There has not been a QB worth signing/drafting since 2013

[bananathumb]

Nothing wrong with EJ or Kyle O, but when you have a guy is diapers drawing up plays, no QB will succeed.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

OG is still a work in progress, tight end may be coming around. They seem to be looking better. QB is a tough one the last two years. Stanton might have been a decent pickup. Franchise, Bortels is the only one standing out to me. So which QB in the next draft makes any sense in the second round or later? ?

 

Use to be 3 years on the bench learning how to deal with the defenses. Does EJ still have a chance?

 

P.S. Manzel is one hit away from RGIII territory and given the what the Bills did to him in 1 quarter, if they had a full game he might not be playing ever again.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

You would think that with the league being more passing oriented that the QBs coming out of college would be able to adapt to the pro game better.

But so far, the ratio of QB draft hits to misses has remained about the same.

 

The only difference that I see at this point is in the amount of hype surrounding them.

 

It would definitely be interesting to look at the list of QBs drafted in, say, the last four years and see how many are still playing.

 

I just don't think college offenses are all that fancy. Yes they are passing a bunch but many of these system QBs have few or no reads. The target is the target no matter the defense as defined by the play.

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

I think the point is this: 2012 was a great QB draft, one of the best since the famous Marino-Kelly-Elway 1983 class. 2013 will likely go down as one of the worst QB classes ever. Even EJ at 16 was a big reach. 2014? We saw more desperate reachers out there with Bortles going way too high and even Manziel sneaking into the first round. In retrospect obviously 20+ teams wish they'd jumped on the Russell Wilson or even Nick Foles bandwagon. We were a year late thanks to the grand Fitz illusion; so were a whole lot of other teams.

[cantankerous]

How was that gonna happen when Carr was already off the board?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Ahhh good point. I forgot he was taken 7-8 spots before Kujo.

I have no idea who I'd rather have between an OT that cannot get on the field and a QB that cannot win a game in the NFL. I do know that nothing about Carr, his 1-11 record as a starter, his 0-point effort yesterday, his 30th ranked QBR, or his 74.4 passer rating (which places him at 32nd, firmly behind Kirk Cousins and Drew Stanton) makes me wish the Bills had traded up to the No. 34 pick to get him.

 

What's your take that makes you say he'd be worth doing so? Oh, and please include what compensation you'd have offered to make such a move. Or are you trolling just to troll?

 

I forgot Carr was taken before the Bills were on the clock. Just because I said I'd rather have Carr over Kujo doesn't mean I'm a troll. Dick.

[thebandit27]

I forgot Carr was taken before the Bills were on the clock. Just because I said I'd rather have Carr over Kujo doesn't mean I'm a troll. Dick.

 

Nice job with the name-calling! It appears that you forgot what you said, as my "are you trolling just to troll?" was a response to this:

 

He looks like a real QB though. He's on a horrible team. I'd take him over EJ in a heartbeat.

 

Are you seriously telling me you'd rather have Kouandjio over Carr? Are you arguing just to argue?

 

So perhaps next time take a pill and relax. You brought a silly point to the table and were questioned about it. You shot back with animosity and received a response in-kind.

[cantankerous]

It

Nice job with the name-calling! It appears that you forgot what you said, as my "are you trolling just to troll?" was a response to this:

 

 

 

So perhaps next time take a pill and relax. You brought a silly point to the table and were questioned about it. You shot back with animosity and received a response in-kind.

 

It appears you need a little help with that stick you have rammed up your as5. That must be miserable.

 

If you want to call it silly that I forgot the draft order, okay. As far as me wishing the Bills had Carr over Kouandjio? Hardly.

[Captain Hindsight]

I think the point is this: 2012 was a great QB draft, one of the best since the famous Marino-Kelly-Elway 1983 class. 2013 will likely go down as one of the worst QB classes ever. Even EJ at 16 was a big reach. 2014? We saw more desperate reachers out there with Bortles going way too high and even Manziel sneaking into the first round. In retrospect obviously 20+ teams wish they'd jumped on the Russell Wilson or even Nick Foles bandwagon. We were a year late thanks to the grand Fitz illusion; so were a whole lot of other teams.

