Bills @ Patriots Post game thread

[Low Positive]

12 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

He’s ramping up to playing the game again. You can’t really do that in practice these days so he sees spot duty until then. He appears to be at least another month away. 

I agree, but he played 27 snaps last week and only 6 this week. Maybe there's some soreness or some other setback. 

[Solomon Grundy]

27 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

 

I still cannot believe that the defense gave up long TD drives to start the game and to end the game, failing to hold a lead. 

 

I saw Dorian make a few errors in assignment, then he was out, poof.  They got worse without him.  

 

I understand that Oliver and D Jones were out but what about our edge rush?   Von Miller did not contribute.  Epenesa  and Floyd were both also MIA.   Did Eppy even dress for the game?  

I really don't understand how McDermott nitpick on Williams and Elam's play and relegate them to the bench, but continue to play Dodson and Dane who looks worse🤷

[Success]

We'll beat the Pats in Buffalo, if both teams stay relatively healthy from here on out.  But I definitely want that to be a blowout now.

 

[ndirish1978]

15 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

At some point some fans will need to actually come to terms with Allen simply playing poorly.

 

Making bad choices where to go with the ball, staring down receivers and throwing INTs, dirting easy passes, and air mailing passes out of bounds or overthrowing receivers that are wide open down field.

 

It's not all Allen and Dorsey can do a better job with some situational calls and personnel packages and some players have to execute better.

 

However when players are schemed open and Allen just can't hit those passes that is not on your OC or the plays called 

 

At some point you should read what was written and realize I am blaming both the playcaller and the player. Running the ball and the threat of running is a major weapon for Josh, that has been schemed out of the playbook and he has been admonished over and over to stop freelancing and he chose to listen to that stupid bit of advice. He has poor judgment as it is but now we've removed half of his ability to create wow plays to make up for the boneheaded ints he throws. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

5 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

I think no Big Ed and obviously Jones was huge. Ed has been a terror, getting pressure in the middle which turns into the ends getting sacks. 

 

Also Dodson killed us. Was a noticeable difference without Dorian, I have no clue what happened to him but we need him. Kid is legit, no Milano but he's good

Also, Josh was throwing high or low on many passes, some were caught but the throw prevented any yac. 

He wasnt very good. Wouldn't be surprised if he was pulled due to performance 

[SWATeam]

2 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

At some point you should read what was written and realize I am blaming both the playcaller and the player. Running the ball and the threat of running is a major weapon for Josh, that has been schemed out of the playbook and he has been admonished over and over to stop freelancing and he chose to listen to that stupid bit of advice. He has poor judgment as it is but now we've removed half of his ability to create wow plays to make up for the boneheaded ints he throws. 

I'm sick of wow plays.  I want to see the average play made consistently.  On time and on schedule.

[WideNine]

7 hours ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

At some point you should read what was written and realize I am blaming both the playcaller and the player. Running the ball and the threat of running is a major weapon for Josh, that has been schemed out of the playbook and he has been admonished over and over to stop freelancing and he chose to listen to that stupid bit of advice. He has poor judgment as it is but now we've removed half of his ability to create wow plays to make up for the boneheaded ints he throws. 

 

If the only way for Josh to be effective is for the team to scheme runs for him then that is a QB ability ceiling that rarely leads to good outcomes.

 

The reason Josh can't roll out at will (to the right like he did for a few seasons) is that defenses know the tendencies and have counter measures for him and our scramble drills for receivers.

 

Those off schedule things were never in the playbook to begin with to be schemed out. The league defenses adjusted and they became less effective. As they usually do when countering the tendencies of mobile QBs overly reliant on their legs.

 

Now if you are mobile, can roll out either side, extend plays, and are accurate, then that is a different story.

 

That kind of QB play takes a lot of off season work, practice, and the right baseline talent.

 

Some QBs just don't have the pocket presence or athletic ability to evade the rush and extend plays. Allen does, but his accuracy has been all over the place.

 

This narrative of Allen being locked into the pocket and handcuffed by the coaching staff is delusional.

 

Is he being asked to go through progressions and hit the open receiver on schedule? Probably, but so is every other NFL level QB. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by WideNine

[CincyBillsFan]

17 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

If the only way for Josh to be effective is for the team to scheme runs for him then that is a QB ability ceiling that rarely leads to good outcomes.

 

The reason Josh can't roll out at will (to the right like he did for a few seasons) is that defenses know the tendencies and have counter measures for him and our scramble drills for receivers.

 

Those off schedule things were never in the playbook to begin with to be schemed out. The league defenses adjusted and they became less effective. As they usually do when countering the tendencies of mobile QBs overly reliant on their legs.

 

Now if you are mobile, can roll out either side, extend plays, and are accurate, then that is a different story.

 

That kind of QB play takes a lot of off season work, practice, and the right baseline talent.

 

Some QBs just don't have the pocket presence to evade the rush and extend plays. Allen does, but his accuracy has been all over the place.

