PSL Pricing/Seat Selection Discussion

[DieHardFan]

19 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

So….you usually sell most of your tickets and are wondering why there aren’t many STH around you?  Think about that for a minute and get back to us. 😝

Not wondering, genius. Responding to @ProcessTruster re his concern that the stadium WILL be filled with resold tickets once PSLs are in effect.

 

Probably difficult to understand what a poster is saying when you diarrah post responses to every comment made.

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

The doom and gloom never left Kirby

That’s why I was so adamant about a dome/roofed stadium. Because even the people with the worst seats in the place will at least be dry and comfortable in any condition. And I’m fully aware prices might be even higher, but at least it would feel like we’re gaining something from it.  

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, Mike in Horseheads said:

The doom and gloom never left Kirby

Maybe you’re right. I remember having this EXACT conversation during the Bon Jovi era. These people were CONVINCED that the team was heading to Toronto without any understanding of the lease agreement basically making that impossible. Sure enough, the Bills future in WNY was secured and the new stadium on the way.

 

Fast forward a decade and people think that the team is leaving because 1% of the tickets in the stadium have higher PSLs than they expected 😂😂. It’s WILD to watch. Lol, I keep coming across as dismissive and an a-hole but I can’t help it. I feel a responsibility here to prevent this growing “Chicken Little sentiment” built on misinformation and lack of understanding. 

I will try to say this as clearly as possible. THE BILLS WILL BE IN WNY FOR AT LEAST 30 YEARS. THE PSLS WILL SELL TO BILLS FANS AT THE RATE THAT TICKETS CURRENTLY DO. THE NEW STADIUM WILL BE FULL OF BILLS FANS. EVERYONE RELAX!!

[Mike in Horseheads]

7 minutes ago, mrags said:

That’s why I was so adamant about a dome/roofed stadium. Because even the people with the worst seats in the place will at least be dry and comfortable in any condition. And I’m fully aware prices might be even higher, but at least it would feel like we’re gaining something from it.  

Maybe but I doubt it , people here are never happy.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

Maybe but I doubt it , people here are never happy.

At least they would have been miserable pricks that were dry and warm tho 

[WotAGuy]

34 minutes ago, DieHardFan said:

Not wondering, genius. Responding to @ProcessTruster re his concern that the stadium WILL be filled with resold tickets once PSLs are in effect.

 

Probably difficult to understand what a poster is saying when you diarrah post responses to every comment made.

Hey, if you’re not part of the solution you you’re part of the problem.  You only sell to Bills fans?

[DieHardFan]

9 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

Hey, if you’re not part of the solution you you’re part of the problem.  You only sell to Bills fans?

Prefer to sell to Bills fans. My tickets are listed on TM AND in the dysfunctional Bills Tickets and Gear section without fees. They rarely sell on TBD but always sell. 

You can try but you can't fix (or sell to) stupid.

 

I see your intelligence matches your image, you judgemental buffoon .

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

There is definitely a sunk cost, but people can bail on them if need be.  

 

They can, but most people won't want to, because humans are reluctant to abandon something they've already put resources into, even when doing so would be the rational decision based on current circumstances. It's then sunk cost fallacy.

"I just paid $40k for two PSL's in the club section five years ago. How could I possibly justify letting them go? I must suck it up and pay the ever-increasing season ticket prices, because if I don't, that $40k was a waste."
 

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

But don’t PSLs also have diminishing returns?  They have a fixed lifespan, so as the years go by, wouldn’t you expect the value to decrease as their usable life decreases?  

 

Yes, which is part of why it sucks so much. And it can be calculated 10 ways to Sunday and all the results would be a dismal picture.

Consider the time value of money, for one. Take a $20k PSL (club section pricing I've seen) as an example. What is the NPV? Well, NPV is a function of time and discount rate. Let's use a simplified NPV due to no cash inflows, replacing with price.


 

From what we have seen, $20,000 per PSL is what the Bills are asking for club seats. 

And we know they have a 30 year lifespan, so let's look at the NPV for 5 years from purchase date.

