NFLPA initiating investigation into Tua’s concussion protocol

[Scott7975]

10 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

I don't know why he'd be happy about being investigated.

 

Powerful story.  You could tell she is genuine and passionate about it because she was fighting back tears.

[Augie]

38 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

I don't know why he'd be happy about being investigated.

 

I think it’s kinda like OJ finding the real killers. Lies ya gotta tell…….

 

 

.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Augie

[4merper4mer]

7 hours ago, syhuang said:

re-injury what going into Bengals game, Mike? his back?

 

 

Anyone see the Dahmer series on Netflix?  If so,  this dude remind you at all of the “star” of that particular series?

[syhuang]

 

[Warcodered]

2 minutes ago, syhuang said:

 

 

"Yeah, I'm fine, can't wait to play the Bengals on Thursday."

[Beck Water]

On 10/1/2022 at 7:50 PM, syhuang said:

 

 

 

OK, so the sequence went something like:

Trainer: "Tua, you showed gross motor instability so you're gonna get evaluated for concussion"

[Concussion evaluation - Tua passes]

UNC: "OK, but you should be ruled out anyway, because gross motor instability..."

Team Doctor: "Nope, his gross motor instability was due to an earlier back injury being aggravated"

UNC: "My job here is done! Go forth and play football!"

 

??

 

See, I thought the player had to actually complete baseline testing that takes significant time and involves multiple questions, and that the INC had to watch the game film himself.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

21 hours ago, Augie said:

 

I’m sure he had every opportunity to bail out, but he wanted back in. Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves.

 

 

Especially, athletes on team sports are trained since they start playing to get back in the game

 

There's two parts to this

One is, "take one for the team", help your team, don't let your brothers down

The other is, "next man up", but if the next man up outplays you, no guarantees your job will be waiting when you return

 

Damn straight, they need to be protected from themselves.

[Beck Water]

On 10/1/2022 at 2:39 PM, Draconator said:

Hostility during the investigation process?!?!

 

I am shocked, SHOCKED to think that a neurosurgeon might display hostility towards having his professional judgement questioned.

 

There's a joke:

"How does a neurosurgeon change a lightbulb?"

"He holds it up, and the world revolves around him"

 

[HamSandwhich]

20 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Anyone see the Dahmer series on Netflix?  If so,  this dude remind you at all of the “star” of that particular series?

That actor is a damn good actor when it comes to creepy shows. I don’t even know who it is but when he’s in it, I know it will be well played. 

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, syhuang said:

 

 

Yeah, I want the actual real details released publicly not just "findings."  By saying that they can just come out and say we found that they followed protocol or didnt follow protocol and say nothing more.

[HamSandwhich]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I am shocked, SHOCKED to think that a neurosurgeon might display hostility towards having his professional judgement questioned.

 

There's a joke:

"How does a neurosurgeon change a lightbulb?"

"He holds it up, and the world revolves around him"

 

I think anyone in any profession would take umbrage to questioning their profession. 

[LeGOATski]

21 hours ago, Warcodered said:

I don't know why he'd be happy about being investigated.

He said happy to comply and be transparent. He's happy that the compliance and transparency are happening. 

[mannc]

1 minute ago, HamSandwhich said:

I think anyone in any profession would take umbrage to questioning their profession. 

That's not what they're talking about.  Hostility to the investigation means he's not fully cooperating; it doesn't mean he's demonstrating hurt feelings.

[Beck Water]

7 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

I think anyone in any profession would take umbrage to questioning their profession. 

 

*shrug* for many of us, being questioned not only by our own line but by QC, QA, gov agencies, and customers, is a regular part of the job - so much so that we have trainings in how to properly cooperate with investigations.

 

It's not a Good Thing IMO if physicians start feeling their judgement and actions should be beyond question, IF that's part of what went on and is being described as "hostility" here.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Beck Water

[HamSandwhich]

3 minutes ago, mannc said:

That's not what they're talking about.  Hostility to the investigation means he's not fully cooperating; it doesn't mean he's demonstrating hurt feelings.