 

This narrative of Allen being locked into the pocket and handcuffed by the coaching staff is delusional.

 

Is he being asked to go through progressions and hit the open receiver on schedule? Probably, but so is every other NFL level QB. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We are over thinking this.  What is hamstringing Allen is a bad O line and mediocre play makers not named Diggs.  Watching what other teams put around their elite or just very good QB's clearly highlights just how poorly the Bills have been at doing this. 

 

Maybe the reality is that what we're seeing is the best Allen and this offense can be as currently structured & coached. A top 10 unit by the stat measures that count (points & yards) but never fully realizing the potential of the great QB at the helm.  Allen & the Bills offense is looking more and more like Herbert & the Chargers.  It's plain to see and we all know the common denominator.

 

 

[BuffaloBillies]

As bad as the lines were (among others), these 5 plays changed everything. Imagine if they (all or some) went our way...

 

PENALTY             3 & Goal - BUF 8

(0:06 - 1st) J.Allen pass short middle to D.Knox for 8 yards - TOUCHDOWN NULLIFIED by Penalty. PENALTY on BUF-L.Murray - Offensive Pass Interference - 10 yards - enforced at NE 8 - No Play.

 

NO GOOD          4 & 16 - BUF 24

(1:55 - 2nd) T.Bass 42 yard field goal is No Good - Wide Right - Center-R.Ferguson - Holder-S.Martin.

 

NO GAIN            4 & 2 - BUF 33

(13:50 - 4th) J.Allen pass incomplete short right to D.Knox (J.Bentley).

 

PENALTY             3 & 3 - NE 33

(11:45 - 4th) M.Jones sacked at BUF 39 for -6 yards (L.Floyd). FUMBLES (L.Floyd) [L.Floyd] - recovered by NE-M.Onwenu at BUF 40. PENALTY on BUF-Ta.Johnson - Illegal Contact - 5 yards - enforced at BUF 33 - No Play.

 

+34 YD  1 & 10 - NE 25

(1:58 - 4th) M.Jones pass short right to R.Stevenson pushed ob at BUF 41 for 34 yards (T.Bernard).

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Bob in STL said:

 

I still cannot believe that the defense gave up long TD drives to start the game and to end the game, failing to hold a lead. 

 

I saw Dorian make a few errors in assignment, then he was out, poof.  They got worse without him.  

 

I understand that Oliver and D Jones were out but what about our edge rush?   Von Miller did not contribute.  Epenesa  and Floyd were both also MIA.   Did Eppy even dress for the game?  

Eppy almost had a sack on the last Patriots drive but only time I saw him. I still haven't seen or heard Poona's name once all season.

[WideNine]

42 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Eppy almost had a sack on the last Patriots drive but only time I saw him. I still haven't seen or heard Poona's name once all season.

 

He was in on one stop he chased down early when Settle got blown out of his gap.

 

Much of the yards we gave up were outside the tackles.

 

Looked like the Pats had two helmets on him when he was in and he was not giving up too much ground.

 

There was so much crap going on elsewhere that I did not like that I stopped looking for Poona plays.

 

Like Dane playing 15 yards off a receiver the Pats called up from their practice squad to give up an easy 1st down conversion or completely whiffing on an end around tackle.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by WideNine

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

This is 100% on scheme. You have to have ways to switch off routes in man coverage vs bunch sets.

 

That same kind of "pick" we were flagged on for the Knox nullified TD.

 

Folks don't like to look or mention officiating, but it did impact this game and the Bills' ability to move the ball, score, and kept NE drives alive.

 

Hate to watch games like that.

 

 

[HoofHearted]

15 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

That same kind of "pick" we were flagged on for the Knox nullified TD.

 

Folks don't like to look or mention officiating, but it did impact this game and the Bills' ability to move the ball, score, and kept NE drives alive.

 

Hate to watch games like that.

 

 

No it's not. Murray ran square into the guy without turning his head. New England didn't even touch any of our guys - we picked ourselves because we weren't playing any version of in/out man coverage you'd like.

[HoofHearted]

3 hours ago, Dukestreetking said:

@HoofHearted question/request:

 

If/when you get a chance, can you do 'Line/QB Pass error analysis" for this game? Always interesting, helpful...realize it's probably time-consuming.

 

May be available already in the many threads, but haven't seen it. Thanks.

Sure, once the A22 comes out I can.

[WideNine]

33 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

No it's not. Murray ran square into the guy without turning his head. New England didn't even touch any of our guys - we picked ourselves because we weren't playing any version of in/out man coverage you'd like.

 

I watched that replay and he made contact with both 25 and 7. He knocked 25 to the ground.

 

I believe they could have called offensive PI if that contact happens more than a yard beyond the LOS.  

