Rookie Minicamp

[NewEra]

57 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It’s funny how much we hate an OC that finished with the number 2 offense in the NFL. Especially considering it was his first season as OC and we hated our RB’s, OL, and WR’s as well.

 

lol. Gotta love fans and media.

Stats.  Everyone loves to talk about the stats. Look at the stats for the first half of the season.  Look at the stats for the 2nd half. Looks at the stats in the playoffs.  Look at the stats for the Cinci game.  
 

you have eyes. I have eyes. My eyes tell me that our offense wasn’t nearly as good down the stretch.  Partly due to Josh’s injuries. No doubt.  
 

There’s a reason that the Bills were the NFL darlings last offseason and the SB bowl favorite.  It wasn’t because of our defense.  It was because everyone remembered Josh Allen unleashing in the playoffs last season. Our offense wasn’t that last year.  You know it.  I know it Everyone knows it.  
 

yet you got it. Talk about all the stats you want.  Our offense was less than what we had hoped for last season.  Partly due to Ken Dorsey 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

10 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Stats.  Everyone loves to talk about the stats. Look at the stats for the first half of the season.  Look at the stats for the 2nd half. Looks at the stats in the playoffs.  Look at the stats for the Cinci game.  
 

you have eyes. I have eyes. My eyes tell me that our offense wasn’t nearly as good down the stretch.  Partly due to Josh’s injuries. No doubt.  
 

There’s a reason that the Bills were the NFL darlings last offseason and the SB bowl favorite.  It wasn’t because of our defense.  It was because everyone remembered Josh Allen unleashing in the playoffs last season. Our offense wasn’t that last year.  You know it.  I know it Everyone knows it.  
 

yet you got it. Talk about all the stats you want.  Our offense was less than what we had hoped for last season.  Partly due to Ken Dorsey 

I look at redzone in the 2nd half. Went from 22nd week 10/11 to 10th by the end of the year.

 

 I also know our QB was injured. I also watched a worse offense in 2021 regular season. I also remember having to defend Daboll on this message board.

 

They definitely struggled but they also faced good defenses. Had a QB with torn UCL. No slot WRs. Gabe Davis fighting himself.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Sierra Foothills]

The biggest takeaway for me was that O'Cyrus Torrence got work at both guard positions.

 

Not that I'm surprised because all NFL teams value positional versatility and in fact require it due to the number of O-linemen who typically dress each week.

 

That said, I was wondering if the Bills would glue him to the right side just to enhance his proficiency at that spot... to accelerate his development into an opening day starter.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

The biggest takeaway for me was that O'Cyrus Torrence got work at both guard positions.

 

Not that I'm surprised because all NFL teams value positional versatility and in fact require it due to the number of O-linemen who typically dress each week.

 

That said, I was wondering if the Bills would glue him to the right side just to enhance his proficiency at that spot... to accelerate his development into an opening day starter.

 

 

Beane said he’ll get work at both positions but he said they do that with everyone.

[Sierra Foothills]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Beane said he’ll get work at both positions but he said they do that with everyone.

 

Yes, it'll really be a matter of degree.

 

I'm guessing he's not gonna get much work on the left side... less cross training than the other guards I think.

 

 

 

[DJB]

11 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

4 hours ago, eball said:

 

I think Dorsey deserves a pass for last season.  The OL was shite.  We still scored almost at will until Cinci.  I’m very excited to see this offense.

 

Well it’s on Josh or Ken from last year because we all knew the OL was crap why not play a quick game and get the ball out fast and early on slants, In, curls etc

 

Instead we did all verts which leads me to believe that it’s mostly Ken’s fault and not Josh

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by DJB

[Thurman#1]

20 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I thought he looked a little slow - he did mention that he was rusty

 

What impressed me is how smooth he seemed, like @Buffalo_Stampede said no wasted movement.  And the hands looke nice.

 

 

He seemed a little slow in game film too. I don't think he is slow, but the way he runs looks that way. And compared to the smaller WRs, the burners, he is slow. It'll be different with LBs. I agree he looks smooth. Again, looked that way in game film too, IMO.

 

Parrino said he was surprised that O'Cyrus didn't look as big as he'd thought he would. In that film, I'd agree. He didn't look much bigger than the coach. Was that Kromer?

 

OP, fun to see them at camp. Thanks for posting.

