Israel and the Slaughter in Gaza

[aristocrat]

19 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

It's like killing an idea. Not something you can just do 

Name the ideas hamas has please. As many as you can 

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, JDHillFan said:

There’s been no shortage of sh*t on his watch. I’m glad you agree. 

Nobody is paying any mind to Joe because they know the staff and beauracracy  surrounding him are running the administration, and by default domestic and foriegn policy. 

The Israeli's ignore him, the Palestinian's have no faith in him, the Houthi's laugh at him, the Iranians are unafraid. 

Only some very slow to figure it out self-described liberal geniuses believe he's in charge.

[Andy1]

An immediate cease fire on both sides should happen immediately after the release of all Israeli hostages. The path to peace is obvious. Netanyahu doesn’t care what Biden thinks. He would rather see Trump be elected in November.  Politics in America is not going to influence military decisions during war for Israel. Hamas seems happy to sacrifice the lives of their friends and families for their cause. That has been their plan. The war will end sooner or later, the timing is up to Hamas. 
 

What happens after the war is the big unknown. 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[B-Man]

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

 

Madam Vice President, there was a ceasefire.

Hamas broke it, slaughtering women and unborn babies.

 

Get rid of Hamas, then a ceasefire, but she it too stupid to understand that.

 

 

 

Bizzarro World.

 

VP Harris to meet Israeli war cabinet member Monday

NewsNation

https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/war-in-israel/harris-israeli-war-cabinet/#:~:text=U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris,flow of aid to Gaza.

 

 

 

 

.

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 3/1/2024 at 1:57 PM, Tiberius said:

It's very much turning into a genocide 

 

It just is 

 

Here ya go, Tibs!

 

The United Nations’ definition of genocide: “Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group.

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

 

The definition of ethnic cleansing: “The systematic and forced removal of an ethnic, religious, or racial group from a given area, with the intent of making that area ethnically homogeneous.”

 

The definition of collective punishment: “A punishment imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group.”

 

Other than clause #5 in the genocide criteria, I could argue that Israel is guilty of all of the above. The ICJ has already called the genocide accusation “plausible.” Here is my own list of reasons why I would advance the charge from “plausible” to “probable” (please feel free to edit or add):

 

1. A completely unacceptable civilian casualty ratio, by historical war standards, of 9.9:1 (this is a 90.8% civilian casualty percentage…34,570 civilian deaths to 3,496 combatant deaths…source: Euro-Med HRM, Feb 23).

2. Woefully inadequate actions taken to prevent famine in Gaza.

3. Two million displaced Gazans, with no apparent plans provided or promises given for returning to their homes.

4. Numerous instances of documented and suspected war crimes, such as the most recent IDF convoy slaughter in northern Gaza.

5. Incendiary and dehumanizing rhetoric from far-right government leaders that indicate genocidal intent.

6. Official Israeli government rejection of any future talks for two-state or one-state solutions.

7. Hostage rescue not appearing to be a high priority, as many Israeli citizen protestors have argued and as the appearance of indiscriminate bombing in Jabalia, Gaza City, and Khan Younis suggests.

8. No articulation of what a “victory” over Hamas would look like, along with a distinct lack of awareness in how their October 7 retribution will multiply manyfold a new generation of Hamas-like terrorists.

9. Evidence of cultural erasure with hundreds of mosques, schools, cemeteries, and heritage sites destroyed.

10. Innumerable attempts to obfuscate and conceal war crimes via bureaucratic lying (UNRWA worker allegations, etc.), preventions of media access inside Gaza, and false propaganda campaigns (Anat Schwartz, etc.)…not to mention attacks on 173 press headquarters and the deaths of 130+ journalists.

11. Guilt by historical context: Zionism’s ideological roots in settler colonialism and the ensuing ethnostate practices of apartheid, violent acts of ethnic cleansing such as the 1948 Nakba, repeatedly broken promises during negotiations with Palestinians, and land seizures like after the 1967 Six-Day War or like the illegal West Bank settlements which are intended to break up Palestinian land contiguity.

12. Guilt by association: Israel existing as a critical Middle Eastern proxy state for an imperialistic sugar daddy, the American Empire…and we Americans are responsible for a litany of our own international ethics violations (disastrous regime-change wars, organized coups, drone strikes, and general labor/resource exploitation throughout the Middle East and the Americas…dating back to the Monroe Doctrine, really).

13. An imminent Rafah invasion that will likely only strengthen the charges against Israel.

 

Note that some of the aforementioned reasons are obviously not crimes, but they are meant to establish INTENT, which is apparently a very critical component of ICJ genocide charges.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Here ya go, Tibs!