 

My point earlier in this thread on our pick plays was that our receivers don't get their heads around, don't look like they continue their "route", and throw their arms up in mock innocence which is begging for a flag.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

He was in on one stop he chased down early when Settle got blown out of his gap.

 

Much of the yards we gave up were outside the tackles.

 

Looked like the Pats had two helmets on him when he was in and he was not giving up too much ground.

 

There was so much crap going on elsewhere that I did not like that I stopped looking for Poona plays.

 

Like Dane playing 15 yards off a receiver the Pats called up from their practice squad to give up an easy 1st down conversion or completely whiffing on an end around tackle.

 

 

Dane was terrible yesterday, just plain terrible.  

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

He was in on one stop he chased down early when Settle got blown out of his gap.

 

Much of the yards we gave up were outside the tackles.

 

Looked like the Pats had two helmets on him when he was in and he was not giving up too much ground.

 

There was so much crap going on elsewhere that I did not like that I stopped looking for Poona plays.

 

Like Dane playing 15 yards off a receiver the Pats called up from their practice squad to give up an easy 1st down conversion or completely whiffing on an end around tackle.

 

 

Dane and Taron had horrible days, Poyer made up for his with forcing the fumble. 

[Success]

A minor pet peeve - yesterday was the warmest handshake BB has given McD.

 

He's usually pretty quick & gruff, but he actually pulled McD in for a quick hug and said a few things this time.

 

It's what we know about him:  he's just a sore loser.  Anyone can be gracious when they win.

 

[The Jokeman]

3 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

Looking like the 12 formation is not effective.  We still do not run good enough, even with 2 TE's.   

 

Our #2 WR does not contribute and #88 drops a key pass every game.  

 

The offensive talent does not scare anyone.  Keys to stopping them are well known:

 

 Double Diggs + keep Allen from running + make him be patient with short passes + blitz on the right side of the OL =>  the Bills will beat themselves.  

Shakir might be moving into a bigger role on offense, which seems justified with his performance yesterday. Knox should be playing behind Kinkaid at this point. IMO. 

4 minutes ago, Success said:

A minor pet peeve - yesterday was the warmest handshake BB has given McD.

 

He's usually pretty quick & gruff, but he actually pulled McD in for a quick hug and said a few things this time.

 

It's what we know about him:  he's just a sore loser.  Anyone can be gracious when they win.

 

Well it was BB's 300th career win, am sure he was happy to finally get it. 

[Maine-iac]

I was at the game and it seemed like Josh missed a number of throws.  Watching the game now at home on DVR.  Some harder than others but Josh missed a few throws we've seen him make before.  The Pats came out running the ball down our throats.  Not really surprising given our injuries but I have to wonder if they didn't try to coach around our inability to stop the run and in turn got Mac Jones going.  Totally reminded me of Cinci last year.  Can't stop the run and as a consequence makes the pass that much harder to defend.  Not sure averaging 9 penalties a game (the last 3 games) is helping either.

[WideNine]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

I was at the game and it seemed like Josh missed a number of throws.  Watching the game now at home on DVR.  Some harder than others but Josh missed a few throws we've seen him make before.  The Pats came out running the ball down our throats.  Not really surprising given our injuries but I have to wonder if they didn't try to coach around our inability to stop the run and in turn got Mac Jones going.  Totally reminded me of Cinci last year.  Can't stop the run and as a consequence makes the pass that much harder to defend.  Not sure averaging 9 penalties a game (the last 3 games) is helping either.

 

Dodson is a bit more of a downhill thumper as a run defender than Bernard or Williams, but as soon as McD brought him in Mac just used play action and lobbed passes behind him because he is not as good recognizing where he needs to be in coverage and getting there on time.

 

Eerily similar to how broken this defense got when DaQuan was out last year.

 

We missed the double teams he draws and his push up the middle collapsing the pocket. We also missed having Oliver's disruptive ability to split the double teams, beat protection schemes, and  knife into the backfield.

 

The team looked sloppy yesterday executing in all phases, but I thought the officiating was pretty abysmal in general.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, WideNine said:

 

Dodson is a bit more of a downhill thumper as a run defender than Bernard or Williams, but as soon as McD brought him in Mac just used play action and lobbed passes behind him because he is not as good recognizing where he needs to be in coverage and getting there on time.

 

Eerily similar to how broken this defense got when DaQuan was out last year.

 

We missed the double teams he draws and his push up the middle collapsing the pocket. We also missed having Oliver's disruptive ability to split the double teams, beat protection schemes, and  knife into the backfield.

 

The team looked sloppy yesterday executing in all phases, but I thought the officiating was pretty abysmal in general.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Healthy Jones and Oliver I doubt the Pats come our running like they did.  Jones is looking at 3rd and longs and the nwe heat him up with just our front 4 and play coverage.  Just so much harder to play our defense when we get beat at the LOS so much.

[WideNine]

Finally caught up with Joe's Locked On podcast and mirrored much of what I thought I saw.