[Thurman#1]

50 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Stats.  Everyone loves to talk about the stats. Look at the stats for the first half of the season.  Look at the stats for the 2nd half. Looks at the stats in the playoffs.  Look at the stats for the Cinci game.  
 

you have eyes. I have eyes. My eyes tell me that our offense wasn’t nearly as good down the stretch.  Partly due to Josh’s injuries. No doubt.  
 

There’s a reason that the Bills were the NFL darlings last offseason and the SB bowl favorite.  It wasn’t because of our defense.  It was because everyone remembered Josh Allen unleashing in the playoffs last season. Our offense wasn’t that last year.  You know it.  I know it Everyone knows it.  
 

yet you got it. Talk about all the stats you want.  Our offense was less than what we had hoped for last season.  Partly due to Ken Dorsey 

 

 

IMO the defense was what wasn't nearly as good down the stretch. After Von went down, the whole team just didn't look nearly as good. Hyde also made a huge difference, as did the others, and Da'Quan missing the Bengals game was huge. The D was a huge part of our being offseason darlings and SB faves. So was the offense, don't get me wrong. But you can't leave out the D, or the D with Von healthy anyway.

 

And  yeah, "partly" due to Ken Dorsey is fair enough. But it looked to me like Allen was never right after the injury, and that that was a major part of the offense's problem late. 

 

But the offense late and the offense in the Bengals game were two entirely different things. Sure looked to me like not a single player out there had a good game on offense. And few on D, though that Milano play in the end zone stripping the ball out gave me hope for a minute or five. The coaches deserve their share of the blame as well, but the players did not play well.

 

 

23 minutes ago, DJB said:

Well it’s on Josh or Ken from last year because we all knew the OL was crap why not play a quick game and get the ball out fast and early on slants, In, curls etc

 

Instead we did all verts which leads me to believe that it’s mostly Ken’s fault and not Josh

 

 

 

 

We were told that it was precisely short passes that caused Allen pain from the injury. He said it was much easier on the injured arm to throw long, and that he wasn't as accurate short

 

So I agree that we did seem to avoid the short game, and it hurt us. But I don't think we can put that all on Dorsey.

[Sierra Foothills]

37 minutes ago, DJB said:

Well it’s on Josh or Dorsey from last year because we all knew the OL was crap why not play a quick game and get the ball out fast and early on slants, In, curls etc

 

Instead we did all verts which leads me to believe that it’s mostly Ken’s fault and not Josh

 

 

It's really hard to say who's at fault for Josh ignoring the layups and going for 3 pointers.

 

There's one theory that his elbow injury was more painful when throwing short.

 

There's another theory that Daboll was more persuasive than Dorsey in convincing Josh to take the layups.

 

At any rate, the Bills offense definitely needs to take the sure gains at a higher percentage than they did last year, IMO.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Sierra Foothills

[RenoNVBillsfan]

The USC PAC 12 Championship game is all you need to know about Kincaid’s route running ability, hands and dare I say toughness. He was uncoverable and everyone in the stadium knew he was getting the ball. I also feel he has high intelligence based on his interview responses. Don’t want to compare to Kelsey but, dang, it’s there. Bills have never had a TE prospect like this. 

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I look at redzone in the 2nd half. Went from 22nd week 10/11 to 10th by the end of the year.

 

 I also know our QB was injured. I also watched a worse offense in 2021 regular season. I also remember having to defend Daboll on this message board.

 

They definitely struggled but they also faced good defenses. Had a QB with torn UCL. No slot WRs. Gabe Davis fighting himself.

And an OC that ran an offense with no identity.  
 

Why’d we draft a James Cook? Why’d we trade for Hines?  Why’d we pay Dawson Knox 13M a year?   Dorsey failed to take anything off of Josh's plate. He was supposed to alleviate some of the pressure.  Instead, we saw him take on more of the load that ever.  With a partially torn UCL.  

Dorsey is the OC of an established all time QB/WR combos. Of course they’re going to score points during the regular season.  They did that without an identity other than- Josh doing everything.  
 

That said- I’m not saying he’s bad, I’m just not going to give him another year if our offense resembles what we saw last year.  Good….. but it should be amazing.  
 

now he has Kincaid.  My #1 draft crush.  A do it all Swiss Army knife at his disposal. Hopefully he uses him properly

[purple haze]

22 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I thought he looked a little slow - he did mention that he was rusty

 

What impressed me is how smooth he seemed, like @Buffalo_Stampede said no wasted movement.  And the hands looke nice.

