OT: Are you concerned about Mac Jones?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

 

Well, at least we have unambiguous clarity on what Narrative ESPN will be pushing

 

I want to give Mac Jones his propers.  He's doing what he's asked to do.  He understands enough about what he's seeing to put the ball in the right place.  He has the support of a strong defense, a decent OL, and a good run game.  Intangibles and from the neck up "the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback"?  

 

Pitch me with a fork, man, that's beyond "gag me with a spoon"

 

[Success]

Watching Mac yesterday, it's pretty clear what he can do, and what he can't do.

 

I don't think he'll ever come close to taking over a game like Brady & the best do.  And the athleticism/escapability will be a major liability with even a good O-line (the Pats right now have one of the best).  He would likely have twice as many sacks taken as Allen if he started behind this Bills line.

 

He's smart, and goes through his progressions - which is big for a young QB.  

 

He's a great QB for Belichick.  Perfect for how he gameplans, and they can win a lot of games w/ that combo. Once BB moves on? Probably not nearly as much of a threat.  It wouldn't shock me if we were more concerned about Wilson in the division at that point.

 

Enough of the hype, though.  There is nothing too special about him, except that he plays for the best coach.

 

[RobbRiddick]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, at least we have unambiguous clarity on what Narrative ESPN will be pushing

 

I want to give Mac Jones his propers.  He's doing what he's asked to do.  He understands enough about what he's seeing to put the ball in the right place.  He has the support of a strong defense, a decent OL, and a good run game.  Intangibles and from the neck up "the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback"?  

 

Pitch me with a fork, man, that's beyond "gag me with a spoon"

 

Just more click bait crap. These hot takes and over reactions are getting funnier and funnier. Jones is playing very well, but as soon as he has a couple of bad games in a row they'll all be dumping on him.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

I've been concerned by Mac Jones since the day he was drafted in our division. He seemed too perfect of a fit for that team. Accuracy is THE most important thing for a QB and that happens to be his best trait. #1 all time in the FBS in completion percentage. He's also got a stronger arm than people think. People here just dismissed him because he went to Alabama. When are people going to learn that school doesn't matter? You would think after drafting a Wyoming QB that people would realize that.

 

Yes, Mac Jones is here to stay. I'm not a Patriots fan, I'm a realistic Bills fan. I'm not saying he's going to become elite, but it's certainly possible.

 

Floor = Kirk Cousins/Chad Pennington

 

Ceiling = Drew Brees (if he somehow puts it all together, but I give it a 10% chance of happening.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

Just more click bait crap. These hot takes and over reactions are getting funnier and funnier. Jones is playing very well, but as soon as he has a couple of bad games in a row they'll all be dumping on him.

 

People keep waiting for that bad game and it hasn't happened. I certainly have. Patriots are winning and Jones is an integral part of that. They're a half a game behind us. Does that not worry you? 

 

We got lucky w/ Darnold, Tua, and Wilson. Eventually someone's going to hit and I think the Patriots did.

8 hours ago, Negan said:

Nope, especially if you get a lead on him, he would be a cooked goose without a lead 

 

I'm not sure, but I'm looking forward to these Patriots matchups more than anything. Let's see how he handles an elite defense.

[KeLLy1278]

Switching gears ever so slightly but still on topic.  Are all rookie QBs just that bad as of late?  Insipid nothingness?  Check-Down Jones is doing fine but good grief the hype is over the top.  I don’t see anything dynamic about this kid so far.  The game last night was a perfect example of what he has been doing in 2021.  Bubble screen, 5 yard out, throwing it to the RB in the flat, 2 yard crossing patterns and people are jerking him off like he’s the newest member of the hall of fame. On the few times he was sacked last night, he did not even attempt a pass to keep a drive alive (10 yards or over).  Everything was thrown right around the line of scrimmage and the Patsies weren’t playing a juggernaut D.  Are they hiding something?  Anything?  Hoping to make the playoffs before they really open the playbook to page 2?  Maybe.. maybe not but it’s something to watch.  I can’t remember a more cuddled QB.  

[BillsFan130]

4 hours ago, TBBills said:

Wrong

I'm wrong about what?

[Scott7975]

8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

 

and someone questioned me when I said Mac is over hyped.

7 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Jones probably had his worst game last night during the Pats current 5 game win streak but they still put up 25 points in a shut out.

