Week 12: Bills at Lions on Thanksgiving

[Negan]

1 hour ago, CNYfan said:

I think the Bills pass defense has been poor the past two contests and the Lions are prolific at scoring points.    The Bills will, again, probably need north of 30 points to win on Thursday.  

The 8 yard loss was the facemask tackle by Clowney.  

I forgot about the horrendous missed facemask by clowney, right in front of the refs, reminded me of the tripping non call right in front of the refs in KC.  Almost seems like WWE refs have more integrity than NFL refs.

 

[DCbillsfan]

10 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Well our media only seems to be asking how it feels to have Josh Allen, or what it means to them to get their driveway shoveled. 

 

Instead of something like, Brandon Beane told the media that Nyheim Hines would be used all over the field, in the slot, catching screens, handoffs, motion plays. Why has he only been used as a special teams player and not in the offense?  

 

But I guess a better question of your OC or Head Coach is what does it mean to you that Detroit shared their stadium on short notice? 

My hope is the Bills are installing plays specifically for Hines and waiting to use them against AFC East opponents.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

22 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said:

My hope is the Bills are installing plays specifically for Hines and waiting to use them against AFC East opponents.  

Yeah, I listened to the Dorsey press conference, and there was one media member who was aware, and actually pressed Dorsey on usage of Hines and McKenzie's lack of productivity the entire season.  

 

I share the concern among other fans here that we are getting nothing out of the slot right now. 

[SCBills]

30 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah, I listened to the Dorsey press conference, and there was one media member who was aware, and actually pressed Dorsey on usage of Hines and McKenzie's lack of productivity the entire season.  

 

I share the concern among other fans here that we are getting nothing out of the slot right now. 

On MNF, there was a play where McCoy threw it to where the slot receiver was supposed to sit down in the zone on 4th and a couple yards.   The WR ran the normal route instead of breaking it off.  Pass fell incomplete with only the defender having a chance at it.  
 

Judging by some of the breakdowns of his play I’ve heard by the podcast guys, I don’t think Josh trusts McKenzie to know what to do on plays where the WR is supposed to read the defense in determining the route progression called. … nor does it seem McKenzie gives him any reason to. 
 

Edited November 22, 2022 by SCBills

[DCbillsfan]

31 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah, I listened to the Dorsey press conference, and there was one media member who was aware, and actually pressed Dorsey on usage of Hines and McKenzie's lack of productivity the entire season.  

 

I share the concern among other fans here that we are getting nothing out of the slot right now. 

I would add Shakir to that question.  They don't give him any targets as well.  I know he's a rookie but we're 10 games into the season. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by DCbillsfan

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

On MNF, there was a play where McCoy through it to where the slot receiver was supposed to sit down in the zone on 4th and a couple yards.   The WR ran the normal route instead of breaking it off.  Pass fell incomplete with only the defender having a chance at it.  
 

Judging by some of the breakdowns of his play I’ve heard by the podcast guys, I don’t think Josh trusts McKenzie to know what to do on plays where the WR is supposed to read the defense in determining the route progression called. … nor does it seem McKenzie gives him any reason to. 

Remember in 2014 with Watkins? 

 

The Bills would park him on the outside all game, and he'd be a decoy 90% of the game. 

 

All the fans would watch the game, see that Watkins has 3 catches for 31 yards and ask themselves why are there no flares, no bubble screens. If you can't figure out how to throw to him, could you hand it off, could you pitch it to him? 

 

And the coaches just were always miffed at any question as to why the 4th overall pick was touching the ball 2-3 times per game, and actually were pitching to fans the value of a decoy. 

 

I think the same thing now with McKenzie. He's more quick than fast, but still one of the faster players on the team from 0-20 yards, why can't they figure a way to get him in motion pre-snap and use him on drag routes over the middle, or pop a bubble screen? Look at what McDaniel is doing in Miami by simply having Hill and Waddle running across the formation at the snap. 

 

When Daboll was here a lot of us were asking why isn't he used more? But Sanders and Beasley added to Diggs and Davis and Knox made that less of a concern. But now? This team is in desperate need of some speed. And the Bills extended McKenzie. So why can't they figure out simple ways to get him the ball. 

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Remember in 2014 with Watkins? 

 

The Bills would park him on the outside all game, and he'd be a decoy 90% of the game. 

 

All the fans would watch the game, see that Watkins has 3 catches for 31 yards and ask themselves why are there no flares, no bubble screens. If you can't figure out how to throw to him, could you hand it off, could you pitch it to him? 