Assuming only a 5% discount rate, we get a dismal future outlook

 

The NPV of a $20,000 PSL at 5 year onset is $5,906.67.

And this is only a discount rate at 5%. The opportunity cost of capital for any of us could be the average market return at the moment. 



2023 was over 20%. You don't want to see the calculations at 20+% discount rate.

 

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

 

Also, the fortunes of the team will probably play a big role in the market value of PSLs; if the team goes on a championship run, wouldn’t you expect the value to be affected positively by that?

If they WIN a Super Bowl, it will spike for a year or two. Are you willing to sell your PSL in that time to realize the gain (or lack of loss)? 

Or will you be so excited about the Championship that you decide to keep it? 

Which then creates a situation where if the team does not repeat (regresses), your value goes down. 

We saw this with Giants PSL's after their Super Bowl. Wild peak, then off a cliff.

Edited March 30 by Einstein

[WotAGuy]

5 minutes ago, DieHardFan said:

Prefer to sell to Bills fans. My tickets are listed on TM AND in the dysfunctional Bills Tickets and Gear section without fees. They rarely sell on TBD but always sell. 

You can try but you can't fix (or sell to) stupid.

 

I see your intelligence matches your image, you judgemental buffoon .

Happy Easter!

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

They can, but most people won't want to, because humans are reluctant to abandon something they've already put resources into, even when doing so would be the rational decision based on current circumstances. It's then sunk cost fallacy.

"I just paid $40k for two PSL's in the club section five years ago. How could I possibly justify letting them go? I must suck it up and pay the ever-increasing season ticket prices, because if I don't, that $40k was a waste."
 

 

Yes, which is part of why it sucks so much. And it can be calculated 10 ways to Sunday and all the results would be a dismal picture.

Consider the time value of money, for one. Take a $20k PSL (club section pricing I've seen) as an example. What is the NPV? Well, NPV is a function of time and discount rate.


 

From what we have seen, $20,000 per PSL is what the Bills are asking for club seats. 

And we know they have a 30 year lifespan, so let's look at the NPV for 5 years from purchase date.

Assuming only a 5% discount rate, we get a dismal future outlook

 

The NPV of a $20,000 PSL at 5 year onset is $5,906.67.

And this is only a discount rate at 5%. The opportunity cost of capital for any of us could be the average market return at the moment. 



2023 was over 20%. You don't want to see the calculations at 20+% discount rate.

 

If they WIN a Super Bowl, it will spike for a year or two. Are you willing to sell your PSL in that time to realize the gain (or lack of loss)? 

Or will you be so excited about the Championship that you decide to keep it? 

Happy Easter Einstein!

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

I’ll just stick with buying a top of the line TV every few years, with the best viewing angles possible, no traffic or obnoxious drunks vomiting in public… to each their own, I get why others enjoy the stadium experience, I did in my 20s, when the team was awful, and tickets were readily available, often below face value on gameday, but as a fan of the actual game and it’s nuances, I don’t think there is a worse sport to watch live. Idc what your financial situation is, I couldn’t fathom paying these egregious sums to watch a game where you’re not even certain what’s happened half of the time until you’ve watched the replay on the Jumbotron. If I had enough $ to not care about the price of the PSLs, that’d mean I’d be worth enough to own my own team, and I’d just do that instead.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Can someone summarize for me the anger over the PSLs? I am not a season ticket holder. I thought it was assumed the new stadium was going to have PSLs. 

I dont understand why the outrage as if people were duped. Did people expect there was not going to be a PSL?

 

[Nitro]

If PSLs are too expensive the market will dictate the results.   Season tickets drop opening up seating to those who want to purchase tickets to single games.   It will afford the opportunity for out of town fans to come to games.  Wait and see and maybe be in a few years PSLs will reduce in price.  

[Einstein]

34 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Can someone summarize for me the anger over the PSLs? I am not a season ticket holder. I thought it was assumed the new stadium was going to have PSLs. 

I dont understand why the outrage as if people were duped. Did people expect there was not going to be a PSL?

If someone tells you that they are going to poke you in the eye of March 22nd at 4:32pm, i'm sure you will be upset.

