Josh Allen and the Deep Ball - Roundtable Discussion

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Is it really important how good a player a coach was? I mean seriously! Think about it.

No, not at all.

 

The only point I was making is that Allen has made tremendous strides in his short and intermediate passing, whereas Blake never really accomplished that. In light of that, I wouldn’t be so quick to take advice regarding fundamentals and/or technique from a guy that never really achieved such precision.

 

I actually like Blake a lot. Very successful man and a profoundly good person. I just don’t think I’d trust him to coach up my QB.

[Jay_Fixit]

Everyone can say words, but it seems like Whitfield and Moon are the only two of them that make sense.

 

Dickey seems like he was woken up from a nap.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

It's all good. More for the crowd than you Bandit.

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Everyone seems to be skeptical of Josh Allen as a QB.... except Bills fans. 

And Nate Burleson and Chris Simms and Jordan Palmer and Jamal Adams and Pete Prisco and a whole bunch of others, including his teammates—which actually is the most important endorsement of all.

[Freddie's Dead]

How many drops have occurred on the long balls?  I'm guessing at least 10 over the last two years.  Then you have Robert Foster who was clueless two years ago, but he was the "long ball" guy.  I think Josh is fine and will get better with better receivers.

[Bangarang]

3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Palmer has actually coached. Has Blake?

That wasn’t your point though. 

[thebandit27]

19 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

That wasn’t your point though. 

I’ve clarified my point at least 3 times. I’m comfortable with what I’ve stated.

[Protocal69]

4 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Palmer has actually coached. Has Blake?

 

The point is: who is Blake to be talking about what factors limit the effectiveness of an NFL passer when he was basically a one-trick pony?

 

But apparently I’ve offended some Jeff Blake fans so I’ll apologize and move on.

 

Yes Blake runs a QB coaching clinic.

[Bangarang]

20 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I’ve clarified my point at least 3 times. I’m comfortable with what I’ve stated.

It was a silly point to make and you’ve had several people questioning it.

 

You're smart enough to know it was silly. We don’t have to keep beating the dead horse.

[thebandit27]

10 minutes ago, Protocal69 said:

Yes Blake runs a QB coaching clinic.

He runs a QB mentorship program. The NFL communications interview I read he talked about teaching QBs to read coverages and a lot of chalk-talk type stuff.

 

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

It was a silly point to make and you’ve had several people questioning it.

 

You're smart enough to know it was silly. We don’t have to keep beating the dead horse.

You’re entitled to your opinion.

[LABILLBACKER]

19 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

eh, this is pretty much what everyone has said about Allen and his deep passing - not enough arc on throws and poor lower body mechanics at times.

I screamed all last season that all Josh had to do was increase his F ing trajectory. Doesn't even take 5 minutes. Maybe 5 seconds. I would rather have a slightly underthrown 50/50 ball giving Diggs a chance than overthrowing everyone by 8 yards. A pitcher throwing 102 is worthless if he can't spot his pitches.

[Rockinon]

I think there is some truth to those saying conservative coaching is a problem. Protect the ball. That is important, but it's also important to trust your receivers to go get it even if they are covered. Also, some of Josh's issues are with his base when throwing. He often throws off balance while on the move though he did improve a good deal later the season last year. He has a great advantage though. He does not have to windup like Ryan Fitzpatrick did to get the ball deep. I honestly think Josh is very accurate throwing to a spot like the article suggests. And I think the advice that Josh received from Romo is legit.

 

Allen at this point in his career has been working on mechanics to the point that he can't really learn much more other than to put what he has learned into practice. Romo just told him to keep his left elbow in tighter, rotate his body on an axis and pay attention to the flow of the game. It's the QB's job to control the flow. You can't do that if you are running for your life. You have to be as still as possible to do that. You pivot so you can make your reads and get rid of the ball on time. You keep your left arm close to your body while pivoting. Allen has a tendency to swing his arm out away from his body like a runner will do when trying to escape. To throw though, that arm should be in tight.  It's a very simple technique that does 2 things. You are able to make your read faster by pivoting on an axis and with your arm all ready tucked in tight, you can make an accurate throw. It's not rocket science here. Allen says he is throwing better than ever since Romo gave him that advice.

 

Allen I think has all ready learned a lot of things regarding mechanics. He is just now practicing what he has learned and has all ready made some improvements in live game situations. Now he is getting comfortable learning to control the game. Throwing to a spot in a perfect world is OK. Giving yourself time to analyze trajectory before throwing so your receiver can stay in stride is even better. A QB doesn't need much time to do that. That extra split second of being still and pivoting on an axis helps. When you change your position, your trajectory changes with it. Stay in one spot, and pivot. Good advice by Romo. This will decrease Allens rushing numbers but can vastly improve his passing numbers.