2007 was pretty awful

 

Russel

Quinn

Kolb

Captain Checkdown

 

2002 was pretty disappointing as well

Carr

Harrington

Ramsey

[thebandit27]

It

 

 

It appears you need a little help with that stick you have rammed up your as5. That must be miserable.

 

If you want to call it silly that I forgot the draft order, okay. As far as me wishing the Bills had Carr over Kouandjio? Hardly.

 

The point is completely irrelevant. I'd rather have Andrew Luck than T.J. Graham...that is totally meaningless because I couldn't get Luck with Graham's pick. What is the point of even stating it? It's silly IMO.

 

Although I'm sure you're quite good at reading people based on a single message board exchange, I'm sure you'll be delighted to find out that I'm quite the happy person. I can say, with zero ego, that I have an awesome life. I hope you do as well!

[Punching Bag]

I say there is no QB that was available in the last two drafts our available in free agency that would meet the standard of play we are demanding at QB. Sure there are plenty of QBs that you might think are good, or who might be good eventually. But there is no QB in the last two years who was available to Whaley that is franchise caliber.

 

What! You are not Johnny Football balls tongue washer like Bucky Gleason?

[cantankerous]

The point is completely irrelevant. I'd rather have Andrew Luck than T.J. Graham...that is totally meaningless because I couldn't get Luck with Graham's pick. What is the point of even stating it? It's silly IMO.

 

Although I'm sure you're quite good at reading people based on a single message board exchange, I'm sure you'll be delighted to find out that I'm quite the happy person. I can say, with zero ego, that I have an awesome life. I hope you do as well!

 

Fair enough. We aren't talking about 90 draft spots away though, those 2 players were drafted 7 picks apart. I forgot Carr went 34th and Kouandjio went 41st...That's why I said I'd rather have him. Oops, my mistake. You came across as dickish, hence my response. Anyways, I'm not here to fight with fellow Bills' fans.

 

Go Bills.

[BillsVet]

Yes, that big goose egg they put up in St. Louis yesterday--lead by Carr's 2 INT, 0 TD performance--looks very inviting, as does the 1-11 record Carr boasts despite playing behind one of the league's best pass-protecting OLs.

 

One game in a QB's rookie season predicts a career? On the road playing a decent defense that had stopped Peyton Manning 2 weeks before? Sure dude.

 

Point is, at QB the Bills either A) don't invest in good options or B) don't invest at all. This is a hallmark of the organization going back years. The only time in recent memory before Orton they sought a decent backup veteran option was Fitzpatrick, who they stated from the get-go was only a backup and not a threat to Trenative. We know how that went.

 

Buddy Nix set this organization, i.e. Whaley, up for failure when he stubbornly refused to draft someone in 2011 or 2012 (not much was available in 2010). And so Whaley was left to pick from a bad lot in 2013, which gets us to Orton after Manuel failed.

Edited December 1, 2014 by BillsVet

[Punching Bag]

The big question about Whaley is what hand did he truly have in hiring this abomination of a coach.

Maybe it is none, just your perception and ability to be a pro coach evaluator.

[thebandit27]

One game in a QB's rookie season predicts a career? On the road playing a decent defense that had stopped Peyton Manning 2 weeks before? Sure dude.

 

Point is, at QB the Bills either A) don't invest in good options or B) don't invest at all. This is a hallmark of the organization going back years. The only time in recent memory before Orton they sought a decent backup veteran option was Fitzpatrick, who they stated from the get-go was only a backup and not a threat to Trenative. We know how that went.

 

Buddy Nix set this organization, i.e. Whaley, up for failure when he stubbornly refused to draft someone in 2011 or 2012 (not much was available in 2010). And so Whaley was left to pick from a bad lot in 2013, which gets us to Orton after Manuel failed.

 

I agree that more resources should be invested in the position, and never said otherwise. I found the comment to be misplaced (for reasons elaborated upon in further posts).

[BuffaloBill]

You would think that with the league being more passing oriented that the QBs coming out of college would be able to adapt to the pro game better.

But so far, the ratio of QB draft hits to misses has remained about the same.