He can move.  I hope teams put a LB on him.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

IMO the defense was what wasn't nearly as good down the stretch. After Von went down, the whole team just didn't look nearly as good. Hyde also made a huge difference, as did the others, and Da'Quan missing the Bengals game was huge. The D was a huge part of our being offseason darlings and SB faves. So was the offense, don't get me wrong. But you can't leave out the D, or the D with Von healthy anyway.

 

And  yeah, "partly" due to Ken Dorsey is fair enough. But it looked to me like Allen was never right after the injury, and that that was a major part of the offense's problem late. 

 

But the offense late and the offense in the Bengals game were two entirely different things. Sure looked to me like not a single player out there had a good game on offense. And few on D, though that Milano play in the end zone stripping the ball out gave me hope for a minute or five. The coaches deserve their share of the blame as well, but the players did not play well.

 

 

 

 

We were told that it was precisely short passes that caused Allen pain from the injury. He said it was much easier on the injured arm to throw long, and that he wasn't as accurate short

 

So I agree that we did seem to avoid the short game, and it hurt us. But I don't think we can put that all on Dorsey.

I agree-  the D was an issue.  Mainly due to injuries. The O wasn’t missing a handful of their best players. 
 

Allen also didn’t look right before the injury. He was off the entire 2nd half of the packers game and the entire Jets game (he got hurt late in that game).   
 

I’m definitely not putting everything on Dorsey…. I just don’t trust him yet.  I’m not sold.  I wasn’t happy with the way he used some of our players- Knox and Cook to name 2.  I was hoping he’d get cook more involved in the pass game.  That’s why we drafted him.  To be fair, Cook failed as a receiver early on, but I thought that would encourage Dorsey to get him on track.  Knox….. he was criminally underutilized imo.  He’s a dam good we’ll rounded TE that’s relegated to being a red zone threat who’s forgotten the other 80 yards of the field while he blocks.  Which is partly on Beane for putting Spencer brown out there as our only RT.  

[BobbyC81]

21 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I’m hesitant to rave about his hands because we had a WR that had the best hands in college football. His name was Josh Reed. He couldn’t catch a cold in the NFL.

We also had a WR who led the nation in receptions named Zay Jones.

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

And an OC that ran an offense with no identity.  
 

Why’d we draft a James Cook? Why’d we trade for Hines?  Why’d we pay Dawson Knox 13M a year?   Dorsey failed to take anything off of Josh's plate. He was supposed to alleviate some of the pressure.  Instead, we saw him take on more of the load that ever.  With a partially torn UCL.  

Dorsey is the OC of an established all time QB/WR combos. Of course they’re going to score points during the regular season.  They did that without an identity other than- Josh doing everything.  
 

That said- I’m not saying he’s bad, I’m just not going to give him another year if our offense resembles what we saw last year.  Good….. but it should be amazing.  
 

now he has Kincaid.  My #1 draft crush.  A do it all Swiss Army knife at his disposal. Hopefully he uses him properly

 

As for the OC criticism, couple ways to dice it: consensus among analysts/commentators seems to be that in the 2nd half of the season there WERE often shorter/quicker/underneath routes available to Allen on many of his unsuccessful deeper throws; the essential question then becomes unanswerable for us fans: was it play design (predictable coaching) or QB tendency (player processing regression) that dictated all those (mostly unsuccessful) deep shots against aggressive man-pressure looks (oftentimes on 3rd and short/medium)? If Knox and Hynes and Cook and whoever else were actually open for chain-moving gains, was it Josh or Dorsey who were so easily manipulated into instead tossing up lower percentage throws to single-covered WRs down the field? 

[78thealltimegreat]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

Stats.  Everyone loves to talk about the stats. Look at the stats for the first half of the season.  Look at the stats for the 2nd half. Looks at the stats in the playoffs.  Look at the stats for the Cinci game.  
 

you have eyes. I have eyes. My eyes tell me that our offense wasn’t nearly as good down the stretch.  Partly due to Josh’s injuries. No doubt.  
 

There’s a reason that the Bills were the NFL darlings last offseason and the SB bowl favorite.  It wasn’t because of our defense.  It was because everyone remembered Josh Allen unleashing in the playoffs last season. Our offense wasn’t that last year.  You know it.  I know it Everyone knows it.  
 

yet you got it. Talk about all the stats you want.  Our offense was less than what we had hoped for last season.  Partly due to Ken Dorsey 

Dorsey’s problem was he was just too predictable. His offense was very very basic and essentially one dimensional. He had a statistically good offense but when he ran into teams with the defensive personnel to match the Bills offense he has literally no answers other than here Josh go run around and make a play. Hopefully with his new pieces and an entire off season he can put together a more complex offense. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[Chandler#81]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:46 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I’m hesitant to rave about his hands because we had a WR that had the best hands in college football. His name was Josh Reed. He couldn’t catch a cold in the NFL.