 

The United Nations’ definition of genocide: “Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group.

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

 

The definition of ethnic cleansing: “The systematic and forced removal of an ethnic, religious, or racial group from a given area, with the intent of making that area ethnically homogeneous.”

 

The definition of collective punishment: “A punishment imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group.”

 

Other than clause #5 in the genocide criteria, I could argue that Israel is guilty of all of the above. The ICJ has already called the genocide accusation “plausible.” Here is my own list of reasons why I would advance the charge from “plausible” to “probable” (please feel free to edit or add):

 

1. A completely unacceptable civilian casualty ratio, by historical war standards, of 9.9:1 (this is a 90.8% civilian casualty percentage…34,570 civilian deaths to 3,496 combatant deaths…source: Euro-Med HRM, Feb 23).

2. Woefully inadequate actions taken to prevent famine in Gaza.

3. Two million displaced Gazans, with no apparent plans provided or promises given for returning to their homes.

4. Numerous instances of documented and suspected war crimes, such as the most recent IDF convoy slaughter in northern Gaza.

5. Incendiary and dehumanizing rhetoric from far-right government leaders that indicate genocidal intent.

6. Official Israeli government rejection of any future talks for two-state or one-state solutions.

7. Hostage rescue not appearing to be a high priority, as many Israeli citizen protestors have argued and as the appearance of indiscriminate bombing in Jabalia, Gaza City, and Khan Younis suggests.

8. No articulation of what a “victory” over Hamas would look like, along with a distinct lack of awareness in how their October 7 retribution will multiply manyfold a new generation of Hamas-like terrorists.

9. Evidence of cultural erasure with hundreds of mosques, schools, cemeteries, and heritage sites destroyed.

10. Innumerable attempts to obfuscate and conceal war crimes via bureaucratic lying (UNRWA worker allegations, etc.), preventions of media access inside Gaza, and false propaganda campaigns (Anat Schwartz, etc.)…not to mention attacks on 173 press headquarters and the deaths of 130+ journalists.

11. Guilt by historical context: Zionism’s ideological roots in settler colonialism and the ensuing ethnostate practices of apartheid, violent acts of ethnic cleansing such as the 1948 Nakba, repeatedly broken promises during negotiations with Palestinians, and land seizures like after the 1967 Six-Day War or like the illegal West Bank settlements which are intended to break up Palestinian land contiguity.

12. Guilt by association: Israel existing as a critical Middle Eastern proxy state for an imperialistic sugar daddy, the American Empire…and we Americans are responsible for a litany of our own international ethics violations (disastrous regime-change wars, organized coups, drone strikes, and general labor/resource exploitation throughout the Middle East and the Americas…dating back to the Monroe Doctrine, really).

13. An imminent Rafah invasion that will likely only strengthen the charges against Israel.

 

Note that some of the aforementioned reasons are obviously not crimes, but they are meant to establish INTENT, which is apparently a very critical component of ICJ genocide charges.

 

Should have thought twice about October 7th, then.  But people often can't see beyond their noses.

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Here ya go, Tibs!

 

The United Nations’ definition of genocide: “Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group.

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

 

The definition of ethnic cleansing: “The systematic and forced removal of an ethnic, religious, or racial group from a given area, with the intent of making that area ethnically homogeneous.”

 

The definition of collective punishment: “A punishment imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group.”

 

Other than clause #5 in the genocide criteria, I could argue that Israel is guilty of all of the above. The ICJ has already called the genocide accusation “plausible.” Here is my own list of reasons why I would advance the charge from “plausible” to “probable” (please feel free to edit or add):

 

1. A completely unacceptable civilian casualty ratio, by historical war standards, of 9.9:1 (this is a 90.8% civilian casualty percentage…34,570 civilian deaths to 3,496 combatant deaths…source: Euro-Med HRM, Feb 23).

2. Woefully inadequate actions taken to prevent famine in Gaza.

3. Two million displaced Gazans, with no apparent plans provided or promises given for returning to their homes.

4. Numerous instances of documented and suspected war crimes, such as the most recent IDF convoy slaughter in northern Gaza.

5. Incendiary and dehumanizing rhetoric from far-right government leaders that indicate genocidal intent.

6. Official Israeli government rejection of any future talks for two-state or one-state solutions.

7. Hostage rescue not appearing to be a high priority, as many Israeli citizen protestors have argued and as the appearance of indiscriminate bombing in Jabalia, Gaza City, and Khan Younis suggests.

