Bill O'Brien will kneel...JJ Watt says kneeling is no disrespect to the flag or military

[Troll Toll]

How long are they going to try to argue that the “Star Spangled Banner” isn’t about the flag? lol, football players are ######ed.

[Ecmic82]

5 minutes ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

Errr...what?

 

I thought that the excessive force used by a police officer on a black man was the root cause of current social unrest.

 

Where are you getting your news from?

That's not a root cause. It's a symptomatic effect.

[Arkady Renko]

12 hours ago, K-9 said:

Why is it that some people just can’t accept everyone’s explanation for why they are taking a knee? Clearly no disrespect is intended yet some people are intent on being offended. Why the insistence, the need, to make it about something it isn’t? It’s a lot more than, “It’s my flag, it’s my country, it’s my military.” Some sort of psychological phenomenon is at play here.

 

Kaepernick said he was doing it because he didn't have pride in his country because of how the country oppresses people of color.  I understand why he feels that way.  But I don't know why it's so hard to see that some people who do have pride in their country are hurt by that.  The anthem used to be about national unity.  Now it has become yet another culture war battlefield.  Seems unfortunate to me. 

 

I also think Kaepernick is getting too much credit for the change in the national mood.  The mood would have changed without him kneeling. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Arkady Renko

[SydneyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Ecmic82 said:

That's not a root cause. It's a symptomatic effect.

 

I disagree.

 

There is absolutely NO link between an irrational individual's behaviour and corporate greed / power.

 

None whatsoever.

 

This whole thing has descended into a virtue-signalling farce.

[Ecmic82]

1 minute ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

I disagree.

 

There is absolutely NO link between an irrational individual's behaviour and corporate greed / power.

 

None whatsoever.

 

This whole thing has descended into a virtue-signalling farce.

That's all noise to my point.

 

I'm saying you're wrong that the root cause of current protest is "the excessive force used by a police officer on a black man."

 

That is not the root cause.

[Rob's House]

5 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Oh man this conversation is getting weird. If you don’t agree that athletes have a larger platform than 99.99% of the population you aren’t smart. That’s not up for debate. It’s a fact. That’s all that I ever said. The reason that their voices matter is because they have an audience.

 

This supports the position that they can use their platform to speak while they're not on the field.

 

NFL players have far greater reach through traditional and social media, through which they can share their views.

 

If he weren't in the NFL no one would give a rat's ass what Colin Kaepernick had to say about anything. But the celebrity status he enjoys because he played in the NFL gives him an exponentially larger audience than his intellectual acumen would ever afford him.

 

I don't understand why that isn't enough and we have to be subjected to their already overexposed opinions on game day.

 

 

[SydneyBillsFan]

10 minutes ago, Ecmic82 said:

That's all noise to my point.

 

I'm saying you're wrong that the root cause of current protest is "the excessive force used by a police officer on a black man."

 

That is not the root cause.

 

Then I'll respectfully agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[nedboy7]

2 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

This supports the position that they can use their platform to speak while they're not on the field.

 

NFL players have far greater reach through traditional and social media, through which they can share their views.

 

If he weren't in the NFL no one would give a rat's ass what Colin Kaepernick had to say about anything. But the celebrity status he enjoys because he played in the NFL gives him an exponentially larger audience than his intellectual acumen would ever afford him.

 

I don't understand why that isn't enough and we have to be subjected to their already overexposed opinions on game day.

 

 

 

Yes.  You are quite the victim.  How do you survive thru game day?? 

2 hours ago, Cal said:

A lot of anti-Americans on here. Sad.

 

Is an anti-American someone who doesn't agree with you? 

[Ecmic82]

8 minutes ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

Then I'll respectfully agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I mean, if you think all the social anxiety and unrest that we're now witnessing has it's origin in the George Floyd killing, and that none of those feelings of unrest existed in America before George Floyd's murder (the literal definition of a root cause), then yeah, we're going to disagree on that. Common ground isn't going to be found.

 

Pretty much all the ingredients that went into producing the current climate predate Floyd's murder. 

