the guy is a great citizen, or shows up on on time for stretching sessions, or tells the media that he needs more the ball more.

 

These guys are great coaches because they know how to maximize the talent on their rosters to win games. It has nothing to do with culture, or process, or adherence to scheme.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Perry Turtle

[DirtDart]

I feel bad for you all that actually spend money on this product.

I don't disbelieve the OP's story or that a former player might think that.

 

But at the same time I don't see how a former player (who isn't dealing with McD any more than we are), knows something we don't. Being his opinion is fine, but I just don't value anybodys opinion on the matter and am willing to let it play out.

 

That's from someone who is very skeptical about the return we have gotten from recent trades (myself). Fact is, we don't know how it will turn out, but I respect the honest attempt at a legitimate rebuild. Too many half assed, win-kinda-now-but-still-rebuild years and need a real foundation if we want a build something big. Overzealous, cap cuffing, "big splash" signings are a thing of the past and that is refreshing. I am going to "trust the process", but I might mumble and groan along the way.

I agree, good post. All we can do is let it play out. It is clear they have a plan. We have to give it time to really judge the end product.

[snamsnoops]

Hells yeah!

Let's get us some Dwight Drane as well. Maybe he's hanging with Marvcus Patton.

Mitch Frerotte heard this from Chris Mohr

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Levy was out coached in that all four SBs.

 

FIFY

Scheme? Switching back to an attacking 4-3 is a dramatic ill advised scheme change?

 

Where did anyone say anything about a dramatic ill advised scheme change?

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

 

FIFY

 

Where did anyone say anything about a dramatic ill advised scheme change?

 

 

 

They were the better team in SB XXV. In the other three vs. WAS and DAL they were outclassed.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

They were the better team in SB XXV. In the other three vs. WAS and DAL they were outclassed.

Kelly's ego cost them SB XXV

[26CornerBlitz]

Kelly's ego cost them SB XXV

 

I agree. Should have run the ball down the Giants throats.

[SoTier]

Not surprising. Anyone with half a brain can see these guys are clueless. Luckily they found an ownership group as dumb as them.

 

Same old same old at OBD

 

Agreed. I was hopeful early on, but the more I see of the new regime, the more I'm convinced they're as bad as the worst of the previous regimes, ie, the Brandon-Levy-Jauron triumvirate. The names change but the organization's lack of interest in winning football games remains the same.