[Nextmanup]

Can we all please agree that this year is the last year that "project" and "work in progress" are acceptable ways to describe Josh Allen's ability to quarterback? 

 

At one point does "project" become "not good enough?"

 

I pray to God it's this year.

 

 

[Billl]

21 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Point is, Blake is speaking from a position of authority about how it takes more than an arm, and you need to be accurate.

 

To do what, Jeff? You had “the best” deep ball ever, and what did it get you? 2 above average seasons out of 9. I’m not sure he should speak so strongly.

 

How many above average seasons have you had?

[thebandit27]

12 minutes ago, Billl said:

How many above average seasons have you had?

In what sport?

 

And I don’t remember claiming that I could fix the kid in “5 minutes” 

[Punching Bag]

21 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Point is, Blake is speaking from a position of authority about how it takes more than an arm, and you need to be accurate.

 

To do what, Jeff? You had “the best” deep ball ever, and what did it get you? 2 above average seasons out of 9. I’m not sure he should speak so strongly.

 

 

Yes Blake had a great deep ball but were on a lot of poor teams.  This does not mean he does not know how to throw.

 

I'd like Allen to have some one-on-one time with Blake outside of Texas just coaching deep ball.  Maybe Blake, Allen and Allen's QB coach could meet someplace with a few WRs.   

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Yes Blake had a great deep ball but were on a lot of poor teams.  This does not mean he does not know how to throw.

 

I'd like Allen to have some one-on-one time with Blake outside of Texas just coaching deep ball.  Maybe Blake, Allen and Allen's QB coach could meet someplace with a few WRs.   

Hey maybe I’m mistaken and Blake is the guy that Allen needs.

 

I think it’s more likely that he’s not teaching him anything beyond the coaching he’s already getting though.

[BornAgainBillsFan]

JEFF BLAKE?????? SERIOUSLY???? Turk Schonert wasn't available to impart his wisdom??

 

Too many websites, with too many bottom dweller analysts.

[John from Riverside]

Do I really need to post the video of the drops again

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

On 7/2/2020 at 4:42 PM, mjt328 said:

Talk.  Talk.  Talk.

 

Three years ago, the critics were saying that Josh Allen would be a total bust in the NFL.  The Bills should have drafted Josh Rosen instead.

While inconsistent, Allen showed lots of promise as a rookie.  At times, he totally took over games with his legs (Minnesota, Miami), while showing incredible leadership and a knack for making big plays late in games.  Rosen was the one who was a complete disaster.

 

So last offseason, the experts did everything to downplay what Allen was doing well.  Who cares about his athletic ability, his arm or his leadership?  The focus quickly shifted to what he was doing poorly, specifically his struggles with pocket presence and mid/short-range accuracy.  They said he would always be a gunslinger, who would struggle with these kinds of throws.  Allen responded by putting in work, and vastly improving in both of these areas.  

 

So now the goalpost has moved again.  Now Allen will NEVER SUCCEED unless he improves his deep ball.  

I guess we'll see...  But I seem to recall that Allen began hitting more and more of these passes in the final quarter of the season.  Specifically in the New England game.

 

 

 

and they seem to totally blow by the fact Allen is a very accurate passer in midfield.

 

My guess is these guys only saw the Allen plays presented to them by the research team 5 minutes before the show started.  And those plays were tailored to the narrative being pushed.  

[GreggTX]

On 7/2/2020 at 3:42 PM, mjt328 said:

Talk.  Talk.  Talk.

 

Three years ago, the critics were saying that Josh Allen would be a total bust in the NFL.  The Bills should have drafted Josh Rosen instead.

While inconsistent, Allen showed lots of promise as a rookie.  At times, he totally took over games with his legs (Minnesota, Miami), while showing incredible leadership and a knack for making big plays late in games.  Rosen was the one who was a complete disaster.

 

So last offseason, the experts did everything to downplay what Allen was doing well.  Who cares about his athletic ability, his arm or his leadership?  The focus quickly shifted to what he was doing poorly, specifically his struggles with pocket presence and mid/short-range accuracy.  They said he would always be a gunslinger, who would struggle with these kinds of throws.  Allen responded by putting in work, and vastly improving in both of these areas.  

 

So now the goalpost has moved again.  Now Allen will NEVER SUCCEED unless he improves his deep ball.  

I guess we'll see...  But I seem to recall that Allen began hitting more and more of these passes in the final quarter of the season.  Specifically in the New England game.

 

 

 

Why not Lamar Jackson and Greg Roman?