8. No articulation of what a “victory” over Hamas would look like, along with a distinct lack of awareness in how their October 7 retribution will multiply manyfold a new generation of Hamas-like terrorists.

9. Evidence of cultural erasure with hundreds of mosques, schools, cemeteries, and heritage sites destroyed.

10. Innumerable attempts to obfuscate and conceal war crimes via bureaucratic lying (UNRWA worker allegations, etc.), preventions of media access inside Gaza, and false propaganda campaigns (Anat Schwartz, etc.)…not to mention attacks on 173 press headquarters and the deaths of 130+ journalists.

11. Guilt by historical context: Zionism’s ideological roots in settler colonialism and the ensuing ethnostate practices of apartheid, violent acts of ethnic cleansing such as the 1948 Nakba, repeatedly broken promises during negotiations with Palestinians, and land seizures like after the 1967 Six-Day War or like the illegal West Bank settlements which are intended to break up Palestinian land contiguity.

12. Guilt by association: Israel existing as a critical Middle Eastern proxy state for an imperialistic sugar daddy, the American Empire…and we Americans are responsible for a litany of our own international ethics violations (disastrous regime-change wars, organized coups, drone strikes, and general labor/resource exploitation throughout the Middle East and the Americas…dating back to the Monroe Doctrine, really).

13. An imminent Rafah invasion that will likely only strengthen the charges against Israel.

 

Note that some of the aforementioned reasons are obviously not crimes, but they are meant to establish INTENT, which is apparently a very critical component of ICJ genocide charges.

Thanks for that. Nothing like seeing it all laid out.

 

These points really make me think this is about never ending war. Getting the situation so that its almost guaranteed to repeat itself.

 

And American has also done some fine thing overseas (Japan and South Korea), along with the bad things.

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Here ya go, Tibs!

 

The United Nations’ definition of genocide: “Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group.

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

 

The definition of ethnic cleansing: “The systematic and forced removal of an ethnic, religious, or racial group from a given area, with the intent of making that area ethnically homogeneous.”

 

The definition of collective punishment: “A punishment imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group.”

 

Other than clause #5 in the genocide criteria, I could argue that Israel is guilty of all of the above. The ICJ has already called the genocide accusation “plausible.” Here is my own list of reasons why I would advance the charge from “plausible” to “probable” (please feel free to edit or add):

 

1. A completely unacceptable civilian casualty ratio, by historical war standards, of 9.9:1 (this is a 90.8% civilian casualty percentage…34,570 civilian deaths to 3,496 combatant deaths…source: Euro-Med HRM, Feb 23).

2. Woefully inadequate actions taken to prevent famine in Gaza.

3. Two million displaced Gazans, with no apparent plans provided or promises given for returning to their homes.

4. Numerous instances of documented and suspected war crimes, such as the most recent IDF convoy slaughter in northern Gaza.

5. Incendiary and dehumanizing rhetoric from far-right government leaders that indicate genocidal intent.

6. Official Israeli government rejection of any future talks for two-state or one-state solutions.

7. Hostage rescue not appearing to be a high priority, as many Israeli citizen protestors have argued and as the appearance of indiscriminate bombing in Jabalia, Gaza City, and Khan Younis suggests.

8. No articulation of what a “victory” over Hamas would look like, along with a distinct lack of awareness in how their October 7 retribution will multiply manyfold a new generation of Hamas-like terrorists.

9. Evidence of cultural erasure with hundreds of mosques, schools, cemeteries, and heritage sites destroyed.

10. Innumerable attempts to obfuscate and conceal war crimes via bureaucratic lying (UNRWA worker allegations, etc.), preventions of media access inside Gaza, and false propaganda campaigns (Anat Schwartz, etc.)…not to mention attacks on 173 press headquarters and the deaths of 130+ journalists.

11. Guilt by historical context: Zionism’s ideological roots in settler colonialism and the ensuing ethnostate practices of apartheid, violent acts of ethnic cleansing such as the 1948 Nakba, repeatedly broken promises during negotiations with Palestinians, and land seizures like after the 1967 Six-Day War or like the illegal West Bank settlements which are intended to break up Palestinian land contiguity.

12. Guilt by association: Israel existing as a critical Middle Eastern proxy state for an imperialistic sugar daddy, the American Empire…and we Americans are responsible for a litany of our own international ethics violations (disastrous regime-change wars, organized coups, drone strikes, and general labor/resource exploitation throughout the Middle East and the Americas…dating back to the Monroe Doctrine, really).

13. An imminent Rafah invasion that will likely only strengthen the charges against Israel.

 

Note that some of the aforementioned reasons are obviously not crimes, but they are meant to establish INTENT, which is apparently a very critical component of ICJ genocide charges.