 

Didn't realize how much Williams, Bernard, and Taron struggled in the middle and as we suspected our interior DT play was poor.

 

So an easy day for Mac to step up clean and deliver to open guys on in-breaking routes.

 

Also Torrence and Morse got manhandled. 

 

I have been preaching prioritizing prospects for both a younger 1-tech and C for years to groom as anchors to both lines and that has largely been ignored by OBD.

 

Mitch is a good C, but struggles with bigger, stronger DTs, and every team in the AFC East has made having one a priority.

 

Miami - Wilkins

Jets - Williams

NE (technically a NT) Barmore

 

Barmore took Torrence and Morse to school quite a bit in that game making it hard for Allen to step up and into throws or escape the pocket.

 

So we will see how or if our Bills can adapt and make adjustments for Thurs.

 

 

 

 

[chongli]

To add further insult, Sky TV in the UK decided to show Miami at Philadelphia for its game of the week replay. Buffalo at New England had been scheduled to air.

 

 

[HoofHearted]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:23 AM, Dukestreetking said:

@HoofHearted question/request:

 

If/when you get a chance, can you do 'Line/QB Pass error analysis" for this game? Always interesting, helpful...realize it's probably time-consuming.

 

May be available already in the many threads, but haven't seen it. Thanks.

1st Series

1. 12p - Flood vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection to the Field - Good Concept vs. the Cover 3 look, Patriots bring 5 - protection is good - we slide to the pressure - Josh's eyes are good - corner came off late like it's taught and josh threw an underthrown floater to the out.

 

2nd Series

1. 11p - H Follow vs. Cover 1 - Half Slide Protection to the Field - Great concept getting the rub vs man coverage - Patriots bring 4 - protection is good - throw is good.

2. 11p - HBO vs. Bracket - Slide Protection to the Field - Protection was called correctly - Patriots bring 3 and spy with the 4th - Brown lost his 1v1 - Nice throw and catch between Allen and Cook on the scramble drill. Allen worked the two receiver side vs the man look to go for the big play to Sherfield on the vertical - had Diggs to the field early (even though they had bracket coverage on him on a rub - looked there but protection was breaking down and didn't have a base set to throw.

3. 11p - PAP Corner-Post Concept vs. Cover 3 - Outside Zone Blocking Scheme - Based off the protection it looks like Josh got too wide in his drop and then got caught outside of his pocket and was forced to roll to the sideline and eventually eat it. Play was designed to bring the defense down to the OZ side and then hit Diggs on the Post as it cross the MoF Safeties face. Dig route by the Tight End brought the underneath defenders forward to create the open spacing for Diggs to be wide open if Allen were able to sit inside Brown within the protection.

4. 11p - Curl/Arrow vs. 1 Rat - Half Slide Protection - Patriots rush 5 - Protection is called correctly - Good coverage - Allen recognizes man and tries to take off - gets tripped up - Barmore beats Morse with a club rip and gets widened into Dawkins allowing DE to work back upfield to get to Allen

5. 11p - Tunnel vs. Man - Good pitch and catch for a 1st Down to Cook. Great call vs. what we got from the defense and a great way to SCHEME COOK into the pass game

6. 11p - RPO Bubble vs. Cover 6 - Dart Blocking Scheme - Good call - 3 over 3 coverage - Dart actions holds the backer - we cross block the bubble to gain advantage on angles and pick up about 8 yards. This is the type of stuff that doesn't get noticed by anyone - the design of this play to 1) get a numbers advantage and 2) block it in a way to give us a huge advantage is a master class in play design.

7. 11p - T Choice vs. Quarters - Half Slide Protection - Patriots bring 6 - Protection was called correctly - Diggs is lined up in our backfield so Allen can't keep the back in for Scan protection - the 6th rusher will be free and Josh has to recognize that and throw hot off the 6th rusher - Allen recognizes the rushes - stares at Shakir who's our hot and instead of setting his feet and throwing he panics and tries to escape the pocket - should have been an easy pitch and catch - this ones on Allen

8. 12p - H Choice vs. Bracket - Slide Protection - Patriots rush 3 - Protection called correctly - Torrence blows the protection - after he realizes he doesn't have an outside threat he just freezes and doesn't help Morse who gets beat by Barmore - Josh still able to throw TD pass to Knox which was called back for OPI.

9. 12p - H Follow vs. Quarters - Slide Protection - Protection called correctly - Pats rush 3 spy 1 - Allen reads the H Follow side first sees it's not there and scrambles to the field - unfortunate because the patriots were in a version of Quarters where the corner mans 1 and the cover down and high safety are playing combo coverage on 2 and 3 - with the route concept we had called it set up a natural pick and both Knox and Kincaid were wide open

 

3rd Series

1. 11p - PAP Curl/Arrow vs. Cover 6 - BOB Protection - Patriots rush 4 - Protection called correctly - Allen hits Kincaid in the flat on the arrow

2. 11p - Flood vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - Protection called correctly - Patriots rush 4 - Torrence loses his 1v1 - Josh escapes the pocket and probably should have just dumped it to Murray and let him get what he could, but he tries to extend the play and has options in Knox and Diggs open - overthrows Diggs on the Out.

