McDermott "officially" calling D plays

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 

 Former coordinators calling plays as a HC has been going on forever. That's 100% a non factor. Who is he hiring that's proven to be a better DC than he was in Carolina? 

 

 

 

It works on with Offense sometimes, sure. Not historically with Defense.

 

To the bold, THAT is exactly one of the things he is being paid millions of dollars as a HC to figure out.

 

Not having a replacement/improvement ready is mismanagement.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It works on with Offense sometimes, sure. Not historically with Defense.

 

To the bold, THAT is exactly one of the things he is being paid millions of dollars as a HC to figure out.

 

Not having a replacement/improvement ready is mismanagement.

 

 Unless it was his plan all along to take over the playing once Frazier left. Who says Frazier wasn't forced out so McDermott could take over. If it's reached this point and my butt is on the line and I'm more than qualified to do so, I'm calling the plays.

 

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 Unless it was his plan all along to take over the playing once Frazier left. Who says Frazier wasn't forced out so McDermott could take over. If it's reached this point and my butt is on the line and I'm more than qualified to do so, I'm calling the plays.

 

 

 

 

I've said all over this thread that I can kinda appreciate it from that accountability stand point.
 

I HATE that it has had to come to that point tho.

 

I also think that being the plan all along is a BAD PLAN. Even if you disagree with that opinion. Your red X's have no power here!

[Gugny]

45 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Focus on head coaching before you start trying to take DC responsibilities on as well

 

This is not a good idea imo

 

I agree wholeheartedly.  After the 13 seconds debacle, adding anything onto McDermott's plate isn't going to be a good idea.

[BarleyNY]

12 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Mentioning the Browns as any example only helps my case!

Sure. It’s easy to rip on the Browns, but offensive play calling hasn’t been their issue since Stefanski was hired. He’s actually done well all things considered. And then there’s the fact that both SB teams had HCs that call plays on one side of the ball. So….

[Coach Tuesday]

My question is does this put more pressure on Dorsey in terms of game management?  

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I've said all over this thread that I can kinda appreciate it from that accountability stand point.
 

I HATE that it has had to come to that point tho.

 

I also think that being the plan all along is a BAD PLAN. Even if you disagree with that opinion. Your red X's have no power here!

 

 You HATE it, I LOVE it. We'll see who's right come playoff time.

 

 

[MasterStrategist]

14 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Thank you for digging that up. Yeah, not a great list when it comes to D coaches. Belichick is an entire different breed, and McD is no BB.

 

I do think it could change too. Hence, why I pointed out McDs coach-speak of "the current plan". That could literally change tomorrow.

 

Thanks again, good stuff.

 

That's the problem.

 

As leader of my team at work, I need to be the ultimate decision maker and see the bigger picture, but I absolutely hire people smarter than me in their specific field and often tell them "If it ends up with ME pressing the keys, then we've gone horribly wrong".

 

Well, McD is pressing keys.

Your analogy is well taken, but not directly comparable.

 

It'd be more like your team is pressing the keys still, but you are going into the meeting and describing what they did.  

 

In this case, nobody knows how much this detracts from his day-to-day VS just on gameday itself.  McDermott likely wants the control, for various reasons, on gameday.  But he could be having his staff handling more of the preparation/key pressing as you say.

 

Without knowing the exact ins and outs of how this will work, its WAY too early to say either way.

 

All we know is Coach had been one heck of a DC before.  As many mentioned, different HCs have balanced coordinating roles too and been successful (doesn't matter if it's OC or DC).

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

Sure. It’s easy to rip on the Browns, but offensive play calling hasn’t been their issue since Stefanski was hired. He’s actually done well all things considered. And then there’s the fact that both SB teams had HCs that call plays on one side of the ball. So….

 

Offense, offense, offense.

 

Yes, it's good to have an Offensive genius on your team, and Teams will promote the top innovative OCs to HC in order to have that talent in house.

 

But we're talking soft-ass Tampa 2 Defense for our HC.

 

Forgive me for being less than thrilled with the idea.

[NewEra]

47 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Focus on head coaching before you start trying to take DC responsibilities on as well

 

This is not a good idea imo

He’s a defensive HC and he wants his team to play HIS defense.  There has never been any doubt that McD wants HIS defense being run and Frazier was a perfect guy to call the D because he’s had so much experience in it (and exp coaching with McD).  
 

