Isaac Seumalo, G, **Update - Signed by Steelers

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, Virgil said:

From my understanding, he's able to play both G and C, maybe a little smaller, but great pass protection and the Eagles ran the ball very successfully.  Talked to an Eagles fan and he's just the odd man out due to depth and other signings.  

 

At this point, I think he'd be a good cheap option that can play the other G spot.  

 

 

PFF apparently predicts he'll be 3 years and $33M.

 

That sounds like a reasonable guess, on the high side a bit but maybe not that high. 

 

Too much.

 

He's a really good player, but everybody knows this. It's why he'll get paid.

 

I'd love to be wrong. I think he's a good player.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Chaos said:

You can hate on PFF.  But they are far more reliable the the JFR ratings. So it simply is true. Below average in 2022. 

 

 

Um, no.

 

You should grab yourself a dictionary and look up two words. One is "opinion," and the other is "fact." There is a fact there. But that is simply that in PFF's opinion he gets a yadda yadda score and a yadda yadda ranking. That's where the facts run out.

 

You seem to have this idea that because PFF said it, it's true and that there is no argument to it. And that's both wrong and stupid. They're a good organization. But their process tends to favor people-movers and monsters over athletic OLs, and that's not how we block or what we value in OLs. PFF are one data point. That is all. They are not some kind of perfect final arbiters.

 

He went to the pro bowl this year. That's another data point, just as important. The Bills love him, they let him play through his contract and extended him. They love his performance, they've showed that with money and with confidence. That's another point. Virtually nobody lists center as a need for the Bills except for the future after he leaves. That's another. And unfortunately there are far more positive opinions than negative.

 

People who love road graders won't like him. But that's not what the Bills want, clearly. They want athletic OLs. They want smart OLs. Morse is both. 

 

I have no doubt if they could find somebody who was smart athletic and a road grader as well, they'd love that. But those guys are rare. 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

How many games do you watch a year.  If you watch four games a week, and focus on nothing but oline play, that means you will have seen 25% of plays.  If you watch only Bills games, you see a small fraction of the games overweighted with 6 of them being AFC east opponents.   None of our eye tests really matter, other than too ourselves. 

 

I watch 8-10 games a week every week of the regular season. I watch the condensed game versions (about 45 minutes but show every play) on my commute. Each year there are a few teams I get to the end of the season and have barely watched but most teams in the NFL I have a pretty good feel for and could name like 17 or 18 of their starting lineup and tell you what I think of their play. 

 

So I feel like I have a pretty good base fron which to judge strength of rosters and players across the league. 

[BeastMode54]

I don't see us adding another interior lineman in FA. I feel like they think they are set with Morse, Bates, Connor and Boetger

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

Like others have said, he's going to cost more money than we can afford. If Seumalo was in play for us, we'd have not signed McGovern. McGovern and Bates are our Guards.

 

Maybe they bring in another Guard that could compete with Bates and be depth. Or Draft one within the first few Rounds. But they aren't going to bring in someone who has a market value of 12.1 per year at this point. That would have been our first move if it were to happen.

 

 

Yeah, that's what it looks like to me as well.

[Simon Says]

Probably a relatively high asking price and decent guards have been signing for less than he might be asking.

Also injury concerns: knee and Lisfranc. Teams being cautious.

 

[Rockinon]

I believe it is a balancing act when deciding whether to improve offense vs defense. 2yrs ago the offense was spectacular in the post season and the defense(coaching?) let us down. Last year, the offense couldn't score points against Cincy.  But, losing Edmunds to free agency is no small loss either. You cannot ignore one side of the ball at the expense of the other. Fortunately, there are free agents and there are multiple draft picks.

 

 

I believe the draft is going to come down to the best player on the board regardless of whether it is offense or defense. Last year was a very strange draft. The team had so few needs that it wasn't a truly best impact player available type draft. That has significantly changed this year. There are multiple spots that need upgrades, multiple positions with aging vets. This draft will be much less about filling holes and much more about impact players. It has to be because of the shear number of needs.