 

Right now PFF has him graded as the best QB in the entire league the last 5 weeks and right up there in other key metrics which is also dispels the game manager myth:

 

 

How does this dispell the game manager "myth."  He is exactly a game manager.  You have done nothing to show otherwise.  You just keep posting that he isnt cus PFF.

[BillsFan130]

6 hours ago, TBBills said:

Wrong

I mean, you give me a thumbs down. I said the Bills statistically are not a good tackling team.

 

So I am asking you what did I say that is wrong?

 

The D is amazing, I am not saying otherwise.

 

But they have never been a good tackling team with MCD. That;s a fact

[Scott7975]

20 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I mean, you give me a thumbs down. I said the Bills statistically are not a good tackling team.

 

So I am asking you what did I say that is wrong?

 

The D is amazing, I am not saying otherwise.

 

But they have never been a good tackling team with MCD. That;s a fact

 

They can't be that bad at tackling this year.  They have the fewest YACatch against in the league.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/opp.htm

 

They are tied for 14th in missed tackles though.  I thought maybe rushing here but they are 4th best in the league in YPCarry against.  Doesnt make much sense to me.  Maybe they have a lot of missed solo tackles but are fast at swarming for the gang tackle.  In any case being 4th best at YPCarry against and have the least amount of YACatch in the passing game tells me the tackling can't be all that bad.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Scott7975

[BillsFan130]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

They can't be that bad at tackling this year.  They have the fewest YACatch against in the league.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/opp.htm

 

They are tied for 14th in missed tackles though.  I thought maybe rushing here but they are 4th best in the league in YPCarry against.  Doesnt make much sense to me.  Maybe they have a lot of missed solo tackles but are fast at swarming for the gang tackle.  In any case being 4th best at YPCarry against and have the least amount of YACatch in the passing game tells me the tackling can't be all that bad.

Oh are they 14th? They must have improved the last few weeks as I believe Joe Marino said they were bottom 5 around the Titans game. (And they were historically bad under MCD before this season)

 

Thank you for the insight.

Edited November 20, 2021 by BillsFan130

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

and someone questioned me when I said Mac is over hyped.

 

  With that tid-bit, we must consider you fully validated on that point.

 

29 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

They can't be that bad at tackling this year.  They have the fewest YACatch against in the league.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/opp.htm

 

They are tied for 14th in missed tackles though.  I thought maybe rushing here but they are 4th best in the league in YPCarry against.  Doesnt make much sense to me.  Maybe they have a lot of missed solo tackles but are fast at swarming for the gang tackle.  In any case being 4th best at YPCarry against and have the least amount of YACatch in the passing game tells me the tackling can't be all that bad.

 

I think you got it.  The Bills have been doing a good job of swarming to the ball (at least in some of their games)

[Bruce Smith]

13 hours ago, KingBoots8 said:

Well that’s a relief, because he doesn’t do much as it is. 207 yards and a TD/INT like he did Thursday won’t beat Buffalo.

 

Recently he had less than 140 yards vs Carolina, less than 200 vs the Browns, and put up a goose egg against the Chargers - the only reputable team NE has faced over the last 5 weeks. The only reason NE is doing well is the defense. 

This is a homer take.  Have you seen the winning percentage of our schedule?  We played cream puffs too.  And when we played good physical teams we lost.  NE defense is physical.  They can run the ball better than we can.  So Jones does not have to do too much.  I think this board has a bit too much bias and cannot see the obvious.  The Bills must win this game against Indy to have any shot at the number one seed and winning the AFC East.  With two games next month against NE we cannot afford any more slip ups.  

[billsbackto81]

More concerned about their defense and run game. All of which are the major contributors to Jones' development. 

 

His intelligence and accuracy are impressive. His arm strength, mobility and running ability are not.

12 minutes ago, Bruce Smith said:

This is a homer take.  Have you seen the winning percentage of our schedule?  We played cream puffs too.  And when we played good physical teams we lost.  NE defense is physical.  They can run the ball better than we can.  So Jones does not have to do too much.  I think this board has a bit too much bias and cannot see the obvious.  The Bills must win this game against Indy to have any shot at the number one seed and winning the AFC East.  With two games next month against NE we cannot afford any more slip ups.  

Spot on!