Knowing that, should he bring someone in, teach them everything he wants and hope he can comprehend, learn and retain everything by opening day so he can call plays for a Super Bowl contender?  Should he have promote Washington?  The guy that has been in charge of developing the DL that we invest everything into…..and has failed. 
 

who do you think McDermott should’ve hired and have call plays knowing all of this?

 

He can hire others to help him with head coaching duties…..but no one can call his defense like he can.   

 

 

[MasterStrategist]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Offense, offense, offense.

 

Yes, it's good to have an Offensive genius on your team, and Teams will promote the top innovative OCs to HC in order to have that talent in house.

 

But we're talking soft-ass Tampa 2 Defense for our HC.

 

Forgive me for being less than thrilled with the idea.

Mcdermott didn't run a soft ass Tampa 2, historically. You are either generalizing OR haven't seen what he did in past roles.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Offense, offense, offense.

 

Yes, it's good to have an Offensive genius on your team, and Teams will promote the top innovative OCs to HC in order to have that talent in house.

 

But we're talking soft-ass Tampa 2 Defense for our HC.

 

Forgive me for being less than thrilled with the idea.

 

 He didn't run a soft Tampa 2 defense in Carolina, why would he start now? It’s literally the biggest reason why I'm excited that he's taking over. We will see a far more aggressive approach. Your outrage should be saved for our OC. 

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

He’s a defensive HC and he wants his team to play HIS defense.  There has never been any doubt that McD wants HIS defense being run and Frazier was a perfect guy to call the D because he’s had so much experience in it (and exp coaching with McD).  
 

Knowing that, should he bring someone in, teach them everything he wants and hope he can comprehend, learn and retain everything by opening day so he can call plays for a Super Bowl contender?  Should he have promote Washington?  The guy that has been in charge of developing the DL that we invest everything into…..and has failed. 
 

who do you think McDermott should’ve hired and have call plays knowing all of this?

 

He can hire others to help him with head coaching duties…..but no one can call his defense like he can.   

 

 

So Frazier, running McDermott's defense and being the perfect guy to call plays ultimately failed, yes?

 

Washington in charge of DL has failed in your estimation.

 

Now McDermott, despite being the architect of this entire operation, is suddenly putting his foot down and going to call the right plays that the guys before weren't?

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Mcdermott didn't run a soft ass Tampa 2, historically. You are either generalizing OR haven't seen what he did in past roles.

 

The Tampa 2 is intrinsically one of the softest D schemes out there.

 

It did ok in 2015 when Cam was lighting it up on the way to an MVP season and they could pin their ears back after taking early leads.

 

Hoping for the same from Josh/Dorsey this year to help out.

 

2 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 He didn't run a soft Tampa 2 defense in Carolina, why would he start now? It’s literally the biggest reason why I'm excited that he's taking over. We will see a far more aggressive approach. Your outrage should be saved for our OC. 

 

 

 

What do you think he ran in Carolina when he had Keuchly in the same role as Edmunds?

 

We run a Cover 2/Tampa 2.

 

This was "MCD's Defense" he brought from Carolina and enlisted Frazier to call as his proxy. What else could he have ran in Carolina?

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[billieve420]

This is what I wanted and I am good with this. Time to put the onus of his defense on McDermott. I never expected them to go outside of the organization so will see if defense continues to under perform in key situations like it has in the past. Super Bowl or bust with this team so they needed to explore all avenues while looking to avoid wasting prime Allen years.

[BarleyNY]

12 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Offense, offense, offense.

 

Yes, it's good to have an Offensive genius on your team, and Teams will promote the top innovative OCs to HC in order to have that talent in house.

 

But we're talking soft-ass Tampa 2 Defense for our HC.

 

Forgive me for being less than thrilled with the idea.

 

The question at hand was whether having a HC call plays is generally a problem. It’s obviously not.

 

Whether it matters whether Frazier, McDermott or someone else calls plays for McDermott’s defense is another issue entirely. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by BarleyNY

[Lagoon Blues]

13 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Offense, offense, offense.

 

Yes, it's good to have an Offensive genius on your team, and Teams will promote the top innovative OCs to HC in order to have that talent in house.

 

But we're talking soft-ass Tampa 2 Defense for our HC.

 

Forgive me for being less than thrilled with the idea.

You surely have the right to not be thrilled by this and quite a few reason to believe it wont work.  But, I am looking at it like quite a few on here appear to be that it's all on him now for sure.  Do what you are best at and deligate others who may be better at what you didnt excel at.  Thats the rub the way I see it.   This is my hope.  You may be correct as well.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Lagoon Blues

[sullim4]

I think this will help the defense, but it worries me as McD is not known as a strong in-game head coach.  Particularly on things like challenges and using timeouts.

