Go on record regarding the trades

[Reed83HOF]

I say no.

 

To evaluate the Watkins trade, I think back to the baffling decision to not exercise his option. If Watkins had his 5th year on his deal, we would've gotten more for him, as we would've been trading a longer rental.

 

The Bills tanked Watkins' value by not exercising it. Then sold low. Idiotic. I personally thought he was an idiot as a person, but a talented idiot. He was arguably our youngest, best player. The exact player you keep in a rebuild, not sell low to the highest bidder.

 

Darby on the other hand is different. Still say no, but if he was not having a good camp, couldn't do much in zones, I get it. As a superb athlete 1 year removed from a great year, I still say no, but I get it.

 

One of the best posts I have ever read on this board...

[Magox]

Ditching your most talented player for a horrible corner does not make you "a little worse". The pick wont arrive for a year.

 

No,

 

We have gained two durable and productive starters in Boldin and Matthews and lost one very dynamic and often injured receiver in Watkins. Odds are that you would get better bang for your buck with these two than what you will with Watkins.

 

Like I said, we are marginally worse off for 2017 and potentially much better off for 2018.

 

Good trade

[Buffalo Barbarian]

2 firsts, 2 seconds, 2 thirds = 1 franchise QB, yes please.

[KD in CA]

Yup.

 

It's all just rearranging deck chairs until you find a QB. The Bills finally understand that nothing and nobody else matters.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

Can I ask why people are disappointed in Jordan Matthews, I get it that he doesn't have the explosive speed of Watkins but if I recall correctly he had his best season in Chip Kelly's offense as the #1 WR where he had 85 catches, 997 yards and 8 TD with Sam Bradford throwing to him. Sammy Watkins best season to date was 60 catches, 1,047 yards and 9 TD, I don't know I'm trying to see the downside here and i just don't, there is no reason he can't be a productive #1 WR like he was on that Chip Kelly team.

[KD in CA]

Ditching your most talented player for a horrible corner does not make you "a little worse". The pick wont arrive for a year.

 

Wait, what? They traded McCoy too???

[SinceThe70s]

I voted a big fat NO!

 

The object of building a successful team is to acquire talents like Sammy Watkins. This deal smells and I'm really wondering what the hell is going on.

 

I'm with you. Great teams need great players. But I thought the Bills did the right thing by hedging their bets and not picking up the option. I assumed that was due to injury concerns and made sense to me. If Sammy had a big year and was injury free, we could tag/sign him.

 

My only hope...and this is not intended as ill will towards Sammy...even though it is...is that Sammy does not become the monster we all expected he would be.

[Boatdrinks]

No,

 

We have gained two durable and productive starters in Boldin and Matthews and lost one very dynamic and often injured receiver in Watkins. Odds are that you would get better bang for your buck with these two than what you will with Watkins.

 

Like I said, we are marginally worse off for 2017 and potentially much better off for 2018.

 

Good trade

Boldin was not part of any trade. He was already signed. They garnered a measley 2nd round pick and a throw in CB for Watkins, who seems to be healthy again. Explain how that makes the Bills potentially much better off for 2018.

[4merper4mer]

Wait, what? They traded McCoy too???

 

Whatever dude. Splitting heirs on that one. Trading your second most talented player for a crappy corner sound better? And to put ourselves in position for what? Some snot nose kid from USC that had three good games? Last guy like that is famous for "accidentally" banging underage girls and butt fumbles. Whoopie do.

[Stank_Nasty]

i don't have issues with people liking the trade..... but I find it absolutely absurd that people are fooling themselves into thinking there isn't any drop off in the immediate future.

 

Matthews/gaines = Watkins/darby??? you gotta be freaking kidding me. open your freaking eyes.

[4merper4mer]

Boldin was not part of any trade. He was already signed. They garnered a measley 2nd round pick and a throw in CB for Watkins, who seems to be healthy again. Explain how that makes the Bills potentially much better off for 2018.

We get the next Connor Cook!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[eball]

Really good stuff here JMC.