 

And the coaches just were always miffed at any question as to why the 4th overall pick was touching the ball 2-3 times per game, and actually were pitching to fans the value of a decoy. 

 

I think the same thing now with McKenzie. He's more quick than fast, but still one of the faster players on the team from 0-20 yards, why can't they figure a way to get him in motion pre-snap and use him on drag routes over the middle, or pop a bubble screen? Look at what McDaniel is doing in Miami by simply having Hill and Waddle running across the formation at the snap. 

 

When Daboll was here a lot of us were asking why isn't he used more? But Sanders and Beasley added to Diggs and Davis and Knox made that less of a concern. But now? This team is in desperate need of some speed. And the Bills extended McKenzie. So why can't they figure out simple ways to get him the ball. 

Don’t disagree with this at all. 
 

Why McKenzie doesn’t run pre-snap motion or shallow crossers is beyond me. 
 

Watching KC’s offense, then ours, feels like they’re in advanced learning and we’re stuck in remedial classes. 

[finn]

1 minute ago, DCbillsfan said:

I would add Shakir to that question as well.  They don't give him any targets as well.  I know he's a rookie but we're 10 games into the season. 

They really miss Beasley, or at least Beasley in his prime. He was a zone killer, and the Bills don't have anyone like that. If you take Diggs out, like the Browns seemed to, and there's not much left. A better run game will help, but Beane gambled that either McKenzie or Crowder could step up. Hasn't worked out that way. Like other posters here, I'd say it's time for Shakir, Cook, and Hines. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

Don’t disagree with this at all. 
 

Why McKenzie doesn’t run pre-snap motion or shallow crossers is beyond me. 
 

Watching KC’s offense, then ours, feels like they’re in advanced learning and we’re stuck in remedial classes. 

We agree, there just isn't much motion in this offense. 

 

The most creativity we have is occasionally sticking Hines on the outside now, occasionally a trips-bunch. 

 

But most of the time it's a static man on man look. 

1 minute ago, finn said:

They really miss Beasley, or at least Beasley in his prime. He was a zone killer, and the Bills don't have anyone like that. If you take Diggs out, like the Browns seemed to, and there's not much left. A better run game will help, but Beane gambled that either McKenzie or Crowder could step up. Hasn't worked out that way. Like other posters here, I'd say it's time for Shakir, Cook, and Hines. 

Yeah, and what I heard in Dorsey's press conference, he's talking about not upsetting the balance by "forcing" it to guys. 

 

But in my head it's like Ken, there are 7 games left man. 

 

How much time left do you have to get Hines some meaningful touches, try and get McKenzie the ball 1-3 times a game, get Shakir 1-2 catches per game. 

 

 

[SCBills]

As good as Singletary looks lately.. I’m ready for James Cook to be the lead back. 
 

Would love to see him and Knox continue to be a bigger focus moving forward.  Especially after them both having strong games on Sunday. 
 

It likely won’t happen, re: Cook, because our staff is loyal to a fault at times .. but he looks explosive, capable of running between the tackles and has a knack of falling forward for 2-3 yards when there isn’t anything there. 
 

It’s not even really a knock on Singletary.. I just think, given how teams are playing us, along with our own internal issues, we need explosiveness in other areas.    Easiest way to find that is by handing/pitching it directly to Cook & Hines. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, SCBills said:

As good as Singletary looks lately.. I’m ready for James Cook to be the lead back. 
 

Would love to see him and Knox continue to be a bigger focus moving forward.  Especially after them both having strong games on Sunday. 
 

It likely won’t happen, re: Cook, because our staff is loyal to a fault at times .. but he looks explosive, capable of running between the tackles and has a knack of falling forward for 2-3 yards when there isn’t anything there. 
 

It’s not even really a knock on Singletary.. I just think, given how teams are playing us, along with our own internal issues, we need explosiveness in other areas.    Easiest way to find that is by handing/pitching it directly to Cook & Hines. 

Yes, the toss sweep back in the offense, instead of the molasses slow RPO out of shotgun that gets blown up every time. 

 

Maybe Knox becomes more of the moveable chess piece. 

[Son of a K-Gun]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

As good as Singletary looks lately.. I’m ready for James Cook to be the lead back. 
 

Would love to see him and Knox continue to be a bigger focus moving forward.  Especially after them both having strong games on Sunday. 
 

