Don Otreply Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Just now, FireChans said: If you don’t want to read TBD and the “meaningless chatter” in the off-season, there’s a big red X in the top right of the screen. I love meaningless off season chatter, I especially love it when folk take this nonsense seriously, 😁👍 everyone knows the Frenchman isn’t going anywhere for the next two seasons…, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, Don Otreply said: I love meaningless off season chatter, I especially love it when folk take this nonsense seriously, 😁👍 everyone knows the Frenchman isn’t going anywhere for the next two seasons…, The topic isn’t about if he’s “going anywhere.” Imagine complaining about a topic you misunderstood lmao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 As long as Rousseau’s camp doesn’t expect him to be paid like a top edge defender, then we have no problem. He’s an average to above average starter on the DL, probably not worth more than $13M/yr. Anything north of that I let him walk and take my comp pick. If he showed up in the biggest moments of the biggest games, I’d feel differently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Just now, Brand J said: As long as Rousseau’s camp doesn’t expect him to be paid like a top edge defender, then we have no problem. He’s an average to above average starter on the DL, probably not worth more than $13M/yr. Anything north of that I let him walk and take my comp pick. If he showed up in the biggest moments of the biggest games, I’d feel differently. Between Tre White, Matt Milano, and Ed Oliver, Beane has shown the ability to get our guys re-signed on incredibly team friendly deals. I'm hopinh he can work the same magic on Rousseau. But he will absolutely get more than $13M/year. We are talking a 2026-2029 contract with a cap likely over $300M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Between Tre White, Matt Milano, and Ed Oliver, Beane has shown the ability to get our guys re-signed on incredibly team friendly deals. I'm hopinh he can work the same magic on Rousseau. But he will absolutely get more than $13M/year. We are talking a 2026-2029 contract with a cap likely over $300M. My philosophy is simple when it comes to re-signing big ticket players: against the better teams, the ones we have to go through in the playoffs, has the player shown he can impact the game in the biggest moments? Does he usually have any impact on the game at all? If it’s a no, I let him go. Edited February 19 by Brand J 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 9 minutes ago, Brand J said: As long as Rousseau’s camp doesn’t expect him to be paid like a top edge defender, then we have no problem. He’s an average to above average starter on the DL, probably not worth more than $13M/yr. Anything north of that I let him walk and take my comp pick. If he showed up in the biggest moments of the biggest games, I’d feel differently. lol. Do people not know the best edge players are getting more than twice that? I don’t know how some people here would even build a team. You don’t get better letting a player like Rousseau walk. He has zero weaknesses. He’s a $20+ million edge player easily. He’s not a $30 million edge player. Parsons will get $30+ million. 6 minutes ago, Brand J said: My philosophy is simple when it comes to re-signing players: against the better teams, the ones we have to go through in the playoffs, has the player shown he can impact the game in the biggest moments? Does he usually have any impact on the game at all? If it’s a no, I let him go. I thought he had his best playoffs. No one else showed up on the DL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerBillsFan Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: He’s a very good player. What’s the concern? He defends everything. Good vs run and pass. He’s just not elite at anything yet. That's the problem, all the top picks,and FA money spent on the DL and no elite players to show for it. We thought Oliver was heading there, then his play dropped off esp. Vs. KC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Just now, SoonerBillsFan said: That's the problem, all the top picks,and FA money spent on the DL and no elite players to show for it. We thought Oliver was heading there, then his play dropped off esp. Vs. KC. Oliver didn’t have a good game. KC has a great interior. They won that battle for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerBillsFan Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said: Oliver didn’t have a good game. KC has a great interior. They won that battle for sure. Great players show up in the biggest games. Oliver is good, not great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: lol. Do people not know the best edge players are getting more than twice that? I don’t know how some people here would even build a team. You don’t get better letting a player like Rousseau walk. He has zero weaknesses. He’s a $20+ million edge player easily. He’s not a $30 million edge player. Parsons will get $30+ million. I thought he had his best playoffs. No one else showed up on the DL. You also don’t get better paying average to above average players $20M/yr. It’s the same reason why I said Edmunds had to walk and had Beane re-signed him I would’ve lost faith in him as a GM. Rousseau isn’t one of the best edge defenders in the league. Well, against the run, sure, but not against the pass and that’s what brings the money. He’s a capable starter at this point, nothing more, nothing less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 4 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said: Great players show up in the biggest games. Oliver is good, not great. Not going to argue. I think Rousseau is a much better player after year 3 than Oliver was. Rousseau is just good at everything. 