 

Floyd's murder was a tipping point, not a root cause.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Ecmic82

[Rob's House]

7 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

 

Yes.  You are quite the victim.  How do you survive thru game day?? 

 

Cool story, bro. Sorry to have triggered you.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Ecmic82 said:

I mean, if you think all the social anxiety and unrest that we're now witnessing has it's origin in the George Floyd killing, and that none of those feelings of unrest existed in America before George Floyd's murder (the literal definition of a root cause), then yeah, we're going to disagree on that. Common ground isn't going to be found.

 

Pretty much all the ingredients that went into producing the current climate predate Floyd's murder. 

 

Floyd's murder was a tipping point, not a root cause.

 

This.  I think for many people, myself among them - in many earlier cases we saw ambiguity.  We lived as the focal point for a couple major sessions of social unrest here in St Louis.  Mike Brown - forensic evidence - yeah OK maybe use of force justified at the point the shooting took place?  Lamar Smith - he was a suspect drug dealer who led the police on a dangerous high speed chase - maybe he had a gun?  etc etc etc. 

We have relatives and friends and relatives of friends who were or are police officers.  We generally support the police.  We want to give them the benefit of doubt.  So we don't get involved, or we say "OK, but it's a few bad apples"

 

The video of 8+ minutes of a LEO kneeling on Floyd's neck while 3 others hold him down are very very hard to watch.  There is no benefit of doubt to be given, and the fact that they had so many prior incidents and are still on the force - it's a real "wake up and look at what's been going on" moment for a lot of people.

 

 If there are bad apples, too many law enforcement agencies are clearly not succeeding at getting them out of the bushel on their own

 

I agree, it's a tipping point where many people who've been on the sidelines are moved to action.

[BillsFan2313]

1 hour ago, Ecmic82 said:

I mean, if you think all the social anxiety and unrest that we're now witnessing has it's origin in the George Floyd killing, and that none of those feelings of unrest existed in America before George Floyd's murder (the literal definition of a root cause), then yeah, we're going to disagree on that. Common ground isn't going to be found.

 

Pretty much all the ingredients that went into producing the current climate predate Floyd's murder. 

 

Floyd's murder was a tipping point, not a root cause.

 

It's baffling that people don't realize this. 

 

Hey, silent protesting. Pshhh that's disrespectful 

 

Rioting. Pshh, that's not going to do anything, their should be another way to protest. 

 

Now talk, back to silent protesting, now people are up in arms. It's amazing.

[leonbus23]

Is it still a protest if everybody kneels? 

It seems that if real American hero Watt kneels, it kind of deflates the whole thing. 

Because, while categorically Watt and the like may be against police brutality, I don't think they're for any real systemic change. 

 

[JoPoy88]

7 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

It's baffling that people don't realize this. 

 

Hey, silent protesting. Pshhh that's disrespectful 

 

Rioting. Pshh, that's not going to do anything, their should be another way to protest. 

 

Now talk, back to silent protesting, now people are up in arms. It's amazing.

this is a very good point - the people condemning the protests don’t seem to ever offer an actionable alternative. They look and point and say those protesters, kaepernick, all the rest are “bad americans” and hate our country. I never see people like @Cal or anyone else proposing an alternative for these people.

 

once again, kaepernick took that time and place and form to protest because it offered visibility to his cause. He never intended any direct attack on our military, our flag or our country in general. He’s said as much himself. The fact that many of you disregard his intent and take offense anyways is, frankly, your problem. 

[BillsFan2313]

6 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

this is a very good point - the people condemning the protests don’t seem to ever offer an actionable alternative. They look and point and say those protesters, kaepernick, all the rest are “bad americans” and hate our country. I never see people like @Cal or anyone else proposing an alternative for these people.

 

once again, kaepernick took that time and place and form to protest because it offered visibility to his cause. He never intended any direct attack on our military, our flag or our country in general. He’s said as much himself. The fact that many of you disregard his intent and take offense anyways is, frankly, your problem. 

 

 

Well said 

[Da webster guy]

19 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

There's nothing more American than allowing players to kneel during the national anthem. "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." 

 

A smart move for the NFL after the National Anthem would be to ask everybody in the stadium (including the players) to rise and have 15 seconds of silence to honor the brave men and women in the military to honor those who are serving/have served or died defending this country.