 

At the beginning of the season last year, the Bills were considered one of the most complete teams with the most depth. The difference this year is staggering.  I believe Beane has no choice but to go with players that will have the most impact, and sacrifice trying to fill every hole. This team isn't going to have the most depth this year. Maybe some more impact players. Beane has his work cut out for him. He'll have to play the hand he is given and he'll have to be a hard core gambler to pull off a successful off season.  Things change. Hopefully, Beane rolls with them and doesn't sacrifice long term success. A lot of things to consider. He'll have to earn his paycheck this year.

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I watch 8-10 games a week every week of the regular season. I watch the condensed game versions (about 45 minutes but show every play) on my commute. Each year there are a few teams I get to the end of the season and have barely watched but most teams in the NFL I have a pretty good feel for and could name like 17 or 18 of their starting lineup and tell you what I think of their play. 

 

So I feel like I have a pretty good base fron which to judge strength of rosters and players across the league. 

so less than teams of people who watch every game and sell their results for megabucks to NFL teams and the public.  No disrespect, but until you can monetize your opinions with the NFL, there is no reason for anyone else to think they are better or more accurate.   Just different. 

[gflande1]

Would he be a better center than Morse? We would save some money but cutting Morse that could be used on a FA upgrade. I’m concerned about his concussions, surprised he hasn’t retired. 
 

if not him, what about Pocic or McGovern (NJJ) ?

Edited March 18, 2023 by gflande1

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

He's solid, but the eagles have major investment in Kelce and their tackles. It's not shocking to me that they had to let a good o line player walk

[GunnerBill]

34 minutes ago, Chaos said:

so less than teams of people who watch every game and sell their results for megabucks to NFL teams and the public.  No disrespect, but until you can monetize your opinions with the NFL, there is no reason for anyone else to think they are better or more accurate.   Just different. 

 

Fair. Although I have no interest in monetising my opinions with the NFL. It is a hobby. I don't want to do it for my career.

[Yantha]

This OG is my #1 hopeful FA acquisition this year.

LG upgrade.  and a major one.

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Agreed, our O-line is / should be a top priority,  only God knows why it gets ignored for the most part every off season, 

I'm not completely in agreement that the oline gets ignored though. 

 

Beane has made moves like Ford, Saffold, and Brown. His misses have hurt to solidify the oline combined with some negligence as well. 

[Don Otreply]

18 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I'm not completely in agreement that the oline gets ignored though. 

 

Beane has made moves like Ford, Saffold, and Brown. His misses have hurt to solidify the oline combined with some negligence as well. 

I said, “For the most part”  what Beane does do would include, what I and others consider to be, a minimal effort to acquire better quality O-lineman, instead he continues to bring in backups,  and developmental players as starters, only our center and LT are above average, and come the post season, it shows in a big way, He won’t overtly say it, but I would suspect Josh is getting tired of this crap…, 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Don Otreply

[HappyDays]

 

[RichRiderBills]

Huge miss for us. He's 2x the player McGovern is. 

[Chaos]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

hmm

[BillsFanForever19]

10 hours ago, Yantha said:

This OG is my #1 hopeful FA acquisition this year.

LG upgrade.  and a major one.

 

Connor McGovern already said in his Presser that he was brought in to play LG. 

[John from Riverside]

12 hours ago, BeastMode54 said:

I don't see us adding another interior lineman in FA. I feel like they think they are set with Morse, Bates, Connor and Boetger

I like the sign one draft one philosophy I think that works
 

People need to understand we’re not gonna be able to fork out huge money for free agent. Anything we’re gonna have to develop these guys

 

Your starting line is probably on the team right now, but they can draft a guy that could overtake a player that’s on the team right now

52 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

Huge miss for us. He's 2x the player McGovern is. 

Let’s take a look at this whenever we actually see them playing with their new teams
 

I think you’re wrong

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, Chaos said:

so less than teams of people who watch every game and sell their results for megabucks to NFL teams and the public.  No disrespect, but until you can monetize your opinions with the NFL, there is no reason for anyone else to think they are better or more accurate.   Just different. 

