There has not been a QB worth signing/drafting since 2013

[PromoTheRobot]

WGR was discussing Whaley's tenure at GM this morning, citing his "failure" in addressing the QB situation as his biggest black mark. Yet no one who chastises Whaley can say who should be QB for the Bills, only that what we have isn't good enough.

 

I say there is no QB that was available in the last two drafts our available in free agency that would meet the standard of play we are demanding at QB. Sure there are plenty of QBs that you might think are good, or who might be good eventually. But there is no QB in the last two years who was available to Whaley that is franchise caliber.

 

So does out even make sense to complain about the QB situation when there wasn't a realistic option? It's like being wrong on a test where all the answers are wrong.

Edited December 1, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[Dorkington]

I'm actually curious to see a list of QBs available to us since 2013, it'd be interesting to go through and see if we can find better than what KO/EJ has done. Not saying that KO/EJ is the answer, just seems like there hasn't been a whole lot better.

[prissythecat]

Manziel is a BB favored QB and was available to us during last years draft. Imagine the highlight reels we would have.

[Captain Hindsight]

Clearly we missed on Landry Jones

 

And Jimmy Clausen was available this year

[PromoTheRobot]

Manziel is a BB favored QB and was available to us during last years draft. Imagine the highlight reels we would have.

Wins or highlights?

[Dorkington]

Manziel lucked out of two turnovers in two drives yesterday, but he's the crown of ESPN today. !@#$ing nuts.

[prissythecat]

Wins or highlights?

 

Perhaps both. But mainly highlights right now. Didn't everyone love Manziel doing the "money " gesture after scoring? Or how about how he flopped in end zone after fumbling and being bowled over by Kyle?

[YoloinOhio]

We could have had Luke McCown!! Oh.

[LB3]

Whaley really blew it when he didn't do everything in his power to try and sign Mattarvaris Jacksflynn!

 

Fire Whaley!

[Lofton80]

If Giants start a rebuild, Eli might be available.

[gobillsinytown]

You would think that with the league being more passing oriented that the QBs coming out of college would be able to adapt to the pro game better.

But so far, the ratio of QB draft hits to misses has remained about the same.

 

The only difference that I see at this point is in the amount of hype surrounding them.

 

It would definitely be interesting to look at the list of QBs drafted in, say, the last four years and see how many are still playing.

[K-9]

You would think that with the league being more passing oriented that the QBs coming out of college would be able to adapt to the pro game better.

But so far, the ratio of QB draft hits to misses has remained about the same.

 

The only difference that I see at this point is in the amount of hype surrounding them.

 

It would definitely be interesting to look at the list of QBs drafted in, say, the last four years and see how many are still playing.

 

I don't think that at all. College defenses are Pop Warner caliber compared to what these QBs see in the NFL. It's great that they can understand passing concepts, but it's still the rarest thing in pro sports for a rookie QB to excel in the NFL right off the bat.

 

Mariotta, this year's flavor of the month will be the next over-hyped college wonder to find that out.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited December 1, 2014 by K-9

[JohnC]

WGR was discussing Whaley's tenure at GM this morning, citing his "failure" in addressing the QB situation as his biggest black mark. Yet no one who chastises Whaley can say who should be QB for the Bills, only that what we have isn't good enough.

 

I say there is no QB that was available in the last two drafts our available in free agency that would meet the standard of play we are demanding at QB. Sure there are plenty of QBs that you might think are good, or who might be good eventually. But there is no QB in the last two years who was available to Whaley that is franchise caliber.

 

So does out even make sense to complain about the QB situation when there wasn't a realistic option? It's like being wrong on a test where all the answers are wrong.

 

If you can't come up with a legitimate franchise qb in a generatiion from the draft or from the market then your organization is a failure. Russell Wilson was available in the third round but Buddy preferred a track receiver. Just because you can't come up with an elite qb that doesn't excuse you from not coming up with a legitimate franchise qb. Excuses don't resolve problems they perpetuate them

[Captain Hindsight]

If Giants start a rebuild, Eli might be available.

They would be awfully dumb to do that IMO

 

Its more the price of not having a QB. Eli has won two super bowls, he's a good QB

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

If you can't come up with a legitimate franchise qb in a generatiion from the draft or from the market then your organization is a failure. Russell Wilson was available in the third round but Buddy preferred a track receiver. Just because you can't come up with an elite qb that doesn't excuse you from not coming up with a legitimate franchise qb. Excuses don't resolve problems they perpetuate them

So who would you pick?

[prissythecat]

They would be awfully dumb to do that IMO

 

Its more the price of not having a QB. Eli has won two super bowls, he's a good QB

 

 

So if Eli won those Superbowls all by himself, why have the Giants been so awful the past few seasons? Or is it because the team around the QB counts as well?

[JohnC]

So who would you pick?

