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Protocal69

Josh Allen and the Deep Ball - Roundtable Discussion

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Posted (edited)

Requires paid subscription to the Athletic:

I’ll share some key snippets.

 

On the panel:

Warren Moon: The Pro Football Hall of Famer is widely considered to have thrown the greatest spiral. He finished among the top 10 in yards per completion five straight seasons, leading the NFL in 1987. He passed for the most yards in 1990 and 1991.


Jeff Blake: A starter with four teams, Blake often is mentioned as the sweetest deep-ball passer in NFL history. He began 1994 as the Cincinnati Bengals’ third-stringer and finished with the league’s highest yards per completion. He started the Pro Bowl a year later. Blake tutors quarterbacks in Texas.


George Whitfield: A private quarterback instructor, Whitfield has worked with stars such as Cam Newton, Ben Roethlisberger, Andrew Luck and Donovan McNabb and several Heisman Trophy winners.
 

Lynn Dickey: For 28 years, the Green Bay Packers Hall of Famer held the NFL record for most yards per attempt (minimum 350 passes). He twice led the league in yards per completion. Dickey’s deep connections with James Lofton were majestic.

 

Tom Flores: Downfield high priest Al Davis liked Flores as a starting quarterback and as a head coach. Flores twice led the AFL in yards per completion and won a Super Bowl ring as Len Dawson’s backup. Flores also won two Super Bowls as Raiders head coach, succeeding John Madden after seven years overseeing their receivers.


 

Here is what some had to say about Allen specifically:

BLAKE:: If I can sling it 60 yards but can’t hit nobody, then it doesn’t matter. That’s where Josh Allen is. He can throw the ball a mile, but he can’t hit nobody with it. So it’s ineffective.


BLAKE:: If you throw it on a line, it  to be a  throw, and your percentages go down. Josh Allen will hit one out of eight. When I put air under it, I’m going to hit eight out of 10 because it allows my receivers to speed up, slow down and adjust to make the catch.

 

BLAKE: You don’t throw the ball to a spot on a deep ball and tell the receiver “Go get it.” A lot of guys do that. I guarantee you a guy like Josh Allen is throwing the ball to a spot. No, you’re still throwing it to hit your receiver in stride. Nobody cares how far I can throw it. They care about how many completions I have.

 

 

 

What do you notice when you watch Josh Allen throw deep?

Whitfield: There’s only a handful of arms I’ve ever been around like his. Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, Matthew Stafford, Cam Newton, Josh Allen, some of these guys cans make these ridiculous, Indiana Jones, world-is-falling-apart throws. But his organization mechanically, especially the lower half, is still a work in progress.


Blake: I promise you I can fix it in five minutes because he hasn’t been taught how to do it right.

 

Moon: He’s one of those guys that can probably use more of those drills that emphasize touch on the ball. What I see with him is everything is a fastball on a line. He doesn’t put a lot of air on his balls down the field.

 

Dickey: There’s a difference between being a passer and a thrower. Anyone can throw it. Buffalo could be teaching him what to do and he just doesn’t have the talent to be an accurate deep passer.

 

Flores: NFL quarterbacks have been exposed to so much coaching by the time they’re drafted. They start earlier. They’re coached better. They go to quarterback camps every year, and they’re led by gurus that know what they’re talking about.

 

Dickey: It’s like Mitch Trubisky. He’s horrible with his accuracy. What, you draft a guy a say, “Well, we’ll fix him”? He had coaches in college, and even if he never did, you’d hope he’d try to figure it out on his own. You just can’t snap your fingers and make a guy accurate. I’ve never seen it, anyway.

 

Moon: You have to make a lot of different throws. It’s great to have the arm for a fastball, but how often do you really need it? It’s more important to have an accurate arm. That’s where Josh needs to improve the different speeds on his throws. He doesn’t have that yet.


Whitfield: Imagine if he was a cannon shooting off a canoe. His cannon is going to fire with gusto, but that wobbly canoe is going to make him miss. You take that weapon and put it on an aircraft carrier? Night night.

 

Take somethings with a grain of salt because some of these guys I can tell don’t look at all of Josh Allen plays but the article itself goes in more detail about throw the deep ball more effectively. BTW it seems like Jeff Blake really wants to work with Allen. If I was Allen I would give Blake 5 mins of my time lol. Dickey just does think Allen can improve.


 

 

Edited by Protocal69
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If I were Allen, I wouldn’t waste 5 minutes listening to a guy that crested 3,000 yards twice in 9 seasons as a starter and had a career completion percentage of 56.4.

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eh, this is pretty much what everyone has said about Allen and his deep passing - not enough arc on throws and poor lower body mechanics at times.

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Tom Flores is misinformed about Allen’s development curve. 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

If I were Allen, I wouldn’t waste 5 minutes listening to a guy that crested 3,000 yards twice in 9 seasons as a starter and had a career completion percentage of 56.4.