[Sundancer]

12 hours ago, KeLLy1278 said:

Switching gears ever so slightly but still on topic.  Are all rookie QBs just that bad as of late?  Insipid nothingness?  Check-Down Jones is doing fine but good grief the hype is over the top.  I don’t see anything dynamic about this kid so far.  The game last night was a perfect example of what he has been doing in 2021.  Bubble screen, 5 yard out, throwing it to the RB in the flat, 2 yard crossing patterns and people are jerking him off like he’s the newest member of the hall of fame. On the few times he was sacked last night, he did not even attempt a pass to keep a drive alive (10 yards or over).  Everything was thrown right around the line of scrimmage and the Patsies weren’t playing a juggernaut D.  Are they hiding something?  Anything?  Hoping to make the playoffs before they really open the playbook to page 2?  Maybe.. maybe not but it’s something to watch.  I can’t remember a more cuddled QB.  

The 2021 Bengals and Chargers would like a word. 

[UKBillFan]

Jones on his own I’m not worried about, Jones and Belichick together I am as they’re almost made for each other. Plus they have a strong defense and one of the best OL’s. Put Josh on the New England roster and they’d be Super Bowl favourite whilst Jones, for us, would probably spend most of his time being sacked.

[Bruce Smith]

Just heard this on the Ringer podcast: 

 

 

 

"The Bills have faced the easiest schedule in the league in terms of opposing DVOA offensively and defensively. It's equivalent to playing the Falcons every week thus far"

 

That is why I am worried.  NE has faced better teams and their D is playing lights out.  Jones also has faced better teams and played well for a rookie.  The meat of the Bills schedule is coming and I have a sense that Allen and the D won't be as good as they look now.  It is all a facade of an easy schedule.  

 

More proof:  NE destroyed the Jets putting up over 50 with a rookie QB.  Did Allen put over 50 with 260 million dollar contract and several years of experience with better WR's?  

 

Let us no delude ourselves boys.  This is a dogfight now.  

Edited November 20, 2021 by Bruce Smith

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Bruce Smith said:

Just heard this on the Ringer podcast: 

 

 

 

"The Bills have faced the easiest schedule in the league in terms of opposing DVOA offensively and defensively. It's equivalent to playing the Falcons every week thus far"

 

Well, DVOA is one of those Frankenstatistics I don't understand, although I know a lot of people like it. 

 

Perhaps I am influenced by Aaron Schatz calling Josh Allen a "parody of a first round pick" or words to that effect, and one of his disciples saying that if Allen succeeded in the NFL it would go against "math itself" or words to that effect, but fundamentally when someone calls something a statistic but can't readily explain the exact formula and how it's derived, I say "put a hand over your wallet".

 

The bottom line is that the Bills had a convincing win over the team that is currently leading the AFC west, lost very close games to the team that is currently pulling away from the pack in the AFC (the Titans) and to another team in playoff contention (the Steelers), beat the living bear fat out of a bunch of bad teams we should have beaten the living bear fat out of (Jets, Dolphins x 2, Texans, WFT) and inexplicably stalled on offense and lost to a very bad football team we really should have beaten.

 

You play who you play - the teams on your schedule.  We aren't looking like the class of the AFC at this point, but all the finger-pointing and wailing seems just as unwarranted as all the "can anyone stop the Bills?" "Superbowl bound!" hype that was flying around after we beat the Chiefs.

 

We are who we are, and that's a good team with some flaws to overcome, learning to mentally handle the unfamiliar position of being favored to win rather than the lovable underdogs.  It's harder to stay "humble and hungry" in the former position.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, at least we have unambiguous clarity on what Narrative ESPN will be pushing

 

I want to give Mac Jones his propers.  He's doing what he's asked to do.  He understands enough about what he's seeing to put the ball in the right place.  He has the support of a strong defense, a decent OL, and a good run game.  Intangibles and from the neck up "the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback"?  

 

Pitch me with a fork, man, that's beyond "gag me with a spoon"

 

😕 what does

 

Pitch me with a fork mean?

 😆 

 

TBH it’s not just ESPN, but yeah they are gushing.  
 

I joked about Tua but I don’t see a lot of WOW me moments in the replays I’ve seen.
 

GMFB did a spot on them today 

awaiting the tweet 

 

 

Game manager, relies on the run game, but will not take the AFCE 

[Thurman#1]

On 11/17/2021 at 2:36 PM, Dr.Sack said:

Captain Checkdown. Shutdown the run, watch for WR screen on early downs, and RB screen on 3rd and long. Get a lead, then pummel that Alabama boy. 

 

 

As the season passes, he starts to work longer passes. For a rookie he's doing really well. Most rookies start with a bit of a Captain Checkdown mentality, if they're smart. Jones isn't giving up the longer targets for short ones less and less.

