Dungy/Colts vs McDermott/Bills

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

1 hour ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Can you imagine wanting to fire the winningest coach in Bills history because of a fake narrative that he is not offensive minded?

 

I don't want to fire him (yet) and I couldn't care less that he's a defensive minded head coach. 

 

What I care about is that his "side" of the ball has been absolutely dominated in 3 straight playoff losses, that the entire team looked woefully unprepared for 2 of those games, and that 13 seconds was an all time coaching blunder. 

 

From what I can remember Dungy's defenses with the Colts played relatively well in their losses (other than the 41-0 loss to the Jets). I don't recall any coaching blunders like 13 seconds by him either, but it has been a while. 

[Chicken Boo]

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

that’s not good though. That’s like average. 

 

Did you watch the game?  Do you remember it?

 

Literally, a defensive play is what sealed it.  

Edited June 27, 2023 by Chicken Boo

[section122]

 

1 hour ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

I don't want to fire him (yet) and I couldn't care less that he's a defensive minded head coach. 

 

What I care about is that his "side" of the ball has been absolutely dominated in 3 straight playoff losses, that the entire team looked woefully unprepared for 2 of those games, and that 13 seconds was an all time coaching blunder. 

 

From what I can remember Dungy's defenses with the Colts played relatively well in their losses (other than the 41-0 loss to the Jets). I don't recall any coaching blunders like 13 seconds by him either, but it has been a while. 

 

The NFL is set up to be offensive minded. 

 

This year's loss to me was because the offense couldn't move the ball and mustered 10 points.  Do you realize that only 3 out of 13 games in the entire playoffs did the winning team score less than 27 points?  Sure the defense could have played better, you will get no argument from me.  However the loss to me falls on the shoulders of the offense.  Allen did not play well but he seems to get a pass.

 

It's hard for me to hold KC lighting the defense up against McD but won't argue the point that the defense has underperformed.  It's hard to speak on preparation but execution is certainly able to be questioned especially with the 13 seconds fiasco.

 

 

add on for Dungy in the playoffs:

Dungy had a 21-7 loss to the packers

Dungy had a 21-3 loss to the Eagles

Dungy had a 31-9 loss to the Eagles 

41-0 as you mentioned

 

He wasn't as squeaky clean as you remembered 🙂

 

[PromoTheRobot]

Joe Marino from Locked on Bills discusses the McDermott (and Beane) extensions but tackling every argument against it. Frankly he presents an clear argument as to why it's lunacy to replace Mc Dermott.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/buffalo-bills-are-staying-the-course-extend-sean/id1145479962?i=1000618269711

[vtnatefootball11]

This is a great comparison.  Another interesting parallel to watch is the WR situation.  I remember for a while the big complaint in Indy was that they didn't have a proper #2 to compliment Marvin Harrison. It wasn't until they got Reggie Wayne where they were able to get over the hump.  Wonder if it will be the same for the Bills. 

[BillsShredder83]

13 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Without Dungy's defense, Manning doesn't win a Lombardi in Indy.

Bob Sanders was so fun to watch

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

4 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Can you imagine wanting to fire the winningest coach in Bills history because of a fake narrative that he is not offensive minded?

Why is it a fake narrative?

 

Is McD familiar with Dorseys playbook ?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Did you watch the game?  Do you remember it?

 

Literally, a defensive play is what sealed it.  

lol. Do I remember a random playoff game from like 15 years ago?

 

of course not. I’m just responding to your statement that 13 points given up in a half is good. It’s far closer to average than good.

[Fleezoid]

Great! Now I have hope again. 

 

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Without Dungy's defense, Manning doesn't win a Lombardi in Indy.

 

Colts D was bottom half that season.

 

No HC has squandered more talent ever.  8 seasons, 4 one and dones.

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

15 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Without Dungy's defense, Manning doesn't win a Lombardi in Indy.

