The Patrick Mahomes Super Bowl Debate

[Brennan Huff]

11 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

When did we start giving qbs credit for incomplete passes lol I have honestly never seen anything like this...yea he lobbed up some on target-ish passes that were frequently tipped by bucs defenders or his receivers took shots or gave up on the play because they didn't think they were getting the ball.  When the game mattered every completed pass I can remember was to a comically wide open travis kelce...mahomes did what we all accuse josh allen of and he did it the entire game start to finish...likely because he's never been in that situation before 

lol

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

8 minutes ago, Brennan Huff said:

lol

To clarify i wouldnt say I blame him for the loss at all I just think the supposed greatest quarterback in the history of football couldve done a better job keeping them in the game. He showed some impressive athleticism but he was straight up panicking and not even giving plays a chance late in that game...he was takin snaps and immediately running 20 yards backwards like people did with Michael Vick in the old madden games 🤣 maybe Andy Reid wasn't calling plays to alleviate the pass blocking issue and its all on him...its tough to tell from just seeing the broadcast angle of the game.  

Edited February 12, 2021 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[BADOLBILZ]

17 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I dont mean to take away from mahomes but its pretty rare a first or second year qb gets dropped into a lineup who's already in their super bowl window...im not sure he deserves all the credit for their super bowl appearances 

 

Yeah he did come to a "good" team but it was one that was only a WC round type team even with a very good QB in Alex Smith.  If it were just about windows then Mahomes should have been arriving at the end of theirs.   Earlier under Reid they had been a defense-centric playoff team that one season had zero touchdown passes  thrown to wide receivers.    Then they aged out on defense and transitioned to an offensive team for a couple playoff trips and gradually became very one-sided on that side of the ball.   The 2018 Chiefs that Mahomes took to the #1 seed had a very bad defense.    They've gotten better as a team in the two seasons since.    If that's just a window then it's a very big window.   The window where Mahomes is involved is probably when his salary cap figure jumps up dramatically in 2022.  

[LABILLBACKER]

17 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Mahommes was hurt and it affected his movement in the pocket.   He played ok just not super-human. The line was the main issue pure and simple. I will add Kelce had three drops in the SB in a season where he had only 1 in 16 games.  

Remember how Josh played with the shoulder brace. He had an off game but I'm not going to anoint him as the next Brady. We'll see what he looks like when he loses Kelce in a few years?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yeah he did come to a "good" team but it was one that was only a WC round type team even with a very good QB in Alex Smith.  If it were just about windows then Mahomes should have been arriving at the end of theirs.   Earlier under Reid they had been a defense-centric playoff team that one season had zero touchdown passes  thrown to wide receivers.    Then they aged out on defense and transitioned to an offensive team for a couple playoff trips and gradually became very one-sided on that side of the ball.   The 2018 Chiefs that Mahomes took to the #1 seed had a very bad defense.    They've gotten better as a team in the two seasons since.    If that's just a window then it's a very big window.   The window where Mahomes is involved is probably when his salary cap figure jumps up dramatically in 2022.  

Right thats what I was getting to lol I guess he's gonna get an even better chance to prove he can carry the team by himself when he loses a few weapons.  Im certainly not saying he's incapable he's just never really had to.  That's why that super bowl was so eye opening to me its like they had never seen adversity before and they completely collapsed from top to bottom.  Yea the offensive line was bad but they either did nothing to help mahomes out or he did nothing to help himself I cant tell which 

[Brennan Huff]

13 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

To clarify i wouldnt say I blame him for the loss at all I just think the supposed greatest quarterback in the history of football couldve done a better job keeping them in the game. He showed some impressive athleticism but he was straight up panicking and not even giving plays a chance late in that game...he was takin snaps and immediately running 20 yards backwards like people did with Michael Vick in the old madden games 🤣 maybe Andy Reid wasn't calling plays to alleviate the pass blocking issue and its all on him...its tough to tell from just seeing the broadcast angle of the game.  