 

All I got time for right now, but I'll try and get some more done later tonight if I have time.

 

@Big Turk You had asked about protections I think.

Edited October 25, 2023 by HoofHearted

[Scott7975]

8 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

7. 11p - T Choice vs. Quarters - Half Slide Protection - Patriots bring 6 - Protection was called correctly - Diggs is lined up in our backfield so Allen can't keep the back in for Scan protection - the 6th rusher will be free and Josh has to recognize that and throw hot off the 6th rusher - Allen recognizes the rushes - stares at Shakir who's our hot and instead of setting his feet and throwing he panics and tries to escape the pocket - should have been an easy pitch and catch - this ones on Allen

 

First, thank you for taking the time to do this. Can you maybe share your thoughts on why, if Allen was staring down the hot as to why he would just stare him down and not throw it? I can't see the play you are referring to but I am envisioning that he is open if he is the hot and Allen has identified the right throw... so why isn't he throwing it?  I have noticed other times that Allen sees the right guy but doesn't make the throw.  It baffles me why that is.

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

First, thank you for taking the time to do this. Can you maybe share your thoughts on why, if Allen was staring down the hot as to why he would just stare him down and not throw it? I can't see the play you are referring to but I am envisioning that he is open if he is the hot and Allen has identified the right throw... so why isn't he throwing it?  I have noticed other times that Allen sees the right guy but doesn't make the throw.  It baffles me why that is.

Based on his footwork it looked like he thought he wouldn't be able to get the pass off in time.

[HoofHearted]

 

28 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

1st Series

1. 12p - Flood vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection to the Field - Good Concept vs. the Cover 3 look, Patriots bring 5 - protection is good - we slide to the pressure - Josh's eyes are good - corner came off late like it's taught and josh threw an underthrown floater to the out.

 

2nd Series

1. 11p - H Follow vs. Cover 1 - Half Slide Protection to the Field - Great concept getting the rub vs man coverage - Patriots bring 4 - protection is good - throw is good.

2. 11p - HBO vs. Bracket - Slide Protection to the Field - Protection was called correctly - Patriots bring 3 and spy with the 4th - Brown lost his 1v1 - Nice throw and catch between Allen and Cook on the scramble drill. Allen worked the two receiver side vs the man look to go for the big play to Sherfield on the vertical - had Diggs to the field early (even though they had bracket coverage on him on a rub - looked there but protection was breaking down and didn't have a base set to throw.

3. 11p - PAP Corner-Post Concept vs. Cover 3 - Outside Zone Blocking Scheme - Based off the protection it looks like Josh got too wide in his drop and then got caught outside of his pocket and was forced to roll to the sideline and eventually eat it. Play was designed to bring the defense down to the OZ side and then hit Diggs on the Post as it cross the MoF Safeties face. Dig route by the Tight End brought the underneath defenders forward to create the open spacing for Diggs to be wide open if Allen were able to sit inside Brown within the protection.

4. 11p - Curl/Arrow vs. 1 Rat - Half Slide Protection - Patriots rush 5 - Protection is called correctly - Good coverage - Allen recognizes man and tries to take off - gets tripped up - Barmore beats Morse with a club rip and gets widened into Dawkins allowing DE to work back upfield to get to Allen

5. 11p - Tunnel vs. Man - Good pitch and catch for a 1st Down to Cook. Great call vs. what we got from the defense and a great way to SCHEME COOK into the pass game

6. 11p - RPO Bubble vs. Cover 6 - Dart Blocking Scheme - Good call - 3 over 3 coverage - Dart actions holds the backer - we cross block the bubble to gain advantage on angles and pick up about 8 yards. This is the type of stuff that doesn't get noticed by anyone - the design of this play to 1) get a numbers advantage and 2) block it in a way to give us a huge advantage is a master class in play design.

7. 11p - T Choice vs. Quarters - Half Slide Protection - Patriots bring 6 - Protection was called correctly - Diggs is lined up in our backfield so Allen can't keep the back in for Scan protection - the 6th rusher will be free and Josh has to recognize that and throw hot off the 6th rusher - Allen recognizes the rushes - stares at Shakir who's our hot and instead of setting his feet and throwing he panics and tries to escape the pocket - should have been an easy pitch and catch - this ones on Allen

8. 12p - H Choice vs. Bracket - Slide Protection - Patriots rush 3 - Protection called correctly - Torrence blows the protection - after he realizes he doesn't have an outside threat he just freezes and doesn't help Morse who gets beat by Barmore - Josh still able to throw TD pass to Knox which was called back for OPI.