 

 

The fact that they've got teams of people gives them an advantage. But there are lots of ways to get an advantage. 

 

There's no reason to think that 

 

Your idea that because they have lots of people so all the games get watched makes them better is seriously pathetic, like a child's view. It's not just simplistic, it's dumb.

 

That would mean that the Pro Bowl would be the ultimate arbiter, the perfect and unassailable  After all, those are decided by millions of people. Together those people have watched all of the games. Amazing to consider, but they've watched them thousands of times more, cumulatively, than even the Gods at PFF.

 

PFF is a good organization. Their stuff is worth looking at. But they are one data point. One. 

 

You're coming across as a small person who looked around to find an organization that agreed with him and then decided that because they agreed with him, they were the only ones worth listening to.

 

It's a dumb idea. They are one data point. Worth paying attention to. Not worth kneeling in front of and worshipping as a god. Doing so only shows your confirmation bias.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Thurman#1

[BillsFanForever19]

58 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

Huge miss for us. He's 2x the player McGovern is. 

 

I mean - it's cool to say you'd have preferred Isaac over Connor. But after we signed Connor, this was never going to happen. I can understand wishing for more. But once a move is made, it's made. They aren't going to say "the fans think we should have done more, let's go out and try again" after they've identified the player and spent the money.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, RichRiderBills said:

Huge miss for us. He's 2x the player McGovern is. 

 

 

He'll cost a lot more. Easy for fans to say, "He's better, we should have got him." We don't have a budget for football players.

[Virgil]

Any idea on the financials?

 

I wasn’t aware of his injury history 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

I like the sign one draft one philosophy I think that works
 

People need to understand we’re not gonna be able to fork out huge money for free agent. Anything we’re gonna have to develop these guys

 

Your starting line is probably on the team right now, but they can draft a guy that could overtake a player that’s on the team right now

Let’s take a look at this whenever we actually see them playing with their new teams
 

I think you’re wrong

Agreed.  He’s better….but he’s gonna dip playing on the Steelers line and not between Kelce and Johnson.  
 

Eager to see the financials.

 

prediction - 3-38-  26 gtd 

[Virgil]

30 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Agreed.  He’s better….but he’s gonna dip playing on the Steelers line and not between Kelce and Johnson.  
 

Eager to see the financials.

 

prediction - 3-38-  26 gtd 

I’ll say 3 for 24, 11 gtd 

[NewEra]

18 minutes ago, Virgil said:

I’ll say 3 for 24, 11 gtd 

Earlier today I was thinking he’d get 3- 30

 

but when I saw it was the Steelers, I figured they’d have to pay more.  

[MrEpsYtown]

Pitt is stacking guards. They have Kevin Dotson, James Daniels, Mason Cole at center and just signed Nate Herbig. I’m guessing they cut somebody? 

[BillsFanForever19]

50 minutes ago, Virgil said:

I’ll say 3 for 24, 11 gtd 

 

His estimated market value is 12.2 per. Might be a little lower - but I don't see it going that much lower.

 

We're paying Connor McGovern 7.5 annually ourselves. Ben Powers got 12.9 annually. No way Seumalo only gets 8.

Edited March 19, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Of course. Of coooooourse 

[Virgil]

https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/11132/isaac-seumalo
 

3 for 24!!!   Nailed it.  
 

Sucks the Bills weren’t in on it 

[Chaos]

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

They are one data point. Worth paying attention to. Not worth kneeling in front of and worshipping as a god.

Literally everyone (in the true sense of the word literally) understands PFF is one data point. Your wisdom is non-existant. Your leap to the conclusion, that people who disagree with you are worshipping one data point, is so ridiculous, it is only exceeded by the ignorance of your comment.  

[RichRiderBills]

27 minutes ago, Virgil said:

https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/11132/isaac-seumalo
 

3 for 24!!!   Nailed it.  
 