But had one of the best deep balls in NFL History. BTW his current QB coach has 66 yards passing in his whole CAREER

Edited by Protocal69
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Warren Moon seems to have the same opinion as me. So I’ll say I like what he said 😂 seemed spot on 

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Talk.  Talk.  Talk.

 

Three years ago, the critics were saying that Josh Allen would be a total bust in the NFL.  The Bills should have drafted Josh Rosen instead.

While inconsistent, Allen showed lots of promise as a rookie.  At times, he totally took over games with his legs (Minnesota, Miami), while showing incredible leadership and a knack for making big plays late in games.  Rosen was the one who was a complete disaster.

 

So last offseason, the experts did everything to downplay what Allen was doing well.  Who cares about his athletic ability, his arm or his leadership?  The focus quickly shifted to what he was doing poorly, specifically his struggles with pocket presence and mid/short-range accuracy.  They said he would always be a gunslinger, who would struggle with these kinds of throws.  Allen responded by putting in work, and vastly improving in both of these areas.  

 

So now the goalpost has moved again.  Now Allen will NEVER SUCCEED unless he improves his deep ball.  

I guess we'll see...  But I seem to recall that Allen began hitting more and more of these passes in the final quarter of the season.  Specifically in the New England game.

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Protocal69 said:

But had one of the best deep balls in NFL History. BTW his current QB coach has 66 yards passing in his whole CAREER


Point is, Blake is speaking from a position of authority about how it takes more than an arm, and you need to be accurate.

 

To do what, Jeff? You had “the best” deep ball ever, and what did it get you? 2 above average seasons out of 9. I’m not sure he should speak so strongly.

 

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Towards the end of the year, when Josh hit a few of those deeper passes, he was doing exactly what Moon said. He took some of the mustard off, put a little more air under the ball, and it was on a dime. The throw to John Brown against the Pats is a perfect example. 

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3 minutes ago, H2o said:

Towards the end of the year, when Josh hit a few of those deeper passes, he was doing exactly what Moon said. He took some of the mustard off, put a little more air under the ball, and it was on a dime. The throw to John Brown against the Pats is a perfect example. 

 

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18 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

Talk.  Talk.  Talk.

 

Three years ago, the critics were saying that Josh Allen would be a total bust in the NFL.  The Bills should have drafted Josh Rosen instead.

While inconsistent, Allen showed lots of promise as a rookie.  At times, he totally took over games with his legs (Minnesota, Miami), while showing incredible leadership and a knack for making big plays late in games.  Rosen was the one who was a complete disaster.

 

So last offseason, the experts did everything to downplay what Allen was doing well.  Who cares about his athletic ability, his arm or his leadership?  The focus quickly shifted to what he was doing poorly, specifically his struggles with pocket presence and mid/short-range accuracy.  They said he would always be a gunslinger, who would struggle with these kinds of throws.  Allen responded by putting in work, and vastly improving in both of these areas.  

 

So now the goalpost has moved again.  Now Allen will NEVER SUCCEED unless he improves his deep ball.  

I guess we'll see...  But I seem to recall that Allen began hitting more and more of these passes in the final quarter of the season.  Specifically in the New England game.

 

 

 


yeah, what MJS said.  Just kidding, but you’re right on point.  All of these analysts and critics don’t even watch most of our games.  They will have to this year.  It’s one of the reasons I refuse to watch ESPN NFL anymore.  These baffoons do not even speak accurately about Allen or our team.  They finally have to no with the number of prime time and 4 pm games we have and the buzz on our team.

 

Im not saying Allen is all world, but moreso the jury is out but promising.  This year should help with all of this garbage.  They just don’t have anything else to talk about with this pandemic and almost no sports.

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Same stuff they said about Cam , up until NE took him and apparently he is now the “ Second coming”🤔

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I think Allen can be this accurate with his aim.............

 

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Posted (edited)

His deep passes were almost always overthrows, which is something I lay squarely at the feet of McDermott. It was such a stark contrast to how he threw them in his rookie year that there's no way it was a coincidence and I'd bet anything he was instructed to minimize the chances of an interception by his ultra conservative coach. McDermott really needs to take the training wheels off this season and figure out if Allen really is the guy for everyone's sake, including his own.

Edited by QB Bills
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Jeff Blake missed on deep balls way way too frequently to be talking here.   

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Posted (edited)

I don't disagree with the folks who say Allen needs to put a little more air under the ball.  

 

But here's something else I thought all season long last year.  Allen looks like a guy who's afraid to throw a pick.  His deep balls tend to be overthrown.  It's as if he's throwing to spot he know the DB can't get to, instead of a spot the receiver can.

 

This happens when a QB is coached hard about ball security.  Or when a QB throws a bad pick and then gets gun shy.  I'm not sure what happened to JA but I'm convinced he puts just a little extra on the ball when he releases it to make sure it's not picked off because it was underthrown. 

 

It might not even be a conscious thing.  In fact, it's probably not.  But it's there.