I don’t think anyone has anointed the greatest quarterback in the history of football. That’s all I need to read to know what I’m dealing with here...

[FireChans]

18 hours ago, JohnNord said:

After weeks of hearing how Patrick Mahomes is the “Michael Jordan” of the NFL, some in the media are now going out of their way to prop up his performance in the Super Bowl - despite the bad numbers and meager scoring output.

 

 

Yet earlier today, one of the most respect film analysts Gregg Cosell, actually used film study to show that Mahomes didn’t play his best game.  In the full podcast Tucker noted that so many wanted to blame the OL without acknowledging that Mahomes wasn’t as sharp as he’s been in the past.  

 

 

My opinion, is that while Mahomes made some incredible plays it was still probably his worst game as a pro.  I wouldn’t say he was the reason he lost, but you can add him to the long list of Chiefs who didn’t deliver.  
 

I do feel that the media is contorting to try to prop him up.  I find that kind of bizarre.  The crazy thing is that against the Bills everyone said “oh look how he’s moving he’s showing NO effects from turf toe.”  Then when he was losing they said “that turf toe is really affecting his throws tonight.”

 

The Chiefs fanbase is especially banging this drum hard.   
 

Where do you fall on this debate and do you think there’s a Pro-Mahomes narrative some are trying to push?

Can we cross-reference this topic with the topics discussing Josh’s performance in the AFCCG and then all agree to stop talking?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 minute ago, Brennan Huff said:

I don’t think anyone has anointed the greatest quarterback in the history of football. That’s all I need to read to know what I’m dealing with here...

Did you have the game on mute and avoid all football related media this season? Lol They were talking about how he could win more super bowls than brady while being destroyed....by tom brady 🤣 mahomes did not play anywhere near his best in the super bowl and i guarantee you he would tell you the same thing if you asked him.  His game was eerily similar to Josh's against the chiefs...oline can't block so you try to do too much yourself and get mixed results.  For every stunningly athletic play there is an equally headscratching bad sack/bad read 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Did you have the game on mute and avoid all football related media this season? Lol They were talking about how he could win more super bowls than brady while being destroyed....by tom brady 🤣

 

This is actually quite true.  And also in the media hype leading up to the game.

[starrymessenger]

18 hours ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

While QB is the most important position in sports, you win as a team and you lose as a team. If your OLine plays poorly you’re not going anywhere no matter how good your QB is. 

This is of course true. But as others have mentioned there are things that you can do to counter a very good pass rush and take pressure off of a mediocre O-line. I don’t know that KC made the adjustments to their gameplan that were necessary. The short passing/ground game was what the Bucs were serving up but there were no takers. With the Bucs dropping 7 in coverage stubbornly hard nosing it looking for the big play all day long was just setting PM up in a hamburger uniform and throwing him to a pack of ravenous dogs.

[JohnNord]

5 hours ago, Brennan Huff said:

I don’t think anyone has anointed the greatest quarterback in the history of football. That’s all I need to read to know what I’m dealing with here...

I think it was a hyperbole.  There was a ton of glowing media coverage about how great Mahomes is.  Many did proclaim his as the “Michael Jordan of NFL” and praised him as the most dominant athlete in any leagues.

So to say that Mahomes was heavily hyped leading up to the Super Bowl is an understatement.  

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by JohnNord

[C.Biscuit97]

We should have some more negative Mahomes threads. Doesn’t make us look bitter at all.

[JohnNord]

5 hours ago, SGA50 said:

 

 

Ha!

 

100% of people should trust Greg Cosell over Mina Kimes. Mina Kimes knows next to nothing about football besides the basics.

 

🤣🤣

Worst sports personality on television and not close.

She thinks she does and fancies herself as a believer in analytics 

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

We should have some more negative Mahomes threads. Doesn’t make us look bitter at all.