 

The only difference that I see at this point is in the amount of hype surrounding them.

 

It would definitely be interesting to look at the list of QBs drafted in, say, the last four years and see how many are still playing.

 

I remain amazed at the fact that so few QB's from college can transition to the pro game. For some time now I have advocated the following:

- every NFL team should have to carry one QB prospect on their PS

-here is one that is out there but maybe not - have a single round in the draft where every team is required to select a QB prospect who may fill the slot above - I know this is a crazy idea but what the heck just throwing it out there.

[Punching Bag]

Then based on your statements Eli did not win those Superbowls. It was a combination of good defense that limited Brady and his receivers along with some timely / lucky throws to receivers who are already out of league or on their way out. Its just like saying Trent Dilfer won Superbowls.

 

Teams win (or lose) Superbowls. Jim Kelly did not lose the Superbowls, the Bills did.

Anyone trying to make it sound otherwise has a poorly thought out opinion trying to sell like Sullivan and Bucky Gleason.

[Punching Bag]

Nothing wrong with EJ or Kyle O, but when you have a guy is diapers drawing up plays, no QB will succeed.

 

Really when did you start drawing up plays?

How well do your adult diapers fit and how often does your attendant need to change them?

 

It is ridiculous to use terms such as diapers on coaches whether you like them or not. That is the type of stuff used by WGR and Buffalo News use to try to draw web hits.

Just because as a _FAN_ you do not like

[bschmoove]

Kolb was always the plan.

EJ was not supposed to start last year or even this year if Kolb was doing what Orton is now.

We know this.

[JohnC]

The Bills took a chance on getting a generational talent, which was the consensus on SW throughout the scouting community. He and Clowney were both legit #1 overall prospects in the draft. Carr doesn't even register on that talent scale.

 

I get the point about finding your QB. But it's not a linear process and when there are far more talented players available vs. a lower rated QB prospect, it makes sense to select the blue chip prospect. Perfectly understandable.

 

I don't want to have this discussion for the umpteenth time, but the Bills have invested high picks in QBs since Kelly retired. They swung for the fences and missed on guys that were as good or better than the Daltons and Kaepernicks of the league, neither of whom I feel is the answer, either. Better than what we have now? Yes. But they are at their ceilings in my opinion. Especially Kaep, who still has much to learn about operating from the pocket.

 

Russel Wilson is the exception to the rule. As evidenced by being passed over 74 times before being selected. NOBODY was right about him. Nobody. And I can't credit any retrospective argument to the contrary.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

On this issue I am going to respectfully disagree with you. You and I are in accord on Watkins's talent level. I don't consider him a generational type receiver but I do consider him a talent that is going to be ranked in the top four or five players in most drafts. With a top tier qb throwing to him he would be a scintillating performer. But even after acknowledging his special abilities and his much higher ranking compared to Carr I would still take a qb who I believe could be our long term franchise qb.

 

Would I have taken Carr at the draft position the Bills were at (prior to the trade up)? A resolute no. But trading down, getting another pick or so, and then taking Carr at a lower first round position would have been a good move for this franchise.

 

It''s my opinion it doesn't matter how special a receiver Watkins is or is going to be if he is playing on a team that doesn't have a qualilty qb. I'm not shooting for the moon and demanding an elite qb, which there are very few available. The bottom line is that I would be very comfortable (delighted) in giving up the much higher rated receiver in the draft for the lower rated qb if that qb turned out to be the long-term franchise qb.

 

Let me respond to your Dalton and Kaepernick assessments. In my view Dalton is simply a solid qb at best. I'll gladly accept that judgment and still want him. Although he is not an elite qb, and never will be, he is a legitimate franchise qb. If he was our starter the Bills would be in the playoffs this year. Kaepernick is a raw physical talent who still has a lot to learn. Again, I would be more than pleased to have him as our starter. There is still a lot for him to learn about playing the position but there is plenty of raw material to work with.

 

As you well know until a quality franchise qb is identified the Bills are not going to be a serious team. Our defense this year is superlative. It's talents are wasted. When the playoffs start the defenders will be watching the games from their respective couches because of the limitations of their qbs taking the snaps.