Tomatoes/tomatas, two sides to the same coin etc. what’s the difference? I’m sure he didn’t want to cooperate and made it difficult because he did not like they were questioning his professionalism, no? 

[The Wiz]

29 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, so the sequence went something like:

Trainer: "Tua, you showed gross motor instability so you're gonna get evaluated for concussion"

[Concussion evaluation - Tua passes]

UNC: "OK, but you should be ruled out anyway, because gross motor instability..."

Team Doctor: "Nope, his gross motor instability was due to an earlier back injury being aggravated"

UNC: "My job here is done! Go forth and play football!"

 

??

 

See, I thought the player had to actually complete baseline testing that takes significant time and involves multiple questions, and that the INC had to watch the game film himself.

 

 

This is what everyone knows and no one is saying.  Both the UNC and team doctor cleared Tua from concussion (per Peter King on WGR today) but for some reason the UNC is getting kicked in the teeth over it and have not heard a single talking head ask "why is the team doctor off the hook when the investigation showed that the UNC made mistakes?"

 

NFL pushing blame away from the team and themselves.

Edited October 4, 2022 by The Wiz

[ehfeuh57]

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

That's not what they're talking about.  Hostility to the investigation means he's not fully cooperating; it doesn't mean he's demonstrating hurt feelings.

 

You don't know that as we don't have enough information in that tweet.

 

It could just as easily be that he answered every question honestly but in a hostile fashion.

[HamSandwhich]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

*shrug* for many of us, being questioned not only by our own line but by QC, QA, gov agencies, and customers, is a regular part of the job - so much so that we have trainings in how to properly cooperate with investigations.

 

It's not a Good Thing IMO if physicians start feeling they should be beyond question, IF that's part of what went on here.

Believe me, I know what you’re talking about being the HR manager over 2 hospitals. However, when they come and do their oversight, they never let out why they are doing it or who is at center of the investigation. They snoop around and we have to figure it out. I’m sure the neurologist knew exactly why they were questioning him 

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

*shrug* for many of us, being questioned not only by our own line but by QC, QA, gov agencies, and customers, is a regular part of the job - so much so that we have trainings in how to properly cooperate with investigations.

 

It's not a Good Thing IMO if physicians start feeling their judgement and actions should be beyond question, IF that's part of what went on and is being described as "hostility" here.

Also, I do agree it’s not always a good thing for people to be high and mighty about their judgement. 

[Captain Caveman]

4 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

This is what everyone knows and no one is saying.  Both the UNC and team doctor cleared Tua from concussion (per Peter King on WGR today) but for some reason the UNC is getting kicked in the teeth over it and have not heard a single talking head ask "why is the team doctor off the hook when the investigation showed that the UNC made mistakes?"

 

NFL pushing blame away from the team and themselves.

 

The Team Doctor may still face some reprimand, but the UNC's whole role there is to be independent and protect the player from himself, and they obviously failed.  That, and the NFLPA doesn't have any authority to fire the team Dr., they can only do that to the UNC.

[HamSandwhich]

6 minutes ago, DrDare said:

 

You don't know that as we don't have enough information in that tweet.

 

It could just as easily be that he answered every question honestly but in a hostile fashion.

Loud noises?

[mannc]

8 minutes ago, DrDare said:

 

You don't know that as we don't have enough information in that tweet.

 

It could just as easily be that he answered every question honestly but in a hostile fashion.

I agree we don't have much information, but hostility to the investigation usually means he's not fully cooperating or making it unnecessarily difficult for the investigators.  

[The Wiz]

11 minutes ago, Captain Caveman said:

 

The Team Doctor may still face some reprimand, but the UNC's whole role there is to be independent and protect the player from himself, and they obviously failed.  That, and the NFLPA doesn't have any authority to fire the team Dr., they can only do that to the UNC.

Agree on all of that.   My point still stands that both had to clear him. 

