GoBills808 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 3 hours ago, FireChans said: Hm, I don’t think so. I think the homeruns CAN come from anywhere, but I gotta figure your best chance is still in the first 60 picks. To me, Benford, Bernard (so far), Shakir are all good picks. It’s great to get NFL talent in the late rounds. None of them are homeruns. To me, a homerun is “would this player have been a great pick no matter what round you took them in.” Milano was a homerun. He’s a more impressive homerun bc he was a fifth rounder, but if he was a late second rounder, he’d still be a phenomenal pick. If you look at the difference between us and KC, or the Niners, they have way more homeruns, not just solid picks. It’s the one black mark against Beane. The best year of players this regime has brought in was unquestionably 2017. White, Milano, Dawkins, Poyer, Hyde have been 5 of our 7 best players for 7 years. It’s why the roster is old. It’s why the cap needs to be stretched now. Greg is just another guy we hoped could be one of our best players but isn’t. There are a lot of top edge guys who go late They can be found 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Paulson Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 On 2/19/2024 at 10:20 AM, UConn James said: I’d like to see how he does with a new DL coach. Eric Washington was given a lot of prime resources and we saw little return until Ed came on this year. agreed, never bought the hype on Washington. the d line consistently underachieved for the amount of investment made. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somnus00 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 I like Rousseau. Elite run defender as a DE. Okay as a pass rusher. The tricky part is the money. The 5th year option means a sizeable bump in pay, which then creates an expectation for the next contract. If my understanding is correct, the 5th year option for Groot would put him at the average of the 3 - 25 highest paid DEs in the league. Is he worth that much? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweats Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Just now, somnus00 said: I like Rousseau. Elite run defender as a DE. Okay as a pass rusher. The tricky part is the money. The 5th year option means a sizeable bump in pay, which then creates an expectation for the next contract. If my understanding is correct, the 5th year option for Groot would put him at the average of the 3 - 25 highest paid DEs in the league. Is he worth that much? And, that's the dilemma we're having on the boards these days.....what do you pay him if you want to extend him?....what's he worth? I think ole Beane is gonna spin his wheel-o-loot and see what he comes up with. To me, that's how i envision how he crunches the numbers.....i might be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaadThingsMan Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Nah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 42 minutes ago, somnus00 said: I like Rousseau. Elite run defender as a DE. Okay as a pass rusher. The tricky part is the money. The 5th year option means a sizeable bump in pay, which then creates an expectation for the next contract. If my understanding is correct, the 5th year option for Groot would put him at the average of the 3 - 25 highest paid DEs in the league. Is he worth that much? I thought it was more .. but The 5th year option is projected at $13.7m… it’s affordable and given the state of the DE room at the moment … Im pretty sure he will get it … https://overthecap.com/fifth-year-option-projections 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, Aussie Joe said: I thought it was more .. but The 5th year option is projected at $13.7m… it’s affordable and given the state of the DE room at the moment … Im pretty sure he will get it … https://overthecap.com/fifth-year-option-projections After the 5th year option, I would do a 4 yr/60 mil extension- which is similar to Oliver’s deal…Not great, but solid players…👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Just now, JaCrispy said: After the 5th year option, I would do a 4 yr/60 mil extension- which is similar to Oliver’s deal…Not great, but solid players…👍 At the very least … the 5th year option buys them more time to work out the future for Rousseau… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 He's worth picking up the 5th year option. He's not worth an extension Best case is probably a 4th round comp pick after that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 6 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: He's worth picking up the 5th year option. He's not worth an extension Best case is probably a 4th round comp pick after that Fans have to get over the “all or nothing” mentality. We will sign middle tier players. Rousseau as a $20 million edge is worth it. He’s good at everything. He’s exactly what you extend. I would compare him to Dion Dawkins after year 3-4. You extend Dawkins because he was good at everything and played one of the top positions in the league. Dawkins wasn’t great at anything but had no weaknesses. At the time of signing he was the 5th highest paid LT. Now his contract looks like a bargain. You sign these guys to top 5-10 contracts at their position. Soon they fall down the rankings. These are the players you love to keep. All around good players and won’t break the bank. If we compare to Edmunds. Edmunds was not all around a good player. He had limitations. The GM talked about those limitations publicly. He also played a position that imo is plug and play like RB. You can find LBs easily if you want one. Edited February 21 by Buffalo_Stampede 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Fans have to get over the “all or nothing” mentality. We will sign middle tier players. Rousseau as a $20 million edge is worth it. He’s good at everything. He’s exactly what you extend. I would compare him to Dion Dawkins after year 3-4. You extend Dawkins because he was good at everything and played one of the top positions in the league. Dawkins wasn’t great at anything but had no weaknesses. At the time of signing he was the 5th highest paid LT. Now his contract looks like a bargain. You sign these guys to top 5-10 contracts at their position. Soon they fall down the rankings. These are the players you love to keep. All around good players and won’t