Sucks the Bills weren’t in on it 

 

Its mind baffling Virgil...I came off that Cincy game and this season thinking we really needed to get tougher on the oline. Get meaner with a more physical attitude. It appears the Bills don't share those concerns....

 

At a minimum, we have huge depth needs this year and needed solid bodies.

 

No ones looking for a power running team, but Beane and CO are not on the same page with OLine talent. There have been huge mistakes and those mistakes have been made trying to find lower priced gems in the rough, bringing them in on revolving short term deals, and hoping to develop them. This has largely had C- results.

 

This track record is a factor when I don't give Beane the "benefit of the doubt" like a good fan should. With OL matters, I simply don't trust them. 

 

Also the Bills are so stubborn on some (particular) developmental projects like Ford and Brown, they hang on to them much longer out of either arrogance or stubbornness, then jettisoned guys like Teller.

 

Hell, even our so-called stalwarts like Dawkins and Morse, could be gone in 1-2 years. I just don't get why there was not more priority put on the OL and bringing in a top vet this off season. We had the money to do this....we chose not to and to get by with less....essentially we are not valuing the OL. This will kill us next January.

 

I'm scratching my head on a couple of the moves / non moves. 

[Chaos]

35 minutes ago, Virgil said:

https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/11132/isaac-seumalo
 

3 for 24!!!   Nailed it.  
 

Sucks the Bills weren’t in on it 

We saved a cool 400k per year going with McGovern.  He was only 7.6 per season, and is several years younger. McGovern may well end up being the better signing. Interesting how the Steelers seemed to be focusing on building a great online for Kenny Pickett, rather than focus on defense and let Pickett carry the offense by himself.  Very odd of the Steelers. 

[RichRiderBills]

7 minutes ago, Chaos said:

We saved a cool 400k per year going with McGovern.  He was only 7.6 per season, and is several years younger. McGovern may well end up being the better signing. Interesting how the Steelers seemed to be focusing on building a great online for Kenny Pickett, rather than focus on defense and let Pickett carry the offense by himself.  Very odd of the Steelers. 

 

I think the Steelers know a thing or two about how to build a team. Stack an oline for a young QB...run...pass...balanced o in the cold weather built for runs in January. They have an identity...and that's very cool.

 

...better than our current identy which is to let Allen run around like a chicken with his head cut off and huck it deep into gusts and wind.

 

Frankly, even K-gun prioritized oline as well...we stacked guys and horded talent on the line....you can argue that line built the K-gun. Shoot, and when the weather got cold and snowy we threw screen passes galore and ran the ball.....not the huck it deep downfield attack forcing throws into wind and bad weather that people falsely recall. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by RichRiderBills

[Beck Water]

45 minutes ago, Virgil said:

https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/11132/isaac-seumalo
 

3 for 24!!!   Nailed it.  
 

Sucks the Bills weren’t in on it 

 

Let's wait and see how the details unfold.  In theory, McGovern's contract is similar at 3 yrs/ $22M.  But his cap hit this season is $4k, and he's guaranteed $8k. 

 

Those are always the details that matter - what is this year's cap hit, what is actually guaranteed.

 

Also, Seumalo is 29.  McGovern is 25.    If the Bills feel Kromer can develop McGovern and he can lock down LG long term, it would explain in part why they chose him.

 

12 minutes ago, Chaos said:

We saved a cool 400k per year going with McGovern.  He was only 7.6 per season, and is several years younger. McGovern may well end up being the better signing. Interesting how the Steelers seemed to be focusing on building a great online for Kenny Pickett, rather than focus on defense and let Pickett carry the offense by himself.  Very odd of the Steelers. 

 

The $400k savings per year are chicken feed, but let's see the details of Seamulo's contract.  All $8k/yr contracts are not equal.

[Einstein's Dog]

3 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

I think the Steelers know a thing or two about how to build a team. Stack an oline for a young QB...run...pass...balanced o in the cold weather built for runs in January. They have an identity...and that's very cool.

 

...better than our current identy which is to let Allen run around like a chicken with his head cut off and huck it deep into gusts and wind.