Well done.  But the world doesn't run strictly on some rules based order.  Under the current set of arrangements and alliances, no US administration is ever going to allow Israel to face any formal charges of genocide or other actions consistent with "war crimes".  No matter their intent or how many civilians they end up killing.  Like it or not Washington wields both formal and informal "veto power" and decides who will be held accountable and who will be allowed to "break" the rules.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4 by All_Pro_Bills

[The Frankish Reich]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Well done.  But the world doesn't run strictly on some rules based order.  Under the current set of arrangements and alliances, no US administration is ever going to allow Israel to face any formal charges of genocide or other actions consistent with "war crimes".  No matter their intent or how many civilians they end up killing.  Like it or not Washington wields both formal and informal "veto power" and decides who will be held accountable and who will be allowed to "break" the rules.  

 

 

 

 

True, but you are mixing up a couple things.

The International Court of Justice (the old so-called "World Court") is not subject to a U.S. (or other country's) veto in its decision-making. The U.S. has been found to be in violation of international law before, and Israel may be now.

That's separate (but related) to the question of enforcement of such an order. And here you're correct. But that doesn't make an ICJ decision meaningless, which is why the accused countries actually defend themselves before that court.

[B-Man]

 

 

STICKING POINTS

By Scott Johnson

 

Reading about the ceasefire negotiations that the ceasefire negotiations with which the Biden administration hopes to engineer a Hamas victory requires a certain kind of immunity to savagery. Hamas seeks to trade kidnapped Israelis for terrorists who can help Hamas finish the task it undertook on October 7. The Hamas terrorists are murderers and genocidaires. The Israelis are, well, you know, Jewish.

 

Hamas seeks ten terrorists in exchange for every kidnapped Israeli and Israel seems okay with the proposition and the ratio.

 

However, the Israelis declined to show up in Cairo for further negotiations so long as Hamas refuses to provide a list of living kidnap victims. The Israelis assess that 31 of the kidnap victims taken by Hamas on October 7 are now dead. This is either elided in mainstream news accounts or referred to euphemistically as one of the “sticking points.” The Times of Israel summed up the status of negotiations yesterday:

 

Israel has said that 31 of the 130 hostages held since October 7 are dead. The first phase of the mooted deal is reported to provide for the release of 40 of the living hostages, including women, children, the elderly and the sick, in the course of a six-week truce, and in exchange for some 400 Palestinian security prisoners. The outline reportedly provides for negotiations on the further phased release of the remaining hostages, living and dead, in return for longer pauses in the fighting and many more Palestinian prisoner releases.

On Sunday afternoon, a Hamas official told CNN that the group will not agree to a deal without Israel consenting to an end to the war in Gaza, a non-starter for Israel.

Citing “a highly placed source” in the terror group, CNN reported that the two other areas of disagreement holding up a deal are the withdrawal of IDF troops from Gaza, and Gazan civilians being allowed to return to the northern Gaza Strip.

 

 

Vice President Harris found this a good time to hammer Israel yesterday in Selma, Alabama (White House transcript here). Israel is apparently responsible for “the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.” Why, “just a few days ago, we saw hungry, desperate people approach aid trucks, simply trying to secure food for their families after weeks of nearly no aid reaching Northern Gaza. And they were met with gunfire and chaos.” The savages of Hamas have their allies among the idiots, useful or otherwise, of the Biden administration.

 

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2024/03/sticking-points.php

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-wont-send-team-to-cairo-after-hamas-refuses-to-offer-list-of-living-hostages/

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2024/03/03/remarks-by-vice-president-harris-commemorating-the-59th-anniversary-of-bloody-sunday-selma-al/

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

Is it better to be the (alleged) party of Putin or Iran?

[Pokebball]

3 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Thanks for that. Nothing like seeing it all laid out.

 

These points really make me think this is about never ending war. Getting the situation so that its almost guaranteed to repeat itself.

 

And American has also done some fine thing overseas (Japan and South Korea), along with the bad things.

There's actually been quite a few cease fires.

[Tiberius]

18 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

There's actually been quite a few cease fires.

Yes

[Irv]

Hilarious!

 

 

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

4 minutes ago, Irv said:

Hilarious!

 

 

 

 

 

But VP Harris says "fight on" in Georgia. 

 

After opening for only one day, a Six Flags amusement park near Atlanta, Georgia was overrun by a mob of up to 600 rioters who proceeded to fight each other and destroy property.  The incident led to a shootout involving the Cobb County Police Department and resulted in the hospitalization of an alleged assailant. 

