Do The Bills Have Enough "Elite" Talent?

[Matt_In_NH]

Agree with the premise here, this is why we should not give big dollars to good players like Knox and Gabe Davis.

[Sweats]

1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said:

Was he ever a top 3-4 receiver in the league?

 

Maybe 2020, on the fringe.

 

Probably was borderline elite then, but he's definitely not now, that's for sure 

 

 

 

I actually think he was borderline elite when he was with Minnesota, but not much he has done since coming here has shown to me that he is in the elite category on this roster.

Good, sometimes great and even dependable, but i don't see elite.

I see a fantastic route runner who understands assignments and the intricacies of the game, but his age is catching up with him and his ability to create separation and YAC has diminished on an almost shocking level lately.

[Toyo321]

No, and the draft this year has to be the best draft they have had in the last 7 years.  They need to restock the pool with young talent, that can make a difference on the field.

 

We have had very little of this type of talent from the draft in the past 7 years.

 

We have had a good player here and there, but seldomly has it been a home run type of draft with multiple game changing players.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Was he ever a top 3-4 receiver in the league?

 

Maybe 2020, on the fringe.

 

Probably was borderline elite then, but he's definitely not now, that's for sure 

 

Yes. 2020-2022. He was never the best receiver in the NFL but he was for a period absolutely the best route runner in the league and a sure fire top 5 guy overall. He wasn't that guy for much of last year. Working out how and why is the task the team has.

[Buffalo03]

15 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Comparing to the chiefs and 49ers the 2 SB teams, here's how I'm going to categorize as elite:

 

-Made 1st team/2nd all pro last year

-Top 3/4 at position. (For example, Josh and Mahomes are elite even though they didn't get voted all pros)

 

So for the bills I got 3 players but technically only 2 last year cause the Milano injury.

 

-Josh, Milano, Taron. 

Chiefs: 7 players 

 

-Mahomes, Kelce, thuney, humphries, C Jones, Mcduffie, Sneed

 

49ers: Hufanga got hurt so technically 7 players

 

-Mccafery, Aiyuk, T Williams, Kittle, Bosa, Warner, Hufanga, Chardavious Ward

(I didn't include their fullback)

 

So in the playoffs if you factor in injuries, bills had 2 "elite" players based on the all pro selection/my opinion.

 

Chiefs 7

 

And 49ers 7 with the Hufanga injury.

 

While the bills have a lot of good to very good players, I really think they are missing some game breakers on this team.

 

What do you guys think?

I don't think you can call Kittle elite anymore and Aiyuk certainly isn't elite. He is a very good player but not elite so you can knock that down to 5

 

The Chiefs, I don't know if Thuney is actually elite. I don't think McDuffie is. Sneed is but not McDuffie so again, knock it down to 5

 

The Bills have Allen, Milano and in my opinion Bernard and Kincaid are certainly trending in that direction. I still for now would put Diggs there but I think he kinda falling out of it 

 

So let's not make it seem like the 49ers or Chiefs are that much better than us. A few plays go differently in that playoff game and the Chiefs are watching us play Baltimore in the Championship game. I swear, people that think the Chiefs and 49ers are far and away better must think we would lose 45-10 to both teams. We can beat both if we don't make our own mistakes. That's just truth

Edited March 11 by Buffalo03

[JerseyBills]

Josh,Taron,Milano,Diggs,Douglas

 

Borderline- Dawkins,Kincaid,Bernard,Oliver,Miller 

[BillsFan130]

25 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

I don't think you can call Kittle elite anymore and Aiyuk certainly isn't elite. He is a very good player but not elite so you can knock that down to 5

 

The Chiefs, I don't know if Thuney is actually elite. I don't think McDuffie is. Sneed is but not McDuffie so again, knock it down to 5

 

The Bills have Allen, Milano and in my opinion Bernard and Kincaid are certainly trending in that direction. I still for now would put Diggs there but I think he kinda falling out of it 

 

So let's not make it seem like the 49ers or Chiefs are that much better than us. A few plays go differently in that playoff game and the Chiefs are watching us play Baltimore in the Championship game. I swear, people that think the Chiefs and 49ers are far and away better must think we would lose 45-10 to both teams. We can beat both if we don't make our own mistakes. That's just truth

Please read my criteria on how i put guys elite- it's the first thing I stated in my post

[Buffalo03]

1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said:

Please read my criteria on how i put guys elite- it's the first thing I stated in my post

Aiyuk is not elite. Period. Neither is McDuffie or Thuney so it shouldn't matter what the criteria is

[BillsFan130]

39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes. 2020-2022. He was never the best receiver in the NFL but he was for a period absolutely the best route runner in the league and a sure fire top 5 guy overall. He wasn't that guy for much of last year. Working out how and why is the task the team has.