 

I hope there is someone in his ear that he can trust that will alert him to stuff like this.

[BillMafia716ix]

Not a fan of this move honestly. So now were giving Ken Dorsey even more free rein over the offense? I don’t like it..

[Kmart128]

I kinda figured he would but i atleast hope he hires a "DC" just to help get prepared and to be his eyes in the sky

[MasterStrategist]

10 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The Tampa 2 is intrinsically one of the softest D schemes out there.

 

It did ok in 2015 when Cam was lighting it up on the way to an MVP season and they could pin their ears back after taking early leads.

 

Hoping for the same from Josh/Dorsey this year to help out.

 

 

What do you think he ran in Carolina when he had Keuchly in the same role as Edmunds?

This is being lazy, call out McDermott for something he hasn't been then put on others to prove you wrong. 

 

So here goes:

1. McDermott has always been more multiple with his defense.  Primarily cover 3, 4, 6 looks (with some cover 2).  He has also used Double A gap pressure looks to disguise pass rush and coverage.  He's also used alot more 4-3 base looks, along with over/under fronts.  Something we saw in 2017, when he 1st started with us.

 

2. Frazier is Mr Tampa 2.  Which is what alot of posters said for long time.

 

Here is just 1 article: https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/02/06/growing-pains-breaking-down-the-bills-transition-to-sean-mcdermotts-4-3-defense/

 

You can go find others, or spend the time looking up defensive formation/coverage stats.

 

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So Frazier, running McDermott's defense and being the perfect guy to call plays ultimately failed, yes?

 

Washington in charge of DL has failed in your estimation.

 

Now McDermott, despite being the architect of this entire operation, is suddenly putting his foot down and going to call the right plays that the guys before weren't?

 

 

So you didn’t answer anything I asked. 
 

I’ll answer yours though-  

 

yes-  I think Frazier was the perfect guy to run his defense.  He did a very job, until he didn’t.  Which was every year in the playoff losses. They tried it, it didn’t work.  It may not have worked for one or several reasons.  
Frazier was given the boot and McD is taking over full control of the D.  His D run by him.  Not his D run by Frazier.  
 

yes, from the couch, I think Washington has failed.  Rousseau looks like the only keeper along the DL- top 10 pick Ed, average.  2nd rd AJ, fail.  2nd rd Boogie, fail.  Part of his job is to develop our draft picks.  
 

yes-  McD is finally putting his foot down and he thinks he’s going to call the right plays. 

[Virgil]

Good

[Just in Atlanta]

Maybe he can play middle linebacker too

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

IMO, not great. It may be an improvement over Frazier, but I'm not a fan of Head Coaches calling plays. Seems like the boss is wasting time doing other peoples' jobs.

 

I think I agree. Leslie took way too much heat for me but McD is one of the best defensive minds in football and was an excellent play caller as a DC. But I'm not a fan of Head Coaches calling plays. If you are Andy Reid, fine. Almost anyone else.... meh. 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

This is being lazy, call out McDermott for something he hasn't been then put on others to prove you wrong. 

 

So here goes:

1. McDermott has always been more multiple with his defense.  Primarily cover 3, 4, 6 looks (with some cover 2).  He has also used Double A gap pressure looks to disguise pass rush and coverage.  He's also used alot more 4-3 base looks, along with over/under fronts.  Something we saw in 2017, when he 1st started with us.

 

2. Frazier is Mr Tampa 2.  Which is what alot of posters said for long time.

 

Here is just 1 article: https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/02/06/growing-pains-breaking-down-the-bills-transition-to-sean-mcdermotts-4-3-defense/

 

You can go find others, or spend the time looking up defensive formation/coverage stats.

 

 

Of course we, and every team, change coverage between 2, 3, 4, etc. No one ever argued we run the same D every play. But it is absolutely our base and what we build and draft around. Guys who can play in a 4-3 Cover 2 Zone. A pass-defending MLB, with 2 deep Safeties.

 

I do agree that we will see vastly different playcalls by McD than Frazier, but they will be out of the same playbook, with the same base scheme of the Cover 2.

 

I would love to see McD and the Bills get away from that. And that is why I would rather he just bring in a DC with a new scheme and let him focus on that.

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

So you didn’t answer anything I asked. 
 