[Irv]

2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

But VP Harris says "fight on" in Georgia. 

 

After opening for only one day, a Six Flags amusement park near Atlanta, Georgia was overrun by a mob of up to 600 rioters who proceeded to fight each other and destroy property.  The incident led to a shootout involving the Cobb County Police Department and resulted in the hospitalization of an alleged assailant. 

 

Shame in you.  That was a peaceful protest.  Let them all go. 

[Tiberius]

 

[Andy1]

I’m all for international standards in war but if you are going to apply them to Israel, they should also be applied to the actions and official declarations of Hamas.
 

I keep thinking to myself, “What would America do if we had a neighbor like Hamas next to us, in a place like Gaza, who had a declared policy for our extermination, who also attacked us at a proportional scale as what Israel suffered?” I’m not sure we would do anything different. Would the American public be concerned about the lives of those people? Look at our response to September 11. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Andy1 said:

I’m all for international standards in war but if you are going to apply them to Israel, they should also be applied to the actions and official declarations of Hamas.
 

I keep thinking to myself, “What would America do if we had a neighbor like Hamas next to us, in a place like Gaza, who had a declared policy for our extermination, who also attacked us at a proportional scale as what Israel suffered?” I’m not sure we would do anything different. Would the American public be concerned about the lives of those people? Look at our response to September 11. 

Good point. I've been thinking along the same lines. It's a difficult comparison because we're talking about a densely populated sliver of land, not the wide of expanse of theoretical attacker Canada/Mexico. But isn't it important that we didn't try to bomb Afghanistan into an uninhabitable place? We attacked Taliban strongholds and training camps, and then embarked on an ill-advised nation-building operation. I'm not sure there is anything comparable.

[Pokebball]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Good point. I've been thinking along the same lines. It's a difficult comparison because we're talking about a densely populated sliver of land, not the wide of expanse of theoretical attacker Canada/Mexico. But isn't it important that we didn't try to bomb Afghanistan into an uninhabitable place? We attacked Taliban strongholds and training camps, and then embarked on an ill-advised nation-building operation. I'm not sure there is anything comparable.

Afghanistan simply can't be compared.  

[US Egg]

They wouldn’t lie…..

 

 

Hamas are animals and always will be.

[Irv]

I noted quite a while back that Gaza should be nuked.  Now here we are.  What a mess.  

 

 

Edited March 5 by Irv

[Tiberius]

8 hours ago, US Egg said:

They wouldn’t lie…..

 

 

Hamas are animals and always will be.

Yes, they are sh it

 

Most Palestinians are not Hamas. But with Israel mass starving people, I bet they will have a  lot more recruits

[US Egg]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Yes, they are sh it

 

Most Palestinians are not Hamas. But with Israel mass starving people, I bet they will have a  lot more recruits

Yeah, and the Hamas recruits won’t rape and mutilate. 

[Justice]

9 hours ago, US Egg said:

They wouldn’t lie…..

 

 

Hamas are animals and always will be.

So now we believe the UN? Lol. Attaboy. Let’s veto everything that comes from the UN and then cite the UN’s reports when it’s beneficial to us. Foh. What happened to all those so called lies that came from the UN? We trust this one though. Gotcha. Foh. 

On 3/3/2024 at 8:25 PM, Andy1 said:

An immediate cease fire on both sides should happen immediately after the release of all Israeli hostages. The path to peace is obvious. Netanyahu doesn’t care what Biden thinks. He would rather see Trump be elected in November.  Politics in America is not going to influence military decisions during war for Israel. Hamas seems happy to sacrifice the lives of their friends and families for their cause. That has been their plan. The war will end sooner or later, the timing is up to Hamas. 
 

What happens after the war is the big unknown. 

 

Earlier in the conflict Netanyahu said releasing the hostages won’t end the siege. The Israelis have killed a lot of their own hostages. They dgaf about their hostages. 

On 3/4/2024 at 8:57 AM, Doc said:

 

Should have thought twice about October 7th, then.  But people often can't see beyond their noses.

Every accusation is a confession. 

[US Egg]

1 hour ago, Justice said:

So now we believe the UN? Lol. Attaboy. Let’s veto everything that comes from the UN and then cite the UN’s reports when it’s beneficial to us. Foh. What happened to all those so called lies that came from the UN? We trust this one though. Gotcha. Foh. 

See someone broke out of their cage.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

50 minutes ago, Justice said:

So now we believe the UN? Lol. Attaboy. Let’s veto everything that comes from the UN and then cite the UN’s reports when it’s beneficial to us. Foh. What happened to all those so called lies that came from the UN? We trust this one though. Gotcha. Foh. 