[Ethan in Cleveland]

18 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

How many drops have occurred on the long balls?  I'm guessing at least 10 over the last two years.  Then you have Robert Foster who was clueless two years ago, but he was the "long ball" guy.  I think Josh is fine and will get better with better receivers.

Cmon man. I like Josh a lot but drops were not the issue with his long ball last year. He was missing guys by 5 or more yards routinely.  None of us are smart enough to know what the issue is. And almost certainly it is not one thing.  Josh made great progress in making decisions and the short to intermediate throws.  Diggs will help but so will better play at RT.  Honestly I don't care if his long ball game gets any better.  Just get his comp percentage over 60% and cut the fumbles in half.  

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Cmon man. I like Josh a lot but drops were not the issue with his long ball last year. He was missing guys by 5 or more yards routinely.  None of us are smart enough to know what the issue is. And almost certainly it is not one thing.  Josh made great progress in making decisions and the short to intermediate throws.  Diggs will help but so will better play at RT.  Honestly I don't care if his long ball game gets any better.  Just get his comp percentage over 60% and cut the fumbles in half.  

I actually felt that Allen’s best deep ball of the season was on the first play of the Cleveland game; unfortunately Denzel Ward realized that Foster got behind him and took a smart DPI, otherwise that was a 75-yard TD.

[JESSEFEFFER]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

I actually felt that Allen’s best deep ball of the season was on the first play of the Cleveland game; unfortunately Denzel Ward realized that Foster got behind him and took a smart DPI, otherwise that was a 75-yard TD.

Interesting.  I should go back and find it.  There are nice benefits to taking these shots even when you are struggling to connect on them.  

 

The plays are there to make and when they start hitting on them the offense will look much different.  400+ points.

Edited July 4, 2020 by JESSEFEFFER

[Mr. WEO]

Outside of Moon....buncha bums.

 

Blake??  If they wanted the biggest armed "Jeff" for that panel, they should have gone with Jeff George.

 

 

[Freddie's Dead]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Cmon man. I like Josh a lot but drops were not the issue with his long ball last year. He was missing guys by 5 or more yards routinely.  None of us are smart enough to know what the issue is. And almost certainly it is not one thing.  Josh made great progress in making decisions and the short to intermediate throws.  Diggs will help but so will better play at RT.  Honestly I don't care if his long ball game gets any better.  Just get his comp percentage over 60% and cut the fumbles in half.  

 

I disagree with all the hand-wringing over JA's long ball.

[machine gun kelly]

Since this another thread about Allen bashing, I’ll just repeat Chris Mortensen’s comments the Allen bashing has become comical.  These talking heads basically already have made up their minds and they cherry pick information to suit their preconceived ideas.

 

Allen has improved from year 1 to 2, and he should improve even more in year 3.  Now that he has Diggs, and Moss added to the existing tools, he probably will hit that 65% completion rate.  There is some truth to earlier posts that Allen May have been overly coached to be safe, and thus a likely reason why he was axing a little like Taylor who won’t throw to a guy unless he is absolutely open, thus overthrowing to make sure he’s not picked off.

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

There is some truth to earlier posts that Allen May have been overly coached to be safe, and thus a likely reason why he was axing a little like Taylor who won’t throw to a guy unless he is absolutely open, thus overthrowing to make sure he’s not picked off.

This^^^

 

McDermott's game philosophy is to play just enough offense to let the defense win the game.  He would rather send the punting unit out than risk a turnover.  If you look at Josh year 1 to year 2, his deep ball got worse, and I can only guess he was coached to throw ahead of coverage to avoid the INT at all costs.

 

He wont have that issue with Diggs because Diggs is elite at snagging balls in coverage.  I think hes in the top 3 WRs for snagging contested balls.  I think we are going to see Josh throw much tighter to Diggs and I would be surprised if his completion rate doesn't improve past 60% and more.

 

Of course then there will be some other reason he was the wrong pick ... until we win the AFCE.

 

[Penfield45]

15 minutes ago, JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS said:

This^^^

 

McDermott's game philosophy is to play just enough offense to let the defense win the game.  He would rather send the punting unit out than risk a turnover.  If you look at Josh year 1 to year 2, his deep ball got worse, and I can only guess he was coached to throw ahead of coverage to avoid the INT at all costs.

 

He wont have that issue with Diggs because Diggs is elite at snagging balls in coverage.  I think hes in the top 3 WRs for snagging contested balls.  I think we are going to see Josh throw much tighter to Diggs and I would be surprised if his completion rate doesn't improve past 60% and more.

 

Of course then there will be some other reason he was the wrong pick ... until we win the AFCE.

 

 

when you coach a QB like that you are already failing him. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Sometimes I feel like the people they draft for these roundtable discussions are just given a predictable script.