 

great post.

 

I'll add that kneeling shows reverence and respect.  We kneel when a player gets hurt or in church etc.

It's not like talking through the national anthem or staying seated.   

 

Furthermore, it's possible to show respect to your country but also kneel in support of making it a better place.   When people start spewing hatred toward those kneeling because they fought in a war or feel it's disrespectful to the military, they'll likely never change their view on it, but as you say Doc, if you think it through, that's exactly what we were fighting for since America began.

[JetsFan20]

3 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

this is a very good point - the people condemning the protests don’t seem to ever offer an actionable alternative. They look and point and say those protesters, kaepernick, all the rest are “bad americans” and hate our country. I never see people like @Cal or anyone else proposing an alternative for these people.

 

once again, kaepernick took that time and place and form to protest because it offered visibility to his cause. He never intended any direct attack on our military, our flag or our country in general. He’s said as much himself. The fact that many of you disregard his intent and take offense anyways is, frankly, your problem. 

We have gotten to a point where it is now appropriate for public companies to support the BLM movement. Three years ago when the kneeling started BLM was not nearly as mainstream and considered somewhat radical/controversial. 
 

Goodell and the NFL owners are no different than Jeff Bezos and Amazon. They will absolutely still do business with the military and police departments (security in stadiums), but feel we are at a point in which support of the movement is now necessary in the eyes of the public.
 

Again-the whole kneeling situation a couple of years ago was blown completely out of proportion and just provided more evidence as to how out of touch NFL owners were. In a league where roughly 70 percent of the players are young black men they should have embraced it from the beginning. 

 

[GregPersons]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This.  I think for many people, myself among them - in many earlier cases we saw ambiguity.  We lived as the focal point for a couple major sessions of social unrest here in St Louis.  Mike Brown - forensic evidence - yeah OK maybe use of force justified at the point the shooting took place?  Lamar Smith - he was a suspect drug dealer who led the police on a dangerous high speed chase - maybe he had a gun?  etc etc etc. 

We have relatives and friends and relatives of friends who were or are police officers.  We generally support the police.  We want to give them the benefit of doubt.  So we don't get involved, or we say "OK, but it's a few bad apples"

 

The video of 8+ minutes of a LEO kneeling on Floyd's neck while 3 others hold him down are very very hard to watch.  There is no benefit of doubt to be given, and the fact that they had so many prior incidents and are still on the force - it's a real "wake up and look at what's been going on" moment for a lot of people.

 

 If there are bad apples, too many law enforcement agencies are clearly not succeeding at getting them out of the bushel on their own

 

I agree, it's a tipping point where many people who've been on the sidelines are moved to action.

 

I agree, thanks for sharing in a kind of personal way because I do think it's important to realize this is a process of learning & unlearning... there is a such thing as American propaganda, it's foolish for us to think otherwise, and obviously the enforcement officers of the state would be something that any citizen of any country would be given ample reason to believe are heroes. Your thought process describes my reaction as well. I do feel like I was tipped further, radicalized further, and forced to consider/confront a lot of things that I "sort of" knew but had not given full consideration. Like most of us here I have the privilege to not think about race or to be worried about police brutality on an individual level. 

 

And while I knew that police brutality and injustice was reality, I now realize I vastly underestimated how deep the roots go, and I think if/when we begin to really confront some very difficult truths, then frankly a lot of things click into place in a sharper clarity. My view of police and racism in America has gone from a 90s box top to 1080p HD 4K.... I am much clearer on what is happening, what has been happening, and why it was so easy to ignore before. There's a history of intentional government diversion tactics, like COINTELPRO, the effects of which are ongoing today. From the way we talk about it, to the way conversations are framed and distorted. It's the same story every time. James Baldwin talked about it 60 years ago, it is the same story today. I am horrified and embarrassed and feel betrayed by ... my/our fathers/grandfathers for being complicit, for not doing more to do the morally right thing. I think this is a winnable war. Maybe not this generation. But racism and oppression and fascism don't need to exist. Especially in the RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION... it's unimaginable that there are families uncertain if they'll have money to feed their families in August. Elon Musk is working on flying to Mars. This seems tangential, but it's all connected. America could take care of its people. Universal Healthcare and Unviersal Basic Income are things supported by both left & right, but not really by anyone elected in government. There's just no reason not to anymore. It's time to call the bluff. It's time to stop the looting from the mega-rich and simply "re-distribute" the wealth in the other direction. For ONCE. Because we've been trying "trickle down global economy" for a couple generations now and I don't think it's working so well.

