The Official Fire Ken Dorsey Thread

[MAJBobby]

Just now, FrenchConnection said:

I think that a lot of those "shotgun draw" plays are actually RPOs.

Still useless in the redzone and why I will always scream when I see them.

 

Planned Run Usage of Allen is non-existent this season and other teams see that too so at the end of the day the Shotgun Run is just a Shotgun run at this point. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

He locked on Diggs. Only 3 in the route. 
 

 

 

[Low Positive]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He locked on Diggs. Only 3 in the route. 
 

 

 

People can scream at Dorsey all that they want, but his route concept produced a wide-open Shakir on that play. Josh chose to throw into double coverage instead. 

[Allen2Moulds]

22 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Only time I yell at the TV about a play call is a Shotgun handoff in the redzone.  I am about done with those.  Rest of play calling you would be remised to scream about it at the broadcast angle.  wait until the all 22 is out and we will see if the route concepts are producing open routes.

 

Though I do question the progression build in certain route concepts.  Like is Diggs always the first read and everything comes off that?

The timing of everything just seems off. Out of sync, uncordinated.

[MAJBobby]

24 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He locked on Diggs. Only 3 in the route. 
 

 

 

Perfect example. 

 

Top of Drop. 10 wide open in the break that ball comes out then 10 is still running.

 

Not to mention a led throw into the Endzone is a TD with Gabe as well as he had his man beat and the safety was in no position to get over top

Edited October 16, 2023 by MAJBobby

[Allen2Moulds]

21 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He locked on Diggs. Only 3 in the route. 
 

 

 

I really enjoy Marino's indepth analysis, and will await the all 22. I'm sure Allen missed some throws, but I'd like to compare the number of throws he missed, to how many times was everyone covered up. The other thing I noticed last night was how bad our line pass protected. We made the Giants front seven look like the Jets front seven. McGovern's worst game as a Bill. He's been great, until last night.

[BillsVet]

6 minutes ago, Allen2Moulds said:

I think we also have to account for the fact, that under Daboll, we had an inferior oline, mainly both guard positions. Teams knew we couldn't run it, and we still had success passing the ball at will.  I think the front office is to blame as well. They have continually failed to replace the Beasley position. They have invested more on TE (Knox big contract) and a 1st round pick on Kincaid, than on WR. Where is our return investment?

 

So much on offense under McBeane has been disorganized, even since Josh ascended into a franchise QB. Because for as much as this HC and GM were cited for re-establishing order into the organization after Rex and Doug, they don't seem to understand offense years into their tenure.  From establishing a scheme/identity, staffing it, finding the coordinator, and adapting in-season...little has improved aside from finding the QB and trading for Diggs. 

 

I get the sense McD likes playing super DCoord now and abdicates offense even more to the OC than he did when Daboll was here  That is, until something like last night happens and then he's asking questions.  Can't have it both ways as a HC.   

 

 

[HoofHearted]

31 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Only time I yell at the TV about a play call is a Shotgun handoff in the redzone.  I am about done with those.  Rest of play calling you would be remised to scream about it at the broadcast angle.  wait until the all 22 is out and we will see if the route concepts are producing open routes.

 

Though I do question the progression build in certain route concepts.  Like is Diggs always the first read and everything comes off that?

Diggs is always the first read if Allen sees man coverage. That's Allen doing his own thing.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Diggs is always the first read if Allen sees man coverage. That's Allen doing his own thing.

Are you sure?  Because I would need to see the evidence that Diggs is the first read from Allen only, and not the play designed with Diggs as the first read.

 

 

[Dopey]

Some of you should listen to "One Bills Live" WGR550. Tasker and whoever his partner is give a good perspective on why Dorsey isn't to blame for that first half. It's ok to blame the players for lack of execution. And that first half was definitely on the players. 

[pocoboy]

1 minute ago, Dopey said:

Some of you should listen to "One Bills Live" WGR550. Tasker and whoever his partner is give a good perspective on why Dorsey isn't to blame for that first half. It's ok to blame the players for lack of execution. And that first half was definitely on the players. 