 

I agree -- that is solid analysis and questioning of the logistics behind the trade. I haven't voted because I'm still undecided.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

How many yards per game has Watkins put up in the playoffs? Oops

great contribution

[Hurricane Marv]

Can I ask why people are disappointed in Jordan Matthews, I get it that he doesn't have the explosive speed of Watkins but if I recall correctly he had his best season in Chip Kelly's offense as the #1 WR where he had 85 catches, 997 yards and 8 TD with Sam Bradford throwing to him. Sammy Watkins best season to date was 60 catches, 1,047 yards and 9 TD, I don't know I'm trying to see the downside here and i just don't, there is no reason he can't be a productive #1 WR like he was on that Chip Kelly team.

 

He's a good player he just doesn't have anything close to the talent of Sammy. He's doesn't have a lot of burst, he had some terrible drops last year, and he was honestly looking to be the odd man out in Philly this year. He's a possession receiver, a good #2, not a legitimate #1 elite talent. I may get killed by this for people who are far more knowledgeable than I am but to me he's Golden Tate Lite. People should not assume that we swapped a #1 for another #1 who's just a little bit worse than our #1. We swapped a #1 for a solid #2.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Hurricane Marv

[Magox]

Boldin was not part of any trade. He was already signed. They garnered a measley 2nd round pick and a throw in CB for Watkins, who seems to be healthy again. Explain how that makes the Bills potentially much better off for 2018.

 

Try to keep up, the argument was in regards to the Bills "throwing in the towel" for 2017, not on the specific trade.

 

And in regards to making the Bills "potentially" better for 2018, it provides us more ammunition to get a franchise QB.

[4merper4mer]

Try to keep up, the argument was in regards to the Bills "throwing in the towel" for 2017, not on the specific trade.

 

And in regards to making the Bills "potentially" better for 2018, it provides us more ammunition to get a franchise QB.

What other good players can we give up for bad players and not be throwing in the towel? Shady for Minnesota's fourth string TE and a 3rd?

[Adam]

2 firsts, 2 seconds, 2 thirds = 1 franchise QB, yes please.

Bingo

[Doc]

My take is that when they declined the fifth year option on Sammy it was over between the two. He was going to be gone at the end of the season so they got something for him. Furthermore, and this is probably a major part of it, I remember going to the Saturday training camp practice after it had just opened and seeing him working on the sidelines with a trainer/coach and I thought "this guy still hasn't healed." I wish that Sammy had panned out the way we had hoped when they traded two first round picks for him, but it didn't work out that way. Time will tell what becomes of him and I wish him well, but I wish the Bills better. I hope the Jordan Matthews can give the same production Sammy gave last year.

 

As for Darby, I thought it was a huge red flag that he had such a poor 2016 after looking so good in 2015 in the exact same defense. I'll trust McD and company on this one until proven otherwise and if games can perform better than Derby did last year, it will be an upgrade.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

i don't have issues with people liking the trade..... but I find it absolutely absurd that people are fooling themselves into thinking there isn't any drop off in the immediate future.

 

Matthews/gaines = Watkins/darby??? you gotta be freaking kidding me. open your freaking eyes.

 

I'm not trying to argue on this matter but when I hear drop off it baffles me since Sammy Watkins last year had 28 catches, 430 yards and 2 TD, Matthews had 73 catches, 804 yards and 3 TD, the year before is quite similar also. I think fans are basing Sammy Watkins production on what he's supposed to be rather than what he is right now. I can honestly say with Darby I was wondering how this regime viewed him since he'd be in a different scheme fit and I got my answer when he was traded. I know nothing about Gaines who we picked up but i do know Darby was benched last year for spotty play, I also know how talented he was as a rookie so we'll see there what Gaines has to offer, he's obviously a better scheme fit if he is who they wanted and should replace Darby on the depth chart, all I know is that I just saw an interview with Wade Phillips praising Gaines and that he was vying for the starter role in preseason so that's very encouraging to me, Just my opinions.

[Reed83HOF]

2 firsts, 2 seconds, 2 thirds = 1 franchise QB, yes please.

 

Better hope we can trade up with a team who doesn't need a QB that for some reason sucked this year. No team that needs a franchise guy will trade with you if any of these QBs are good...

