D-Line rotation question

[Don Otreply]

Does anyone here think that the continuous rotation of D-Line players prevents them from getting into a groove so to speak, during games?

 

   I’m thinking about how some teams leave their main guy or guys in for a higher percentage of snaps than we do, the Rams & Donald as an example,  and does anyone think it might help the D-Line get home (sacks)  more frequently?
 

   I tend to believe QB knock downs & sacks screws with a QBs performance far more than “ pressures” do. 
 

enlighten me if I m off base in my thinking,  thanks, 

 

Go Bills!!!

[MrEpsYtown]

I don’t think the rotation is the issue, it’s the quality of the players. Ed Oliver should not come off the field. But outside of that, who really deserves more snaps? Maybe Rousseau?

 

I think it is a philosophical thing, I guess the idea is having fresh guys wearing out the offensive line. I don’t think it has really worked, but until we have better defensive linemen, I think it is hard to really say. 
 

Also, what makes a difference for the Rams is they move guys around and give exotic looks. If you can get Donald on the opposing teams worst linemen, that makes sense. Out scheme is quite stringent and a little vanilla. We are going to be in a 4-2-5 alignment, with contain defensive ends, and really never twist etc. As the year went on, we saw  less and less of the double A gap mug defense, and that is the only alignment that really gives us an exotic package. 
 

When your players are meh, it makes sense to rotate them and keep them fresh, but there is something to be said for the idea you mention, that this doesn’t allow guys to really get into the flow of the game. 

[machine gun kelly]

It’s a cornerstone of his defense.  He is consistent with his 4-2-5, keeps the 2-5 out there almost all the time with maybe a swap at big nickel every once in awhile.  Nothing we say will ever change that tenet of his defense.  He believes having 8 in a rotation with some of the guys are getting 60-65% of the snaps.  It’s not a true 50/50.

[vincec]

 

8 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

It’s a cornerstone of his defense.  He is consistent with his 4-2-5, keeps the 2-5 out there almost all the time with maybe a swap at big nickel every once in awhile.  Nothing we say will ever change that tenet of his defense.  He believes having 8 in a rotation with some of the guys are getting 60-65% of the snaps.  It’s not a true 50/50.

Based on the snap counts I could online find no defensive lineman got even 60% of the snaps. Ed Oliver was the highest at 58% and only he and Hughes were over 50%. If this is correct then I think that is too even a split. Oliver, at least, should actually be getting closer to 65% as you indicate, IMO.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2021-snap-counts.htm

Edited February 24, 2022 by vincec

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

I would prefer to stick with the hot hand. If Ed Oliver is getting consistent pressure, then keep him in there until he gets tired. Make players earn their pass-rushing reps instead of arbitrarily splitting them.

[Don Otreply]

Good replies, I do understand that SM isn’t ever going to change his D theories, I’m mostly trying to get a feel of youz guyz thinking on this. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[SWATeam]

I think there is something to be said for getting into a groove and being able to setup moves throughout the course of the game.

[BuffaloBillyG]

One thing of note..

 

As the season progressed there was a definitive shift in snap count, particularly inside. Ed and Phillips were getting nearly double the snaps as Star and whomever else was active those games. The number jumped even further when you look when the snaps occurred (early vs. late with the game decided). 

 

Not sure if this represents a new philosophy or coaching realizing how drastic the drop in play when the 2nds were in.

[Don Otreply]

5 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

One thing of note..

 

As the season progressed there was a definitive shift in snap count, particularly inside. Ed and Phillips were getting nearly double the snaps as Star and whomever else was active those games. The number jumped even further when you look when the snaps occurred (early vs. late with the game decided). 

 

Not sure if this represents a new philosophy or coaching realizing how drastic the drop in play when the 2nds were in.

SM has always said he is willing to learn and adapt, fingers crossed 🤞 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Yes and no.

 

I think for our vets like Star, Mario, and Hughes it’s huge, but it can be bad for the young guns who just need reps.

[Motor26]

Oliver should be on the field as much as he is able to be. He is the most effective lineman by far and it’s not close.

[LABILLBACKER]

Not a fan of the DL rotation. If we actually had an all pro or elite Dlineman we wouldn't be bringing him out other than the occassional rest.  This upcoming season I want to see Ed & Groot get way more snaps. And if we can miraculously land a big name pass rusher, we better let him play 70%+ of the snaps. Bring in AJE or Boogie only as depth.

 

Identify your best players and play them.

Edited February 24, 2022 by LABILLBACKER

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

Rotation makes sense if you have enough competent players to make the substitutions and maintain a decent level of performance.  D-linemen generally expend more energy than most other positions on the field.  Their effectiveness drops off the longer that they are on the field.  I understand and mostly agree with the approach that McD employs.  Where he loses me is when he brings in the backups to start a defensive series after the Bills' offense has been on field for a decent amount of time.  The starters have been sitting on the bench and could not possibly be tired.  

[Doc Brown]

Charles Johnson and Greg Hardy were heavily utilized under McDermott.  We just don't have the horses right now.  Beane's struck out in both free agency and the draft when it comes to DE.