Ya he was probably around 5- For elite for my criteria, I personally used top 3-4 at the position . 
 

That's why I said borderline elite. It just depends what your definition of elite is 

1 minute ago, Buffalo03 said:

Aiyuk is not elite. Period. Neither is McDuffie or Thuney so it shouldn't matter what the criteria is

That's your opinion.  I wanted some objectivity to the criteria and one thing is for certain is all those guys made all pros last season.

 

If you disagree with my criteria, fair enough but I think there has to be some objectivity to this

[Buffalo03]

5 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ya he was probably around 5- For elite for my criteria, I personally used top 3-4 at the position . 
 

That's why I said borderline elite. It just depends what your definition of elite is 

That's your opinion.  I wanted some objectivity to the criteria and one thing is for certain is all those guys made all pros last season.

 

If you disagree with my criteria, fair enough but I think there has to be some objectivity to this

So, your Criteria puts Aiyuk on the same level as Justin Jefferson, Jamaar Chase, CeeDee Lamb, DeVante Adams, AJ Brown? Sorry but I disagree because disagreeing would be right, not just an opinion lol

Edited March 11 by Buffalo03

[BillsFan130]

Just now, Buffalo03 said:

So, your Criteria puts Aiyuk on the same level as Justin Jefferson, Jamaar Chase, CeeDee Lamb, DeVante Adams, AJ Brown? Sorry but I disagree because disagreeing would be right, not just an opinion lol

You have deeply studied Aiyuk, Thuney, Mcduffie relative to all the other players at their positions , or are you just basing it on "name recognition "?

 

You must have a lot of time on your hands if you can study all those guys every play and compare them to other players at their relative position
 

[Buffalo03]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

You have deeply studied Aiyuk, Thuney, Mcduffie relative to all the other players at their positions , or are you just basing it on "name recognition "?

 

You must have a lot of time on your hands if you can study all those guys every play and compare them to other players at their relative position
 

Are you high when you watch games? I don't need to study them deeply to know that Aiyuk is not on those guys levels. You would have to be blind to not see it. There are easily 15 to 20 WRs that I or anyone would put in front of Aiyuk. He's good but he isn't elite. Your criteria is extremely flawed

[MiracleAtRich1393]

This is why I would make a huge move up as far as #6 if Nabers is still there. I think he will be elite in short order for the next 8 years or so, the first half of which would be on a cost-controlled deal. Will have to use some resources to make it happen of course, but I don't see us obtaining another "elite" WR via free agency any time soon, so make it happen through the draft.

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, Buffalo03 said:

Are you high when you watch games? I don't need to study them deeply to know that Aiyuk is not on those guys levels. You would have to be blind to not see it. There are easily 15 to 20 WRs that I or anyone would put in front of Aiyuk. He's good but he isn't elite. Your criteria is extremely flawed

Ok let's compare to some of the guys you said last year.

 

Jefferson- basically missed all season. 
Adams- Aiyuk had more yards/tds

Chase- Aiyuk had more yards/tds.

So once again- you are basing it off name recognition with absolutely 0 objectivity to back up what you're saying based on the 2023 nfl season.

[SCBills]

I think elite also applies to positional value.  Milano, when healthy, is elite  at LB... but I mean.. ok.. he's a linebacker.  

 

Chiefs are currently elite at QB, TE, DT and CB.  And while TE typically isn't it, when you have an All-Time great, it's a bit different. 

[Buffalo03]

1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ok let's compare to some of the guys you said last year.

 

Jefferson- basically missed all season. 
Adams- Aiyuk had more yards/tds

Chase- Aiyuk had more yards/tds.

So once again- you are basing it off name recognition with absolutely 0 objectivity to back up what you're saying based on the 2023 nfl season.

So, Jefferson missed a lot of last season. That puts Aiyuk right on par. Got it. Chase also had Jake Browning throwing to him for half the season. DeVante Adams had Aiden O'Connell throwing to him for a lot of the season along with other retreads. The fact that Aiyui had more yards means nothing. He is not on their level. It's not name recognition, they are better players. Those guys are the best of the best in this league. Aiyuk is not there yet. Again, very good player, not an elite player

[Warriorspikes51]

There are a few elite players we could add that are probably within our price range.