Edited December 1, 2014 by JohnC

[maddenboy]

Should have traded for Alex Smith last year and if they liked EJ, drafted him anyway.

 

Orton > Alex Smith.

 

Me myself me, I prefer a QB who actually throws downfield and takes a chance once in a while.

 

I'm looking for the next Jim Kelly. Not the next Trent Dilfer.

[finn]

Define "available." Whaley gave up the farm for a wide receiver. He could have done the same for Bortles, who I think will be terrific.

[machine gun kelly]

Talk to you guys in the off season on all topics related to free agency and drafts. We still can chat about so many points like looking at final schedules for 7-5 and above teams. We're not the only one that has a tough schedule. Go look at the chargers.

 

PTR, I don't disagree with you. Nix made the mistakes and also made several very good moves.

[PromoTheRobot]

Define "available." Whaley gave up the farm for a wide receiver. He could have done the same for Bortles, who I think will be terrific.

Ummm, Bortles went at 3. Whaley also contacted every team about trading up. Only Cleveland bit. So I don't know how the Bills trade for Bortles unless they gave up a lot more. Plus how do you know for sure Bortles is going to be that good?

[finn]

"Know for sure" is a pretty high standard for any pick, let alone a quarterback. I just think--guess, believe, based on his overall performance so far--Bortles will be good. My beef with Whaley is that he panicked and picked Manuel, a project at best, a bust at worst, with a first-round pick that could have used for a player (guard, anyone?) or used in a deal for a very high pick the following year (Bortles). You can defend him by saying his job was on the line, but that's hardly a defense. He did not need to choose a qb in that weak class. He should have bided his time.

[K-9]

Define "available." Whaley gave up the farm for a wide receiver. He could have done the same for Bortles, who I think will be terrific.

 

I predict Watkins will be a far better WR than Bortles is a QB in this league. And I don't think it'll be close.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Formerly Allan in MD]

When I look at what Whaley has done I'd say he has missed in three areas from a player perspective, whether it be draft or FA:

 

QB

OG

TE

 

At QB I think the OP's point is well taken. Whaley took a shot at least with EJ. All the pundits had Geno as the top QB that year. Whaley passed on him...good. Could he have waited another year and taken Bortles? Maybe. That would be about it and is far from a sure thing. I don't see FA's out there doing anything.

 

At OG it is hard to tell if he whiffed in the draft, things will take time, or it is simply a meter of poor coaching. Some of this could be on Whaley.

 

I view TE as similar to QB in that we don't know what was really there. He did say he liked Ebron.....meh. I'll take Sammy.

 

Given that there are only 3 positions where questions remain on our roster I would say Whaley deserves a ton of credit. It is too bad that one of the three is QB.

 

The big question about Whaley is what hand did he truly have in hiring this abomination of a coach. Was it Buddy? Was it the purse strings? Was it Whaley? It is like the reverse of that famous quote from Parcells. Whaley can get the best ingredients in the world, but if he hires a chef from Burger King, the restaurant is going to flop.

So cornerback is not a need. Right! Both Gilmore and McKelvin need to be replaced. Neither would be starting on a Bowl bound team. Perhaps Williams is one in-house solution.

[Manther]

 

 

I remain amazed at the fact that so few QB's from college can transition to the pro game. For some time now I have advocated the following:

- every NFL team should have to carry one QB prospect on their PS

-here is one that is out there but maybe not - have a single round in the draft where every team is required to select a QB prospect who may fill the slot above - I know this is a crazy idea but what the heck just throwing it out there.

No

[PromoTheRobot]

"Know for sure" is a pretty high standard for any pick, let alone a quarterback. I just think--guess, believe, based on his overall performance so far--Bortles will be good. My beef with Whaley is that he panicked and picked Manuel, a project at best, a bust at worst, with a first-round pick that could have used for a player (guard, anyone?) or used in a deal for a very high pick the following year (Bortles). You can defend him by saying his job was on the line, but that's hardly a defense. He did not need to choose a qb in that weak class. He should have bided his time.

Well we all know what the reaction would have been if Whaley/Nix didn't draft a QB in 2013 and stuck with Fitz.

