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Why is Allen's improvement linked to Daboll?


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2 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for John Allen's success.

 

Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does very little work on a QBs mechanics, that is left up to the QB coach, and in Josh's case, Palmer in the offseason.  To me, it is no coincidence that in the offseason which had tighter rules on working with Bills coaches, Allen took the biggest leap.  Palmer is incredible and Daboll is profiting off of it.  Not to mention Allen's attitude has been nothing short of tremendous.  The kid put in work mentally in the offseason, you see it every drive.  He reads the defense so well now, and from watching Tom vs Time, that is something that is perfected in the offseason.

 

Daboll is pretty good at taking plays from other teams and running them here.  He is very good at listening to his players.  However, I think his game management is suspect and I feel like every time I hear about a great play, it's Allen reading the D and audibling into the play.

 

I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but it just kind of irks me when Daboll is viewed as some genius developer of Allen.

 

 

It is entirely a fake, media-driven false narrative to take credit away from JA. 

 

Do not believe any of it, and hope Daboll goes elsewhere so JA has a chip on the shoulder to play even better AFTER Daboll leaves, which he will do.

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because he's his coach?

I hear Daboll is on the hot seat.

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for Joshua Allen's success.   Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does v

It’s not that bad of a subject to debate I personally would rather keep keep everything the way it is right now but someone could also say that bringing in a good quarterbacks coach may have also greatly contributed to Josh Allen’s improvement that quarterbacks coach would probably be be in line for the OC position if the debol leaves I am not advocating for debol leaving 

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1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

As someone that defended Daboll before he was a darling in Buffalo I always praised him for allowing Allen to make mistakes. Daboll gave Allen everything from protection calls to checks. Allen had a full plate. He made some poor decisions but they let him learn from mistakes. Allen is calling all the protections. He's operating like you would expect a top 5 QB to operate at the line pre snap. Credit Daboll and the coaches for allowing Allen that freedom. 

 

With that said the only reason they allowed Allen that freedom is because he could handle it. Allen is the reason for his success. His mental capacity and his offseason work will help him continue to have success. 

 

Yep I absolutely agree with all that and I was the same. Daboll could have scaled back the offense at times and maybe won a game or two more in 18 and 19.... but he was trying to build something that was really good and here we are. 

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3 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for John Allen's success.

 

Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does very little work on a QBs mechanics, that is left up to the QB coach, and in Josh's case, Palmer in the offseason.  To me, it is no coincidence that in the offseason which had tighter rules on working with Bills coaches, Allen took the biggest leap.  Palmer is incredible and Daboll is profiting off of it.  Not to mention Allen's attitude has been nothing short of tremendous.  The kid put in work mentally in the offseason, you see it every drive.  He reads the defense so well now, and from watching Tom vs Time, that is something that is perfected in the offseason.

 

Daboll is pretty good at taking plays from other teams and running them here.  He is very good at listening to his players.  However, I think his game management is suspect and I feel like every time I hear about a great play, it's Allen reading the D and audibling into the play.

 

I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but it just kind of irks me when Daboll is viewed as some genius developer of Allen.

Ask Josh, he'll tell you

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They did completely the opposite to this.

I actually think the did both.  Does that make sense?

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So maybe I missed it somewhere in this thread, but one thing to consider that if/when Daboll leaves for a head coaching job, he is going to take coaches from here with him.  Don't just automatically assume that because Josh Allen is the quarterback that guys won't follow Daboll to wherever he goes.  Is the idea of being the OC for a Josh Allen offense intriguing?  I'm sure it is, but some coaches will have a better relationship with Daboll and may feel that the opportunity at a new location is better than the one here.  So while we all may think that perhaps Ken Dorsey will just become the OC (just using him as an example, I have no idea if the Bills think this way) maybe Dorsey will follow Daboll and become his OC with a new team

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3 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for John Allen's success.

 

Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does very little work on a QBs mechanics, that is left up to the QB coach, and in Josh's case, Palmer in the offseason.  To me, it is no coincidence that in the offseason which had tighter rules on working with Bills coaches, Allen took the biggest leap.  Palmer is incredible and Daboll is profiting off of it.  Not to mention Allen's attitude has been nothing short of tremendous.  The kid put in work mentally in the offseason, you see it every drive.  He reads the defense so well now, and from watching Tom vs Time, that is something that is perfected in the offseason.