 

It's hard to believe how oblivious I/we all have been up until now. Because it seems so obvious now. And BIPOC were saying so. But the reality is that white people can afford for race to be "theoretical" while imposing it as a practical reality on minorities. Most white people don't really feel like there's a "white culture" really; other than the KKK, most white people I know don't feel like "white" is really part of their identity in the way that Black or Latino would be. White people identities are more based on their beliefs or activities; I'm talking in terms of cultural perception. You've never heard of "white on white crime" but wouldn't that be, idk, most serial killers & school shootings? White criminals even are celebrated; the Confederacy only lasted 5 years ... basically the amount of time Rob Johnson spent as a Bills QB... and this is an identity. Mafia -- Bills Mafia -- this is okay because it's white. "Bills Bloods" or "Bills MS-13" probably wouldn't go over so well, right? Well, what's the difference?? Again it's all obvious, it's like the FedEx arrow, or a magic eye trick... it's something that once you see it, it is obvious in so many places, in so many forms.

 

Anyway. I saw this going around on social — it's anonymous so take it for what you will — confessions of a former cop in a Medium article.

Quote

In fact, let me tell you about an extremely formative experience: in my police academy class, we had a clique of around six trainees who routinely bullied and harassed other students: intentionally scuffing another trainee’s shoes to get them in trouble during inspection, sexually harassing female trainees, cracking racist jokes, and so on. Every quarter, we were to write anonymous evaluations of our squadmates. I wrote scathing accounts of their behavior, thinking I was helping keep bad apples out of law enforcement and believing I would be protected. Instead, the academy staff read my complaints to them out loud and outed me to them and never punished them, causing me to get harassed for the rest of my academy class. That’s how I learned that even police leadership hates rats. That’s why no one is “changing things from the inside.” They can’t, the structure won’t allow it.

 

Also, the Dave Chappelle special (posted in Off Topic forum) reminded me about the Christopher Dorner story and I see it in a new light, even more tragic than it already was, which was already incredibly tragic. He wasn't "insane" in the sense of being unclear about his actions. He was "depressed" to suicide; he was left without hope. He was pushed to an extreme amount of violence. I'm not excusing it. I'm saying it was preventable. He tried. People wouldn't listen. And his story was so distorted, it's hard to look again at his "manifesto" and not just feel renewed anger at the structural failures that led to this. Dorner is something people struggle with because, while his actions were evil and wrong, his reasons and justifications and feelings were not. That can be hard for us to hold in their heads, I guess. And I remember following it at the time with the perverse interest of a car chase. It was insane living in Los Angeles for those days/week or so. I remember LAPD shooting an innocent mail carrier because they misidentified the van. I remember a few years ago the LAPD agitating the stand-off at Trader Joe's, also shooting and killing an innocent bystander. The suspect gave up willingly because the employees of TJs talked him down.

 

"All cops are bastards" is talking about the institution. On a human level, of course there are good people who happen to be police officers. There's also good people who happen to be MS-13 gang members, I'm sure. Both organizations behave the same. One has the law, the other doesn't. That's just the simple reality behind all of the pretense. 

 

The propaganda of non-stop cop stories that all of us love... every single one of us has a favorite cop TV show, cop character, cop movie, cop book series, cop video game character.... and they'd be different people/characters, too, for each one. There's so much propaganda in American media that we just don't question. The reality is police do very little. They do so much LESS than we all assumed. They deal with noise complaints, they settle disagreements, they write tickets. Otherwise they look for trouble and harass people; the amount of dangerous situations these officers are supposedly placed in — I think we're all calling BS. It seems like these "dangerous situations" are dangerous because of the police, not in spite of them.