 

Both did. But the UNC gets the brunt of it and no one is asking "why did the Dolphins doc clear him" or "if the UNC made mistakes, why is the Dolphins medical professional not being held to the same standards when both agreed he was fine?"

[Captain Caveman]

1 minute ago, The Wiz said:

no one is asking "why did the Dolphins doc clear him" or "if the UNC made mistakes, why is the Dolphins medical professional not being held to the same standards when both agreed he was fine?"

 

I don't think no one is asking this, there is an ongoing investigation.  There is a difference in their responsibilities though, with the UNC's only role there to be to protect the player from himself and the team.

[Rochesterfan]

28 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

This is what everyone knows and no one is saying.  Both the UNC and team doctor cleared Tua from concussion (per Peter King on WGR today) but for some reason the UNC is getting kicked in the teeth over it and have not heard a single talking head ask "why is the team doctor off the hook when the investigation showed that the UNC made mistakes?"

 

NFL pushing blame away from the team and themselves.

 

Because the NFLPA can not do anything to the team doctor - only the Dolphins can reprimand him.  
 

On the other hand - the NFLPA has the right to fire the UNC - although the NFLPA could not provide examples of mistakes and stated he was confrontational as the reason he was fired.

 

Sounds to me like they just scapegoated him.

 

 

[The Wiz]

1 hour ago, Captain Caveman said:

 

I don't think no one is asking this, there is an ongoing investigation.  There is a difference in their responsibilities though, with the UNC's only role there to be to protect the player from himself and the team.

I get they are doing an investigation.  The problem is it's the NFLPA doing it.  Not the NFL.  The other point was why isn't every talking head asking the question I did.  It's pretty reasonable of a question even if they are suppose to side with the NFL.

 

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Because the NFLPA can not do anything to the team doctor - only the Dolphins can reprimand him.  
 

On the other hand - the NFLPA has the right to fire the UNC - although the NFLPA could not provide examples of mistakes and stated he was confrontational as the reason he was fired.

 

Sounds to me like they just scapegoated him.

 

 

and I get the NFLPA cant do anything to the team.  But the NFL needs to ask the question "why did you clear him" while the the NFLPA found the UNC has been making mistakes.  If the NFLPA is claiming "several mistakes" in this one instance then there is no reason that the team doctor should have agreed with him and should also be investigated by the NFL.

[benderbender]

Just coming back to check on the “there couldn’t possibly be any wrong doing because it’s specifically someone’s job to prevent this” crowd. Faith in the system overriding common sense is something of a theme since 2020 in general, it’s weird to see it penetrate sports so visibly. 

[aristocrat]

Aj hawk was talking about how guys will dumb down their baseline test before the season starts to make it easier to play. He said he knew a guy who played hero on his baseline and after 3 weeks of no symptoms he couldn’t pass his baseline. They had to send him to an outside doc or something to clear him.  I’d imagine the league changes these baseline tests so guys don’t fudge them. 

[boyst]

9 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

Aj hawk was talking about how guys will dumb down their baseline test before the season starts to make it easier to play. He said he knew a guy who played hero on his baseline and after 3 weeks of no symptoms he couldn’t pass his baseline. They had to send him to an outside doc or something to clear him.  I’d imagine the league changes these baseline tests so guys don’t fudge them. 

i can't figure out who that was - had to have been with the panthers.

 

at first i thought he was talking about keuchly.

[Saint Doug]

13 hours ago, Captain Caveman said:

 

The Team Doctor may still face some reprimand, but the UNC's whole role there is to be independent and protect the player from himself, and they obviously failed.  That, and the NFLPA doesn't have any authority to fire the team Dr., they can only do that to the UNC.

Iirc, the independent UNC does not make the decision whether a player can return to the game. That’s up to the team trainers. So, I don’t know exactly how he failed. 

[aristocrat]

13 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

i can't figure out who that was - had to have been with the panthers.

 

at first i thought he was talking about keuchly.