I’ll answer yours though-  

 

yes-  I think Frazier was the perfect guy to run his defense.  He did a very job, until he didn’t.  Which was every year in the playoff losses. They tried it, it didn’t work.  It may not have worked for one or several reasons.  
Frazier was given the boot and McD is taking over full control of the D.  His D run by him.  Not his D run by Frazier.  
 

yes, from the couch, I think Washington has failed.  Rousseau looks like the only keeper along the DL- top 10 pick Ed, average.  2nd rd AJ, fail.  2nd rd Boogie, fail.  Part of his job is to develop our draft picks.  
 

yes-  McD is finally putting his foot down and he thinks he’s going to call the right plays. 

You appear to have a lot more confidence in McDermott than I do, yet you're willing to admit that he left a guy who was calling his defense inadequately at the job for 5 years? That's a tough sell imo.

[BillsPride12]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

If McDermott was planning on running the same type of D this year, he would have given the play calling to one of his minions.

 

I'm really thinking he is installing a new D and will hand it over to someone else next year.

 

If my speculation is correct, I can't see why anyone would not like this plan.

I've had similar thoughts and have also thought this might be a bigger reason why they were willing to move on from Tremaine Edmunds 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

15 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The Tampa 2 is intrinsically one of the softest D schemes out there.

 

It did ok in 2015 when Cam was lighting it up on the way to an MVP season and they could pin their ears back after taking early leads.

 

Hoping for the same from Josh/Dorsey this year to help out.

 

 

What do you think he ran in Carolina when he had Keuchly in the same role as Edmunds?

 

We run a Cover 2/Tampa 2.

 

This was "MCD's Defense" he brought from Carolina and enlisted Frazier to call as his proxy. What else could he have ran in Carolina?

 

 

 His base defense was actually cover 3. He did run some cover 2, cover 4 & covet 6 with a little cover 1 mixed in. 4-3 base defense with under front and mixes in over. Also might see some wide 9 from him. 

 

 The thing he did was switch up the defense week to week, both in Philly and Carolina. I can't remember the article I read, but I believe it was a game against Peyton Manning he used 9 different defenses during the game to confuse him.

 

 

 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

If he messes it up, he'll get fired.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, BillsPride12 said:

I've had similar thoughts and have also thought this might be a bigger reason why they were willing to move on from Tremaine Edmunds 

So this whole time he actually wanted to be running a different defense? He should have said something😂😂😂we'd be swimming in SB trophies 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 His base defense was actually cover 3. He did run some cover 2, cover 4 & covet 6 with a little cover 1 mixed in. 4-3 base defense with under front and mixes in over. Also might see some wide 9 from him. 

 

Then this makes the Frazier hiring and the entire last 5 years absolutely confusing and a seemingly huge management misalignment.

 

3 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 The thing he did was switch up the defense week to week, both in Philly and Carolina. I can't remember the article I read, but I believe it was a game against Peyton Manning he used 9 different defenses during the game to confuse him.

 

Crazy he couldnt influence Frazier to do that even a little bit then.

 

I truly hope we see that.

 

Although I do wonder how much of that came due to pressure from Reid being used to Jim Johnson, and the aggressive D background of Ron Rivera. Even stranger that he wouldnt carry that over to Frazier.

 

I guess we'll see! I'm here for it either way.

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, BillsPride12 said:

I've had similar thoughts and have also thought this might be a bigger reason why they were willing to move on from Tremaine Edmunds 

 

No one can honestly say the Edmunds did not develop as much as was expected.  For the last 2 years there was actually comments made about

his needing to make more "impact" plays.  He just couldn't produce enough.  McDermott wants that from that position.

It's part of the more aggressive D he desires.

 

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So this whole time he actually wanted to be running a different defense? He should have said something😂😂😂we'd be swimming in SB trophies 

 

 

First off you responded to @BillsPride12who was responding to me.  I did not say that at all, and you missed the whole point of the posts.

 

[Einstein's Dog]

14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

You appear to have a lot more confidence in McDermott than I do, yet you're willing to admit that he left a guy who was calling his defense inadequately at the job for 5 years? That's a tough sell imo.

The Defense has not been inadequate for 5 years.  It was a top 5 defense. 

 

It has been the small sample size of playoff losses that did Frazier in.  That and a passive look that is unappealing to fans.

 

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

You appear to have a lot more confidence in McDermott than I do, yet you're willing to admit that he left a guy who was calling his defense inadequately at the job for 5 years? That's a tough sell imo.

that’s a tough sell to who?  Most Bills fans I know are in favor of letting Frazier go and McD taking over. 

 

they tried.  They came close.  They played good d for the most part over 6 years…. Then they got out coached when it mattered most in the playoffs.  
 