It likely won’t happen, re: Cook, because our staff is loyal to a fault at times .. but he looks explosive, capable of running between the tackles and has a knack of falling forward for 2-3 yards when there isn’t anything there. 
 

It’s not even really a knock on Singletary.. I just think, given how teams are playing us, along with our own internal issues, we need explosiveness in other areas.    Easiest way to find that is by handing/pitching it directly to Cook & Hines. 

I'm just happy that Cook is getting the carries that Moss would infuriatingly take away from Motor.

[Scott7975]

 

[mikemac2001]

Just now, Son of a K-Gun said:

I'm just happy that Cook is getting the carries that Moss would infuriatingly take away from Motor.

Cook is looking way better hope we can keep boosting his touches 

[Warriorspikes51]

Cook and Hines (on return) have shown real speed and explosiveness. 

Get them the ball. 
 

5 Spread with Diggs Davis Shakir Cook Hines 
2 WR Diggs Davis, 1 TE Knox, 2 RB  Cook Hines 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Warriorspikes51

[jkeerie]

3 hours ago, CNYfan said:

I think the Bills pass defense has been poor the past two contests and the Lions are prolific at scoring points.    The Bills will, again, probably need north of 30 points to win on Thursday.  

The 8 yard loss was the facemask tackle by Clowney.  

That's right!  Couldn't believe they didn't throw a flag on that one!  Those refs were awful!

[SCBills]

If I’m Dorsey, I simplify things and stop trying to force pieces that aren’t working.   We’ve played 10 games. 
 

Settle on personnel sets.  
 

Singletary/Cook in the backfield.  Ideally getting towards a 50/50 split.  Cook warrants that, at least. 
 

Diggs & Davis outside.  
 

If the staff wants Shakir to be rookie year Gabe Davis and rotate in/back up all WR positions, fine.  Not ideal, but we have literally no depth, so I get it. 
 

If McKenzie isn’t working.  Give that role to Hines.  He literally can’t be less effective than what we’re currently getting from the slot.   Jet motion, line up in the backfield, line up in the slot. 
 

More Knox, especially in the safety valve, chain mover role.  
 

Gilliam, Morris and Hart all used in heavier sets. 
 

Basically… what id love to see starting on Thursday…. More Knox. More Cook.  Hines over McKenzie. 

[Scott7975]

and the lack of use will continue

 

 

[Warriorspikes51]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

If I’m Dorsey, I simplify things and stop trying to force pieces that aren’t working.   We’ve played 10 games. 
 

Settle on personnel sets.  
 

Singletary/Cook in the backfield.  Ideally getting towards a 50/50 split.  Cook warrants that, at least. 
 

Diggs & Davis outside.  
 

If the staff wants Shakir to be rookie year Gabe Davis and rotate in/back up all WR positions, fine.  Not ideal, but we have literally no depth, so I get it. 
 

If McKenzie isn’t working.  Give that role to Hines.  He literally can’t be less effective than what we’re currently getting from the slot.   Jet motion, line up in the backfield, line up in the slot. 
 

More Knox, especially in the safety valve, chain mover role.  
 

Gilliam, Morris and Hart all used in heavier sets. 
 

Basically… what id love to see starting on Thursday…. More Knox. More Cook.  Hines over McKenzie. 

Agreed and get Shakir some targets as well. 

[RiotAct]

Just now, Scott7975 said:

and the lack of use will continue

 

 

4-D chess

[Warcodered]

3 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

and the lack of use will continue

 

 

Even if it actually was the plan he's hardly going to admit to it.

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

and the lack of use will continue

 

 

It does seem like they are constantly finding reasons to not play guys.  It’s weird. 
 

Although, I’m sure he’s not going to come out and say “yes, he’s going to be more involved” so the Lions can prepare for that. 

[atlbillsfan1975]

1 hour ago, Negan said:

I forgot about the horrendous missed facemask by clowney, right in front of the refs, reminded me of the tripping non call right in front of the refs in KC.  Almost seems like WWE refs have more integrity than NFL refs.

 

Compound it with the fact that the ref’s later called a face mask Against the Bills. That call involved a Brown player who wasn’t even the ball carrier. 

[HappyDays]

This is crazy.

 

 

[Logic]

My main critique of Dorsey so far is that he doesn't seem to know how to get the most out of the Bills' complementary pieces.

With Daboll, I felt like he used every single tool in the tool chest. He had plays for Diggs, plays for Beasley, plays for McKenzie...we even had third string tight ends and swing tackles catching touchdowns.