It’s not bitter...just pointing out the contrast in the way that different media personalities are analyzing the same performance.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

We should have some more negative Mahomes threads. Doesn’t make us look bitter at all.

Imagine being so insecure you worry about how a negative Mahomes thread on the internet makes you look

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Imagine being so insecure you worry about how a negative Mahomes thread on the internet makes you look

Haha, I couldn’t care at all. But having multiple threads about the qb who beat us seems excessive. If KC fans did this after Allen lost a super bowl, I would think they were losers. So would most people here. 
 

Mahomes is the best qb in the NFL and Allen made himself part of the conversation. Why are trying to tear Mahomes and Watson down? But you do you. I’m all about positivity. ✌️

11 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

She thinks she does and fancies herself as a believer in analytics 

It’s not bitter...just pointing out the contrast in the way that different media personalities are analyzing the same performance.

It was the worst game of Mahomes’ career and the first time he lost by more than double digits. In the super bowl. With a bunch of linemen out. He wasn’t the reason they lost. 
 

if this is happening all next year, then you start questioning him. But the great ones get more of a pass than Mitchell Tribusky. 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Haha, I couldn’t care at all. But having multiple threads about the qb who beat us seems excessive. If KC fans did this after Allen lost a super bowl, I would think they were losers. So would most people here. 
 

Mahomes is the best qb in the NFL and Allen made himself part of the conversation. Why are trying to tear Mahomes and Watson down? But you do you. I’m all about positivity. ✌️

Yup you've been positive on Allen the whole way haven't you

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Yup you've been positive on Allen the whole way haven't you

Nope. He’s wasn’t that good his first 2 years and got carried by a good/ great defense. He improved more than any player I’ve seen this year and I give him all the credit in the world.

 

it’s wild but when I get more information, I switch my opinion on things. Since Allen is a top 5 qb, there will not be one ounce of criticism from me about him. I also think criticizing other top 5 qbs is strange too but you do you and have a great weekend. ✌️

[PrimeTime101]

I will tell one thin Josh will NEVER EVER DO at the end of ANY game... and thats throwing his own team mates under the buss..

 

Oh yea... I forgot Mahomes was flawless that game...

 

 

 

 

 

 

not

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I will tell one thin Josh will NEVER EVER DO at the end of ANY game... and thats throwing his own team mates under the buss..

 

Oh yea... I forgot Mahomes was flawless that game...

 

 

 

 

 

 

not

 

Mahomes also threw himself under the bus. It was a clumsy presser but he was just shell shocked.

[PrimeTime101]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Mahomes also threw himself under the bus. It was a clumsy presser but he was just shell shocked.

No excuses,,, IF Josh did that he would be slammed all off season by the media....  Mahomes does it the media treats him like a baby teddy bear.... no excuses

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Mahomes also threw himself under the bus. It was a clumsy presser but he was just shell shocked.

 

Eh he didn't seem too sincere about it. You could tell by his attitude he felt the offense let him down more than he let them down. And to be fair he's right. But the most successful people in any profession always blame themselves for failure even if it's objectively true that someone else is to blame. Genuinely feeling that you and you alone could have done more is a huge motivator.

 

You can tell Allen takes every loss personally, almost to a fault. He isn't just saying platitudes, you can see it on his face after every loss "man I screwed this one up" even when he wasn't to blame. I could find 10 reasons the Bills lost to KC but Allen would only ever point to himself. He said it in his Chris Simms interview, he can be self-loathing at times. Every loss only motivates him to work harder so it doesn't happen again.

 

All this being said it doesn't really matter because Mahomes is extremely talented and will dominate the league for a long time. It does make me question what it will look like if he ever faces long periods of real adversity in his NFL career because that will undoubtedly happen at some point. Is he going to find excuses or find a way to win?

[Meatloaf63]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:30 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

Mahommes was hurt and it affected his movement in the pocket.   He played ok just not super-human. The line was the main issue pure and simple. I will add Kelce had three drops in the SB in a season where he had only 1 in 16 games.  