 

Pretty ridiculous statements right there.  The Steelers have a better offensive identity than the Bills?  Maybe if this were the 1970s.

 

You are living in the past if you think the Steelers are building a good team.  They look like heavy favorites to be the last in their division - congrats to them.  And wasn't this the organization that did the first round pick on the RB (that got less ypc than Singletary). 

The Bills don't and shouldn't aspire to be the crusty Steelers.

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

Huge miss for us. He's 2x the player McGovern is. 

 

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.  Who a player is, especially on OL, is a moving target.  Because a player has been better, doesn't necessarily mean that he will be better.  Father time is undefeated and injuries do take a toll.

 

Last year, we brought in an aged vet with an injury history to give us quality LG play for a year.  It didn't work out.

 

Seumalo is an aging vet (not as aged as Saffold, but will be close at the end of his contract) with a distinguished career and a significant injury history.

McGovern is a young player with development ahead of him.  The Bills chose to go with a younger player, whom they feel is a better fit on their line.  I had high hopes for Saffold, and it didn't work out.  We'll see how this works, but I can't look at it in the abstract and say "Seumalo has been a great guard on a great OL therefore he automatically will be better than a guy who filled in capably for the Cowboys."

 

I will be very disappointed if the Bills don't still add a couple of players - an OT and if they don't draft OL fairly high.

[Green Lightning]

22 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

Its mind baffling Virgil...I came off that Cincy game and this season thinking we really needed to get tougher on the oline. Get meaner with a more physical attitude. It appears the Bills don't share those concerns....

 

At a minimum, we have huge depth needs this year and needed solid bodies.

 

No ones looking for a power running team, but Beane and CO are not on the same page with OLine talent. There have been huge mistakes and those mistakes have been made trying to find lower priced gems in the rough, bringing them in on revolving short term deals, and hoping to develop them. This has largely had C- results.

 

This track record is a factor when I don't give Beane the "benefit of the doubt" like a good fan should. With OL matters, I simply don't trust them. 

 

Also the Bills are so stubborn on some (particular) developmental projects like Ford and Brown, they hang on to them much longer out of either arrogance or stubbornness, then jettisoned guys like Teller.

 

Hell, even our so-called stalwarts like Dawkins and Morse, could be gone in 1-2 years. I just don't get why there was not more priority put on the OL and bringing in a top vet this off season. We had the money to do this....we chose not to and to get by with less....essentially we are not valuing the OL. This will kill us next January.

 

I'm scratching my head on a couple of the moves / non moves. 

Have to agree. Our Oline scared nobody last year and it won't this year. So when we need 3rd and 2, it's Josh getting a pounding again while our line gets pushed back consistently. Beane loves flexible lineman who play multiple positions but dominant in none. It's a finesse  line that does okay with Super Josh at the helm until we meet a playoff team with a great DC who makes one dimensional.  

[DrDawkinstein]

16 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

I think the Steelers know a thing or two about how to build a team. Stack an oline for a young QB...run...pass...balanced o in the cold weather built for runs in January. They have an identity...and that's very cool.

 

...better than our current identy which is to let Allen run around like a chicken with his head cut off and huck it deep into gusts and wind.

 

Frankly, even K-gun prioritized oline as well...we stacked guys and horded talent on the line....you can argue that line built the K-gun. Shoot, and when the weather got cold and snowy we threw screen passes galore and ran the ball.....not the huck it deep downfield attack forcing throws into wind and bad weather that people falsely recall. 

 

Maybe historically, but lately it's been not good in the Steel City. Their roster was at the bottom for talent, and Tomlin deserves a medal for somehow keeping them above .500 again. They've struggled with how to build a roster recently. And I'm not convinced they have the right blueprint for the modern NFL.

 

Not saying to ignore the Oline, but they've ignored or misjudged a lot to get them to this point.

[GolfandBills]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Reasonable contract… not sure we didn’t attempt to go after him. 

I’m assuming all the injury history they didn’t want to take the gamble for 8 million a season when they are already tight to the cap.