 

There were plenty of reasonable picks that would have stabilized the position compared to where it now stands. Russell Wilson, Foles, Dalton, Kaepernick, Alex Smith was on the market. If you are not in a position to get an elite prospect then go a little farther down the ladder and get someone who can still be a legitimae starter. Investing in Fitz was a losing proposition from the start because he was, and will always be, a decent backup.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

There were plenty of reasonable picks that would have stabilized the position compared to where it now stands. Russell Wilson, Foles, Dalton, Kaepernick, Alex Smith was on the market. If you are not in a position to get an elite prospect then go a little farther down the ladder and get someone who can still be a legitimae starter. Investing in Fitz was a losing proposition from the start because he was, and will always be, a decent backup.

All of those QBs were available before 2013. I'm making the point there was no one since Whaley was made GM, or since the 2013 draft. Fitz was gone before Whaley was GM.

 

Also are you saying better than Orton/EJ or franchise quality?

 

 

Edited December 1, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[4merper4mer]

When I look at what Whaley has done I'd say he has missed in three areas from a player perspective, whether it be draft or FA:

 

QB

OG

TE

 

At QB I think the OP's point is well taken. Whaley took a shot at least with EJ. All the pundits had Geno as the top QB that year. Whaley passed on him...good. Could he have waited another year and taken Bortles? Maybe. That would be about it and is far from a sure thing. I don't see FA's out there doing anything.

 

At OG it is hard to tell if he whiffed in the draft, things will take time, or it is simply a meter of poor coaching. Some of this could be on Whaley.

 

I view TE as similar to QB in that we don't know what was really there. He did say he liked Ebron.....meh. I'll take Sammy.

 

Given that there are only 3 positions where questions remain on our roster I would say Whaley deserves a ton of credit. It is too bad that one of the three is QB.

 

The big question about Whaley is what hand did he truly have in hiring this abomination of a coach. Was it Buddy? Was it the purse strings? Was it Whaley? It is like the reverse of that famous quote from Parcells. Whaley can get the best ingredients in the world, but if he hires a chef from Burger King, the restaurant is going to flop.

Edited December 1, 2014 by 4merper4mer

[JohnC]

So who would you pick?

 

I'm a Russell Wilson fan. Although he is a small-statured player he knows how to play. For a young player he has the maturity of a veteran. Buddy usually preferred bigger players regardless of position when selecting players. Missing on Wilson set this franchise back.

 

Kaepernick and Dalton would have been reasonable selections.

 

The bottom-line is if you haven't been in the playoffs for 15 consecutive years and have had a losing record in 9 out of 10 years then you have run out of excuses. It's one thing to not hit on a prospect and it is worse not to repeatedly try to address that position in a meaningful way.

[Fan in Chicago]

WGR was discussing Whaley's tenure at GM this morning, citing his "failure" in addressing the QB situation as his biggest black mark. Yet no one who chastises Whaley can say who should be QB for the Bills, only that what we have isn't good enough.

 

 

Should have traded for Alex Smith last year and if they liked EJ, drafted him anyway. That would let us have a middling QB who would have done far better with this squad than the rookie EJ did last year or what Orton is doing this year.

 

Whaley has built a very good roster but it could have been better with the choices that were available. ASmith, re-signing Levitre or signing Vasquez (I think he was the G available). I would venture to guess that we would have a minimum of two more wins this year so far.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Fan in Chicago

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

I'm a Russell Wilson fan. Although he is a small-statured player he knows how to play. For a young player he has the maturity of a veteran. Buddy usually preferred bigger players regardless of position when selecting players. Missing on Wilson set this franchise back.

 

Kaepernick and Dalton would have been reasonable selections.

 

The bottom-line is if you haven't been in the playoffs for 15 consecutive years and have had a losing record in 9 out of 10 years then you have run out of excuses. It's one thing to not hit on a prospect and it is worse not to repeatedly try to address that position in a meaningful way.

Holding the organization responsible for 15+ years is all well and good, but it's still one person who makes the picks. Whaley had been the guy since 2013. Not before.

[K-9]

There were plenty of reasonable picks that would have stabilized the position compared to where it now stands. Russell Wilson, Foles, Dalton, Kaepernick, Alex Smith was on the market. If you are not in a position to get an elite prospect then go a little farther down the ladder and get someone who can still be a legitimae starter. Investing in Fitz was a losing proposition from the start because he was, and will always be, a decent backup.

 

We had discussions with SF regarding Smith. The Niners simply liked the Chiefs' offer better, which makes sense because they had the higher second round pick to trade, the #34 pick in the draft in 2013.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[cantankerous]

Derek Carr over Kouandjio sounds pretty nice right about now.

[thebandit27]

Derek Carr over Kouandjio sounds pretty nice right about now.