Well I’m assuming it was someone on the packers or bengals where he finished. Didn’t he say it was a teammate? 

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

Well I’m assuming it was someone on the packers or bengals where he finished. Didn’t he say it was a teammate? 

yeah - but he started in carolina with keuchly. there was also Shaq someone - an LB there - who was out for some time with concussions.

[aristocrat]

Just now, Boyst62 said:

yeah - but he started in carolina with keuchly. there was also Shaq someone - an LB there - who was out for some time with concussions.

Aj hawk was drafted by the packers. Played like one year with the bengals. Are you thinking of aj Klein?

[Captain Caveman]

25 minutes ago, Saint Doug said:

Iirc, the independent UNC does not make the decision whether a player can return to the game. That’s up to the team trainers. So, I don’t know exactly how he failed. 

 

The team doctor makes the final determination, but they are not likely to go against the UNC.  In this case, the UNC should have held him out, the team doctor would be putting their own career in jeopardy going against them.

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Agree on all of that.   My point still stands that both had to clear him. 

 

Both did. But the UNC gets the brunt of it and no one is asking "why did the Dolphins doc clear him" or "if the UNC made mistakes, why is the Dolphins medical professional not being held to the same standards when both agreed he was fine?"

 

Follow the "Fate Control" and the money.  The UNC contracts state that either the NFL or the NFLPA can fire a UNC without agreement from the other party.

 

So the UNC is a "sitting duck" for action.

 

Regardless of the questions being asked (and I'm sure they're being asked) the Dolphins team controls the Dolphins team doctor and head trainer and only the Dolphins can fire him.

 

19 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

yeah - but he started in carolina with keuchly. there was also Shaq someone - an LB there - who was out for some time with concussions.

 

?

 

Wrong AJ

 

You thinking of AJ Klein, "Coach Klein".

 

Hawk was a first round pick of the Packers and played with them 9 years -  a 9 year stretch when they consistently had one of the top Ds in the country

Edited October 5, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

49 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

Aj hawk was talking about how guys will dumb down their baseline test before the season starts to make it easier to play. He said he knew a guy who played hero on his baseline and after 3 weeks of no symptoms he couldn’t pass his baseline. They had to send him to an outside doc or something to clear him.  I’d imagine the league changes these baseline tests so guys don’t fudge them. 

 

LOL I think that was John Urschel, Ravens OLman turned MIT mathematics grad student.

 

He commented in an article about him how he "must have been having a good day" when he took his baseline test because he got a concussion in preseason and it took him 3 weeks to pass it and come back.

 

I think some guys do dumb down the baseline, but that's foolish of them IMHO.  I think that's what Morse meant when he said he wasn't concerned about concussion because he was doing things "the right way". 

 

On the other hand, you don't want the baseline test to reflect your very best self you would struggle to match just on an ordinary day where you were a bit tired or stressed out.

[transient]

15 hours ago, mannc said:

I agree we don't have much information, but hostility to the investigation usually means he's not fully cooperating or making it unnecessarily difficult for the investigators.  

Or it could mean the investigators were asking transparently pointed questions designed to lay blame, justly or unjustly, at the feet of the UNC and as a result the answers they received contained an element of hostility.

[4merper4mer]

18 hours ago, HamSandwhich said:

That actor is a damn good actor when it comes to creepy shows. I don’t even know who it is but when he’s in it, I know it will be well played. 

He played Michael Scott’s nephew in an episode of The Office.

[HamSandwhich]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

He played Michael Scott’s nephew in an episode of The Office.

That’s right, forgot about that! Did that well too

[BillsNutHawaii]

Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa is being encouraged to immediately retire.

 

On a side note, he's from my neighborhood here in Hawaii, (Ewa Beach), so I tend to track him - in case the skeptics think I'm a Dolphins fan in disguise. 

 

Details in the following link.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/tua-tagovailoa-retire-nfl-concussion-doctor-says

[Success]

I mean, that would really suck if he's right about that.   I hope he's not, but health should always come first.