 

Daboll is pretty good at taking plays from other teams and running them here.  He is very good at listening to his players.  However, I think his game management is suspect and I feel like every time I hear about a great play, it's Allen reading the D and audibling into the play.

 

I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but it just kind of irks me when Daboll is viewed as some genius developer of Allen.

 

Allen had two big development needs:

1) physical - improved mechanics leading to improved accuracy

2) mental - improved ability to read the field and interpret it - in other words, it's not enough to see what the D is doing, he has to know what that means in the context of the called play or alternate.

 

Allen credits Daboll and Dorsey with helping him develop 2) as well as with tailoring his play design and calling to what Allen does well.

 

Allen, Palmer, and others he's worked with deserve credit for 1)

 

I'm confused why you think Josh Allen is named John

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2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yes but as I said above, I'm not sure Daboll was that good years' 1 & 2.  

 

The difference however was evident game 1 this year vs. The Jets when a McD coached team finally threw for 300......😜

The level of success has been literally directly in sync with the level of talent on the team. It matters more than any other factor.

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10 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

I have always maintained that Allen has carried Daboll and really the whole organization. Look what they gave him to work with his rookie year.  

When I can read/call the play from the couch years 1-2 that told me how pretty simple it was.

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After reading some of these posts, I’m starting to wonder how much whiskey y’all put in your Irish coffee in the morning. Not a doubt in my mind anymore that some of you start early and heavy.

 

cheers

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Because of the creativity shown in the Bills offense. 

 

The statue of liberty play in Denver, the Allen catch for TD in Arizona, last week's Knox TD, Beasley's trick throw TD. 

 

Also, the Bills got 4 primetime games in a row and smashed everyone with points. 

 

This is no different than Gase getting the Miami job based on his work with Manning in Denver. Teams see a great offense, and want to mimic that. 

 

But point taken, Allen works relentlessly on his game, Beane has said this from the very beginning. They give Allen an offseason improvement plan, and he goes to work. Additionally, the external work with Palmer, and the separate workouts with his WRs is working. 

Edited by Straight Hucklebuck
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3 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

Daboll has consistently put Josh in a position to succeed, that is why. Part of his plan from the get go was to throw him to the wolves. Instead of a training wheels offense like Lamar plays in, a crap show like Darnold or a run first offense to protect him like Mayfield.

 

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I think they babied Allen and that was my continual complaint.

IMO, the two sides of the coin help illustrate why Daboll deserves credit.  Opinions can and do differ wildly - from throwing to the wolves or babying.  No debate though on tremendous results in year 3 and looks like a franchise QB. 

 

JA is not a finished product though and I would like to have Daboll back to help continue with Josh's progress.  I believe continuity helps and if Daboll goes elsewhere I hope they hire from within and keep the same system - it's fun and it's working.

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3 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for John Allen's success.

 

Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does very little work on a QBs mechanics, that is left up to the QB coach, and in Josh's case, Palmer in the offseason.  To me, it is no coincidence that in the offseason which had tighter rules on working with Bills coaches, Allen took the biggest leap.  Palmer is incredible and Daboll is profiting off of it.  Not to mention Allen's attitude has been nothing short of tremendous.  The kid put in work mentally in the offseason, you see it every drive.  He reads the defense so well now, and from watching Tom vs Time, that is something that is perfected in the offseason.

 

Daboll is pretty good at taking plays from other teams and running them here.  He is very good at listening to his players.  However, I think his game management is suspect and I feel like every time I hear about a great play, it's Allen reading the D and audibling into the play.

 

I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but it just kind of irks me when Daboll is viewed as some genius developer of Allen.

Because they don’t want to give Josh the credit for being wrong about him it must be forces beyond his control that made him what he is 

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29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Allen had two big development needs:

1) physical - improved mechanics leading to improved accuracy

2) mental - improved ability to read the field and interpret it - in other words, it's not enough to see what the D is doing, he has to know what that means in the context of the called play or alternate.