DJ Reader & Derrick Henry 

[BillsFan130]

Just now, Buffalo03 said:

So, Jefferson missed a lot of last season. That puts Aiyuk right on par. Got it. Chase also had Jake Browning throwing to him for half the season. DeVante Adams had Aiden O'Connell throwing to him for a lot of the season along with other retreads. The fact that Aiyui had more yards means nothing. He is not on their level. It's not name recognition, they are better players. Those guys are the best of the best in this league. Aiyuk is not there yet. Again, very good player, not an elite player

Ok so now we are going to put other circumstances into it because you have no other thing to back up what you're saying?

 

It's not 2022. Or 2021. Aiyuk was an absolute stud last year and was better than Jefferson (due to injury), chase and adams.

 

I'm not gonna reply back unless you have any objective thing to state , opposed to your argument,"trust me bro".

 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ok so now we are going to put other circumstances into it because you have no other thing to back up what you're saying?

 

It's not 2022. Or 2021. Aiyuk was an absolute stud last year and was better than Jefferson (due to injury), chase and adams.

 

I'm not gonna reply back unless you have any objective thing to state , opposed to your argument,"trust me bro".

 

 

 

I don't think Aiyuk is elite either. It isn't about numbers for me so much as it is about film. He is just a tick below an elite level talent. He doesn't dominate corners in that same way. 

 

On the other two - Thuney 100% is elite. And so is McDuffie (but with the caveat that he is an elite slot corner. He is not a proven elite boundary corner).

[BillsFan130]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think Aiyuk is elite either. It isn't about numbers for me so much as it is about film. He is just a tick below an elite level talent. He doesn't dominate corners in that same way. 

 

On the other two - Thuney 100% is elite. And so is McDuffie (but with the caveat that he is an elite slot corner. He is not a proven elite boundary corner).

To be honest I don't think he is elite in like a top 5 guy either, but he definitely deserved getting to the all pro team last year. Like he was def better than Adams and chase last year who are considered "elite" receivers.

 

Agreed on thuney and Mcduffie 

[Buffalo03]

10 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ok so now we are going to put other circumstances into it because you have no other thing to back up what you're saying?

 

It's not 2022. Or 2021. Aiyuk was an absolute stud last year and was better than Jefferson (due to injury), chase and adams.

 

I'm not gonna reply back unless you have any objective thing to state , opposed to your argument,"trust me bro".

 

 

So, a backup QB throwing to 2 of those guys for half the season is a bad argument? That is going to affect their season a little bit. I hate to break it to you. It's not "trust me, bro". It's for real lol. Let me ask you, you're running a franchise. You get offered Chase or Aiyuk in a trade and you can only have one, which one you picking? You get offered Ayuik or Justin Jefferson. Which one are you picking? And I'll say the same with any of the other WRs. I will say, I would take Purdy throwing to Aiyuk before Browning over Chase but I am not taking them over Burrow to Chase. I am also taking an elite QB throwing to Adams over Purdy to Aiyuk. I would take Jefferson with pretty much anyone (when healthy) because that matters. Like bro, come on. I know you wanna be right but you are simply not

Edited March 11 by Buffalo03

[BillsFan130]

Just now, Buffalo03 said:

So, a backup QB throwing to 2 of those guys for half the season is a bad argument? That is going to affect their season a little bit. I hate to break it to you. It's not "trust me, bro". It's for real lol. Let me ask you, you're running a franchise. You get offered Chase or Aiyuk in a trade and you can only have one, which one you picking? You get offered Ayuik or Justing Jefferson. Which one are you picking. And I'll say the same with any of the other WRs. I will say, I would take Purdy throwing to Aiyuk before Browning over Chase but I am not taking them over Burrow to Chase. I am also taking an elite QB throwing to Adams over Purdy to Aiyuk. I would take Jefferson with pretty much anyone (when healthy) because that matters. Like bro, come on. I know you wanna be right but you are simply not

Chase for sure. Once again you're basing 2023 vs career.... 

 

In 2023 Aiyuk had a better year than chase. You really cannot argue otherwise 

[TFBillsfan]

For all the success they’ve had, the lack of true playmakers/difference makers combined with questionable coaching in crucial situations has kept them from getting over the hump.

 

Offensively, outside of Josh, no one else puts additional pressure on the D. It’s a well rounded unit but they need reliable playmakers! They have a lot of solid players but need to add a few more studs!