Earlier in the conflict Netanyahu said releasing the hostages won’t end the siege. The Israelis have killed a lot of their own hostages. They dgaf about their hostages. 

Every accusation is a confession. 

I've stayed out of this dialogue for the most part.  What I know about this conflict, International politics and never-ending hostilities could fill a thimble.  That said, if I have a tendency to believe one side or the other more frequently, it would be the Israeli side.  I recognize both sides play a role in the conflict, that the truth is often in the middle, and that governments lie, manipulate and coerce on a regular basis. There are precious few truly good guys here. 

 

From the outside looking in, I'd think the Israeli's care deeply about their hostages, and would love nothing more than to get them back as unscathed as possible at this point.   I'd think that applies at the top of the government as well, but the government is pragmatic and understands the likely outcome of all this.  

 

On the flip side, I would think the citizens of Gaza feel the same way about loss and pain of their people, those lost in this conflict and those they feel were imprisoned unjustifiably.  Their suffering is horrific, and sadly, it seems like that will continue. 

 

The difference maker for me here is Hamas, and I believe leadership embraces death, terror and despair as a means of controlling and consolidating power.  As the controlling influence in that region for nearly 20 years, I guess the question I come back to is this:  What should the ordinary, everyday citizens do about Hamas?  Embrace them?  Reject them?  Negotiate?  

 

Here's a link to an opinion piece from New York Magazine:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/dont-blame-gazans-for-hamas.html

 

I read this, realize I'm 7 or 8 paragraphs in and can point to nothing of value the author is bringing to the table, and this article seems at least mostly pro-Gaza.  I get to the end and no solution seems forthcoming.  

 

If I had a friend nearby who was Palestinian, I guess I would ask for his/her opinion and clarity on this issue.  Since I don't, I'll ask you.  Assume a cease-fire, the release of all hostages and an acceptable number released from Israeli prison today. 

 

What happens tomorrow?  

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Justice said:

Every accusation is a confession. 

 

A confession...of what?  That I believe Hamas deserves to be wiped off the face of the Earth?  Guilty as charged then.

[sherpa]

At some point, rational people, if they exist in this realm, will realize that every single on of these Iranian surrogates is doing their bidding at immense cost and no hope for success.

Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis are all going to lose this battle.

 

The Palestinian civilian population will bear the brunt, but the struggle to eliminate Israel is a stupid, losing battle that will never succeed and needs to be abandoned.

 

The faster that is realized, the lower the body count.

[Andy1]

Back in December there was a public opinion poll of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. At that time, only 10% believed Hamas had committed war crimes. Hamas was still the most popular political party. Support for armed violence against Israel increased to 69% compared to 58% before October 7. A rational person would conclude that decades of violence against Israel only brings pain and suffering to Palestinians with no progress towards their desire for a stable, peaceful future, but there is no evidence that they think that way. 
 

It seems to me that the only (remote) possibility for peace is for both Hamas and Netanyahu to be gone from power. New leaders are needed on both sides. 
 

https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll 90 English press release 13 Dec 2023 Final New.pdf

[sherpa]

11 minutes ago, Andy1 said:

 

It seems to me that the only (remote) possibility for peace is for both Hamas and Netanyahu to be gone from power. New leaders are needed on both sides. 
 

 

Israel can do its normal democratic thing.

Hamas needs to be eliminated.

Seventeen years, and all they have done is build an underground tunnel system designed to wage war against Israel, under the idiotic support of Iran who is determined to use surrogates to chase some foolish and unattainable goal to eliminate Israel.

 

Again, Hamas needs to be eliminated.

[Big Blitz]

Idiocracy.  
 

 

“France just needs to do its thing.”

 

—-Thomas Jefferson, 1792 probably.  

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 3/4/2024 at 8:57 AM, Doc said:

Should have thought twice about October 7th, then.  But people often can't see beyond their noses.

 

Um…ok….well, collective punishment is an official war crime. The total number of Hamas combatants was estimated at about 30,000 last year. The rest of the 2+ million affected Gazans had nothing to do with October 7 and were simply living their lives before Israel initiated the genocide. An overwhelming majority of Gazans never even voted for Hamas back in 2006. And even if they do support Hamas, that’s kind of like saying every American who supported the Bush Jr. administration during the second Iraq War and the Afghanistan War deserved death at the hands of radical Islamic terrorists.

 

On 3/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, Tiberius said:

Thanks for that. Nothing like seeing it all laid out.