1 minute ago, Brand J said: You also don’t get better paying average to above average players $20M/yr. It’s the same reason why I said Edmunds had to walk and had Beane re-signed him I would’ve lost faith in him as a GM. Rousseau isn’t one of the best edge defenders in the league. Well, against the run, sure, but not against the pass and that’s what brings the money. He’s a capable starter at this point, nothing more, nothing less. Rousseau is not average. Thats your problem. You draft good players and extend good players. Especially at positions of QB and edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juno999 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 He played hurt last year. Foot injury. Not worried about him as long as he healed up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Not going to argue. I think Rousseau is a much better player after year 3 than Oliver was. Rousseau is just good at everything. Rousseau is not average. Thats your problem. You draft good players and extend good players. Especially at positions of QB and edge. He’s an average pass rusher and that’s primarily how edges are judged, not on their ability to hold the point of the attack and play the run. He's still got time to figure it out in that department, but you don’t extend those guys to substantial contracts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 I am glad he is not my dad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Brand J said: He’s an average pass rusher and that’s primarily how edges are judged, not on their ability to hold the point of the attack and play the run. He's still got time to figure it out in that department, but you don’t extend those guys to substantial contracts. So you’re only extending great players. Got it. The top edge players will be topping out in the $30+ millions. There’s going to be a shift in the middle tier edge players. They will be $20 million players. Rousseau is exactly the type of player you extend. Edited February 19 by Buffalo_Stampede Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said: So you’re only extending great players. Got it. Here comes the straw man… I’m extending him based on his value as an edge defender and if that’s north of $13M/yr I’m letting him walk. Great players get substantial contracts commensurate to their value. That’s all I’ve ever said, read my posts again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, Brand J said: Here comes the straw man… I’m extending him based on his value as an edge defender and if that’s north of $13M/yr I’m letting him walk. Great players get substantial contracts commensurate to their value. That’s all I’ve ever said, read my posts again. Thats a ridiculous value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said: Thats a ridiculous value. So is $20M+/yr for what he brings. That’s even more ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) Rousseau was really raw when he came out … only had two years of a college if I remember correctly and sat out the season before he was a drafted because of the Covid situation …so maybe you can think he is still going through some development and can get better .. I would have liked to have seen better pass rush skills by now…not saying he is a bust by any means … but just hoped for more .. Edited February 19 by Aussie Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 26 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said: Great players show up in the biggest games. Oliver is good, not great. Which players showed up in our biggest games? Besides Josh? We have plenty of talent. When the entire team is consistently no-showing for the big games, the issue lies above the players. See: @FireChans previous thread with the poll. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Brand J said: So is $20M+/yr for what he brings. That’s even more ridiculous. How do you watch him and not think he’s worth the money? And he’s a better run defender than pass rusher. Edited February 19 by Buffalo_Stampede 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 3 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said: Rousseau was really raw when he came out … only had two years of a college if I remember correctly and sat out the season before he was a drafted because of the Covid situation …so maybe you can think he is still going through some development and can get better .. I would have liked to have seen better pass rush skills by now… Im leaning that the 5th Year option is too much $$$ for what he is shown to date .. He’ll get the 5th year option, no doubt. But going forward, unless he taps into a consistent ability to disrupt the QB, he walks if his camp believes he should be paid like a great edge defender. $13M/yr would be my value on what he currently brings. $15M/yr if his sacks per season stay relatively the same (5-8) but his amount of pressures greatly increase. He just doesn’t affect the QB often enough - currently - to get into big money discussions. 1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: How do you watch him and not think he’s worth the money? And he’s a better run defender than pass rusher. I’ve said he’s a much better run defender than pass rusher. How do I watch him and not think he’s worth $20M/yr? Same way I watched Edmunds for 5 years and didn’t think he should’ve been paid a dime more than Milano at $11-$13M/yr. You let those non-difference makers walk if the price tag gets high, you DONT extend that production with a hefty contract. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 lol was this rhetoric similar regarding Ed Oliver before he signed his contract and blew up? I think you doth protest a bit too much regarding Rousseau. Could he not also "blow up" sooner rather than later? I call this a "borrow trouble" thread. Jusr sayin. He is fine and I think only going to get better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corta765 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 He is a very good player who will probably make a pro bowl or two at some point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, muppy said: lol was this rhetoric similar regarding Ed Oliver before he signed his contract and blew up? I think you doth protest a bit too much regarding Rousseau. Could he not also "blow up" sooner rather than later? I call this a "borrow trouble" thread. Jusr sayin. He is fine and I think only going to get better. Was this attributed to me? Or the OP? If I could go back and dig up some of my old posts, I was in favor of extending Oliver, always had been, because he had shown an ability to take over games, he just didn’t do it consistently enough. I still remember Dallas on Thanksgiving and a Jets game where he was a one man wrecking ball, single-handedly disrupted drives. I told people years ago if it came down to Edmunds or Oliver I’m picking Oliver 10/10 even if he plays a fraction of the defensive snaps. And if Rousseau blows up, great! He’d be worth the investment, but I’m not extending his current production at a high ticket. He has yet shown that he can take over games like Oliver had shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 1 minute ago, Brand J said: Was this attributed to me? Or the OP? If I could go back and dig up some of my old posts, I was in favor of extending Oliver, always had been, because he had shown an ability to take over games, he just didn’t do it consistently enough. I still remember Dallas on Thanksgiving and a Jets game where he was a one man wrecking ball, single-handedly disrupted drives. I told people years ago if it came down to Edmunds or Oliver I’m picking Oliver 10/10 even if he plays a fraction of the defensive snaps. And if Rousseau blows up, great! He’d be worth the investment, but I’m not extending his current production at a high ticket. He has yet shown that he can take over games like Oliver had shown. no. I was posting to the thread in general. but more so the OP Edited February 19 by muppy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 4 minutes ago, Brand J said: He’ll get the 5th year option, no doubt. But going forward, unless he taps into a consistent ability to disrupt the QB, he walks if his camp believes he should be paid like a great edge defender. $13M/yr would be my value on what he currently brings. $15M/yr if his sacks per season stay relatively the same (5-8) but his amount of pressures greatly increase. He just doesn’t affect the QB often enough - currently - to get into big money discussions. I’ve said he’s a much better run defender than pass rusher. How do I watch him and not think he’s worth $20M/yr? Same way I watched Edmunds for 5 years and didn’t think he should’ve been paid a dime more than Milano at $11-$13M/yr. You let those non-difference makers walk if the price tag gets high, you DONT extend that production with a hefty contract. “Non difference makers” Team was one of the best pass rushing teams in the league. He was our best edge pass rusher and only plays 60% of the snaps. He’s 23 years old. He’s our best edge pass rusher and he’s an even better run defender. Youre letting that guy walk. The 2nd most important position in the NFL you’re trading for a 3rd round comp pick. He’s literally our best edge player. Have fun replacing him. Edmunds was an easily replaceable position. Plus he was a below average player. There’s no comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabel Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Don't we have enough concerns? I mean, Tyler Bass is still sitting in the corner. That's on me, tho. He can continue to think about what he did. Groot might not rack up crazy numbers but he's typically pretty solid when he gets out there. Should hopefully continue to evolve. They'll be counting on him a lot this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 13 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: How do you watch him and not think he’s worth the money? And he’s a better run defender than pass rusher. I hear Joe talk about pass rush win rate a lot. It makes sense on the surface and I think it matters. I also think it matters if you "close" and get the sack or not. I like Rousseau and agree many don't realize his value in the run game. However there are times no rush is generated and we are left with "well the pass rush win rate is good". What does that do for us? Is there correlation between pass rush win rate and sacks? Is it common for a guy to h ave a hgh win rate and low sack rate and what does that mean? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: “Non difference makers” Team was one of the best pass rushing teams in the league. He was our best edge pass rusher and only plays 60% of the snaps. He’s 23 years old. He’s our best edge pass rusher and he’s an even better run defender. Youre letting that guy walk. The 2nd most important position in the NFL you’re trading for a 3rd round comp pick. He’s literally our best edge player. Have fun replacing him. Edmunds was an easily replaceable position. Plus he was a below average player. There’s no comparison. Correct, I’m letting him walk if he thinks he should be paid more than he’s worth. If he makes one of these lists when his contract is up for discussion, he’ll have a much stronger argument for being paid like a great player: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#prwr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 (edited) 20 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Which players showed up in our biggest games? Besides Josh? We have plenty of talent. When the entire team is consistently no-showing for the big games, the issue lies above the players. See: @FireChans previous thread with the poll. Just Josh. Maybe Milano. Which is why I am nervous about overpaying good players to get 6 sacks in the regular season. Edited February 19 by FireChans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 1 minute ago, Brand J said: Correct, I’m letting him walk if he thinks he should be paid more than he’s worth. If he makes one of these lists when his contract is up for discussion, he’ll have a much stronger argument for being paid like a great player: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#prwr You’re missing the point that great edge players will be making $30+ million in 2 years. I actually don’t want him to have that 1 elite year before signing his deal. Edited February 19 by Buffalo_Stampede Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 14 minutes ago, muppy said: lol was this rhetoric similar regarding Ed Oliver before he signed his contract and blew up? I think you doth protest a bit too much regarding Rousseau. Could he not also "blow up" sooner rather than later? I call this a "borrow trouble" thread. Jusr sayin. He is fine and I think only going to get better. "I have known many troubles in my life, most of which never happened." - Mark Twain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 19 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: How do you watch him and not think he’s worth the money? And he’s a better run defender than pass rusher. “Mildly better than Kingsley Jonathan,” is not the trump card you think it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 2 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said: I hear Joe talk about pass rush win rate a lot. It makes sense on the surface and I think it matters. I also think it matters if you "close" and get the sack or not. I like Rousseau and agree many don't realize his value in the run game. However there are times no rush is generated and we are left with "well the pass rush win rate is good". What does that do for us? Is there correlation between pass rush win rate and sacks? Is it common for a guy to h ave a hgh win rate and low sack rate and what does that mean? I remember one play from the Chiefs game where Rousseau was in on Mahomes. One. And he didn’t get the sack. Because of the miss Klein inexplicably left his assignment and we gave up a huge play. Those sacks and being able to close the deal definitely matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, FireChans said: Just Josh. Maybe Milano. Which is why I am nervous about overpaying good players to get 6 sacks in the regular season. We have the talent. We dont have people who can get the most out of that talent or put that talent in positions to succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 hour ago, FireChans said: The topic isn’t about if he’s “going anywhere.” Imagine complaining about a topic you misunderstood lmao It is a topic of GRs worth, and should he be paid or let go, when we all know he will be here for the next two seasons, it’s a fruitless exercise presently, it is you who misunderstand your own thread, 😁👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: You’re missing the point that great edge players will be making $30+ million in 2 years. I actually don’t want him to have that 1 elite year before signing his deal. We’ll see what Beane does, but if all things stay relatively the same, don’t be surprised if Rousseau is allowed to walk versus Beane signing him for $20M/yr. I just don’t think it’ll happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, Don Otreply said: It is a topic of GRs worth, and should he be paid or let go, when we all know he will be here for the next two seasons, it’s a fruitless exercise presently, it is you who misunderstand your own thread, 😁👍 Everything we talk about is a fruitless exercise, unless @DrDawkinstein is secretly Brandon Beane. Not only do you not understand the thread, I’m afraid you don’t understand message boards in general. 2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: We have the talent. We dont have people who can get the most out of that talent or put that talent in positions to succeed. I’m not sure we do. There’s no coaching explanation for why Ed was able to have such a great year, a career year, and then get erased by the KC IOL (who are great). They were just better than him, all night. I thought the KC OT’s were their biggest weakness going into that game, and yet Groot was a ghost. Also not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 7 minutes ago, FireChans said: “Mildly better than Kingsley Jonathan,” is not the trump card you think it is. It’s a very small sample size. He did have a good game which helped his rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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