 

As for Bortles I think he has looked good at times but he's not franchise quality yet. Which begs the question, would we as a fan base ever be patient enough with any QB to develop?

Edited December 2, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[Manther]

Define "available." Whaley gave up the farm for a wide receiver. He could have done the same for Bortles, who I think will be terrific.

The Jags wanted Bottles bad. We would have had to trade up to #2. That means St. Louis would have wanted to trade back AND we would have had to give up more to get to #2 than #4.

[finn]

Well we all know what the reaction would have been if Whaley/Nix didn't draft a QB in 2013 and stuck with Fitz.

 

As for Bortles I think he has looked good at times but he's not franchise quality yet. Which begs the question, would we as a fan base ever be patient enough with any QB to develop?

 

Do you mean patience for a project QB? Fans were patient with Kelly (who did have two years in the AFL), and i think they would have been patient with Dalton and Tannehill, both of whom have showed a lot more than Manuel. I have a pretty high opinion of Bills fans as a whole; they are pretty knowledgeable. For example, they know the value of a good offensive line, obviously far more than the current management. I'm not sure agree that fans would have reacted badly by keeping Fitz, if only because cutting him meant eating his huge salary for two years. I think cutting him only made Nix and Whaley's original mistake (signing him to a mega-contract) worse, as others have pointed out. Why pay Orton AND Fitz? No, I disagree with PTR. Even excusing him from the Fitz fiasco, I think Whaley has fumbled the QB situation here. And now he has fewer options than ever, with no first-round pick.

[Fixxxer]

If Coughlin is fired in New York I would trade for Nassib.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

Do you mean patience for a project QB? Fans were patient with Kelly (who did have two years in the AFL), and i think they would have been patient with Dalton and Tannehill, both of whom have showed a lot more than Manuel. I have a pretty high opinion of Bills fans as a whole; they are pretty knowledgeable. For example, they know the value of a good offensive line, obviously far more than the current management. I'm not sure agree that fans would have reacted badly by keeping Fitz, if only because cutting him meant eating his huge salary for two years. I think cutting him only made Nix and Whaley's original mistake (signing him to a mega-contract) worse, as others have pointed out. Why pay Orton AND Fitz? No, I disagree with PTR. Even excusing him from the Fitz fiasco, I think Whaley has fumbled the QB situation here. And now he has fewer options than ever, with no first-round pick.

Kelly in the AFL?

 

I must disagree with your take on sticking with Fitz. There would have been a full scale march on OBD with pitchforks and torches if Fitz was brought back as starter.

Edited December 2, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[Buffalo Barbarian]

WGR was discussing Whaley's tenure at GM this morning, citing his "failure" in addressing the QB situation as his biggest black mark. Yet no one who chastises Whaley can say who should be QB for the Bills, only that what we have isn't good enough.

 

I say there is no QB that was available in the last two drafts our available in free agency that would meet the standard of play we are demanding at QB. Sure there are plenty of QBs that you might think are good, or who might be good eventually. But there is no QB in the last two years who was available to Whaley that is franchise caliber.

 

So does out even make sense to complain about the QB situation when there wasn't a realistic option? It's like being wrong on a test where all the answers are wrong.

 

Russel Wilson/ thread

[GunnerBill]

Russell Wilson is not on Whaley.

 

I don't think there has been a Quarterback available in either draft or FA since Whaley took the reign who would come in and be an immediate upgrade at the position on what we have - to that end I agree with the OP.

 

I also agree with him that sticking with Fitz was only an option in theory in 2013. The fanbase wanted him gone desperately. For a new coach to come in and say "we are sticking with Fitz" would have been career suicide on day 1.

 

I didn't think there was a Quarterback in last year's draft genuinely worth a top 10 pick, but if I was picking one to fall in love with I'd have gone the same way as the Jaguars went at #3 and taken Bortles. He has had an up and down rookie year and I don't think our production from that position this year would have been any better with Bortles in there than with EJ/Orton. He could be something down the road though.