 

These points really make me think this is about never ending war. Getting the situation so that its almost guaranteed to repeat itself.

 

And American has also done some fine thing overseas (Japan and South Korea), along with the bad things.

 

Yes, endless war is profitable for the American military-industrial complex. AIPAC campaign donations help, too. Interminable warfare also helps keep Netanyahu and his far-right sociopathic friends in power. I do believe Israel has some sort of end goal, however: full Palestinian land seizure and the hope that the international community takes in the displaced Palestinian population.

 

The bottom line is that Status Quo Joe has plenty of leverage to immediately end this genocide that he chooses not to exercise. Reagan successfully pressured Israel during the 1982 Lebanon War. H.W. Bush played hardball with West Bank settlers in 1991. Biden should be taking a similarly active and aggressive role in negotiations that include demands for a permanent ceasefire, hostage releases, financial remediation, immediate humanitarian relief, and outlines for a two-state (or preferably one-state) solution. Otherwise, all our military aid to Israel should be promptly withheld.

 

One would think that the specter of losing to Trump in November would be ample motivation to BLEEPING do something here!! We’re seeing multiple dead canaries in this Gazan crisis coal mine: the “Uncommitted” primary votes in Michigan (and elsewhere tonight on Super Tuesday??), nationwide poll shifts reflecting a great moral awakening for the plight of Palestinians, and consecutive months with sagging poll numbers behind Trump. This is why I’m beginning to theorize that the DNC and the center-left corporate oligarchs will push to elevate someone like Gretchen Whitmer at the August convention. She is salable as a tabula rasa for the Gaza crisis, checks the female/age/swing state/governorship boxes, is strong on the flagship issue of abortion, and still has progressive oratorical pivoting potential.

 

Regarding my foreign policy cynicism: I rarely mention the good aspects of American foreign policy because too much back-patting distracts from elucidating all the grave problems with American imperialism. That’s just how Commie Kay rolls.

 

On 3/4/2024 at 10:03 AM, All_Pro_Bills said:

Well done.  But the world doesn't run strictly on some rules based order.  Under the current set of arrangements and alliances, no US administration is ever going to allow Israel to face any formal charges of genocide or other actions consistent with "war crimes".  No matter their intent or how many civilians they end up killing.  Like it or not Washington wields both formal and informal "veto power" and decides who will be held accountable and who will be allowed to "break" the rules.

 

I think economic restraints will ultimately prevail in ways that institutions of international law cannot. Israel is rapidly devolving to “pariah state” status. BDS movements are picking up global momentum. Israel’s economy has already shrunk by 20%. Local businesses are suffering from both Israeli conscription and the loss of Gazan migrant workers. The Netanyahu regime is provoking an expensive multi-front war with Hezbollah, Egypt, and other Arab nations. Even the United States may eventually resort to pulling back the purse strings, at the behest of progressive Democrats and all other Americans with a functioning moral compass.

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

Um…ok….well, collective punishment is an official war crime. The total number of Hamas combatants was estimated at about 30,000 last year. The rest of the 2+ million affected Gazans had nothing to do with October 7 and were simply living their lives before Israel initiated the genocide. An overwhelming majority of Gazans never even voted for Hamas back in 2006. And even if they do support Hamas, that’s kind of like saying every American who supported the Bush Jr. administration during the second Iraq War and the Afghanistan War deserved death at the hands of radical Islamic terrorists.

 

What do you call using (your own, no less) citizens as human shields and hiding military command centers in hospitals and schools?  Not war crimes?

[ComradeKayAdams]

49 minutes ago, Doc said:

What do you call using (your own, no less) citizens as human shields and hiding military command centers in hospitals and schools?  Not war crimes?

 

I would call those war crimes from Hamas, yes. Your “whataboutism” debate tactics annoy me. You don’t see me arguing that the Arab world should level Haifa and Tel Aviv because of the Gaza genocide.

 

Let’s imagine this scenario: a small group of armed killers are loose in your neighborhood. They are hiding in backyards and bushes and basements…possibly digging tunnels between properties, too. The SWAT team arrives, barricades the neighborhood perimeter, hurriedly tells everyone to leave the premises, proceeds to firebomb all the houses, and ends up killing dozens of residents in the process…including your loved ones! How would you feel?? Would you accept this outcome as the necessary cost of stopping crime? Or would you not-so-politely request that the police force consider more calculated and more precise measures and protocols?