PFF discusses our Draft picks, grades the Draft as an A

 

[NewEra]

6 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

As for the OC criticism, couple ways to dice it: consensus among analysts/commentators seems to be that in the 2nd half of the season there WERE often shorter/quicker/underneath routes available to Allen on many of his unsuccessful deeper throws; the essential question then becomes unanswerable for us fans: was it play design (predictable coaching) or QB tendency (player processing regression) that dictated all those (mostly unsuccessful) deep shots against aggressive man-pressure looks (oftentimes on 3rd and short/medium)? If Knox and Hynes and Cook and whoever else were actually open for chain-moving gains, was it Josh or Dorsey who were so easily manipulated into instead tossing up lower percentage throws to single-covered WRs down the field? 

Great point.  

i think it was a bit of both and probably more Josh wanting the big play than Dorsey.  Ultimately, it’s Dorsey’s offense and it’s his responsibility to make sure that his QB runs what he likes.  X’s and O’s are the primary concern of the coordinators but we all know there’s more to that job than just calling plays.  
 

like you said, he was too predictable and one dimensional.  I don’t think Josh would be in position to take the lower percentage deep ball nearly as much as he was, if our offensive system was more efficient.  Partly on Josh.  Partly on Dorsey.  

[Clyde Smith]

12 hours ago, ganesh said:

Signed a 3yr/24M with 14M guaranteed with the Jacksonville Jaguars last year.

He's still garbage 🗑 

[Chicken Boo]

On 5/13/2023 at 8:44 AM, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Rookie camp is basically just an eyeball test for fans and I’ll say this: Big Cy doesn’t look like a flabby lineman

 

I think he absolutely looks flabby. 

[Sierra Foothills]

19 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I think he absolutely looks flabby. 

 

That's because you're a chicken.

 

[dayman]

I love the reps where they work against the unpadded coaches. Laziest waste of time possible. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

1 hour ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I think he absolutely looks flabby. 

Yea I saw other pics haha He’s not in awful shape though. Most OL have a belly. 

[ColoradoBills]

16 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It’s funny how much we hate an OC that finished with the number 2 offense in the NFL. Especially considering it was his first season as OC and we hated our RB’s, OL, and WR’s as well.

 

lol. Gotta love fans and media.

 

I've been a bit critical of Dorsey's first season.  He does get a pass for being a rookie at it.  So, I guess you can laugh at me too.

However, I'm not the one comparing Josh Reed and Dalton because of the media's opinion of his hands.  So for future reference, are you

claiming the Kincaid will drop a lot of balls?

 

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Great point.  

i think it was a bit of both and probably more Josh wanting the big play than Dorsey.  Ultimately, it’s Dorsey’s offense and it’s his responsibility to make sure that his QB runs what he likes.  X’s and O’s are the primary concern of the coordinators but we all know there’s more to that job than just calling plays.  
 

like you said, he was too predictable and one dimensional.  I don’t think Josh would be in position to take the lower percentage deep ball nearly as much as he was, if our offensive system was more efficient.  Partly on Josh.  Partly on Dorsey.  

 

I've been hesitant to post this but after your comments I will.  Dorsey has to prove to me this year that he is the Buffalo Bills Offensive

Coordinator and not Josh Allen's play caller.  Josh is a great QB, but he does need a coach to tell him what he is not doing right.

IMO.

 

1 hour ago, dayman said:

I love the reps where they work against the unpadded coaches. Laziest waste of time possible. 

 

It's "rookie minicamp".  What you are seeing are coaches "teaching".

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I've been a bit critical of Dorsey's first season.  He does get a pass for being a rookie at it.  So, I guess you can laugh at me too.

However, I'm not the one comparing Josh Reed and Dalton because of the media's opinion of his hands.  So for future reference, are you

claiming the Kincaid will drop a lot of balls?

 

 

I've been hesitant to post this but after your comments I will.  Dorsey has to prove to me this year that he is the Buffalo Bills Offensive

Coordinator and not Josh Allen's play caller.  Josh is a great QB, but he does need a coach to tell him what he is not doing right.