 

With Dorsey...I don't get that feeling. 

My concern started with the lack of usage of James Cook in the passing game. Rookie or not, he was brought in to be an explosive addition as a pass catcher. Even now that he's finally starting to get some usage, it looks like he just runs the same plays as Singletary. The lack of creativity in the usage of Cook, which has now extended to the lack of creativity so far in the usage of Hines, is confounding. 

 

In Cook, Hines, and McKenzie, the Bills have quite a bit of speed and explosiveness. For an offense that has lacked punch the past several weeks, speed and explosiveness seem like much needed commodities. And yet, week after week, I don't see many/any manufactured touches for these guys. It's not rocket surgery. As others have said, the McDaniels and Shanahans and Reids of the world don't seem to have an issue getting the ball into the fast guys' hands.

I'll give Dorsey credit for one thing that he's better at than Daboll, seemingly: Getting the ball to Stefon Diggs no matter what the defense is doing. Too often under Daboll, Diggs would all but disappear for whole games. That doesn't seem to happen any more. The way that Diggs is moved around the formation and seems all but immune to being erased now is awesome. It's the usage of the REST of the offensive skill weapons that has been lacking.

[Warriorspikes51]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

This is crazy.

 

 

0 Turnovers = Victory 

[Big Turk]

Bills are still #1 in DVOA.

 

#6 on Offense

#3 on Defense

#3 on ST

 

Bills are the ONLY team in the NFL in the top 10 in all 3.

 

Lions:

#10 on Offense

#25 on Defense

#12 on ST

Edited November 22, 2022 by Big Turk

[Low Positive]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

This is crazy.

 

 

It just means that when the Bills are clicking on offense, it is a high-risk/high-reward style. Josh tries to force the ball into tight windows. It was working before the bye week. I mean, how many times did the media say "no one else could make that throw?" The game winner to Knox in KC or that one where Davis ripped it out of Fitzpatrick's hands against PIT come to mind. If you attempt those throws, some will get picked off. This week, he didn't try to make those throws. Josh had Diggs open in tight(ish) windows and chose to check down instead. We didn't turn the ball over, but there were no wow plays. I'm not sure what I prefer. 

[finn]

37 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Yeah, and what I heard in Dorsey's press conference, he's talking about not upsetting the balance by "forcing" it to guys. 

 

What balance? Diggs has more than twice as many catches as any other receiver. Dorsey is going to lose the Bills more games if he wants to continue this "balance." 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Big Turk]

9 minutes ago, Logic said:

My main critique of Dorsey so far is that he doesn't seem to know how to get the most out of the Bills' complementary pieces.

With Daboll, I felt like he used every single tool in the tool chest. He had plays for Diggs, plays for Beasley, plays for McKenzie...we even had third string tight ends and swing tackles catching touchdowns.

 

With Dorsey...I don't get that feeling. 

My concern started with the lack of usage of James Cook in the passing game. Rookie or not, he was brought in to be an explosive addition as a pass catcher. Even now that he's finally starting to get some usage, it looks like he just runs the same plays as Singletary. The lack of creativity in the usage of Cook, which has now extended to the lack of creativity so far in the usage of Hines, is confounding. 

 

In Cook, Hines, and McKenzie, the Bills have quite a bit of speed and explosiveness. For an offense that has lacked punch the past several weeks, speed and explosiveness seem like much needed commodities. And yet, week after week, I don't see many/any manufactured touches for these guys. It's not rocket surgery. As others have said, the McDaniels and Shanahans and Reids of the world don't seem to have an issue getting the ball into the fast guys' hands.

I'll give Dorsey credit for one thing that he's better at than Daboll, seemingly: Getting the ball to Stefon Diggs no matter what the defense is doing. Too often under Daboll, Diggs would all but disappear for whole games. That doesn't seem to happen any more. The way that Diggs is moved around the formation and seems all but immune to being erased now is awesome. It's the usage of the REST of the offensive skill weapons that has been lacking.

 

Bills are better in pretty much every offensive category under Dorsey than under Daboll from last year, and especially on the Offensive Drive stat numbers. Average over 7 yards per drive more in terms of yards. Doesn't seem like much but it's a LOT considering the number of drives per game.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Big Turk

[Warriorspikes51]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Lions should wear their throwback blues, 90's Lion helmet with shiny silver pants. 

Not a fan of their grey jerseys 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

Silver vs white?  Bills need to be in blue I feel.