9. 12p - H Follow vs. Quarters - Slide Protection - Protection called correctly - Pats rush 3 spy 1 - Allen reads the H Follow side first sees it's not there and scrambles to the field - unfortunate because the patriots were in a version of Quarters where the corner mans 1 and the cover down and high safety are playing combo coverage on 2 and 3 - with the route concept we had called it set up a natural pick and both Knox and Kincaid were wide open

 

3rd Series

1. 11p - PAP Curl/Arrow vs. Cover 6 - BOB Protection - Patriots rush 4 - Protection called correctly - Allen hits Kincaid in the flat on the arrow

2. 11p - Flood vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - Protection called correctly - Patriots rush 4 - Torrence loses his 1v1 - Josh escapes the pocket and probably should have just dumped it to Murray and let him get what he could, but he tries to extend the play and has options in Knox and Diggs open - overthrows Diggs on the Out.

 

All I got time for right now, but I'll try and get some more done later tonight if I have time.

@Dukestreetking

 

4th Series

1. 11p - Curl/Swing vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - Pats rush 4 - correct protection - Allen throws to Kincaid on the curl

2. 12p - PAP Deep Curl vs. Cover 3 - BOB Protection - Pats send 6 because we 7 man protect it - Allen hits Kincaid over the middle

3. 11p - Curl/Arrow vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - called correctly - Hit Davis on the Curl

4. 12p - PAP HBO vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - called correctly - Looked for Diggs on the Out n' Up - Patriots shaded his side and forced Josh to look backside - had Davis open on the route conversion - Allen over throws out of bounds with pressure in his face - Godchaux beat Morse with a spin after a failed chop rip - Josh held the ball too long (just over 4 seconds in the pocket)

5. 11p - Snag 7 vs. Cover 2 - Slide Protection - called correctly - Pats rush 4 - Allen hits Kincaid on the snag

6. 11p - Mesh vs. Man 7 - Full Slide Protection - Pats rush 6 - Protection set correctly - Allen is responsible for the free rusher off the edge - wants to throw the hot to Cook - but it's covered - Torrence and Morse both get badly beat - this is a dead play that Allen needs to just dirt

7. 11p - Switch Choice vs. Quarters - Slide Protection - Pats rush 5 - Allen initially looks boundary side Smash concept - sees the corner sink and moves on - sees corner/safety playing the vertical seam by Davis - looks like he's throwing a blind ball (or he's throwing it away) to what he assumes will be Switch Verts to the near pylon but Shakir rightly converted it to a hitch because the flat defender had vertical leverage on him

 

That's your first half.

[Big Turk]

57 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

@Dukestreetking

 

4th Series

1. 11p - Curl/Swing vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - Pats rush 4 - correct protection - Allen throws to Kincaid on the curl

2. 12p - PAP Deep Curl vs. Cover 3 - BOB Protection - Pats send 6 because we 7 man protect it - Allen hits Kincaid over the middle

3. 11p - Curl/Arrow vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - called correctly - Hit Davis on the Curl

4. 12p - PAP HBO vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - called correctly - Looked for Diggs on the Out n' Up - Patriots shaded his side and forced Josh to look backside - had Davis open on the route conversion - Allen over throws out of bounds with pressure in his face - Godchaux beat Morse with a spin after a failed chop rip - Josh held the ball too long (just over 4 seconds in the pocket)

5. 11p - Snag 7 vs. Cover 2 - Slide Protection - called correctly - Pats rush 4 - Allen hits Kincaid on the snag

6. 11p - Mesh vs. Man 7 - Full Slide Protection - Pats rush 6 - Protection set correctly - Allen is responsible for the free rusher off the edge - wants to throw the hot to Cook - but it's covered - Torrence and Morse both get badly beat - this is a dead play that Allen needs to just dirt

7. 11p - Switch Choice vs. Quarters - Slide Protection - Pats rush 5 - Allen initially looks boundary side Smash concept - sees the corner sink and moves on - sees corner/safety playing the vertical seam by Davis - looks like he's throwing a blind ball (or he's throwing it away) to what he assumes will be Switch Verts to the near pylon but Shakir rightly converted it to a hitch because the flat defender had vertical leverage on him

 

That's your first half.

 

So it appears like you are saying for the most part Allen is diagnosing protections properly and doing things the right way regarding progressions, etc...why do you think he seems to be struggling so much against the blitz recently versus 2020 then?  He used to destroy teams if they chose to blitz and now it seems to be causing him issues.  Are there times he should be using his legs to make teams pay for doing it that he isn't and instead trying to become a Justin Herbert clone?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Big Turk

[HoofHearted]

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

So it appears like you are saying for the most part Allen is diagnosing protections properly and doing things the right way regarding progressions, etc...why do you think he seems to be struggling so much against the blitz recently versus 2020 then?  He used to destroy teams if they chose to blitz and now it seems to be causing him issues.  Are there times he should be using his legs to make teams pay for doing it that he isn't and instead trying to become a Justin Herbert clone?