 

Yes, that big goose egg they put up in St. Louis yesterday--lead by Carr's 2 INT, 0 TD performance--looks very inviting, as does the 1-11 record Carr boasts despite playing behind one of the league's best pass-protecting OLs.

[JohnC]

Holding the organization responsible for 15+ years is all well and good, but it's still one person who makes the picks. Whaley had been the guy since 2013. Not before.

 

None of us know for sure how instrumental Whaley was involved in the EJ selection. That would be intriguing to know. Joe B on WGR stated that he "suspected" that the EJ selection was a Nix pick because it was consistent with Nix's proclivity toward big players. I believe that Whaley was not only on board with the selection but he was directly involved with the qb rankings.

 

Is EJ our long term franchise qb? I can't say for sure. I am very troubled with his level of accuracy and ability to read defenses and go through his progressions. I hope I am wrong and I don't want to too quickly make a conclusive judgment on him at this point. But I am very queasy about his prospects from what I have already seen.

 

When the team has been floundering for a generation then there should be a great sense of urgency to get back into the hunt. Until there is a legitimate franchise qb taking the snaps the best you can hope for is being average in a parity designed system.

[GG]

Excellent, the excuse machine is in full gear.

 

If you want to lay it at Whaley's feet, ask why he felt comfortable with Lewis, Tuel & Dixon as backups? He already has a built in excuse without a top pick in the draft, and as of now, Orton is probably the best available option through next year, but there will be comparable talent to him next spring. But that's besides the point. The team decided to finally address the position in the weakest QB draft in decades and didn't add to the prospect pool this year.

 

You can't just put the position in a one year isolation time machine. Even the Patriots have invested more in the back up position in the last 5 years.

[cantankerous]

Yes, that big goose egg they put up in St. Louis yesterday--lead by Carr's 2 INT, 0 TD performance--looks very inviting, as does the 1-11 record Carr boasts despite playing behind one of the league's best pass-protecting OLs.

 

He looks like a real QB though. He's on a horrible team. I'd take him over EJ in a heartbeat.

 

Are you seriously telling me you'd rather have Kouandjio over Carr? Are you arguing just to argue?

[K-9]

Derek Carr over Kouandjio sounds pretty nice right about now.

 

How was that gonna happen when Carr was already off the board?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[JohnC]

We had discussions with SF regarding Smith. The Niners simply liked the Chiefs' offer better, which makes sense because they had the higher second round pick to trade, the #34 pick in the draft in 2013.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I don't doubt that. My point with PTR is that you have to constantly be involved in the pursuit of a franchise qb. There is no doubt that odds are against most prospects making it except of a Luck type prospect. That makes it even more important to repeatedly try.

 

It's easy to say in hindsight but Russell Wilson was there to be had.Taking the track receiver, Graham, was a lost opportunity. Wilson had all the required attributes other than height. For Nix that was a disqualifying attribute. It set this franchise back. Kaepernick was also a very interesting prospect. Dalton was a no frills and solid prospect who is better than what we had and now have.

 

Yes, that big goose egg they put up in St. Louis yesterday--lead by Carr's 2 INT, 0 TD performance--looks very inviting, as does the 1-11 record Carr boasts despite playing behind one of the league's best pass-protecting OLs.

 

I'll without hesitation take Carr over EJ as my primary qb prospect.

Edited December 1, 2014 by JohnC

[thebandit27]

He looks like a real QB though. He's on a horrible team. I'd take him over EJ in a heartbeat.

 

Are you seriously telling me you'd rather have Kouandjio over Carr? Are you arguing just to argue?

 

I have no idea who I'd rather have between an OT that cannot get on the field and a QB that cannot win a game in the NFL. I do know that nothing about Carr, his 1-11 record as a starter, his 0-point effort yesterday, his 30th ranked QBR, or his 74.4 passer rating (which places him at 32nd, firmly behind Kirk Cousins and Drew Stanton) makes me wish the Bills had traded up to the No. 34 pick to get him.

 

What's your take that makes you say he'd be worth doing so? Oh, and please include what compensation you'd have offered to make such a move. Or are you trolling just to troll?

[Captain Hindsight]

So if Eli won those Superbowls all by himself, why have the Giants been so awful the past few seasons? Or is it because the team around the QB counts as well?

Of course the team around him matters. You think Tom Brady wins a super bowl without that defense? Or Manning without Reggie Wayne and his O line?

[Tyrod's Tailor]

Of course the team around him matters. You think Tom Brady wins a super bowl without that defense camera? Or Manning without Reggie Wayne and his O line?

[JohnC]

How was that gonna happen when Carr was already off the board?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I'm a Watkins fan. Buf if I had the choice of trading down and selecting Carr with a lower first round pick I would do it in a heartbeat. Until the Bills get the qb position upgraded they will be a non-serious team.

[Dan]

Trick question!

 

All QBs not on the Bills' roster are better than any QB currently playing on the Bills' roster.