[Adam]

 

I'm not trying to argue on this matter but when I hear drop off it baffles me since Sammy Watkins last year had 28 catches, 430 yards and 2 TD, Matthews had 73 catches, 804 yards and 3 TD, the year before is quite similar also. I think fans are basing Sammy Watkins production on what he's supposed to be rather than what he is right now. I can honestly say with Darby I was wondering how this regime viewed him since he'd be in a different scheme fit and I got my answer when he was traded. I know nothing about Gaines who we picked up but i do know Darby was benched last year for spotty play, I also know how talented he was as a rookie so we'll see there what Gaines has to offer, he's obviously a better scheme fit if he is who they wanted and should replace Darby on the depth chart, all I know is that I just saw an interview with Wade Phillips praising Gaines and that he was vying for the starter role in preseason so that's very encouraging to me, Just my opinions.

The guys we picked up in trade will fit in nicely with the core we draft in April. We're finally getting it right after about two decades

[Magox]

What other good players can we give up for bad players and not be throwing in the towel? Shady for Minnesota's fourth string TE and a 3rd?

 

Bad post

[BringBackOrton]

 

Well, that's how organizations are built, they look into the future. McD/Beane were hired to install their vision of what they believe the team should look like. Clearly they didn't value Whaley's picks and they didn't want to gamble on an often-injured player who would have cost a lot more than what they were willing to pay. I have no problem with what they did, I actually think it makes a lot of sense.

 

Are they better off for 2017, most likely not (unless of course Watkins gets injured again). But with 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders (one of them most likely almost a first rounder) and either 2-3 third rounders and 2 fourth rounders, they get to build this team from the ground up the way they see fit.

 

I'm tired of mediocrity, and I'm willing to allow these guys who have proven to have won before a chance to build this team.

If you agree they are worse off in 2017, you essentially agree they threw in the towel to some extent.

[Magox]

If you agree they are worse off in 2017, you essentially agree they threw in the towel to some extent.

 

Only if you live in a black or white world.

[Boatdrinks]

Bad post

Why? Seems spot on

[KD in CA]

Whatever dude. Splitting heirs on that one. Trading your second most talented player for a crappy corner sound better? And to put ourselves in position for what? Some snot nose kid from USC that had three good games? Last guy like that is famous for "accidentally" banging underage girls and butt fumbles. Whoopie do.

 

Just having a little fun with you and the rest of the crowd who keep repeating the 'talent' line. Problem is, at some point you have to stop making excuses and reconcile the talent with the production. And that's where Watkins falls short.

[WideRightRevenge]

Build for the future ... Sammy was gone and we weren't going to pay him and got a 2nd from what is going to be a crappy LA team .. so hopefully High 2nd rounder .... Darby for Matthews .. I'll take that.

 

Doug Whaley's worst move up in the draft has been kicked to the curb .... remember we could of had OBJ and not lost a first rounder the next year.

[Magox]

Why? Seems spot on

 

Not surprising

[BringBackOrton]

 

Only if you live in a black or white world.

That's why I said, "to some extent."

 

Consciously making the 2017 Bills worse off is an admission they aren't going anywhere soon. At least until 2018-2019. When we have so many short term players on the roster that are key contributors like, Shady, TT, Kyle, you are giving up on them. You are saying they aren't good enough and we're going to wait for the future.

 

That's throwing in the towel on the year. To some extent.

[NoSaint]

 

Only if you live in a black or white world.

How likely did you think a 2017 playoff birth was yesterday?

 

How likely tonight?

[par73]

At first, I was just shocked. Then, I thought, "Well another lost year here-- nothing new." Finally, I came to see it the way McDermott and Beane did, and with that, came acceptance. My biggest fear is the Bills will again be a "middling' team-- with playoffs just a pipe dream (probably the same without the trade). They do have a great draft stockpile, but no guarantee they will get a QB they like. They have put all their eggs in the 2018 draft basket (Darnold, for example, may not come out. Some QB's' stock will go down).

Bottom line though is, how long are we looking at? How many years will this slow rebuild take to pay off, if at all?

[Magox]

How likely did you think a 2017 playoff birth was yesterday?

 

How likely tonight?

 

I would have said before the Watkins trade, 35%.

 

Now, I'd say 25%.

That's why I said, "to some extent."

 

Consciously making the 2017 Bills worse off is an admission they aren't going anywhere soon. At least until 2018-2019. When we have so many short term players on the roster that are key contributors like, Shady, TT, Kyle, you are giving up on them. You are saying they aren't good enough and we're going to wait for the future.

 

That's throwing in the towel on the year. To some extent.

 

This has been a circular argument of semantics.