To be honest there was really only one opportunity for him to step up and escape the pocket and he ended up getting tripped up on it. Teams are doing a good job collapsing the pocket on us.

[Simon]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

First, thank you for taking the time to do this. Can you maybe share your thoughts on why, if Allen was staring down the hot as to why he would just stare him down and not throw it? I can't see the play you are referring to but I am envisioning that he is open if he is the hot and Allen has identified the right throw... so why isn't he throwing it?  I have noticed other times that Allen sees the right guy but doesn't make the throw.  It baffles me why that is.

 

In that case in particular I thought it was just because he was hunting TD's inside the 10 and wasn't interested in picking up 3 yrds.

I don't think he was wrong.

[Scott7975]

2 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

In that case in particular I thought it was just because he was hunting TD's inside the 10 and wasn't interested in picking up 3 yrds.

I don't think he was wrong.

could be that. I’m really not sure. I’ve seen it happen on quite a few plays in multiple games. It’s like he sees the guy but either doesn’t want the guy or doesn’t think the guy makes the play. Maybe he just doesn’t like the throw from his stance or the throwing lane. I just don’t know. It’s really boggling because he definitely sees the guy. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Scott7975

[AlfaBill]

On 10/23/2023 at 12:00 PM, Success said:

A minor pet peeve - yesterday was the warmest handshake BB has given McD.

 

He's usually pretty quick & gruff, but he actually pulled McD in for a quick hug and said a few things this time.

 

It's what we know about him:  he's just a sore loser.  Anyone can be gracious when they win.

 

Another reason to dislike that Prlck 

[Scott7975]

On 10/23/2023 at 2:00 PM, Success said:

A minor pet peeve - yesterday was the warmest handshake BB has given McD.

 

He's usually pretty quick & gruff, but he actually pulled McD in for a quick hug and said a few things this time.

 

It's what we know about him:  he's just a sore loser.  Anyone can be gracious when they win.

 

I mean, he has hugged and given Josh a talk after getting whooped before so that isn’t always the case. McD and Daboll was the same thing the week before. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Scott7975

[Success]

Just now, Scott7975 said:

I mean, he has hugged and given Josh a talk after getting whooped before so that isn’t always the case. 

 

I've noticed that - you're right.

 

In those games, I noticed he did the no-look handshake w/ McD, and made a beeline for Josh.  I think the football enthusiast in him really appreciates how JA plays.

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

In that case in particular I thought it was just because he was hunting TD's inside the 10 and wasn't interested in picking up 3 yrds.

I don't think he was wrong.

I really do think it’s because of his feet the more I watch it. He was off-base and did have a guy right in his face.

[Dukestreetking]

9 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

1st Series

1. 12p - Flood vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection to the Field - Good Concept vs. the Cover 3 look, Patriots bring 5 - protection is good - we slide to the pressure - Josh's eyes are good - corner came off late like it's taught and josh threw an underthrown floater to the out.

 

2nd Series

1. 11p - H Follow vs. Cover 1 - Half Slide Protection to the Field - Great concept getting the rub vs man coverage - Patriots bring 4 - protection is good - throw is good.

2. 11p - HBO vs. Bracket - Slide Protection to the Field - Protection was called correctly - Patriots bring 3 and spy with the 4th - Brown lost his 1v1 - Nice throw and catch between Allen and Cook on the scramble drill. Allen worked the two receiver side vs the man look to go for the big play to Sherfield on the vertical - had Diggs to the field early (even though they had bracket coverage on him on a rub - looked there but protection was breaking down and didn't have a base set to throw.

3. 11p - PAP Corner-Post Concept vs. Cover 3 - Outside Zone Blocking Scheme - Based off the protection it looks like Josh got too wide in his drop and then got caught outside of his pocket and was forced to roll to the sideline and eventually eat it. Play was designed to bring the defense down to the OZ side and then hit Diggs on the Post as it cross the MoF Safeties face. Dig route by the Tight End brought the underneath defenders forward to create the open spacing for Diggs to be wide open if Allen were able to sit inside Brown within the protection.

4. 11p - Curl/Arrow vs. 1 Rat - Half Slide Protection - Patriots rush 5 - Protection is called correctly - Good coverage - Allen recognizes man and tries to take off - gets tripped up - Barmore beats Morse with a club rip and gets widened into Dawkins allowing DE to work back upfield to get to Allen

5. 11p - Tunnel vs. Man - Good pitch and catch for a 1st Down to Cook. Great call vs. what we got from the defense and a great way to SCHEME COOK into the pass game

6. 11p - RPO Bubble vs. Cover 6 - Dart Blocking Scheme - Good call - 3 over 3 coverage - Dart actions holds the backer - we cross block the bubble to gain advantage on angles and pick up about 8 yards. This is the type of stuff that doesn't get noticed by anyone - the design of this play to 1) get a numbers advantage and 2) block it in a way to give us a huge advantage is a master class in play design.