 

They are civil servants cosplaying as Storm Troopers. They're not soldiers. The #1 immediate thing is to end police immunity. Defund the police. And end immunity. Nobody should be above the law. Including law enforcement. That shouldn't be controversial. And yet!!

Edited June 15, 2020 by GregPersons

[GregPersons]

1 hour ago, JetsFan20 said:

We have gotten to a point where it is now appropriate for public companies to support the BLM movement. Three years ago when the kneeling started BLM was not nearly as mainstream and considered somewhat radical/controversial. 
 

Goodell and the NFL owners are no different than Jeff Bezos and Amazon. They will absolutely still do business with the military and police departments (security in stadiums), but feel we are at a point in which support of the movement is now necessary in the eyes of the public.
 

Again-the whole kneeling situation a couple of years ago was blown completely out of proportion and just provided more evidence as to how out of touch NFL owners were. In a league where roughly 70 percent of the players are young black men they should have embraced it from the beginning. 

 

 

Yup. 

 

If nothing else, it's a clear example of how the NFL is unable to do anything but chase the curve. They had a great opportunity to be an ally from the beginning. They could've amplified Black Lives Matter like they do with Breast Cancer and Veteran Salute or whatever other causes the NFL sanctioned. They could've come away from this with renewed respect -- it would've been a little rocky with the MAGA people but the NFL would've been just fine. These people boycott every thing constantly, and it never matters. How many times have they boycotted Starbucks? How are they doing? 

 

That the NFL couldn't get behind BLM is grotesque in hindsight. The phrase is so clear and so obvious, too, it's just... ugh. It's not a debate. It's a magnifying glass on hate and prejudice, on racism. They do or they don't. America/ns care, or don't. The NFL, with all of the access in the world to black voices and already a supposed commitment to community work, couldn't just get on board. They were too afraid of the police.

 

So, if everybody is afraid of speaking up against the police, what does that say about where we're at? It feels like a society where you have to perform demonstrative respect to cops on a regular basis, to give them absurd amounts of money we donate to them through taxes, and also aren't able to criticize it without getting death threats.... yeah that seems about what a police state would be.

[JetsFan20]

17 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

Yup. 

 

If nothing else, it's a clear example of how the NFL is unable to do anything but chase the curve. They had a great opportunity to be an ally from the beginning. They could've amplified Black Lives Matter like they do with Breast Cancer and Veteran Salute or whatever other causes the NFL sanctioned. They could've come away from this with renewed respect -- it would've been a little rocky with the MAGA people but the NFL would've been just fine. These people boycott every thing constantly, and it never matters. How many times have they boycotted Starbucks? How are they doing? 

 

That the NFL couldn't get behind BLM is grotesque in hindsight. The phrase is so clear and so obvious, too, it's just... ugh. It's not a debate. It's a magnifying glass on hate and prejudice, on racism. They do or they don't. America/ns care, or don't. The NFL, with all of the access in the world to black voices and already a supposed commitment to community work, couldn't just get on board. They were too afraid of the police.

 

So, if everybody is afraid of speaking up against the police, what does that say about where we're at? It feels like a society where you have to perform demonstrative respect to cops on a regular basis, to give them absurd amounts of money we donate to them through taxes, and also aren't able to criticize it without getting death threats.... yeah that seems about what a police state would be.

A lot of these cops are pawns in all this. I blame the municipalities and department leadership whom view good police work as number of arrests/citations issued. Unlike housing/social programs municipalities make some money back off cops. 
 

Take the situation in GA for example. That kid didn’t need to be arrested. Leave the car in the parking lot and tell him to find his way home. 

[GregPersons]

16 minutes ago, JetsFan20 said:

A lot of these cops are pawns in all this. I blame the municipalities and department leadership whom view good police work as number of arrests/citations issued. Unlike housing/social programs municipalities make some money back off cops. 
 

Take the situation in GA for example. That kid didn’t need to be arrested. Leave the car in the parking lot and tell him to find his way home. 

 

Yeah. It's bad. The rot goes to the core. That's why "defund" and "abolish" are the right terms. This is a negotiation of how a major part of society works. Incementalism has been given more than a fair chance. It's time to think bigger, and to start remember the American history and what is possible. 