 

 

On 11/17/2021 at 2:36 PM, Dr.Sack said:

Captain Checkdown. Shutdown the run, watch for WR screen on early downs, and RB screen on 3rd and long. Get a lead, then pummel that Alabama boy. 

 

 

As the season passes, he starts to work longer passes. For a rookie he's doing really well. Most rookies start with a bit of a Captain Checkdown mentality, if they're smart. Jones isn't giving up the longer targets for short ones less and less.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, at least we have unambiguous clarity on what Narrative ESPN will be pushing

 

I want to give Mac Jones his propers.  He's doing what he's asked to do.  He understands enough about what he's seeing to put the ball in the right place.  He has the support of a strong defense, a decent OL, and a good run game.  Intangibles and from the neck up "the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback"?  

 

Pitch me with a fork, man, that's beyond "gag me with a spoon"

 

 

 

 

Come on, Hap, disagreeing with him makes total sense, but at least correctly represent what he's saying.

 

You say, "Intangibles and from the neck up 'the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback'"? But that's not what he said.

 

He said, "Mac Jones has some stuff in him, some intangibles, that I think are maybe the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback. ... From neck up, I don't know if we've ever seen a rookie that is better."

 

There's still a lot there to disagree with. But let's not distort the message as so many do on here before they attack some point.

 

Let's also not pretend that ESPN is pushing this. It's just some guy on ESPN.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, DVOA is one of those Frankenstatistics I don't understand, although I know a lot of people like it. 

 

Perhaps I am influenced by Aaron Schatz calling Josh Allen a "parody of a first round pick" or words to that effect, and one of his disciples saying that if Allen succeeded in the NFL it would go against "math itself" or words to that effect, but fundamentally when someone calls something a statistic but can't readily explain the exact formula and how it's derived, I say "put a hand over your wallet".

 

 

They do explain it on the site, in exhaustive detail. And what it's useful for and what it's not so useful for.

 

I agree that opaque stats make me wonder too. I still don't think much of ESPN's QB stat, QBR, for just that reason.

 

And DVOA does say that the Bills opponents are weak. Could anyone disagree? It also has the Bills as the #1 team in DVOA. And DVOA adjusts for strength of opponent.

 

Certainly Schatz was wrong about Allen. He has admitted it.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Come on, Hap, disagreeing with him makes total sense, but at least correctly represent what he's saying.

 

You say, "Intangibles and from the neck up 'the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback'"? But that's not what he said.

 

He said, "Mac Jones has some stuff in him, some intangibles, that I think are maybe the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback. ... From neck up, I don't know if we've ever seen a rookie that is better."

 

There's still a lot there to disagree with. But let's not distort the message as so many do on here before they attack some point.

 

Let's also not pretend that ESPN is pushing this. It's just some guy on ESPN.

 

Sorry, your distinctions are too fine for me.  Even raising that as a possibility from a rookie after 11 games is "over the top" and I think you know it.

 

Like I said, I'm all for giving Mac Jones his propers that he's playing very well but that's just silly, even with the "maybe" and the "neck up".

 

[Thurman#1]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Sorry, your distinctions are too fine for me.  Even raising that as a possibility from a rookie after 11 games is "over the top" and I think you know it.

 

Like I said, I'm all for giving Mac Jones his propers that he's playing very well but that's just silly, even with the "maybe" and the "neck up".

 

 

 

Oh, please. It's not too fine in any way, Hap, and I know you know it.

 

He put in a bunch of qualifiers and you chose to ignore them.

 

That's not defensible. Again, there's a lot there to disagree with but he did not say what you tried to represent him as saying.

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, Bruce Smith said:

Just heard this on the Ringer podcast: 

 

 

 

"The Bills have faced the easiest schedule in the league in terms of opposing DVOA offensively and defensively. It's equivalent to playing the Falcons every week thus far"

 

That is why I am worried.  NE has faced better teams and their D is playing lights out.  Jones also has faced better teams and played well for a rookie.  The meat of the Bills schedule is coming and I have a sense that Allen and the D won't be as good as they look now.  It is all a facade of an easy schedule.  

 

More proof:  NE destroyed the Jets putting up over 50 with a rookie QB.  Did Allen put over 50 with 260 million dollar contract and several years of experience with better WR's?  

 

Let us no delude ourselves boys.  This is a dogfight now.  