 

Defensively, we lack a true shutdown corner, our DL goes AWOL far too often and no one requires a double team.  It continues to show up in the playoffs against good teams.

 

This years draft is critical for Beane to get right. He needs to hit on WR, DL and S with players that make an immediate impact. No two year ramp up!

[Buffalo03]

43 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Chase for sure. Once again you're basing 2023 vs career.... 

 

In 2023 Aiyuk had a better year than chase. You really cannot argue otherwise 

He had a better year because Chase didn’t have his elite QB throwing to him for half the season but that's beside the point. Aiyuk was in the 49ers dog house just 2 years ago and wasn't getting playing time and was even the subject of trade rumors. He has come on but I wouldn't put him as elite right now

[BillsFan130]

12 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

He had a better year because Chase didn’t have his elite QB throwing to him for half the season but that's beside the point. Aiyuk was in the 49ers dog house just 2 years ago and wasn't getting playing time and was even the subject of trade rumors. He has come on but I wouldn't put him as elite right now

You can't have it both ways though...

 

Burrow is obviously 10x better than Purdy/jimmy g, the QBs Aiyuk has had.

 

If your argument is "chase needs his elite QB to get him his elite stats".

 

What does that say about Aiyuk then, who put up big numbers this year with an average QB at best?

 

You see my point?

[Niagara Dude]

14 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Who is Aaron?

LMAO.... Replace the A with T and he is still no where near elite

[MrJanuary]

Wait, I thought we had a better roster than KC. At least that's what a lot of posters here have said...

[Donuts and Doritos]

Don't know - we haven't gotten through free agency or the draft yet. Ask in August after final cuts.

[Nephilim17]

Aside from Josh Allen, I see elite potential from the following:
 

Kincaid
Cook

Torrence

Oliver

Milano (may already be elite)

Johnson as nickel CB?

A fair number of solid to good players beyond that. If we get a blue-chip WR and one other player, maybe DE or safety, I'd feel a lot better about the number of difference makers on this team.

[colin]

before he got hurt, T bernard was filling up the stat sheet like a monster.

 

douglas had sick stats for us for how short he was with us, he looked the part too.

 

oliver had top level DT stats.

 

allen speaks for himself, and the sack/win rate % for our Oline shows them to be a top tier unit.

 

cook had as mentioned top 3 YFS, and he  kinda didn't play for the dorsey part of the season.

 

not to mention Taron who was voted 2nd all pro, and milano who in the prior season was an all pro.

 

im not saying these guys are elite (except josh, who i fully think is the goat) but in terms of observed performance they were in the proximity of the category at least. 

 

we have to fill in a starting safety, find some way to (continue to) rush the passer, and get another playmaker (a real one) in the passing game on O and then we have the roster we need to have won it all the past 3 seasons.

 

on D, we have to smarten up and not become total pushover goofs in the playoffs, injuries basically made us crap out vs kc, but my boy dorian came in and showed us aj klein shoulda been fishing, not playing.  

 

 

 

 

[mjt328]

5 hours ago, Sweats said:

I actually don't think Diggs is elite. I think he's good, sometimes great, but elite?......he's not a player you can build a franchise around.

He was good in Minnesota and he's been good at times here, but i certainly wouldn't put him in the category of elite.

 

Wow.  It's amazing how quickly the fanbase has turned on Diggs.

 

Yes, he was absolutely an elite WR from 2020 until the midway point last year.  Legit argument for the best route-runner in the league.  Will possibly go down as the best WR in Buffalo Bills history, even over Hall of Famer Andre Reed.

 

Not sure there is a single WR in the league I would "build a franchise" around.  That's something you pretty much reserve for Quarterbacks and the rare Pass Rusher (TJ Watt, Micah Parsons, etc.)

 

[hondo in seattle]

I'm very appreciative of Beane's work.  He took a crap roster and built the franchise into a perennial contender.  

 

But this thread underscored my problem with his work thus far: not enough difference-makers.  The best teams have more elite game-changing type players than we do.

 

Some will rail against this opinion, but I think this is the main reason we haven't won a Lombardi.  McD hasn't held us back.  Beane just hasn't - yet - given him a SB-worthy roster.  

[BillsFan130]

3 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Don't know - we haven't gotten through free agency or the draft yet. Ask in August after final cuts.

Fair, but with the bills cap situation, I would say it's extremely unlikely the bills are able to add an elite impact player in 2024

[Donuts and Doritos]

27 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Fair, but with the bills cap situation, I would say it's extremely unlikely the bills are able to add an elite impact player in 2024

Perhaps in Free Agency. But the Draft could give us a Justin Jefferson OR it could give us another Kaiir Elam. We won't know until after. This is a good question, but better once we know who's going to be on the team. 