[papazoid]

kim pegula thinks it a good idea to draft a QB every single year.

 

that's refreshing.....to bad she wasn't in charge earlier. we have a big hole to dig out of.

 

as far as running cover for whaley since 2013..... it's true, no viable Top 20 free agent QB was an option.

 

he swung and missed on Kolb (best available).

 

he swung and missed on Orton (best available).

 

naturally we pick a QB in the 1st round of 2013 in a draft that had no first graded QB's.

 

in 2014 we picked kouanjio instead of garrapolo in the 2nd round. could have traded down and picked manziel in the first.

 

in 2015, I like Ryan Mallett and Colt McCoy in Free Agency.

 

 

[K-9]

I'm a Watkins fan. Buf if I had the choice of trading down and selecting Carr with a lower first round pick I would do it in a heartbeat. Until the Bills get the qb position upgraded they will be a non-serious team.

 

The Bills took a chance on getting a generational talent, which was the consensus on SW throughout the scouting community. He and Clowney were both legit #1 overall prospects in the draft. Carr doesn't even register on that talent scale.

 

I get the point about finding your QB. But it's not a linear process and when there are far more talented players available vs. a lower rated QB prospect, it makes sense to select the blue chip prospect. Perfectly understandable.

 

I don't want to have this discussion for the umpteenth time, but the Bills have invested high picks in QBs since Kelly retired. They swung for the fences and missed on guys that were as good or better than the Daltons and Kaepernicks of the league, neither of whom I feel is the answer, either. Better than what we have now? Yes. But they are at their ceilings in my opinion. Especially Kaep, who still has much to learn about operating from the pocket.

 

Russel Wilson is the exception to the rule. As evidenced by being passed over 74 times before being selected. NOBODY was right about him. Nobody. And I can't credit any retrospective argument to the contrary.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited December 1, 2014 by K-9

[Casey D]

None of us know for sure how instrumental Whaley was involved in the EJ selection. That would be intriguing to know. Joe B on WGR stated that he "suspected" that the EJ selection was a Nix pick because it was consistent with Nix's proclivity toward big players. I believe that Whaley was not only on board with the selection but he was directly involved with the qb rankings.

 

Is EJ our long term franchise qb? I can't say for sure. I am very troubled with his level of accuracy and ability to read defenses and go through his progressions. I hope I am wrong and I don't want to too quickly make a conclusive judgment on him at this point. But I am very queasy about his prospects from what I have already seen.

 

When the team has been floundering for a generation then there should be a great sense of urgency to get back into the hunt. Until there is a legitimate franchise qb taking the snaps the best you can hope for is being average in a parity designed system.

Oh, if you have a sesne of urgency you will find the guy? The point Promo makes is clear-- who since he was GM should Whaley have gotten? None of the guys you point to were available to Whaley, as opposed to his predecessors. So who could an "urgent Whaley" have gotten? The only answer so far has been Alex Smith, which is probably the best he could have gotten but that is not saying much.

 

kim pegula thinks it a good idea to draft a QB every single year.

 

that's refreshing.....to bad she wasn't in charge earlier. we have a big hole to dig out of.

 

as far as running cover for whaley since 2013..... it's true, no viable Top 20 free agent QB was an option.

 

he swung and missed on Kolb (best available).

 

he swung and missed on Orton (best available).

 

naturally we pick a QB in the 1st round of 2013 in a draft that had no first graded QB's.

 

in 2014 we picked kouanjio instead of garrapolo in the 2nd round. could have traded down and picked manziel in the first.

 

in 2015, I like Ryan Mallett and Colt McCoy in Free Agency.

Yuck!

[thebandit27]

kim pegula thinks it a good idea to draft a QB every single year.

 

that's refreshing.....to bad she wasn't in charge earlier. we have a big hole to dig out of.

 

as far as running cover for whaley since 2013..... it's true, no viable Top 20 free agent QB was an option.

 

he swung and missed on Kolb (best available).

 

he swung and missed on Orton (best available).

 

naturally we pick a QB in the 1st round of 2013 in a draft that had no first graded QB's.

 

in 2014 we picked kouanjio instead of garrapolo in the 2nd round. could have traded down and picked manziel in the first.

 

in 2015, I like Ryan Mallett and Colt McCoy in Free Agency.

 

And with the bold statement above, the credibility of QB evaluation goes up in smoke. What has either of those two guys done to make you like them as NFL QBs?

[prissythecat]

Of course the team around him matters. You think Tom Brady wins a super bowl without that defense? Or Manning without Reggie Wayne and his O line?

 

Then based on your statements Eli did not win those Superbowls. It was a combination of good defense that limited Brady and his receivers along with some timely / lucky throws to receivers who are already out of league or on their way out. Its just like saying Trent Dilfer won Superbowls.