 

There are a lot of shades of grey in between black and white, and this trade resides somewhere in between.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Magox

[QCity]

We were a 7-win team yesterday. We are a 7-win team right now. The hysterics are entertaining though.

[Alphadawg7]

Sammy is a rare talent...we just gave up on a young rare player for a future 2nd round pick and marginal DB. Not liking it. We had nothing to lose letting Sammy play this year, there was no reason to do this trade IMO.

 

And the type of injury he had is one that is hard to recover from and takes time because there isn't much you can do. And his lingered because they pressed to early last year between him and the staff. But once a full recovery is done, its almost always stronger than it was before it was injured. So, this really seemed like an injury he's fully past now, and a healthy Sammy is a top 10 WR in the NFL, and the potential to be ELITE. With him being so young, just don't think we got back enough value to make this move.

 

I mean, most of you people want to cut a recent 2nd rounder before he has ever played a single snap in the NFL in Ragland, yet now you champion a 2nd rounder next year like its the holy grail. Sammy is special, and the odds of a 2nd round pick producing a player of his talent level are low. When you are 17 years from your last playoff appearance, you should gamble on talent, not an unknown draft pick IMO. And to me Sammy was a low risk gamble now that his foot injury was gone and declined his option so were not tied to him long term if it did have injury issues again.

[Deranged Rhino]

I like the Mathews for Darby deal - dislike the Sammy deal (I realize they're connected though).

 

They have to get the QB pick right in 2018... that's the only way I see this ending up being a win in the trade department. Even then, I sure would have liked to have given the 1st round Rook a star WR to throw the ball to. Might have helped speed up his development, but what do I know...

[rockpile]

I vote "yes" if the trades were motivated by a desire to get better THIS year as well as to get more picks NEXT year.

I refuse to accept the idea that they are intentionally throwing in the towel after one preseason game.

 

So my vote is "conditional".

 

I admit I was shocked when I first heard this news. I love Watkins but I still worry about his injury.

 

I am now back in my insulated position of having no expectations for the season beyond I expect them to play 16 games.

Being a fan with no expectations is like running my PC in safe mode. Not as much fun, but less chance of a heart attack.

Edited August 12, 2017 by rockpile

[BringBackOrton]

 

I would have said before the Watkins trade, 35%.

 

Now, I'd say 25%.

 

This has been a circular argument of semantics.

 

There are a lot of shades of grey in between black and white, and this trade resides somewhere in between.

That wasn't a response.

 

You agree that the 2017 is worse off now, correct? That we are undergoing some short term pain for long term gain, yes? Does that indicate they have high hopes for this group in the short-term?

[Adam]

Sammy is a rare talent...we just gave up on a young rare player for a future 2nd round pick and marginal DB. Not liking it. We had nothing to lose letting Sammy play this year, there was no reason to do this trade IMO.

 

And the type of injury he had is one that is hard to recover from and takes time because there isn't much you can do. And his lingered because they pressed to early last year between him and the staff. But once a full recovery is done, its almost always stronger than it was before it was injured. So, this really seemed like an injury he's fully past now, and a healthy Sammy is a top 10 WR in the NFL, and the potential to be ELITE. With him being so young, just don't think we got back enough value to make this move.

 

I mean, most of you people want to cut a recent 2nd rounder before he has ever played a single snap in the NFL in Ragland, yet now you champion a 2nd rounder next year like its the holy grail. Sammy is special, and the odds of a 2nd round pick producing a player of his talent level are low. When you are 17 years from your last playoff appearance, you should gamble on talent, not an unknown draft pick IMO. And to me Sammy was a low risk gamble now that his foot injury was gone and declined his option so were not tied to him long term if it did have injury issues again.

Is he as rare as Herschel Walker?

[WideRightRevenge]

The bottom line is McD and Beane are purging .... I liked what I saw from Peterman last night against 3rd stringers granted .. but scoring drive on his first series .. certainly more than Yates showed and if Taiwan Jones catches a pass on 4th down .. we are a few yards out from the tying score ... if we're truly rebuilding ... let's not kid ourselves with Tyrod ... let Peterman go

[bisonbrigade]

The pain of watching the putrid play in 2017 hopefully will give way to a Franchise QB in 2018. Make no mistake this year Bills will be unwatchable. The Purge, Gilmore, Gillislee, Watkins, Darby, Woods and others just began.