And an experienced OC

[Mikie2times]

2 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

I don't want to fire him (yet) and I couldn't care less that he's a defensive minded head coach. 

 

What I care about is that his "side" of the ball has been absolutely dominated in 3 straight playoff losses, that the entire team looked woefully unprepared for 2 of those games, and that 13 seconds was an all time coaching blunder. 

 

From what I can remember Dungy's defenses with the Colts played relatively well in their losses (other than the 41-0 loss to the Jets). I don't recall any coaching blunders like 13 seconds by him either, but it has been a while. 

We also scored 19, 24, and 10 in 3 of the 4 losses with the 24 being more of a fluff score in the AFC Championship vs the Chiefs.

 

So while the narrative has been it's the defenses fault, the reality is, outside of 2021, the offense hasn't exactly been lights out. Had we held the Bengals to 13 points the conversations around here would be much different. 

[TBBills Fan]

1 hour ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Bob Sanders was so fun to watch

 

 

when he wasnt injured....

[SoCal Deek]

19 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Sean McDermott and the Bills have some striking similarities to those Colts teams in the 2000's. Sean McDermott and Tony Dungy have some striking statistical similarities as well. What we are seeing amongst our fan base is actually very similar to what Colts fans experienced in those years. 

 

The NFL has had 145 coaches who at least had one year during the Super Bowl era and also coached at least 5 seasons

• Tony Dungy ranks 8th all time in regular season winning % in that sample, Sean McDermott ranks 12th
• Tony Dungy ranks 1st all time in % of years coaching that resulted in a playoff birth (85%), Sean McDermott ranks 2nd (83%)

 

No coach in NFL history (outside Sean McDermott) with 5 or more years in coaching, and led his team to a playoff birth 70% of the time has failed to win a Super Bowl. This also includes Tony Dungy. Other qualifying coaches are John Madden, Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren, Pete Carrol, and Bill Walsh. At even 60% or greater, 33 Super Bowls are represented with the only coaches to not win one being Bud Grant, Marty Schottenheimer, Dennis Green, and Mike Vrabel. 19 of 24 coaches that led teams to the playoffs 60% or more of the time won at least one.

 

In the above context Sean McDermott has not just been good, he has been historically good. Same as Dungy, and both were good in somewhat similar situations. Both  defensive minded, zone defenses at that, elite QB's, facing off against the combination of a juggernaut QB and coaching tandem. 

 

• Colts first season with Dungy they lost in the Wild Card 
• Colts second season with Dungy they lost in the AFC Championship
• Colts third season with Dungy they lost in the Divisional round
• Colts fourth season with Dungy they lost in the Wild Card
• Colts fifth season with Dungy they won the Super Bowl

 

As far as playoff losses, those Colts teams have been very similar to what we have seen from Buffalo. By no means was the path linear and I would argue that part of what allowed the Colts to finally breakthrough was just showing up year after year. The historical data on just showing up that often becomes pretty overwhelming. Dungy would go onto coach 2 more years. Ousted by the Chargers in the Wild Card round both times. 

 

In this time, Dungy was a polarizing figure. That Colts team, like this Bills team, was elite. Expectations were very high. Most Colts fans would argue they didn't achieve what they should have despite winning a Super Bowl. So when people support Sean McDermott at a high level, he deserves it. Further, when people are not supportive. That's understandable as well. Plenty of space exists for both opinions and neither disqualifies you as a fan. 

 

Sorry in advance for another McDermott related thread, I just think the history of the Colts team can teach us some things on why people feel the way that they do. It doesn't need to be so polarizing. We all want the same thing.  

 

Go Bills!   

 

 

 

 

 

Well said. I made this same comparison a few months ago, right after our exit from the playoffs. The Colts were the closest I could find to the Bills current situation and at the time I asked ‘what changed’ to finally get them over the hump? 

[Dablitzkrieg]

2 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Why is it a fake narrative?

 

Is McD familiar with Dorseys playbook ?