If you watch Kelce play he regularly drops balls, he had a few the week before. And Mahomes ran for over hundreds of yards behind the line of scrimmage he was fine. But you are right, the line was his issue, he’s never faced that kind of pressure and he couldn’t perform because of it. Few can deal with it that hard, and he didn’t on this night...

[finn]

There are many quarterbacks with awful lines and unreliable receivers, starting with Allen his first year, but none of them is defended so vehemently as Mahomes is. Some psychological effect is at work, like the writers are identifying with him or are otherwise tied to his being not just very good but flawless, godlike. They seem threatened by critiques of his play, as though they fear the critiques are about them and their manhood. Weird. We've seen the same with Marcia all these years. Any whisper that he might have played poorly is shouted down. 

[FireChans]

31 minutes ago, finn said:

There are many quarterbacks with awful lines and unreliable receivers, starting with Allen his first year, but none of them is defended so vehemently as Mahomes is. Some psychological effect is at work, like the writers are identifying with him or are otherwise tied to his being not just very good but flawless, godlike. They seem threatened by critiques of his play, as though they fear the critiques are about them and their manhood. Weird. We've seen the same with Marcia all these years. Any whisper that he might have played poorly is shouted down. 

Wow. Super Bowl winners and MVP’s don’t get attacked by the media.

 

This is a shocking development 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Meatloaf63 said:

If you watch Kelce play he regularly drops balls, he had a few the week before. And Mahomes ran for over hundreds of yards behind the line of scrimmage he was fine. But you are right, the line was his issue, he’s never faced that kind of pressure and he couldn’t perform because of it. Few can deal with it that hard, and he didn’t on this night...

I don’t watch every KC game but I looked up Kelce. At one point he went 58 receptions without a drop and he was only credited with 1 during the season. But that stat can be subjective I'm sure.

[billsherd]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:48 PM, Rico said:

Pictures speak louder than words.

Seeing ghost?👻

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Eh he didn't seem too sincere about it. You could tell by his attitude he felt the offense let him down more than he let them down. And to be fair he's right. But the most successful people in any profession always blame themselves for failure even if it's objectively true that someone else is to blame. Genuinely feeling that you and you alone could have done more is a huge motivator.

 

You can tell Allen takes every loss personally, almost to a fault. He isn't just saying platitudes, you can see it on his face after every loss "man I screwed this one up" even when he wasn't to blame. I could find 10 reasons the Bills lost to KC but Allen would only ever point to himself. He said it in his Chris Simms interview, he can be self-loathing at times. Every loss only motivates him to work harder so it doesn't happen again.

 

All this being said it doesn't really matter because Mahomes is extremely talented and will dominate the league for a long time. It does make me question what it will look like if he ever faces long periods of real adversity in his NFL career because that will undoubtedly happen at some point. Is he going to find excuses or find a way to win?

 

How can you "tell"? I can't "tell". Pure speculation.

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

How can you "tell"? I can't "tell". Pure speculation.

I don't consider this speculation... I consider this good observation. Many of us feel this same way.. Maybe how you looked at it was different? and that is ok right? cause we all have the right to see things how we see them.

[machine gun kelly]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:26 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Michael Jordan didn't even make it to the NBA finals until his 7th year...........he had more than a few fails in the lead up........and never won a championship when he didn't have the healthier and more talented team.

 

That's not to detract from Jordan but the notion that he was infallible is far from correct.    2 SB appearances and 3 title games in 3 years as a starting QB in the NFL is pretty amazing.

Everything you said is irrefutable, but I believe he was asking if the media was using every excuse to not admit he had a bad game.  I would agree he had a bad game, and his turf toe was more severe than he let on for good reason.  You try not to let onto you’re opponent the significance of an injury without going too far to get in trouble with the league.