Will you be any less upset when the eye poke happens, having known that it was comming?

[WotAGuy]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

If someone tells you that they are going to poke you in the eye of March 22nd at 4:32pm, i'm sure you will be upset.

Will you be any less upset when the eye poke happens, having known that it was comming?

Depends…..does this happen in a Taco Bell?

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

 If I had enough $ to not care about the price of the PSLs, that’d mean I’d be worth enough to own my own team, and I’d just do that instead.

If you were worth $500M, you’d care about the price of PSLs? I can’t fathom living in a world where the interest on my money gives off millions of dollars a year and thinking, “do they seriously expect me to pay $5,000, one-time, for the right to buy a season ticket?!?” 😂😂😂 

Edited March 30 by Kirby Jackson

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Can someone summarize for me the anger over the PSLs? I am not a season ticket holder. I thought it was assumed the new stadium was going to have PSLs. 

I dont understand why the outrage as if people were duped. Did people expect there was not going to be a PSL?

 

People need something to complain about 😀

[lookylookyherecomescookie]

23 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

If you were worth $500M, you’d care about the price of PSLs? I can’t fathom living in a world where the interest on my money gives off millions of dollars a year and thinking, “do they seriously expect me to pay $5,000 for the right to buy a season ticket?!?” 😂😂😂 

I live in a world where my net worth does not determine my sense of value. It's actually a very nice world to live in.

[Kirby Jackson]

10 minutes ago, lookylookyherecomescookie said:

I live in a world where my net worth does not determine my sense of value. It's actually a very nice world to live in.

So for the purposes of the 25 page conversation are you on team, “even if I had a billion dollars I wouldn’t spend $1 on a PSL” or team, “PSLs suck but that’s the way business is done in 2024?” 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

If someone tells you that they are going to poke you in the eye of March 22nd at 4:32pm, i'm sure you will be upset.

Will you be any less upset when the eye poke happens, having known that it was comming?

Well to keep using your analogy you can choose not to get poked in the eye. 

Nobody is forcing someone to buy the PSL.

If you want the team to stay in Buffalo this is the price you pay. It's the world we live in. 

No less than five other cities would take the Bills and their fans would willingly pay for the PSL.

Cleveland and northeast Ohio is about to put up 500 million just to renovate their broken down stadium or get shilled for $1B or more to build a dome. 

Can't have it both ways. You want the team you have to pay. 

 

As for me I'm still going to get club level tix a few times a year and hit a couple away games a year. I still work too many weekends to justify season tix even if I'm only under 3 hours away now. 

[GottaRun]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Can someone summarize for me the anger over the PSLs? I am not a season ticket holder. I thought it was assumed the new stadium was going to have PSLs. 

I dont understand why the outrage as if people were duped. Did people expect there was not going to be a PSL?

 

People are guessing at what the PSL will be for the cheaper seats... then they are getting outraged at the imaginary number they came up with

[lookylookyherecomescookie]

13 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

So for the purposes of the 25 page conversation are you on team, “even if I had a billion dollars I wouldn’t spend $1 on a PSL” or team, “PSLs suck but that’s the way business is done in 2024?” 

  If I valued the PSL at over $1.00, I would buy it. If I valued the PSL at less than $1.00, I wouldn't. You can substitute any $ amount you like into that sentence. So I guess I'm on neither team. Many factors can influence how I value something, but net worth is not one of them. Net worth certainly effects what I am able to buy, just not how I value something. I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to describe someone else's world to you.

[Royale with Cheese]

20 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Well to keep using your analogy you can choose not to get poked in the eye. 

Nobody is forcing someone to buy the PSL.

If you want the team to stay in Buffalo this is the price you pay. It's the world we live in. 

No less than five other cities would take the Bills and their fans would willingly pay for the PSL.

Cleveland and northeast Ohio is about to put up 500 million just to renovate their broken down stadium or get shilled for $1B or more to build a dome. 

Can't have it both ways. You want the team you have to pay. 

 

As for me I'm still going to get club level tix a few times a year and hit a couple away games a year. I still work too many weekends to justify season tix even if I'm only under 3 hours away now. 