 

What you hope is that Allen isn't feeding Diggs specifically to keep him happy. Diggs is gonna have to grow up at some point. Exploiting other pinch points will open the game up for him eventually. And he'll still get his grabs.

[Dopey]

1 minute ago, pocoboy said:

 

What you hope is that Allen isn't feeding Diggs specifically to keep him happy. Diggs is gonna have to grow up at some point. Exploiting other pinch points will open the game up for him eventually. And he'll still get his grabs.

I think you meant to reply to @MAJBobby.

I'll pass the message along.

😂

[Eastport bills]

Ken made adjustments at halftime and Cook opened routes for Diggs and Knox. The problem with this offense is we have Josh getting flushed too often and Diggs is the guy that gets open so our other receivers are not involved. When we’re running the ball successfully, Josh can sit back and find secondary targets. It’s criminal that Sherfield and Kincaid are blanked every game. Harty can be productive also. We’re getting predictable again and Ken looks lost at times.

[HoofHearted]

13 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Are you sure?  Because I would need to see the evidence that Diggs is the first read from Allen only, and not the play designed with Diggs as the first read.

 

 

Go watch the A22 from last week. We run the same exact play all within the same drive and vs man he stares down diggs and throws the vertical when he got zone he went through his progressions. This isn't anything abnormal. Quarterbacks in the league do this all the time. To be clear I'm not saying this behavior isn't condoned, but it is going against the progression of the concepts.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

Go watch the A22 from last week. We run the same exact play all within the same drive and vs man he stares down diggs and throws the vertical when he got zone he went through his progressions. This isn't anything abnormal. Quarterbacks in the league do this all the time. To be clear I'm not saying this behavior isn't condoned, but it is going against the progression of the concepts.

Again you cannot say who is the primary read definitively without being in the build meetings.  SO you can tell me to watch whatever film you want me to watch unless you are in the build meetings you cannot tell me who is the primary read for a single route, you can assume but that is it.

[HoofHearted]

17 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Some of you should listen to "One Bills Live" WGR550. Tasker and whoever his partner is give a good perspective on why Dorsey isn't to blame for that first half. It's ok to blame the players for lack of execution. And that first half was definitely on the players. 

Blasphemy! How are we supposed to get Dorsey fired if we acknowledge players mess up?!?!?

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Again you cannot say who is the primary read definitively without being in the build meetings.  SO you can tell me to watch whatever film you want me to watch unless you are in the build meetings you cannot tell me who is the primary read for a single route, you can assume but that is it.

I mean it's cool if you don't want to believe me, but all concepts have built in reads/progressions. Those don't change based on what team is running them. Football is a game of rules and those rules are tied to the concept.

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

We run the same exact play all within the same drive and vs man he stares down diggs and throws the vertical when he got zone he went through his progressions.

I can confirm this.

Allen 100% relies on Diggs to get separation against man, but he finally works through progressions against zone.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Blasphemy! How are we supposed to get Dorsey fired if we acknowledge players mess up?!?!?

I mean it's cool if you don't want to believe me, but all concepts have built in reads/progressions. Those don't change based on what team is running them. Football is a game of rules and those rules are tied to the concept.

Except they do.  

 

Example one Concept could have a Deep to Short Read progression based on the coverage shown, and flip the very next play.  So YES they do change play to play defense to defense, script to script.  So unless you are in those build meetings you can guess who the 1st read is, but as I said that is a guess.  Guessing is fine too.  But to say Allen is doing things on his own vs designed n the offense that is where I am calling for the proof.  which you have yet to show.

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I can confirm this.

Allen 100% relies on Diggs to get separation against man, but he finally works through progressions against zone.

I can only confirm Allen stays on Diggs way to long multiple times a game and it costs the team.  

 

So is that in the play design (doubt it)

Is that Diggs saying feed me (doubt it) 

 

Is it Allen Trusts Diggs to make a play and get the needed play compared to his other weapons (absolutely)

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Two weeks in a row now the opposing team hit lofting the ball to an outside go with. Db draped all over him before safety help gets there. 
 