[atlbillsfan1975]

2 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

SM has always said he is willing to learn and adapt, fingers crossed 🤞 

If you go back and look at his time in Carolina as DC, when he had elite players on the line they played 70%+ of the snaps. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by atlbillsfan1975

[LABILLBACKER]

1 minute ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

If you go back and look at this time in Carolina as DC, when he had elite players on the line they played 70%+ of the snaps. 

Oh I have no doubt once he gets a better pass rusher,  he'll scrub this rotation. 

[Malazan]

2 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

SM has always said he is willing to learn and adapt, fingers crossed 🤞 

 

This is the classic example of a fallacy. The belief that simply upping the snap count would improve the performance of the players on the same players is false. It could make them worse or put them in situations that they don't succeed. 

 

If the Bills trade for Aaron Donald then yea, he'll play 80% of the snaps. 

[Don Otreply]

30 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

If you go back and look at his time in Carolina as DC, when he had elite players on the line they played 70%+ of the snaps. 

That’s good to hear, thanks👍

[Dkollidas]

I think Oliver will see a jump this season. Hopefully closer to 65%-70% of snaps. As stated above, towards the end of the season that’s what he was getting towards the end of the season and playoffs.

 

Rousseau and Phillips (I think he’ll be brought back) should be getting 50%+ for sure, and for Rousseau I could see him getting closer to 65% just bc of how well he played against the run and can be trusted as a 3-down lineman. 
 

I believe they’ll add a veteran defensive end to lead the end opposite Rousseau, with Epenesa and Basham filling in those spots. Could also see Basham getting some run as a sub for Oliver in certain situations as well. 
 

Overall I think the theory makes sense. Keeps them fresh and let them have more energy. 
 

But with a younger group now you do have to wonder about them wanting to be able to get a feel for how their opposition is blocking them, and just a general feel for each game (similar to when Singletary went from splitting carries with Moss, to becoming the lead back). 
 

Epenesa needs to show signs of life though. He’s the main reason they need to address the position with a veteran. Besides that first Miami game he showed very few signs of taking a step. He’s still a young player (Rousseau is VERY young, and raw as well). But I believe if they want to take this defense to the next level they need an impact pass rusher. I hope that can be Rousseau, but I’m wondering if it’ll need to be a veteran from outside the organization. 

[Don Otreply]

27 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

This is the classic example of a fallacy. The belief that simply upping the snap count would improve the performance of the players on the same players is false. It could make them worse or put them in situations that they don't succeed. 

 

If the Bills trade for Aaron Donald then yea, he'll play 80% of the snaps. 

Hey now there Malazan, you’re harshing me out, I was asking in good faith, not making a broad brush definitive statement, a nuanced question, looking for a nuanced response. It would appear you feel like we have no one that can handle more reps, and that’s fine and a valid opinion, thanks for your response, 

 

Go Bills!!!

[MrEpsYtown]

12 minutes ago, Dkollidas said:

 

 

Epenesa needs to show signs of life though. He’s the main reason they need to address the position with a veteran. Besides that first Miami game he showed very few signs of taking a step. He’s still a young player (Rousseau is VERY young, and raw as well). But I believe if they want to take this defense to the next level they need an impact pass rusher. I hope that can be Rousseau, but I’m wondering if it’ll need to be a veteran from outside the organization. 

I know it’s obvious but the level of disappointment there is very high. AJ has really done nothing. I wish he could play against Austin Jackson every game, becuase he has his number for some reason. The sliver of hope I have for AJ is that it took him a while to become a starter at Iowa. Which is crazy considering he was a 5 star recruit. Maybe he just takes a long time to get going and adjust. But, unless he foes it this year, he will be a free agent before long. But, he really hadn’t played much and I think we need to transition to a place where some of those Hughes/Addison snaps transition to the younger guys. 
 

I think the upside Rousseau carries is so much higher than anybody on the roster. I really love Cameron Thomas in the draft. Outside of a maybe trade for Mack, I am not sure if there are really upgrades out there. The guys we have just have to get better. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

We'll see less of a rotations just based on roster numbers. Last year we had 6 DE's that got legitimate snaps. We won't have that many this year.

 

At DT I would like to see Ed Oliver get the majority of the snaps. Then rotate next to him. 

[CSBill]

I have no strong opinion about the rotation, other than I would like to see Ed Oliver on the field more.

 

But, one player that gets overlooked and his injury last year made a difference is Justin Zimmer. He has quietly become one of the most consistent interior d-line players. Having him back next year improves the line, even if no other changes are made. To me, he is the Ryan Bates of the Defense in that all he does when given the opportunities is play well. Maybe not flashy, but productive.

[vincec]

39 minutes ago, CSBill said:

I have no strong opinion about the rotation, other than I would like to see Ed Oliver on the field more.

 

But, one player that gets overlooked and his injury last year made a difference is Justin Zimmer. He has quietly become one of the most consistent interior d-line players. Having him back next year improves the line, even if no other changes are made. To me, he is the Ryan Bates of the Defense in that all he does when given the opportunities is play well. Maybe not flashy, but productive.

I have generally enjoyed his performance on the field, but he’s going to be 30 years old this season and is coming off a major knee injury, so I would be shocked if he improves beyond what he has been- a backup level player.