 

Allen credits Daboll and Dorsey with helping him develop 2) as well as with tailoring his play design and calling to what Allen does well.

 

Allen, Palmer, and others he's worked with deserve credit for 1)

 

I'm confused why you think Josh Allen is named John

 

Auto-correct in phone.  Sorry about that, I will edit.  

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2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They did completely the opposite to this.

I have to disagree, it's somewhere in the middle.  Daboll challenged the kid, but also tailored game plans to what he was comfortable with.  That's in a couple different articles.  Fans here griped about Daboll's playcalling the last 2 years but I believe part of that was because of Josh Allen's development (also lack of talent at the receiving end).

 

The mental part isn't just interpreting what's on the field, it's also the speed at which you do it.  IMO it's a lot easier to build that speed if you start with less complexity on offense and build on to it.   Last year, including the game I watched in Cleveland, seemed aimed at emphasizing the middle and short routes, getting Allen less focused on the long downfield plays he has an affinity for.  Trying to change his habits.  I believe his long balls were off so much because they de-emphasized them in practice so much.  JMO, but in looking at the change in his style of play from year 1 to 2, it was obvious to me.

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33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Allen had two big development needs:

1) physical - improved mechanics leading to improved accuracy

2) mental - improved ability to read the field and interpret it - in other words, it's not enough to see what the D is doing, he has to know what that means in the context of the called play or alternate.

 

Allen credits Daboll and Dorsey with helping him develop 2) as well as with tailoring his play design and calling to what Allen does well.

 

Allen, Palmer, and others he's worked with deserve credit for 1)

 

I'm confused why you think Josh Allen is named John

 

From watching Tom vs Time, a lot of the mental understanding of defenses is actually done in offseason programs.

 

Allen's biggest jump doing that was when offseason programs were limited from COVID.

 

When OCs draw up new innovate plays, especially running plays, I value that a lot more than when OCs run other teams plays when they have a QB that is able to operate those plays better than 95% of other NFL QBs.  I think Daboll has severely lacked any creativity in blocking, running, and situational football.  All things I would value over his, so called, "genius improvement" of Allen.

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9 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

 

From watching Tom vs Time, a lot of the mental understanding of defenses is actually done in offseason programs.

 

Allen's biggest jump doing that was when offseason programs were limited from COVID.

 

When OCs draw up new innovate plays, especially running plays, I value that a lot more than when OCs run other teams plays when they have a QB that is able to operate those plays better than 95% of other NFL QBs.  I think Daboll has severely lacked any creativity in blocking, running, and situational football.  All things I would value over his, so called, "genius improvement" of Allen.

Do you really believe that every existing running play combination has not been done at least once in the NFL?  Do you really think that OC's are creating a new running play that has never been seen before?  Please provide a couple examples of absolutely new play design that has been run by an OC that was not created before this year.

Edited by Lagoon Blues
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4 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for Joshua Allen's success.

 

Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does very little work on a QBs mechanics, that is left up to the QB coach, and in Josh's case, Palmer in the offseason.  To me, it is no coincidence that in the offseason which had tighter rules on working with Bills coaches, Allen took the biggest leap.  Palmer is incredible and Daboll is profiting off of it.  Not to mention Allen's attitude has been nothing short of tremendous.  The kid put in work mentally in the offseason, you see it every drive.  He reads the defense so well now, and from watching Tom vs Time, that is something that is perfected in the offseason.

 

Daboll is pretty good at taking plays from other teams and running them here.  He is very good at listening to his players.  However, I think his game management is suspect and I feel like every time I hear about a great play, it's Allen reading the D and audibling into the play.

 

I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but it just kind of irks me when Daboll is viewed as some genius developer of Allen.

Daboll has helped as has Dorsey.   But I am amazed that Jordan Palmer is getting minimal credit.   I believe Palmer has had a dramatic affect on Allen's development, especially in the area of accuracy. 

 

The media are a bunch of lemmings that just sing the most popular narrative at the moment.

 

Great thread. 

 

Thank you.

Edited by longtimebillsfan
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