 

Its always a dog fight in the division.  The Pats are a good team.  They just still are not the team of the past.  Also this is another case that looks at a stat in a vacuum.  Although the DVOA says we played the 32 schedule, what wasn't said is the Pats played the 26th schedule (not updated for Falcons yet) which isn't all that much different.  What wasn't said is the Bills rank #1 in DVOA. The Pats currently rank #5.

 

Could we lose to them?  Absolutely.  They are playing just as well as us at this point.  Just differently. Too many people are trying to find ways to say the Bills have no chance without actually saying it though.  Pretty lame to me.  Why do Bills fans purposely try to not believe their team is good when the evidence says otherwise.  Sure, we had two clunkers and a close game loss. And those clunkers were still one score losses. We also had some hefty blowouts.  People want to cry schedule as if to somehow prove the Bills aren't good.  I would buy into that if we were winning those games by our teeth.  We aren't though.  We are blowing them out.

 

Oh well the Pats put up over 50 on the Jets!!!!  Yeah, the Bills put up 45 and still didn't play to their potential.  Whats the difference?  Who cares?  Its not about who played who.  Its about how they will play each other.  I expect a tough game that could go either way and I look forward to it.  I expect our coaching staff to have answers and our team to play good football.  I expect them to find a way to win.  Thats all that matters.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Scott7975

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

[Strethor]

It's really funny to see Pats fans and media immediately link him to be a Brady second coming and that it's over for our regin at the top of the AFCE. It's certainly a good start for him, nothing is guarenteed in this league

[Success]

5 minutes ago, Strethor said:

It's really funny to see Pats fans and media immediately link him to be a Brady second coming and that it's over for our regin at the top of the AFCE. It's certainly a good start for him, nothing is guarenteed in this league

 

They keep making the Brady comparison - both the media and Pats fans.

 

The main comparison is that he's a dink & dunk game manager at this stage of his career, which is what Brady was at a similar time.  And these Pats remind a lot of fans of the 2001 Pats - more defensive oriented, with a QB who doesn't make mistakes and can put a few points on the board.

 

But to go from there to thinking that it's a natural progression to best QB in the league, GOAT and HOF is kind of a stretch.  This may be as good as Mac Jones ever gets (and that was the assessment coming out of college - most pro ready, but lowest ceiling).

 

[Warcodered]

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Warcodered

[Success]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

 

 

The hype is out of control - and it's only because he's a Patriot.

 

Listening to the guys on the Thurs. night broadcast was a chore.  Jones threw that pass to Bourne for the TD - Bourne had no one within 10 yards, and Jones had absolutely no pressure, and it was a short pass - and the way those guys talked you would have thought it was a 50-yarder that threaded the needle between 3 defenders, all while Jones had a blitz right in his face.

 

People are already declaring him the best QB from the draft.

 

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, Bruce Smith said:

"The Bills have faced the easiest schedule in the league in terms of opposing DVOA offensively and defensively. It's equivalent to playing the Falcons every week thus far"

 

That is why I am worried.  NE has faced better teams and their D is playing lights out.  Jones also has faced better teams and played well for a rookie.  The meat of the Bills schedule is coming and I have a sense that Allen and the D won't be as good as they look now.  It is all a facade of an easy schedule.  

 

If you're going to cite DVOA, cite DVOA. The Bills are ranked higher than the Patriots in offense, defense, and special teams. If you want to talk about defenses playing lights out the Bills defense is #1 in DVOA and in a tier of its own.

 

The Patriots are a good balanced team. 5th overall in DVOA which is better than anyone would have predicted (and this is before the Falcons game is factored in). And they have had a harder schedule but they haven't been beating their good opponents. Their above average opponents in DVOA were the Saints, Bucs, and Cowboys... all losses. They've beaten their middling opponents in the Browns, Chargers, and Panthers.

 

The Patriots will not be an easy opponent by any means. We are just better across the board as of right now. If we play like crap against the Colts and/or Saints the picture will become more muddled.

Edited November 20, 2021 by HappyDays

[L Ron Burgundy]

Their game plans are unreal.  Mac is doing this well because of their schemes.  I've watched a few hours of Pat's games and they're scheming him mostly short stuff that's super effective. Beating them will be a test for Frazier imo.  Make adjustments as they do.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Oh, please. It's not too fine in any way, Hap, and I know you know it.

 

He put in a bunch of qualifiers and you chose to ignore them.

 

That's not defensible. Again, there's a lot there to disagree with but he did not say what you tried to represent him as saying.

 

Kindly don't tell me what I think or know.