[bmur66]

I can't think of many dominating 4th quarter performances by our "fresh" defensive line as evidence that this "rotation" theory is valid. IMO an offense that can control the clock and keep the D off the field would be better.

[Manther]

9 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

If you go back and look at his time in Carolina as DC, when he had elite players on the line they played 70%+ of the snaps. 

That is good to hear.  

12 hours ago, vincec said:

 

Based on the snap counts I could online find no defensive lineman got even 60% of the snaps. Ed Oliver was the highest at 58% and only he and Hughes were over 50%. If this is correct then I think that is too even a split. Oliver, at least, should actually be getting closer to 65% as you indicate, IMO.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2021-snap-counts.htm

Thanks for the info.  Is that for the entire year?  I would guess and think that Ed Oliver's first half of the year vs 2nd half of the year had different snap counts.  Can you break it down that way?

 

Thanks!

[DonInBuffalo]

To point out the obvious, the defensive coaches review game film every week and grade all the players.

I think it's safe to say the players that grade out better wind up getting more snaps in future games.

If the number of snaps is roughly the same, apparently those players have been grading out fairly evenly over recent games.

 

Here's another site with snap counts that may be in a more convenient format.   Some positions are missing, but all the DL is listed.

 

https://www.footballguys.com/stats/snap-counts/teams?team=BUF&year=2021

[pennstate10]

Some of Yinz are asking about a “theory” that it’s a good idea to rotate DL and give them a blow 

 

it’s not a theory, it’s a fact. 
All NFL and high level CFB teams rotate DL. LB CB Safeties QB WR OL are not rotated like DL are. This is a fact, not a theory. For reasons that should be obvious DL is the single most tiring position to play in football thus the rotation. 
 

the real question is how much to rotate these guys. 50-50 is probably not a good answer. If you have outstanding players in top shape you might shoot for 80-20. As Oliver and Groot improves they might hit 30-70 next year. 

[Patrick Duffy]

10 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

We'll see less of a rotations just based on roster numbers. Last year we had 6 DE's that got legitimate snaps. We won't have that many this year.

 

At DT I would like to see Ed Oliver get the majority of the snaps. Then rotate next to him. 

Just wanted to add that I believe we will see more of H. Phillips next season also. Seemed like he improved and was making enough plays that could get him more snaps.

[Don Otreply]

51 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

Some of Yinz are asking about a “theory” that it’s a good idea to rotate DL and give them a blow 

 

it’s not a theory, it’s a fact. 
All NFL and high level CFB teams rotate DL. LB CB Safeties QB WR OL are not rotated like DL are. This is a fact, not a theory. For reasons that should be obvious DL is the single most tiring position to play in football thus the rotation. 
 

the real question is how much to rotate these guys. 50-50 is probably not a good answer. If you have outstanding players in top shape you might shoot for 80-20. As Oliver and Groot improves they might hit 30-70 next year. 

I can agree with your sentiments, 😁👍

[DrDawkinstein]

59 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Just wanted to add that I believe we will see more of H. Phillips next season also. Seemed like he improved and was making enough plays that could get him more snaps.

 

IF he re-signs.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Just wanted to add that I believe we will see more of H. Phillips next season also. Seemed like he improved and was making enough plays that could get him more snaps.

Phillips was doing more snaps than Oliver as the season went on. 

41 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

IF he re-signs.

We're going to be shocked at his number. I'm going to guess 7+ million per year.

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Phillips was doing more snaps than Oliver as the season went on. 

We're going to be shocked at his number. I'm going to guess 7+ million per year.

 

Happier to give that amount to Phillips than Vernon Butler.

[Patrick Duffy]

45 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

IF he re-signs.

I think it's highly likely he will.....

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Happier to give that amount to Phillips than Vernon Butler.

I agree. I've always liked Phillips. It took him some time to return from the injury.

[Patrick Duffy]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I agree. I've always liked Phillips. It took him some time to return from the injury.

Yeah and was noticeable he seemed to get some solid pressure on QB's and also got in the backfield here and there taking down RB's. He looked quite a bit improved to me. Hope he stays healthy all of next season

[Rockinon]

5 hours ago, DonInBuffalo said:

To point out the obvious, the defensive coaches review game film every week and grade all the players.

I think it's safe to say the players that grade out better wind up getting more snaps in future games.

If the number of snaps is roughly the same, apparently those players have been grading out fairly evenly over recent games.

 

Here's another site with snap counts that may be in a more convenient format.   Some positions are missing, but all the DL is listed.

 

https://www.footballguys.com/stats/snap-counts/teams?team=BUF&year=2021

Good point. It seems to me that the defensive alignment rarely changing also makes it easier to grade individual players. I almost wish the defense would throw some more wrinkles in. Mix things up more. There is talent on the DLine. I think the coaches should allow the boys a little leeway to run some more exotic looks. Have a hunch it would be effective because these guys are rotating and staying fresh. It also puts pressure on the offense because they will have to be prepared for some new coming. To me, it just seems that the coaches are keeping the DLinemen in predictable alignments and not changing things up.