There is no data to prove the offensive minded coaches are better than defensive minded coaches. See Belichick

[Jukester]

6 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I guess I didn’t clarify. With the same team. Doesn’t do the bills any good if McDermott wins in year 10 with some other team.

 

Exactly. If you’re going to compare Dungy to McDermott, you have to remember Dungy started with the Bucs, built a great team, but couldnt get to the super bowl in 6 years. He then moved on to the Colts and it took him another 5 yrs  to win the super bowl. Lets hope Sean’s path isn’t similar. He’s built a great team but needs to get to the super bowl or eventually he’ll be moving on to another team.

[Chicken Boo]

3 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

lol. Do I remember a random playoff game from like 15 years ago?

 

A random playoff game, in which Manning and the Colts overcome a 21-3 deficit to beat Brady and the Pats in the AFC Championship?

 

It was a memorable one.

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Colts D was bottom half that season.

 

No HC has squandered more talent ever.  8 seasons, 4 one and dones.

 

 

 

Not for nothing, they were 2nd in the league against the pass.

[Mr. WEO]

49 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

A random playoff game, in which Manning and the Colts overcome a 21-3 deficit to beat Brady and the Pats in the AFC Championship?

 

It was a memorable one.

 

Not for nothing, they were 2nd in the league against the pass.

so what?  They were 23rd in points allowed.  That’s not good.  Offense was #2 in points scored.  It’s simply not true they got to SB because of that Defense.  The only 2 times Dungy had a top 5 scoring D the Colts lost the Divisional playoff game—one s as me done years.  When they won the DB, the mighty Dungy D was able to hold the great Rex Grossman to 17 points. 
 

 

[Chicken Boo]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

so what?  They were 23rd in points allowed.  That’s not good.  Offense was #2 in points scored.  It’s simply not true they got to SB because of that Defense.  The only 2 times Dungy had a top 5 scoring D the Colts lost the Divisional playoff game—one s as me done years.  When they won the DB, the mighty Dungy D was able to hold the great Rex Grossman to 17 points. 
 

 

 

Without the defense stepping up the way they did in the 2nd half and the zone on the final series, the Colts lose.  It's that simple.  

[LABILLBACKER]

13 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

I don't want to fire him (yet) and I couldn't care less that he's a defensive minded head coach. 

 

What I care about is that his "side" of the ball has been absolutely dominated in 3 straight playoff losses, that the entire team looked woefully unprepared for 2 of those games, and that 13 seconds was an all time coaching blunder. 

 

From what I can remember Dungy's defenses with the Colts played relatively well in their losses (other than the 41-0 loss to the Jets). I don't recall any coaching blunders like 13 seconds by him either, but it has been a while. 

It's one thing not being a good game tactician or strategist.  It's another not having a clue what to do with 13 seconds left. A huge ST blunder and 2 horrendous defensive calls.  I think that "yet" is coming sooner than people think.

[colin]

well, mcd took the big step up this offseason getting rid of our dead weight wooden DC.  he's dual hatting now, this is his shot to be remembered forever as a champion.

[PatsFanNH]

On 6/26/2023 at 11:40 PM, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

It appears McDermott is in a critical year. Even on borrowed time. Coaches don't win their first super bowl after year 5 when they have a Bonafide franchise QB. Allen and McDermott just completed year 5 together. Dungy hit the jack pot in year 5. McDermott did not. 

 

 

 

 

Lol the Colts got lucky that year! “Bug Eyes” Caldwell drops a perfect pass to ice the game for NE and they went and faced the (snicker) Bears in the SB.  I don’t think the Bills will need that kind of Horseshoe up there butt to win their first SB. 

[Mr. WEO]

14 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Without the defense stepping up the way they did in the 2nd half and the zone on the final series, the Colts lose.  It's that simple.  

stepping up? The Colts took a lead into the half and never trailed. On the final series the D made Grossman look like Joe Montana—going 5/5 in under 2 minutes.  He ran out of time.   Regardless, the Colts were up by 12. The game was out of reach for the Bears.