IMO.

 

 

It's "rookie minicamp".  What you are seeing are coaches "teaching".

Lol that’s a stretch. No, I don’t think Kincaid will drop a lot of balls or be like Josh Reed. My goodness. 😂

 

The point was pretty simple. What you did in college doesn’t mean anything. All it does is get you drafted.

 

As for Dorsey, how does he prove to you? Stats don’t matter so is it just the end result? I don’t mean TDs because we scored them, but I mean playoff success?

Edited May 14, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[starrymessenger]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:52 AM, The Wiz said:

He was tripping on something while he was in buffalo.

 

Apparently the Jacksonville meth is better for your hand-eye coordination.

I'm not sure that catching shallow screens outside or around the hash marks  and running with it are the best test of a WR's hands. Zay had a healthy dose of that in college. Sammy Watkins too if I remember correctly.

Edited May 14, 2023 by starrymessenger

[GreggTX]

On 5/13/2023 at 7:23 AM, Clyde Smith said:

Don't forget we had a 2nd rounder with the best hands in college name Zay Jones, how did that turn out.

I don't remember anyone ever saying that about Zay. And anyway, he's become an OK receiver since he left Buffalo.

 

I'm more excited about Torrence anyway since the OL was easily the weakest unit on the team last year. I so hope Spencer Brown can be just average. Even that would be a huge improvement.

Edited May 14, 2023 by GreggTX

[ColoradoBills]

14 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Lol that’s a stretch. No, I don’t think Kincaid will drop a lot of balls or be like Josh Reed. My goodness. 😂

 

The point was pretty simple. What you did in college doesn’t mean anything. All it does is get you drafted.

 

As for Dorsey, how does he prove to you? Stats don’t matter so is it just the end result? I don’t mean TDs because we scored them, but I mean playoff success?

 

I just don't see the point of comparing Kincaid to Reed.  I'll admit I get a little tired of some of the sarcasm on the board.

So, let's just forget about it.

 

As for Dorsey, I've watched enough football to know what an elite OC can do.  Dorsey IMO is nowhere near that.  I'll add "yet" to that sentence.

He inherited a great QB.  You don't think that last season was his ceiling, do you?  If you don't, then we agree he can do a lot more with the team.

 

I've often used this analogy about OCs.  Good ones know how to set up a D the same way a boxer sets up his punches and uses his opponents

strengths against him.  In Dorsey's defense, I've also said that an experienced OC (I've used Andy Reid in this) has faced more 3rd and longs

in his career than Ken has in total plays called.  He IMO still has a lot to learn.  I hope he learns to excels at it.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I just don't see the point of comparing Kincaid to Reed.  I'll admit I get a little tired of some of the sarcasm on the board.

So, let's just forget about it.

 

As for Dorsey, I've watched enough football to know what an elite OC can do.  Dorsey IMO is nowhere near that.  I'll add "yet" to that sentence.

He inherited a great QB.  You don't think that last season was his ceiling, do you?  If you don't, then we agree he can do a lot more with the team.

 

I've often used this analogy about OCs.  Good ones know how to set up a D the same way a boxer sets up his punches and uses his opponents

strengths against him.  In Dorsey's defense, I've also said that an experienced OC (I've used Andy Reid in this) has faced more 3rd and longs

in his career than Ken has in total plays called.  He IMO still has a lot to learn.  I hope he learns to excels at it.

There is no comparison to Reed made at all! They aren’t even remotely close as prospects other than they both had great hands in college.

 

The offense had its struggles between the 20’s as the season went on. I tend to blame the lack of good route runners on the roster. But you’ve watched enough football and probably already knew that.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[John from Riverside]

On 5/14/2023 at 12:09 PM, GreggTX said:

I don't remember anyone ever saying that about Zay. And anyway, he's become an OK receiver since he left Buffalo.

 

I'm more excited about Torrence anyway since the OL was easily the weakest unit on the team last year. I so hope Spencer Brown can be just average. Even that would be a huge improvement.

I heard it
That’s why I was just mouth agape as I watched Zay Jones fumble everything

[Doc]

Zay obviously had some mental issues while in Buffalo.  That hotel incident was out there.

[RoyBatty is alive]

On 5/14/2023 at 10:50 AM, dayman said:

I love the reps where they work against the unpadded coaches. Laziest waste of time possible. 

Yeah how he use their arms and footwork for these rookies is a total waste of time, do I have the right?