 100% to this post.

[WotAGuy]

4 hours ago, lookylookyherecomescookie said:

  If I valued the PSL at over $1.00, I would buy it. If I valued the PSL at less than $1.00, I wouldn't. You can substitute any $ amount you like into that sentence. So I guess I'm on neither team. Many factors can influence how I value something, but net worth is not one of them. Net worth certainly effects what I am able to buy, just not how I value something. I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to describe someone else's world to you.

That’s a fresh perspective. 
 

You should meet up with Einstein, I think you two would hit it off. 
 

 

Edited March 31 by WotAGuy

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Well to keep using your analogy you can choose not to get poked in the eye. 

Nobody is forcing someone to buy the PSL.

If you want the team to stay in Buffalo this is the price you pay. It's the world we live in. 

No less than five other cities would take the Bills and their fans would willingly pay for the PSL.

Cleveland and northeast Ohio is about to put up 500 million just to renovate their broken down stadium or get shilled for $1B or more to build a dome. 

Can't have it both ways. You want the team you have to pay. 

 

As for me I'm still going to get club level tix a few times a year and hit a couple away games a year. I still work too many weekends to justify season tix even if I'm only under 3 hours away now. 

Good point. Cleveland stadium is only about 25 years old now as well. Rich/ Ralph/ New Era/ Highmark is over 50 years old. This is actually something that Buffalo should have went through about 20 years ago but managed to stave it off. The Bills have been in the old model NFL economy for 30 years longer than anyone else. 

[Einstein]

38 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Well to keep using your analogy you can choose not to get poked in the eye. 

 

Not really...

And definitely not if you live in Western NY.

 

1) You are being taxed for the stadium against your will.

2) Even if you only go to a few games per year (do not buy season tix), the resale tickets will be inflated proportionally to the PSL value.
 

38 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

If you want the team to stay in Buffalo this is the price you pay. It's the world we live in. 

This is a function of the owner.

Some owners will pay for the stadium themselves AND not charge a PSL. See New England.

[WotAGuy]

17 minutes ago, Einstein said:

This is a function of the owner.

Some owners will pay for the stadium themselves AND not charge a PSL. See New England.

Well, it’s not surprising he gave away the farm - he was receiving a lot of manual stimulation that warped his thinking. 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, lookylookyherecomescookie said:

  If I valued the PSL at over $1.00, I would buy it. If I valued the PSL at less than $1.00, I wouldn't. You can substitute any $ amount you like into that sentence. So I guess I'm on neither team. Many factors can influence how I value something, but net worth is not one of them. Net worth certainly effects what I am able to buy, just not how I value something. I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to describe someone else's world to you.

Sure. This conversation is basically one or the other. It isn’t about net worth (in any way). It’s about PSLs and if we accept or reject them. No one likes them.

[Punching Bag]

13 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Sure. This conversation is basically one or the other. It isn’t about net worth (in any way). It’s about PSLs and if we accept or reject them. No one likes them.

 

Ticket agencies appear to - they factor in cost of paying for PSLs into ticket price and then charge markup.

[Einstein]

9 minutes ago, Punching Bag said:

 

Ticket agencies appear to - they factor in cost of paying for PSLs into ticket price and then charge markup.

 

This is exactly why fans get poked in the eye regardless of whether they purchase a PSL or not.

 

[Kirby Jackson]

8 minutes ago, Punching Bag said:

 

Ticket agencies appear to - they factor in cost of paying for PSLs into ticket price and then charge markup.

Fair 

 

I should have said that no one likes them. Owners like PSLs. Ticketmaster, StubHub, etc.. love ticketing fees. It feels like they continue to go up too. You buy a $70 ticket and pay $30 in ticketing fees.

[Augie]

5 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

This is exactly why fans get poked in the eye regardless of whether they purchase a PSL or not.

 

 

I only get poked if I choose to get poked. I don’t see this as changing my habits at all. I’m not emotional about it, but it will just be a bit more expensive. 