T-Law hit one to Ridley then Tyrod hit one on each sideline. Why is that not is the Bill arsenal?

[Warcodered]

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Two weeks in a row now the opposing team hit lofting the ball to an outside go with. Db draped all over him before safety help gets there. 
 

T-Law hit one to Ridley then Tyrod hit one on each sideline. Why is that not is the Bill arsenal?

Well apparently you can just trip our WRs so problem solved there, pity we never thought of that.

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

Except they do.  

 

Example one Concept could have a Deep to Short Read progression based on the coverage shown, and flip the very next play.  So YES they do change play to play defense to defense, script to script.  So unless you are in those build meetings you can guess who the 1st read is, but as I said that is a guess.  Guessing is fine too.  But to say Allen is doing things on his own vs designed n the offense that is where I am calling for the proof.  which you have yet to show.

Yeah, coverage plays a huge role in progressions, but again they are all rule based. You're acting like the Bills are running some obscure offense that's never been done before. All of these concepts have been around for forever. They all have set rules and progressions. As a casual fan you could probably find them if you wanted to, but like I said - watch the film.

3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Two weeks in a row now the opposing team hit lofting the ball to an outside go with. Db draped all over him before safety help gets there. 
 

T-Law hit one to Ridley then Tyrod hit one on each sideline. Why is that not is the Bill arsenal?

It is? We rarely get man coverage to take advantage of it.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Yeah, coverage plays a huge role in progressions, but again they are all rule based. You're acting like the Bills are running some obscure offense that's never been done before. All of these concepts have been around for forever. They all have set rules and progressions. As a casual fan you could probably find them if you wanted to, but like I said - watch the film.

It is? We rarely get man coverage to take advantage of it.

The Bills rarely run man coverage, I think the two Tryhard hit were not man, but was definitely cover2 safeties 
 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[MAJBobby]

8 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Yeah, coverage plays a huge role in progressions, but again they are all rule based. You're acting like the Bills are running some obscure offense that's never been done before. All of these concepts have been around for forever. They all have set rules and progressions. As a casual fan you could probably find them if you wanted to, but like I said - watch the film.

It is? We rarely get man coverage to take advantage of it.

Again so I would like the proof that there is a progression that Allen said ***** it I am going to Diggs.  You have that yet?

[HoofHearted]

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

The Bills rarely run man coverage, I think the two Tryhard hit were not man, but was definitely cover2 safeties 
 

 

1) I thought you were saying why isn't the vertical passing game in our offense

2) The one on Elam was Cover 1 and the one on Benford was 2 Man

[Buffalo_Stampede]

The question always comes up, who do you hire if you fire Dorsey?

 

I hear people say they want an experienced OC. I actually don’t. I would want a fresh face.

 

Thats the thing. Our offense is good. I don’t think it should be much better statistically. I think they’re right where they should be.

 

Add another top weapon to the offense and then I would feel differently.

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Just now, HoofHearted said:

1) I thought you were saying why isn't the vertical passing game in our offense

2) The one on Elam was Cover 1 and the one on Benford was 2 Man

 That specific throw. I feel like corners play differently if there are worried it getting thrown into that hole over there head before safety gets there. 

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Again so I would like the proof that there is a progression that Allen said ***** it I am going to Diggs.  You have that yet?

Guess you just have to trust that a guy who's been doing this professionally for a long time knows what he's talking about 🤷‍♂️

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 That specific throw. I feel like corners play differently if there are worried it getting thrown into that hole over there head before safety gets there. 

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Guess you just have to trust that a guy who's been doing this professionally for a long time knows what he's talking about 🤷‍♂️

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Yeah no trust me bro doesn’t work. 
 

back your claim that Allen is going off script. Where is the hold package Mr progressional. Ooo wait others also do this a long time professionally. 
 

Heck everyone makes educated guesses in every profession. That is much different than your claim. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The question always comes up, who do you hire if you fire Dorsey?