 

I believe you to be splitting hairs (too fine a point).  That's my opinion.  Deal.

 

With or without the qualifiers, I think it's a ridiculous quote - and this despite my being fully willing to acknowledge that Mac Jones is Doing His Job within the Patriots system and doing it well to date.

 

I have no more to say on the subject.  If you want to puff this up into some sort of position you believe I need to defend, Have a Ball.  You pick the argument, you start the argument, you carry on both sides.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Not worried about Jones but am concerned about Bellycheck scheming a defense against us 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

Not worried about Jones but am concerned about Bellycheck scheming a defense against us

 

Yep.

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Kindly don't tell me what I think or know.

 

I believe you to be splitting hairs (too fine a point).  That's my opinion.  Deal.

 

With or without the qualifiers, I think it's a ridiculous quote - and this despite my being fully willing to acknowledge that Mac Jones is Doing His Job within the Patriots system and doing it well to date.

 

I have no more to say on the subject.  If you want to puff this up into some sort of position you believe I need to defend, Have a Ball.  You pick the argument, you start the argument, you carry on both sides.

 

 

Frankly, that is absolute bull picky. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

 

And what I did is anything but splitting hairs. Not even remotely.

 

What it is is a common and obvious rule for discussion, a rule that makes for infinitely better, smarter, clearer discussion, and that rule is ...

 

 

 

If you're going to attack what a guy says ... then attack what he says. 

 

Don't attack what he did not say.

 

Don't remove parts of his argument and then attack the fact that without the parts you removed his arguments make no sense. And that's what you did here, Hap.

 

Don't distort the argument and then attack the distortions.

 

Don't twist the argument and then attack the fact that it's twisted.

 

 

 

This is simple common sense. This guy didn't say what you said he did. So you misrepresented his argument and then argued that he's wrong in presenting an argument that in fact was created by you, not him.

 

You created a straw man. It happens consistently on these forums. And it is destructive to reasonable discussion.

 

Disagreeing with somebody and saying it ... totally reasonable. Misrepresenting what he said ... completely unreasonable. Degrades discussion.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Thurman#1

[P Riv]

20 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

Not worried about Jones but am concerned about Bellycheck scheming a defense against us 

 

 

 

They look like they have for the last 2 decades, except at QB.  If 12 were back there with this current team we'd be pretty F'd.  

As it stands, we're going to win this Division, no doubt.  

[PatsFanNH]

22 hours ago, Strethor said:

It's really funny to see Pats fans and media immediately link him to be a Brady second coming and that it's over for our regin at the top of the AFCE. It's certainly a good start for him, nothing is guarenteed in this league

I see the team being similar to 2001 in the fact it’s D first, followed by the run game with accurate passing when needed. NOT saying it’s 2001 just the style they are playing is that of Brady first year starting. Which IMO is the best thing for a rookie QB.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

2 hours ago, P Riv said:

 

They look like they have for the last 2 decades, except at QB.  If 12 were back there with this current team we'd be pretty F'd.  

As it stands, we're going to win this Division, no doubt.  

 

But 12 isnt back there and once we upgrade the Oline they wont be a match for us.

 

 

[P Riv]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

But 12 isnt back there and once we upgrade the Oline they wont be a match for us.

 

 

 

I like the confidence, but that upgrading will happen in the offseason.  They upgraded this past offseason, and now have the division lead.  Point being, everybody "upgrades" in the offseason but it only works out for a few teams.  

[Buffalo Barbarian]

1 hour ago, P Riv said:

 

I like the confidence, but that upgrading will happen in the offseason.  They upgraded this past offseason, and now have the division lead.  Point being, everybody "upgrades" in the offseason but it only works out for a few teams.  

 

We didn't upgrade, we signed everybody back , which was a mistake. Absolutely sign Milano but bringing back the offensive line was not smart because they weren't good last year. Also not beefing up the DT position was a mistake

 

 

[Success]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

We didn't upgrade, we signed everybody back , which was a mistake. Absolutely sign Milano but bringing back the offensive line was not smart because they weren't good last year. Also not beefing up the DT position was a mistake

 

 

 

I think once they made some investments in the line, they wanted to believe & stick w/ those guys. But has anyone in that unit met expectations?  I'm not a good evaluator - I just know that the line as a whole is not good.  We had high hopes for some of these guys, like Morse & Dawkins.  Should we just scrap it and start from scratch?

 

No answers here. The only thing that is 100% is that the O-line has to be the top priority in the offseason.