[Johnnycage46]

22 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Comparing to the chiefs and 49ers the 2 SB teams, here's how I'm going to categorize as elite:

 

-Made 1st team/2nd all pro last year

-Top 3/4 at position. (For example, Josh and Mahomes are elite even though they didn't get voted all pros)

 

So for the bills I got 3 players but technically only 2 last year cause the Milano injury.

 

-Josh, Milano, Taron. 

Chiefs: 7 players 

 

-Mahomes, Kelce, thuney, humphries, C Jones, Mcduffie, Sneed

 

49ers: Hufanga got hurt so technically 7 players

 

-Mccafery, Aiyuk, T Williams, Kittle, Bosa, Warner, Hufanga, Chardavious Ward

(I didn't include their fullback)

 

So in the playoffs if you factor in injuries, bills had 2 "elite" players based on the all pro selection/my opinion.

 

Chiefs 7

 

And 49ers 7 with the Hufanga injury.

 

While the bills have a lot of good to very good players, I really think they are missing some game breakers on this team.

 

What do you guys think?

I think weighting has to factor in rather than just total number of "elite" players.

 

For instance, having 1 elite player like Allen is worth a lot more than 1 elite linebacker.

 

But we do not have many "elite" players...we have done well with Allen being elite and making up for a lack of elite players elsewhere.

 

For instance, I think if Allen were on SF they would have several rings in the last few years based on their elite talent at multiple positions coupled with the overwhelming weight of having an elite QB.

[BillsFan130]

1 hour ago, Johnnycage46 said:

I think weighting has to factor in rather than just total number of "elite" players.

 

For instance, having 1 elite player like Allen is worth a lot more than 1 elite linebacker.

 

But we do not have many "elite" players...we have done well with Allen being elite and making up for a lack of elite players elsewhere.

 

For instance, I think if Allen were on SF they would have several rings in the last few years based on their elite talent at multiple positions coupled with the overwhelming weight of having an elite QB.

Fair points 

[Don Otreply]

No, not even close, we have like three guys on any given year that can be considered elite, to many mid to slightly above mid level guys that generally get paid to much on hope and “upside”.  Still a good team but that’s because of Allen’s never say die attitude, 

[Thurman#1]

On 3/11/2024 at 8:10 AM, Warriorspikes51 said:

Josh Allen makes up for it as much as he can

 

the only other elite player is Milano 

 

Ed Oliver & Taron Johnson are close

 

Kincaid could be elite.

 

Diggs could be elite again, we’ll see.

 

 

 

 

I think Taron is up there right now. Otherwise this is pretty on-target. My guess is we'll see Diggs up there again next year.

 

The Bills have put together a really good roster across the board. No weaknesses till the defensive injuries started happening. You can win SBs that way if one of your elite guys is your QB.

 

5 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Fair, but with the bills cap situation, I would say it's extremely unlikely the bills are able to add an elite impact player in 2024

 

 

Add from outside? Possible. You never know.

 

But guys like Oliver, Torrence and Kincaid could very possibly move up to that tier. And Diggs could get back to closer to his usual level and do the same.

 

Edited March 12 by Thurman#1

[BigDingus]

No, we have nowhere near enough "elite" talent.

 

Elite:

1. Josh Allen

2. Matt Milano (when healthy)

 

Maybe Elite:

1. Stefon Diggs - Used to be elite, but age or commitment is slowing him down

2. Ed Oliver - Great season last year, but didn't make an impact in the KC game (unlike Chris Jones on the opposite side of the field)

 

There are some good players a tier below, but not "elite."

 

Go back a few years, and White, Hyde & Poyer would definitely be on that list. And with our cap situation, Beane will have to draft extremely well this year to fix that issue.

[papazoid]

define "elite" ??  top 5 ??....top 10 in league at their position ?

 

Josh Top 2 ( i say #1, mahomes just on better team & coaching))

Milano Top 5

Diggs Top 10 (add a legit wr2 and would push Top 5 again)

Rousseau Top 15 (don't sleep on his all around play)

Rasul Top 15

Taron Top 20

Von Top 25 ( i sure hope so, gotta get healthy)

Epenesa Top 30 (will be breakout player of 2024)

Oliver Top 30 (had his best season yet in 2023, run def needs to be better)