[Royale with Cheese]

Isn’t it funny that the person who gloated the most about their wealth is having the biggest issue with extra fees?

[Punching Bag]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Isn’t it funny that the person who gloated the most about their wealth is having the biggest issue with extra fees?

 

Ebenezer Scrooge was a very rich man and way he did it was making sure he paid as little as possible.

2 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

Well, it’s not surprising he gave away the farm - he was receiving a lot of manual stimulation that warped his thinking. 

 

He also did it after Hartford backed out and his partners did as well.

He recovered the money in costs of suites which is a lot easier to sell in Boston.

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, Punching Bag said:

 

Ebenezer Scrooge was a very rich man and way he did it was making sure he paid as little as possible.

I know some incredibly wealthy people personally and I can vouch for their spending habits. They didn’t get wealthy by spending money. At least not on things like Bills tickets. 

[ProcessTruster]

16 hours ago, DieHardFan said:

Not wondering, genius. Responding to @ProcessTruster re his concern that the stadium WILL be filled with resold tickets once PSLs are in effect.

 

Probably difficult to understand what a poster is saying when you diarrah post responses to every comment made.

I'm just reflecting what I've seen with my own eyes in other stadiums where the ticket prices are sky high on top of PSLs.  The whole vibe is different.   Home team fans looking sideways at 10s of thousands of opposition fans, it's weird.  All bc PSL owners are dumping half their tickets each season.   andthis will happen in the new stadium for sure.   For example, all you had to do was watch the Leafs/Sabres game yesterday.    Just llke that .  that is what it will be like.  

[SoCal Deek]

10 hours ago, mrags said:

I know some incredibly wealthy people personally and I can vouch for their spending habits. They didn’t get wealthy by spending money. At least not on things like Bills tickets. 

Actually, you get wealthy by spending way less money than you take in. This is true no matter how much you make, and the earlier in life you learn that lesson the wealthier you will end up. If buying Bills tickets doesn’t impact that most basic of equations, you’ll be just fine. 

[zow2]

I’ve used to have two PSL’s for another team several years ago in the area I live. PSL’s are like owning a piece of real estate. It appreciates or depreciates depending on the team, market conditions, etc.. People are constantly putting them up for sale and/or buying them. When you buy or sell PSL’s a 3rd party who represents the team brokers the deal and its very official when the PSL gets transferred, then you own it for life until you decide to sell.

[Saratoga Fan]

14 hours ago, Punching Bag said:

 

Ticket agencies appear to - they factor in cost of paying for PSLs into ticket price and then charge markup.

Ticket agencies charge what the market will bear. 

[CodeMonkey]

14 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Isn’t it funny that the person who gloated the most about their wealth is having the biggest issue with extra fees?

Most who have "considerable wealth" didn't get there by blindly and stupidly allowing themselves to get raped by businesses.

 

They had a small business owner on the news here recently who has 8 box seats seasons, has had them for years.  His ticket rep told him the PSL for him would be $400K, which his business could not afford.  The owner asked if there was some kind of discount available and was told no.  The choice was to pay or give up some or all of the seats. The rep did offer up the contact info for a place to take out a loan (from which I suspect the Bills get a kickback). 

 

That's what the NFL has come to, pricing themselves out of reach to blue collar fans.  The NFL has shown its insatiable greed for some time now, but I (probably stupidly) was expecting more from a team in a blue collar town like Buffalo.  

1 hour ago, Saratoga Fan said:

Ticket agencies charge what the market will bear. 

As do the teams themselves.

 

Bottom line, if you don't like it don't pay.  That's all the NFL cares about quite frankly, when it affects their bottom line. 

Edited March 31 by CodeMonkey

[Einstein]

15 hours ago, Punching Bag said:

 

Ebenezer Scrooge was a very rich man and way he did it was making sure he paid as little as possible.

 

Yeah that was an odd post by Royale. He clearly does not know many wealthy people.

 

The billionaire Pegula’s even implied to PSE employees making likely $60k per year that they would be fired (to save money) before the Pegula’s would let their family life (vacations, etc) be hampered.
 

Edited March 31 by Einstein