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Let’s imagine this scenario: a small group of armed killers are loose in your neighborhood. They are hiding in backyards and bushes and basements…possibly digging tunnels between properties, too. The SWAT team arrives, barricades the neighborhood perimeter, hurriedly tells everyone to leave the premises, proceeds to firebomb all the houses, and ends up killing dozens of residents in the process…including your loved ones! How would you feel?? Would you accept this outcome as the necessary cost of stopping crime? Or would you not-so-politely request that the police force consider more calculated and more precise measures and p rotocols?

 

I would start by telling the armed killers to stop launching warhead carrying rockets into civilian populations.

I would tell these "armed killers" that killing, kidnapping in order to hold hostages, torturing, raping and filming these events would not be tolerated.

I would hesitate to judge the response until I had some idea of what they were actually doing, and what measures they were taking to prevent loss of life.

I would never believe the casualty counts provided by the attackers, who are completely incapable of ever telling the truth while their leaders hide in foreign countries and count their riches while sacrificing thousands of innocent people.

I would hold the attackers responsible for doing nothing in seventeen years of "rule" other than building an underground system in civilian areas including hospitals and schools for the sole purpose of waging war to eliminate a neighbor that is not going to be eliminated.

 

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, Doc said:

 

What do you call using (your own, no less) citizens as human shields and hiding military command centers in hospitals and schools?  Not war crimes?

Is there a term worse than war crimes?

 

6 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Um…ok….well, collective punishment is an official war crime. The total number of Hamas combatants was estimated at about 30,000 last year. The rest of the 2+ million affected Gazans had nothing to do with October 7 and were simply living their lives before Israel initiated the genocide. An overwhelming majority of Gazans never even voted for Hamas back in 2006. And even if they do support Hamas, that’s kind of like saying every American who supported the Bush Jr. administration during the second Iraq War and the Afghanistan War deserved death at the hands of radical Islamic terrorists.

No it's not.  Horrible analogy.  It would be the Israelites who support Netanyahu deserve death at the hands of Hamas.

Edited March 6 by Doc Brown

[Tiberius]

11 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

 

Yes, endless war is profitable for the American military-industrial complex. AIPAC campaign donations help, too. Interminable warfare also helps keep Netanyahu and his far-right sociopathic friends in power. I do believe Israel has some sort of end goal, however: full Palestinian land seizure and the hope that the international community takes in the displaced Palestinian population.

 

The bottom line is that Status Quo Joe has plenty of leverage to immediately end this genocide that he chooses not to exercise. Reagan successfully pressured Israel during the 1982 Lebanon War. H.W. Bush played hardball with West Bank settlers in 1991. Biden should be taking a similarly active and aggressive role in negotiations that include demands for a permanent ceasefire, hostage releases, financial remediation, immediate humanitarian relief, and outlines for a two-state (or preferably one-state) solution. Otherwise, all our military aid to Israel should be promptly withheld.

 

One would think that the specter of losing to Trump in November would be ample motivation to BLEEPING do something here!! We’re seeing multiple dead canaries in this Gazan crisis coal mine: the “Uncommitted” primary votes in Michigan (and elsewhere tonight on Super Tuesday??), nationwide poll shifts reflecting a great moral awakening for the plight of Palestinians, and consecutive months with sagging poll numbers behind Trump. This is why I’m beginning to theorize that the DNC and the center-left corporate oligarchs will push to elevate someone like Gretchen Whitmer at the August convention. She is salable as a tabula rasa for the Gaza crisis, checks the female/age/swing state/governorship boxes, is strong on the flagship issue of abortion, and still has progressive oratorical pivoting potential.

 

Regarding my foreign policy cynicism: I rarely mention the good aspects of American foreign policy because too much back-patting distracts from elucidating all the grave problems with American imperialism. That’s just how Commie Kay rolls.

 

 

 

Keep rolling Comie Kay! Foreign policy is so tough because the rest of the world doesn't vote in our elections...directly. Hopefully the "City upon a hill" message shins through for a better world

[Doc]

11 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

I would call those war crimes from Hamas, yes. Your “whataboutism” debate tactics annoy me. You don’t see me arguing that the Arab world should level Haifa and Tel Aviv because of the Gaza genocide.

 

Let’s imagine this scenario: a small group of armed killers are loose in your neighborhood. They are hiding in backyards and bushes and basements…possibly digging tunnels between properties, too. The SWAT team arrives, barricades the neighborhood perimeter, hurriedly tells everyone to leave the premises, proceeds to firebomb all the houses, and ends up killing dozens of residents in the process…including your loved ones! How would you feel?? Would you accept this outcome as the necessary cost of stopping crime? Or would you not-so-politely request that the police force consider more calculated and more precise measures and protocols?

 

LOL!  Who the ***** cares?