I thought they should’ve fired Frazier after 13 seconds but I’m glad that he wasn’t retained after this year.  
 

So, I’ll ask again.  Who do you think McD should’ve hired to call his defense?  Would you rather Holcomb or Washington be the DC and call plays?  
 

Or do you think we should’ve fired him?  Because bringing in a DC that runs a different defense wasn’t an option.  
 

If you think he should’ve been fired, I don’t have any problem with your opinion on this.  I understand why people would want McD fired.  
 

If you think he should’ve hired a DC to run his defense, I have a major problem with this.  Frazier couldn’t do it with years of experience under his belt….Holcomb/Washington have shown me nothing to think they could win us a SB calling plays on d for the first time in their careers.  I’ve seen what a 1st year play caller can do on a contender.  No more.  

 

if you think that he should’ve hired a Dc that runs a different defense, you are clueless (and I know you’re not clueless) as to who McD is.  That was never an option.  
 

 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

No one can honestly say the Edmunds did not develop as much as was expected.  For the last 2 years there was actually comments made about

his needing to make more "impact" plays.  He just couldn't produce enough.  McDermott wants that from that position.

It's part of the more aggressive D he desires.

 

 

First off you responded to @BillsPride12who was responding to me.  I did not say that at all, and you missed the whole point of the posts.

 

You said it right here in the above lol

 

Somehow McDermott allowed Frazier to run a defense he knew to be inadequate for 5 years. I'm not buying that sorry

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Still not a general fan of the philosophy even if you can show one example of it working.

 

I also dont think McD is the "Andy Reid of Defense".

 

Also, you may see that change with Nagy back as OC this year.

 

I'd also add Reid has been HCing for over 20 years. He hasnt always called plays. He has enough experience to do both with one hand tied behind his back.

 

McD is going on year 6 and has shown he still has some skills to develop.

 

 

 

 

Andy Reid wasn’t all that and a bag of chips in year six, 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

that’s a tough sell to who?  Most Bills fans I know are in favor of letting Frazier go and McD taking over. 

 

they tried.  They came close.  They played good d for the most part over 6 years…. Then they got out coached when it mattered most in the playoffs.  
 

I thought they should’ve fired Frazier after 13 seconds but I’m glad that he wasn’t retained after this year.  
 

So, I’ll ask again.  Who do you think McD should’ve hired to call his defense?  Would you rather Holcomb or Washington be the DC and call plays?  
 

Or do you think we should’ve fired him?  Because bringing in a DC that runs a different defense wasn’t an option.  
 

If you think he should’ve been fired, I don’t have any problem with your opinion on this.  I understand why people would want McD fired.  
 

If you think he should’ve hired a DC to run his defense, I have a major problem with this.  Frazier couldn’t do it with years of experience under his belt….Holcomb/Washington have shown me nothing to think they could win us a SB calling plays on d for the first time in their careers.  I’ve seen what a 1st year play caller can do on a contender.  No more.  

 

if you think that he should’ve hired a Dc that runs a different defense, you are clueless (and I know you’re not clueless) as to who McD is.  That was never an option.  
 

 

I wouldn't have minded promoting someone from inside and I wouldnt have minded him hiring on the open market. My preference has been that he continue focusing on head coach responsibilities.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The Defense has not been inadequate for 5 years.  It was a top 5 defense. 

 

It has been the small sample size of playoff losses that did Frazier in.  That and a passive look that is unappealing to fans.

 

 

To be fair he said "calling the defense inadequately" not that the defense has been inadequate.

 

Just now, GoBills808 said:

You said it right here in the above lol

 

Somehow McDermott allowed Frazier to run a defense he knew to be inadequate for 5 years. I'm not buying that sorry

 

And to be fair again, it is possible for coaches to change schemes over the years. It could be that McD is looking to move away from what we have been mostly running. Not that he has been unhappy with it for 5 years.

 

I'll be patient. I lean more homer than not. I hope we do see a big change to the Defense. And if we do, then I'll give McD all the credit in the world.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

To be fair he said "calling the defense inadequately" not that the defense has been inadequate.

 

 

And to be fair again, it is possible for coaches to change schemes over the years. It could be that McD is looking to move away from what we have been mostly running. Not that he has been unhappy with it for 5 years.

 

I'll be patient. I lean more homer than not. I hope we do see a big change to the Defense. And if we do, then I'll give McD all the credit in the world.

I tend to be optimistic too

 

But I'm now leaning skeptical of McDermott and this does nothing to alleviate that