 

I hear people say they want an experienced OC. I actually don’t. I would want a fresh face.

 

Thats the thing. Our offense is good. I don’t think it should be much better statistically. I think they’re right where they should be.

 

Add another top weapon to the offense and then I would feel differently.

 

I’m envisioning someone like Micheal Thomas with those hands and that catch radius adding a lot of value. Wonder if saints would offer him up for a fourth or something. 
 

DeVante Adams is my pipe dream. 

[VaMilBill]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The question always comes up, who do you hire if you fire Dorsey?

 

I hear people say they want an experienced OC. I actually don’t. I would want a fresh face.

 

Thats the thing. Our offense is good. I don’t think it should be much better statistically. I think they’re right where they should be.

 

Add another top weapon to the offense and then I would feel differently.

 

You promote Joe Brady and see what he can do as OC. You’re not changing up the offense this season, simply adding some new wrinkles and a different mind calling plays. 
 

if Joe Brady struggles, then we need to hire another OC.  

[Big Turk]

Can we have an official "Stop starting idiotic threads" thread?  

 

There isn't anything close to something firable at this point. 

 

Annoying at times? Yes.

 

Firable?

 

 

C'MON MAN!

Edited October 16, 2023 by Big Turk

[LyndonvilleBill]

2 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

You promote Joe Brady and see what he can do as OC. You’re not changing up the offense this season, simply adding some new wrinkles and a different mind calling plays. 
 

if Joe Brady struggles, then we need to hire another OC.  

I wish McD could just bench him for a game or two like he does when someone fumbles a ball. Put Brady in for a game or two and see what happens. 😁

[HoofHearted]

10 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Yeah no trust me bro doesn’t work. 
 

back your claim that Allen is going off script. Where is the hold package Mr progressional. Ooo wait others also do this a long time professionally. 
 

Heck everyone makes educated guesses in every profession. That is much different than your claim. 

I have. You refuse to listen. I've also said it's not "off-script". When he is seeing man coverage he's just picking the match-up he likes best. This has been Diggs the vast majority of times this year. It's no different than taking "the gift" in 3x1 sets. If the defense is playing off to the single side you can ignore the concept progression and throw the 5 yard stop since they're just giving it to you.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He locked on Diggs. Only 3 in the route. 
 

 

 

doesn’t it look like he’s loading up for Gabe a little bit then decides not to? 

[GoBills808]

37 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Two weeks in a row now the opposing team hit lofting the ball to an outside go with. Db draped all over him before safety help gets there. 
 

T-Law hit one to Ridley then Tyrod hit one on each sideline. Why is that not is the Bill arsenal?

 

30 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

The Bills rarely run man coverage, I think the two Tryhard hit were not man, but was definitely cover2 safeties 
 

 

I think the one to Ridley vs Jags was man tho if we are thinking of the same one, third and 4 the brought pressure and man across the board

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I have. You refuse to listen. I've also said it's not "off-script". When he is seeing man coverage he's just picking the match-up he likes best. This has been Diggs the vast majority of times this year. It's no different than taking "the gift" in 3x1 sets. If the defense is playing off to the single side you can ignore the concept progression and throw the 5 yard stop since they're just giving it to you.

So again you have proof Dorsey tell Josh hey in man coverage do whatever you want? Ignore the design of the route concepts 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

 

I think the one to Ridley vs Jags was man tho if we are thinking of the same one, third and 4 the brought pressure and man across the board

The one to Ridley was definitely man.  

And cover zero

[hondo in seattle]

I'm not a Dorsey fan but if we fire him midseason, I'm afraid the alternative will be no better and possibly worse.  

 

I'm not opposed to McD checking out who's available after the season, though.  

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

doesn’t it look like he’s loading up for Gabe a little bit then decides not to? 

If he was he should have let it fly. Gabe was open. 

[HoofHearted]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

So again you have proof Dorsey tell Josh hey in man coverage do whatever you want? Ignore the design of the route concepts 

It matters to me not if you wish to continue to be ignorant and uninformed...