 

My answer is yes, he had one bad game although it was in the biggest game of the year.  It’s also a little demeaning to the Bucs as that defense had a great game, so when some media folks twist what we saw, it doesn’t make sense.

 

Nord, I don’t read your post as not acknowledging how great the beginning of a career he’s had, just that several don’t want to admit, he played a bad game.  I agree.  It’s part that and part the defense played a great game in all phases.

 

Thats my vote, and One reason I like Cosell is he’s not afraid to just state reality.  He doesn’t pump up or down people.  That’s why my favorite football show although least favorite station is Matchup.

[Thurman#1]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:14 AM, JohnNord said:

After weeks of hearing how Patrick Mahomes is the “Michael Jordan” of the NFL, some in the media are now going out of their way to prop up his performance in the Super Bowl - despite the bad numbers and meager scoring output.

 

 

Yet earlier today, one of the most respect film analysts Gregg Cosell, actually used film study to show that Mahomes didn’t play his best game.  In the full podcast Tucker noted that so many wanted to blame the OL without acknowledging that Mahomes wasn’t as sharp as he’s been in the past.  

 

 

My opinion, is that while Mahomes made some incredible plays it was still probably his worst game as a pro.  I wouldn’t say he was the reason he lost, but you can add him to the long list of Chiefs who didn’t deliver.  
 

I do feel that the media is contorting to try to prop him up.  I find that kind of bizarre.  The crazy thing is that against the Bills everyone said “oh look how he’s moving he’s showing NO effects from turf toe.”  Then when he was losing they said “that turf toe is really affecting his throws tonight.”

 

The Chiefs fanbase is especially banging this drum hard.   
 

Where do you fall on this debate and do you think there’s a Pro-Mahomes narrative some are trying to push?

 

 

Gotta disagree with you about the turf toe. I was really hoping to see him limp against us. He didn't. It looked like he'd recovered. Then against Tampa he was limping a lot. Maybe someone stepped on him or he kicked the turf or something but it was immediately clear that he was suffering from it much more against Tampa than he had against us.

 

And I wouldn't say his worst game as a pro. That's significant exaggeration. But yeah, the pressure really did affect him, but it will affect any QB, really. Still, not his best game, but I agree that he was not one of the major reasons they lost.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I don't consider this speculation... I consider this good observation. Many of us feel this same way.. Maybe how you looked at it was different? and that is ok right? cause we all have the right to see things how we see them.

 

For sure. You are allowed to see it and interpret it differently. But I am equally allowed to challenge what I see as a false narrative. 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I don't consider this speculation... I consider this good observation. Many of us feel this same way.. Maybe how you looked at it was different? and that is ok right? cause we all have the right to see things how we see them.

 

 

Regardless of how you consider it, it's speculation. Either way.

 

He didn't say anything that would make anyone think that. Reading his "attitude," which is where you said the problem was, that's speculation.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Regardless of how you consider it, it's speculation. Either way.

 

He didn't say anything that would make anyone think that. Reading his "attitude," which is where you said the problem was, that's speculation.

 

This. You said it better than I Thurm. Thanks.

[Thurman#1]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:21 AM, Johnnycage46 said:

I would tend to trust Cosell over Mina Kimes, personally.

 

 

 

Well, yes, but they didn't disagree.

 

Cosell said he played fast right from the start, that he moved unnecessarily, that "he was anticipating and perceiving pressure even when it was not there," (a very common symptom of QBs who are pressured a lot in a game, by the way), "and he missed about three or four plays, including what would have been a touchdown to Tyreek Hill because he moved when he did not have to."

 

Kimes said that Mahomes wasn't in the top ten of reasons they lost.

 

Both of those things could easily be true. They are not logically contradictory.