break the bank. If we compare to Edmunds. Edmunds was not all around a good player. He had limitations. The GM talked about those limitations publicly. He also played a position that imo is plug and play like RB. You can find LBs easily if you want one. He is a good player. He is just not a good enough pass rusher. Davis is good too. But neither have shown enough to warrant long term investment. They can replace with cheaper talent two years from now. And if he explodes over the next 2 years then tag him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: He is a good player. He is just not a good enough pass rusher. Davis is good too. But neither have shown enough to warrant long term investment. They can replace with cheaper talent two years from now. And if he explodes over the next 2 years then tag him. Davis? As in Gabe Davis? Davis is the exact opposite. What in the world are we doing here? Where does Rousseau hurt the defense? We never complain about Rousseau. All we say is he hasn’t taken the next step as an elite pass rusher. Gabe Davis many believe hurts the offense, or holds back the offense. It’s easy to replace Rousseau? Read the board, all we talk about is all the edge players we draft or sign. It’s not easy. I wish we had more Rousseau’s. Epenesa is a lot like Gabe Davis. He hurts the defense but has big plays at times. He can’t defend the run. He is inconsistent as a pass rusher. Can’t set the edge. Edited February 21 by Buffalo_Stampede 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 21 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said: He needs to become more of pass rusher. He’s a good run defender but you want your edge guys to get after the QB Sacks aren't the only measure of a DE's pass rushing ability. Rousseau does get after the QB. He not only had 18 QB hits in 2023, but he also disrupted passing lanes, forced QBs to hurry passes, and knocked down passes. More importantly, Rousseau is a good all-around DLer who plays the run well. Teams need those kinds of DEs as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilthyBeast Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Just thinking more about Groot and this dline as a whole, the fact that this GM and defensive minded head coach has never drafted a player that has managed double digits sacks in a season has me dumbfounded. Yes Floyd did it this year as a FA (despite next to nothing the 2nd half of the season and playoffs) and Miller was certainly on pace for it before his injury in 2022, but all these other draft picks really haven't come close except for Oliver this year. And that's what scares me most about the draft this year because I'm willing to bet they go dline once again in the first round despite all the talk about WR and other areas of need. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 3 hours ago, FilthyBeast said: Just thinking more about Groot and this dline as a whole, the fact that this GM and defensive minded head coach has never drafted a player that has managed double digits sacks in a season has me dumbfounded. Yes Floyd did it this year as a FA (despite next to nothing the 2nd half of the season and playoffs) and Miller was certainly on pace for it before his injury in 2022, but all these other draft picks really haven't come close except for Oliver this year. And that's what scares me most about the draft this year because I'm willing to bet they go dline once again in the first round despite all the talk about WR and other areas of need. The Bills use a DL rotation so their best Dlinemen don't get as many reps as the best Dlinemen on teams that usually only sub when necessary. That can certainly impact sack stats, especially for guys who miss a couple of games or who play hurt for several games. I don't know which philosophy is best, but the Bills system works for them with the players they have and seem to like; they had a sound defense this past season despite suffering key injuries on defense. It may be that Beane and McDermott envision a defense where the whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts. As for the draft, I doubt that the Bills draft a DE in the first round simply because the edge rushers with 1st round grades will be long gone when the Bills get their shot. I wouldn't be surprised to see them use a later pick on one, however. When they realized that Edmunds wasn't going to be the guy at MLB they drafted him to be, they drafted Bernard in the third round in 2022. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty98 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Just to throw this out in regards to how raw of a DE he is...this will be his 6th season at DE. He was a LB/S in highschool and WR. At Miami he moved to DE. He's still learning how to play the position as a pass rusher. He is a player you extend as his second contract will be where his talent and ability will be fully honed in and will be a game changer. 8-10 sacks a year will be a bench for him, plus the ability to set your edge. He's your ideal DE, edge setter and can rush the passer effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 He's a quality edge player, not a game changer but a good starter, with his 5th-year option I would hope the Bills pick it up and lock him in for 2 more seasons. Two more seasons of good production are nice to have at a critical position. I suspect the front office will approach the situation as they did with Ed Oliver, allow him to play out his 4th season, and assess his production and offer him a quality extension if he shows more progress in year four. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 20 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: He's worth picking up the 5th year option. He's not worth an extension Best case is probably a 4th round comp pick after that That is absolutely not the best case The best case is that he turns into an top edge rusher in the league can we pay him accordingly? People are getting a little bit carried away with this comp formula thing. The cases are whenever you draft players groom them and retain them because they’re good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 21 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: That is absolutely not the best case The best case is that he turns into an top edge rusher in the league can we pay him accordingly? People are getting a little bit carried away with this comp formula thing. The cases are whenever you draft players groom them and retain them because they’re good. He's never going to be a top edge rusher. He would have shown that by now. But on the off chance he will then you can tag him. He has two years at a reasonable price to prove he is anything more than an average DE. The comp pick is just added bonus for not taking on another bloated contract for an average player. I assume you are happy they got an extra third round pick by letting Edmunds walk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: He's never going to be a top edge rusher. He would have shown that by now. But on the off chance he will then you can tag him. He has two years at a reasonable price to prove he is anything more than an average DE. The comp pick is just added bonus for not taking on another bloated contract for an average player. I assume you are happy they got an extra third round pick by letting Edmunds walk. Gregory Russo is not an average player they do more than just rush the passer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Looking back Oliver was though of the same way. This year he took a big step. I could see Rousseau having a similar trajectory. His advance stats are solid and he is the best all all around edge player on the roster by a margin imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returntoglory Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 It's time to grow concerned about our entire Defense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mat68 said: Looking back Oliver was though of the same way. This year he took a big step. I could see Rousseau having a similar trajectory. His advance stats are solid and he is the best all all around edge player on the roster by a margin imo. Generally, DTs like Oliver take longer to come into their own than DEs simply because the learning curve for interior linemen tends to be longer than for the edge rushers; there's more to learn in the pro game than in college. That doesn't mean that Rousseau can't improve his sack numbers, but it seems that he's not real likely to do so. However, that doesn't bother me much because he's a good DE against both the pass and the run. Edited February 23 by SoTier 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDingus Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1st round picks are stll 1st round picks though... They're all expected to be good players. When you see 2nd round, 3rd round, 4th round, etc. picks breaking out & becoming stars every year, you'd like to think your team will find those guys too. But if not, you'd at least hope they hit on their 1st rounders. It's not enough to just avoid busts, it's also avoiding situations like Sammy Watkins... trading away extra picks & moving up for a guy who ends up being worse than several other WRs that came later. You also don't want to settle for "serviceable" or "solid." You want your 1st rounders to make a big impact. I think Greg has been pretty good. But the organization went Into that draft hellbent on fixing the pass rush to stop the Chiefs, then failed so hard they immediately spent 100+ million on a 33 year old DE the next off-season. That's a lot of money & resources spent to get a "solid" or "pretty good" pass rush. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Groot just desperately needs to stay healthy for a full season. When he is, he's a very dynamic starting DE. I agree with other posters comparisons to Oliver. Oliver has actually played quite well for a number of years, but kept getting banged up during seasons (for different reasons than Rousseau mind you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just heard a really good stat on Joe B's live roster primer on the Athletic. As a rookie Rousseau playes 100% left end. In 2022 it was 83% In 2023 it was only 45% He played a LOT more right end which is not his strongest position to accomodate Floyd and Von who both also wanna play left end. Not saying it completely explains why his production isn't higher but definitely worth considering. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: Just heard a really good stat on Joe B's live roster primer on the Athletic. As a rookie Rousseau playes 100% left end. In 2022 it was 83% In 2023 it was only 45% He played a LOT more right end which is not his strongest position to accomodate Floyd and Von who both also wanna play left end. Not saying it completely explains why his production isn't higher but definitely worth considering. Hopefully Von plays more left bench next year, or isn’t on the team at all, and we don’t have to worry about this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just now, FireChans said: Hopefully Von plays more left bench next year, or isn’t on the team at all, and we don’t have to worry about this. I just asked Joe what his level of confidence is in Von having any impact at all in 2024 - his answer? None whatsoever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I just asked Joe what his level of confidence is in Von having any impact at all in 2024 - his answer? None whatsoever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 6 hours ago, BigDingus said: 1st round picks are stll 1st round picks though... They're all expected to be good players. When you see 2nd round, 3rd round, 4th round, etc. picks breaking out & becoming stars every year, you'd like to think your team will find those guys too. But if not, you'd at least hope they hit on their 1st rounders. It's not enough to just avoid busts, it's also avoiding situations like Sammy Watkins... trading away extra picks & moving up for a guy who ends up being worse than several other WRs that came later. You also don't want to settle for "serviceable" or "solid." You want your 1st rounders to make a big impact. I think Greg has been pretty good. But the organization went Into that draft hellbent on fixing the pass rush to stop the Chiefs, then failed so hard they immediately spent 100+ million on a 33 year old DE the next off-season. That's a lot of money & resources spent to get a "solid" or "pretty good" pass rush. Rousseasu barring injury is a 10 year NFL starter at DE. Thats a hit. I think if he got the same snaps other top 15 DEs get his numbers would be closer to what you would hope for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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