 

Oops - just saw that QB Bills posted the same thought a couple minutes ago.  Great minds think alike!

Edited by hondo in seattle
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8 minutes ago, H2o said:

Towards the end of the year, when Josh hit a few of those deeper passes, he was doing exactly what Moon said. He took some of the mustard off, put a little more air under the ball, and it was on a dime. The throw to John Brown against the Pats is a perfect example. 

 

AND the one to JB vs. the Broncos and the one to Knox vs. Pats.  He was definitely in a slump but showed signs of coming out of it late in the year.  My theory is that it was a toxic brew of being conscious of not under throwing it for an int, battling with swirling wind conditions in home games and having too much variation in how he can get a ball 60+ yards down the field.  For many their only choice is optimum angle and max velocity but for Josh there is a range of angles and launch velocities that he can use.  

 

I do not recall seeing/hearing about this problem at Wyoming, his rookie NFL year or during 2019 training camp reports.  So I hope it was just a slump.

 

I did have a suggestion for them.  That technology used in the MLB and PGA coverage to track balls in flight would be great to have in a  football practice.  Give all their QBs immediate feedback on launch angles and velocities vs. time of flight and the ground the receiver covers.  Find the variance and self calibrate.

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Posted (edited)

It is a difficult thing to track a ball over one's shoulder while running full speed.  For much of its flight the ball can be seen with only one eye.  Most of us have a dominant eye as it is.  Cole had one hit him in the helmet vs. the Jets and go through his hands vs. the Ravens and I think he has trouble seeing it so he can't really adjust to it.   I haven't seen much of the video about Diggs but I suspect he might be elite at seeing it and adjusting to it.  Probably far better at it than anyone running with him (the old mantra about DBs that if they could catch they would be WRs.)   Once Josh and Stefon get to work, it may become obvious that all Josh has to is put it close, let Diggs track and adjust to it and make the DB look clueless.  All of a sudden Josh is a more accurate thrower.

 

PS I think John Brown is very good at it too and Foster seems shaky at it.

Edited by JESSEFEFFER
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

Talk.  Talk.  Talk.

 

Three years ago, the critics were saying that Josh Allen would be a total bust in the NFL.  The Bills should have drafted Josh Rosen instead.

While inconsistent, Allen showed lots of promise as a rookie.  At times, he totally took over games with his legs (Minnesota, Miami), while showing incredible leadership and a knack for making big plays late in games.  Rosen was the one who was a complete disaster.

 

So last offseason, the experts did everything to downplay what Allen was doing well.  Who cares about his athletic ability, his arm or his leadership?  The focus quickly shifted to what he was doing poorly, specifically his struggles with pocket presence and mid/short-range accuracy.  They said he would always be a gunslinger, who would struggle with these kinds of throws.  Allen responded by putting in work, and vastly improving in both of these areas.  

 

So now the goalpost has moved again.  Now Allen will NEVER SUCCEED unless he improves his deep ball.  

I guess we'll see...  But I seem to recall that Allen began hitting more and more of these passes in the final quarter of the season.  Specifically in the New England game.

 

 

 

I thought his deep ball was pretty good the year before especially with Foster. 
 

I remember hearing somewhere that the coaches are not so much concerned as other factors did play a part such as oline breakdown and  the receivers not hitting  their spot. 

But of course he will have to improve on his end.

 

You watch I wouldn’t be surprised he he is one of the better deep throwers this year with his work ethic. 

Edited by loveorhatembillsfan4life
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37 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

I don't disagree with the folks who say Allen needs to put a little more air under the ball.  

 

But here's something else I thought all season long last year.  Allen looks like a guy who's afraid to throw a pick.  His deep balls tend to be overthrown.  It's as if he's throwing to spot he know the DB can't get to, instead of a spot the receiver can.

 

This happens when a QB is coached hard about ball security.  Or when a QB throws a bad pick and then gets gun shy.  I'm not sure what happened to JA but I'm convinced he puts just a little extra on the ball when he releases it to make sure it's not picked off because it was underthrown. 

 

It might not even be a conscious thing.  In fact, it's probably not.  But it's there.

 

Oops - just saw that QB Bills posted the same thought a couple minutes ago.  Great minds think alike!


Nailed it Hondo.  I was thinking the same thing.  It’s almost not on his own like Tyrod, but so concerned not having a pick, they probably rattled him, and then he tries to play hero ball in other ways.  If the coaches believe in him, then let him do his thing and reassure him not to worry about it, and let his talent do their thing.

 

A lot of what I saw last year was the former, and relying on him and the RB’s including McKenzie (I know he’s a WR, but he ran some end around gadget runs kind of like JB) to win games, and thus 19 pts. Per game, vs. taking some chances.  If he was set loose throwing for 3300 yards maybe with an extra pick or two, but also a strong running game (a business decision - sorry I love that in Moss) will result in a very good offense.  Maybe not the best, but a top 3-5 defense, and let’s say top 13-14 offense.  That’s not inconceivable at all.

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