 

As for the other 3 drafted early last year - I think they pretty much went in the right kind of territory (lates 1st / early 2nd). Bridgewater has not looked very impressive to me so far, aside from that first start where he got out of the pocket and made plays with his legs and Carr started well but has regressed pretty quickly as more and more tape on him emerges. That is partly being a rookie on a bad team, but to suggest at this stage that he has shown lots more than EJ is a misrepresentation. I think sometimes fans on here don't see the low-lights of other QBs - just the good bits. If they went and watched the game in condensed form and watched every throw they would see a lot of the same mistakes that they hammer EJ for - taking checkdowns without getting through all his progressions, some inaccuracy from the pocket and a lack of willingness to try and throw receivers open. That isn't to say Carr or Bridgewater can't be better long term than EJ..... just that they haven't done anything to blow him out of the water so far.

 

I'm actually intrigued to see Manziel get a shot. My doubts are on record but I thought even given the back up defense he looked the sharpest thrower of the three QBs I saw throw on Sunday. He was always a bit of a boom or bust pick. I will be interested to see how it goes for him. I definitely think he will be in a better position to succeed than he would have been starting in week 1.

[Coach Tuesday]

The Bills drafted Ross Cockrell over Zach Mettenberger. There's just one example that comes to mind.

[GG]

The Bills drafted Ross Cockrell over Zach Mettenberger. There's just one example that comes to mind.

 

You can never have enough 4th round CBs.

[papazoid]

so, to summarize.....

 

 

#1- no matter where the bills pick in the draft, there will be a better player at another position that should be picked instead of a QB.

 

#2- all the possible free agent QB's in 2015 are garbage.

 

#3- it's not whaley's fault.

 

 

(laffin)

 

 

[thebandit27]

#1- no matter where the bills pick in the draft, there will be a better player at another position that should be picked instead of a QB.

 

I don't know who said this, but I can speak for myself and say that it's not what I said or meant. I do, however, agree with the idea that it's ill-advised to simply draft a QB for the sake of drafting one. Now, if you like a QB, and think he can be a franchise guy, and you don't currently have a franchise guy, then yes, you should take him ASAP so as not to miss out. That's kind of what they did with EJ, and so far it hasn't worked.

 

#2- all the possible free agent QB's in 2015 are garbage.

 

I know for a fact that nobody said that. In fact, I've seen mentioned (in this thread and others) names like Bradford, Sanchez, and Matt Moore as FA possibilities.

 

#3- it's not whaley's fault.

 

Debatable I guess. I place the onus on Whaley for not having a better backup plan to EJ coming into this year. Beyond that, I find no fault with his approach since he's been given the reigns. He needed to draft a QB, he identified the guy with the highest upside, who they felt could potentially be the guy, and they took him (whilst garnering an extra pick that turned into Kiko by the way). Nobody even remotely decent has emerged from the 2013 class, so it's not like he made a critical mistake there.

 

I guess I'm not sure what your point is...if you have a take, feel free to provide it. The post above appears to be an effort to mis-characterize some other points for no obvious reason.

[GunnerBill]

so, to summarize.....

 

 

#1- no matter where the bills pick in the draft, there will be a better player at another position that should be picked instead of a QB.

 

#2- all the possible free agent QB's in 2015 are garbage.

 

#3- it's not whaley's fault.

 

 

(laffin)

 

i know this is partly in jest.. because other than #3 I'm not sure any of those points have been made, however, I think it is possible that there are some good options out there this year. I'd 100% kick the tyres on either Bradford or Eli should they become available, I think both are an upgrade. I'd be interested in bringing Jake Locker in too. I'm not so sure he is an immediate upgrade but there have been a couple of spells of consistent play among the injuries and the disappointments and I think the Bills have to go into OTAs and mini camp at least with an open mind as to next year's starter. Let EJ compete, let Kyle compete (if he stays) but have another viable option in the mix too. Sitting station with EJ and Kyle is not acceptable as far as I am concerned. If they beat another guy out fair enough but they can't enter camp with those two and Tuel.

[GG]

I guess I'm not sure what your point is...if you have a take, feel free to provide it. The post above appears to be an effort to mis-characterize some other points for no obvious reason.

 

My guess is that it was an attempt to counter the perpetual excuse machine, which is starting to get oiled for the 2015 season.