[Big Turk]

6 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

It just means that when the Bills are clicking on offense, it is a high-risk/high-reward style. Josh tries to force the ball into tight windows. It was working before the bye week. I mean, how many times did the media say "no one else could make that throw?" The game winner to Knox in KC or that one where Davis ripped it out of Fitzpatrick's hands against PIT come to mind. If you attempt those throws, some will get picked off. This week, he didn't try to make those throws. Josh had Diggs open in tight(ish) windows and chose to check down instead. We didn't turn the ball over, but there were no wow plays. I'm not sure what I prefer. 

 

Scoring 31 points on 7 consecutive drives is pretty awesome for a "boring" offense.

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

We didn't turn the ball over, but there were no wow plays. I'm not sure what I prefer. 

 

Scoring 30+ points without gifting the other team short fields is what I prefer. The offense had become too much feast or famine over the first half of the season. Against the Browns we got back to fundamentals which is ultimately what wins championships.

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by HappyDays

[Low Positive]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

Scoring 31 points on 7 consecutive drives is pretty awesome for a "boring" offense.

I agree. I also credit Dorsey/McDermott for recognizing that the Browns have a terrible run D and actually running the ball. Detroit is bad at both run and pass D, so we'll see what the game plan is for this week.

[Son of a K-Gun]

38 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Cook and Hines (on return) have shown real speed and explosiveness. 

Get them the ball. 
 

5 Spread with Diggs Davis Shakir Cook Hines 
2 WR Diggs Davis, 1 TE Knox, 2 RB  Cook Hines 

I really like the idea of showing 21 with Hines and Cook in the backfield and then motioning one or both out wide to create coverage mismatches.  Then we can see something like this...

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 hours ago, CNYfan said:

I think the Bills pass defense has been poor the past two contests and the Lions are prolific at scoring points.    The Bills will, again, probably need north of 30 points to win on Thursday.  

The 8 yard loss was the facemask tackle by Clowney.  

I don’t think it’s been as poor as it appears though.  The coverage was actually surprisingly good the last two weeks considering how many yards were allowed.  We just ran into Jefferson having the game of his life then jacoby brissett having the game of his life.  I’ve never seen him thread passes into tight coverage like that.  I don’t even think Goff is capable of that but we’ll see lol

 

i have admittedly not seen many lions games this year but I’d assume it’s more the lions scheming receivers open than Goff dropping dimes into tight coverage and his receivers making contested catches

 

If edmunds plays the game won’t even be remotely close but it sounds like he won’t be playing. That means the lions can be pretty effective by just picking on Dodson/Bernard all day 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Logic]

10 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Bills are better in pretty much every offensive category under Dorsey than under Daboll from last year, and especially on the Offensive Drive stat numbers. Average over 7 yards per drive more in terms of yards. Doesn't seem like much but it's a LOT considering the number of drives per game.

Thanks for the numbers.

It doesn't change my opinion of the things lacking in Dorsey's playcalling, though.

Numbers don't always tell the whole story.

In this case, I concede that the Bills offense, as a whole, is very productive, and its rankings and statistics prove it. Nevertheless, I feel they can be MORE productive. I feel like they could be 9-1 right now. I feel like they can re-establish their grip on the AFC if they can find ways to get more productivity out of their complementary pieces. This isn't a controversial opinion. Everyone from Bills fans to national analysts to the play-by-play guys for Bills games have been saying the same.

Hines, Cook, McKenzie. Lot of speed and explosiveness there. Find a way to use it!

[SCBills]

17 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

It just means that when the Bills are clicking on offense, it is a high-risk/high-reward style. Josh tries to force the ball into tight windows. It was working before the bye week. I mean, how many times did the media say "no one else could make that throw?" The game winner to Knox in KC or that one where Davis ripped it out of Fitzpatrick's hands against PIT come to mind. If you attempt those throws, some will get picked off. This week, he didn't try to make those throws. Josh had Diggs open in tight(ish) windows and chose to check down instead. We didn't turn the ball over, but there were no wow plays. I'm not sure what I prefer. 

Given teams are playing us to take away wow plays, if we stop turning it over and get better in the red zone … this offense will methodically score 40 ppg.   
 

*If Allen is willing to patient. 
 

Then, at some point, teams will come out of that defense.  Then… fireworks.  
 

It’s up to Allen really.  For the issues we may have, if the main pieces stay healthy (knock on wood), Allen’s physical traits are the only thing in the NFL on par with Reid/Mahomes genius. 
 

Edited November 22, 2022 by SCBills