7. 11p - T Choice vs. Quarters - Half Slide Protection - Patriots bring 6 - Protection was called correctly - Diggs is lined up in our backfield so Allen can't keep the back in for Scan protection - the 6th rusher will be free and Josh has to recognize that and throw hot off the 6th rusher - Allen recognizes the rushes - stares at Shakir who's our hot and instead of setting his feet and throwing he panics and tries to escape the pocket - should have been an easy pitch and catch - this ones on Allen

8. 12p - H Choice vs. Bracket - Slide Protection - Patriots rush 3 - Protection called correctly - Torrence blows the protection - after he realizes he doesn't have an outside threat he just freezes and doesn't help Morse who gets beat by Barmore - Josh still able to throw TD pass to Knox which was called back for OPI.

9. 12p - H Follow vs. Quarters - Slide Protection - Protection called correctly - Pats rush 3 spy 1 - Allen reads the H Follow side first sees it's not there and scrambles to the field - unfortunate because the patriots were in a version of Quarters where the corner mans 1 and the cover down and high safety are playing combo coverage on 2 and 3 - with the route concept we had called it set up a natural pick and both Knox and Kincaid were wide open

 

3rd Series

1. 11p - PAP Curl/Arrow vs. Cover 6 - BOB Protection - Patriots rush 4 - Protection called correctly - Allen hits Kincaid in the flat on the arrow

2. 11p - Flood vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - Protection called correctly - Patriots rush 4 - Torrence loses his 1v1 - Josh escapes the pocket and probably should have just dumped it to Murray and let him get what he could, but he tries to extend the play and has options in Knox and Diggs open - overthrows Diggs on the Out.

 

All I got time for right now, but I'll try and get some more done later tonight if I have time.

 

@Big Turk You had asked about protections I think.

 

Hoof: can't thank you enough brother. Read thru all the posts a couple of times. This is incredibly useful insight re what I/others see on the field.

 

My only "critique": this is such a great basis for discussion that it deserves a stand alone thread!

[Simon]

16 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

I really do think it’s because of his feet the more I watch it. He was off-base and did have a guy right in his face.

 

I thought he wanted to get to his right to open up the angle to Knox but it wasn't happening.

Wonder if it is because guys are being coached to leverage him to his left on the rush to keep him from rolling toward his arm.

[dollars 2 donuts]

 

 

 

 

"Besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was "Our American Cousin"? Huh?  HUH?  Good stuff, amirite?  Yeah, you betcha."

 

 

 

 

[Dukestreetking]

20 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

 

@Dukestreetking

 

4th Series

1. 11p - Curl/Swing vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - Pats rush 4 - correct protection - Allen throws to Kincaid on the curl

2. 12p - PAP Deep Curl vs. Cover 3 - BOB Protection - Pats send 6 because we 7 man protect it - Allen hits Kincaid over the middle

3. 11p - Curl/Arrow vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - called correctly - Hit Davis on the Curl

4. 12p - PAP HBO vs. Cover 3 - Half Slide Protection - called correctly - Looked for Diggs on the Out n' Up - Patriots shaded his side and forced Josh to look backside - had Davis open on the route conversion - Allen over throws out of bounds with pressure in his face - Godchaux beat Morse with a spin after a failed chop rip - Josh held the ball too long (just over 4 seconds in the pocket)

5. 11p - Snag 7 vs. Cover 2 - Slide Protection - called correctly - Pats rush 4 - Allen hits Kincaid on the snag

6. 11p - Mesh vs. Man 7 - Full Slide Protection - Pats rush 6 - Protection set correctly - Allen is responsible for the free rusher off the edge - wants to throw the hot to Cook - but it's covered - Torrence and Morse both get badly beat - this is a dead play that Allen needs to just dirt

7. 11p - Switch Choice vs. Quarters - Slide Protection - Pats rush 5 - Allen initially looks boundary side Smash concept - sees the corner sink and moves on - sees corner/safety playing the vertical seam by Davis - looks like he's throwing a blind ball (or he's throwing it away) to what he assumes will be Switch Verts to the near pylon but Shakir rightly converted it to a hitch because the flat defender had vertical leverage on him

 

That's your first half.

 

Ok, so if I have this correctly, is it fair to say, at least for first half:

 

--Pre-snap protection calls and then communication (Dorsey-17-Oline) were damn good.

--Lots of slide protections, understandably, and especially half-slides. As I recall, the latter is your "basic, day 1" call, so it should be relatively "easy" to have full knowledge and execute.

--Not dealing with the actual throws: it seems 17 made a couple of drop-back/pocket errors, be they mental or physical. I would then assume that, second half, he was better(?)

--First half was not Torrence's finest hour. 

 

Again, you're providing really valuable insights; I know it must be time consuming, so I'm especially appreciative.