 

I think Kimes was exaggerating, myself. He probably was among the top ten, but not among the top five, IMO. I don't think he was in a position to get them to a win even if he'd played the best possible game under the conditions.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Thurman#1

[JohnNord]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Gotta disagree with you about the turf toe. I was really hoping to see him limp against us. He didn't. It looked like he'd recovered. Then against Tampa he was limping a lot. Maybe someone stepped on him or he kicked the turf or something but it was immediately clear that he was suffering from it much more against Tampa than he had against us.

 

And I wouldn't say his worst game as a pro. That's significant exaggeration. But yeah, the pressure really did affect him, but it will affect any QB, really. Still, not his best game, but I agree that he was not one of the major reasons they lost.

Ok so what was his worst game then?  Part of the reason for so much hype is that “bad” games by Mahomes standards really aren’t that bad.  By the numbers alone this was easily his worst. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Gotta disagree with you about the turf toe. I was really hoping to see him limp against us. He didn't. It looked like he'd recovered. Then against Tampa he was limping a lot. Maybe someone stepped on him or he kicked the turf or something but it was immediately clear that he was suffering from it much more against Tampa than he had against us.

 

Against us, Mahomes got to stand peacefully in the pocket and lick his lips or scamper untouched out of bounds.

 

Against Tampa, he was constantly harassed, he ran around frantically trying to find a play, and he got hit and tackled in a way that could easily have aggravated his toe.

[HappyDays]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

How can you "tell"? I can't "tell". Pure speculation.

 

Yeah I'll admit it's speculation but it isn't baseless. I've never heard a QB in a post game press conference come out and say his receivers were in the wrong spot and that his offensive line gave up pressure. The standard is to say "I could have played better" and move on. This was the first time in Mahomes's NFL career that he faced real adversity and personally I don't think he handled it well.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I'll admit it's speculation but it isn't baseless. I've never heard a QB in a post game press conference come out and say his receivers were in the wrong spot and that his offensive line gave up pressure. The standard is to say "I could have played better" and move on. This was the first time in Mahomes's NFL career that he faced real adversity and personally I don't think he handled it well.

 

But to me he sounded perfectly sincere when he started by criticising himself and if anything my interpretation was he was still a little shocked. I just think way too much is being read into it. He said he was off with his timing and that his receivers were not where he expected them to be. He might well have been in his head linking the two like "I have to get it out on time or else the guys won't be in their spots" and he said the line did good sometimes and let guys through sometimes. Again he could have used the "sure there are some plays they'd like back" cliché but that is what he was getting at. It was clumsy and he did kind of throw his guys under the bus but he was throwing himself right there with them in my opinion. I don't for a second believe he was trying to pass the buck. 

[Nextmanup]

4 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Ok so what was his worst game then?  Part of the reason for so much hype is that “bad” games by Mahomes standards really aren’t that bad.  By the numbers alone this was easily his worst. 

You aren't actually engaged in a campaign here arguing against Mahomes' talent, are you?

 

He's the #1 most desirable QB in the league right now, and every single team in the NFL agrees with me.

 

Beyond that, there's really not much to discuss, unless you just want to argue with strangers on the internet for fun.

 

 

[JohnNord]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

You aren't actually engaged in a campaign here arguing against Mahomes' talent, are you?

 

He's the #1 most desirable QB in the league right now, and every single team in the NFL agrees with me.

 

Beyond that, there's really not much to discuss, unless you just want to argue with strangers on the internet for fun.

 

 

I don’t think Mahomes needs you to white knight for him.  Besides, I never doubted his talent at all.  What I did doubt is whether his game was as good as some have touted it to be.  This entire thread is around the variance of opinion as to whether Mahomes played a “great” game in the Super Bowl.  Fans and media all have different takes which is what makes this a topic worth discussing...because you know you are on an internet message board with strangers for fun.  
 

Someone emphatically stated that the Super Bowl wasn’t his worst game, and I said it was citing actual statistics.  So again, I’ll ask you since you see to be so vested in Mahomes.  What was his worst game as a pro?  Because just about every other start has been good