 

keep digging….

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

stepping up? The Colts took a lead into the half and never trailed. On the final series the D made Grossman look like Joe Montana—going 5/5 in under 2 minutes.  He ran out of time.   Regardless, the Colts were up by 12. The game was out of reach for the Bears.

 

keep digging….

It was Manning and company that made them so consistent and it was Manning and company in the playoffs that made them so inconsistent. I mean Manning was awful. Even in the Super Bowl year, 3 TD's and 7 INT's. The defense was ok, but it really struggled against the run most years. I agree, it was not the defense that did it. More or less, it was just getting there so often, which was based on Manning's regular season success. When you're in it every year you set yourself up that often luck ends up on your side. Drawing a very weak Bears team and in some ways in how they beat the Patriots was a product of that. I feel as if Buffalo will inevitably fall into the same situation. Which I think for many sounds like a white flag, but we are also trying to do this, like the Colts, with an active dynasty. Much like Maddens Raiders with the Steelers if we want to search for another example. Ideally, I hope we can overcome enough to be the team to beat but until that happens.....   

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

It was Manning and company that made them so consistent and it was Manning and company in the playoffs that made them so inconsistent. I mean Manning was awful. Even in the Super Bowl year, 3 TD's and 7 INT's. The defense was ok, but it really struggled against the run most years. I agree, it was not the defense that did it. More or less, it was just getting there so often, which was based on Manning's regular season success. When you're in it every year you set yourself up that often luck ends up on your side. Drawing a very weak Bears team and in some ways in how they beat the Patriots was a product of that. I feel as if Buffalo will inevitably fall into the same situation. Which I think for many sounds like a white flag, but we are also trying to do this, like the Colts, with an active dynasty. Much like Maddens Raiders with the Steelers if we want to search for another example. Ideally, I hope we can overcome enough to be the team to beat but until that happens.....   

 

Dungy was a big fan of sitting starters at the end of the season before the playoffs.  Bellichik rarely did that.  The results of the different philosophies speaks for itself.  Dungy struggled to motivate star studded regular season juggernaut teams for the playoffs.  He was a pushover

[Ethan in Cleveland]

On 6/27/2023 at 1:37 PM, vtnatefootball11 said:

This is a great comparison.  Another interesting parallel to watch is the WR situation.  I remember for a while the big complaint in Indy was that they didn't have a proper #2 to compliment Marvin Harrison. It wasn't until they got Reggie Wayne where they were able to get over the hump.  Wonder if it will be the same for the Bills. 

Huh?

Manning first season was 1998. Wayne's was 2001. He wasn't a big part of their offense until his fourth season.

They had Edgerrin James and Dallas Clark as legit weapons to go with Harrison. Add in Stokely who went over a 1000 yards one season, and its more than fair to say Manning/Colts had plenty of talent on offense. 

[Chicken Boo]

22 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

stepping up? The Colts took a lead into the half and never trailed. On the final series the D made Grossman look like Joe Montana—going 5/5 in under 2 minutes.  He ran out of time.   Regardless, the Colts were up by 12. The game was out of reach for the Bears.

 

keep digging….

 

The AFC Championship game, chief.  

[Mr. WEO]

On 6/26/2023 at 8:58 PM, Chicken Boo said:

 

Without Dungy's defense, Manning doesn't win a Lombardi in Indy.

 

5 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

The AFC Championship game, chief.  

topic is winning the SB chief.

 

if you now want to change your argument that a bottom half Dungy D stepped up on one series in the playoffs that year then go ahead I guess. 

[Chicken Boo]

33 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

topic is winning the SB chief.

 

if you now want to change your argument that a bottom half Dungy D stepped up on one series in the playoffs that year then go ahead I guess. 

 

That was my argument from the start, had you been paying attention.

 

How do they win the SB without finally getting past the juggernaut Pats?