 

Teddy Roosevelt. He was police, and a reformer. Created national parks. Did a lot of good things, including, breaking up the corporate monopolies of the gilded age. We need that ALLLLLLLLL over America. We need the massive corporations and monopolies broken up. And we need it on government organizations like the police that have absurd budgets and yield little value.

 

We're all investors, right? Taxes pay for this. What I'm seeing from police locally and nationally.... that's where you get into taxation without representation. I don't want another dime going toward police in their current form. I want results that de-escalate, that improve people's lives. All they do is destroy. Rayshard Brooks should not have died. We shouldn't know these names. We know so many of them. We've forgotten even more, because it's impossible to keep up. And.... NOTHING... is being done. 3 weeks straight, protests nationwide, America very clearly demanding change.... and instead, somehow.... Rayshard Brooks is harrassed with a taser for sleeping in his car (if Universal Basic Income and Universal Healthcare, this isn't a problem; there's a reason upper middle class people aren't robbing liquor stores; desperation creates crime), and then he has the human instinct to not want to be tasered and protects himself. For this, because of the threat -- the EXACT threat, less in fact, that the officers posed to him with the taser -- that justified them shooting him to death. And yet, he would not be justified in standing his ground and shooting them to death once they produced the taser, would he?

 

Do they think we are not seeing through this crap? 

 

 

Anybody who isn't genuinely pissed off about this stuff is pretty suspect to me.  This should be unacceptable to anybody who takes any amount of pride in any kind of American identity or any ideas of freedom equality liberty etc.  If they don't apply to every American, then they're meaningless, it's a lie, everybody's all died in vain for no good cause. Or they do apply to everybody. 

 

Things are pretty f---ed, but in a weird way, I have more hope than ever before. Because I see the rage in other peoples eyes too, and that feeling that this time is different. This time there's no stopping. Why stop now? For what reason? To do what else, instead? Where else would you rather be, than right here, right now, fighting for this cause?

 

That last bit might be lost on you as a gangrene sufferer; it's a tweak on a Marv Levy quote.

Edited June 15, 2020 by GregPersons

[oldmanfan]

16 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

Yeah. It's bad. The rot goes to the core. That's why "defund" and "abolish" are the right terms. This is a negotiation of how a major part of society works. Incementalism has been given more than a fair chance. It's time to think bigger, and to start remember the American history and what is possible. 

 

Teddy Roosevelt. He was police, and a reformer. Created national parks. Did a lot of good things, including, breaking up the corporate monopolies of the gilded age. We need that ALLLLLLLLL over America. We need the massive corporations and monopolies broken up. And we need it on government organizations like the police that have absurd budgets and yield little value.

 

We're all investors, right? Taxes pay for this. What I'm seeing from police locally and nationally.... that's where you get into taxation without representation. I don't want another dime going toward police in their current form. I want results that de-escalate, that improve people's lives. All they do is destroy. Rayshard Brooks should not have died. We shouldn't know these names. We know so many of them. We've forgotten even more, because it's impossible to keep up. And.... NOTHING... is being done. 3 weeks straight, protests nationwide, America very clearly demanding change.... and instead, somehow.... Rayshard Brooks is harrassed with a taser for sleeping in his car (if Universal Basic Income and Universal Healthcare, this isn't a problem; there's a reason upper middle class people aren't robbing liquor stores; desperation creates crime), and then he has the human instinct to not want to be tasered and protects himself. For this, because of the threat -- the EXACT threat, less in fact, that the officers posed to him with the taser -- that justified them shooting him to death. And yet, he would not be justified in standing his ground and shooting them to death once they produced the taser, would he?

 

Do they think we are not seeing through this crap? 

 

 

Anybody who isn't genuinely pissed off about this stuff is pretty suspect to me.  This should be unacceptable to anybody who takes any amount of pride in any kind of American identity or any ideas of freedom equality liberty etc.  If they don't apply to every American, then they're meaningless, it's a lie, everybody's all died in vain for no good cause. Or they do apply to everybody. 

 

Things are pretty f---ed, but in a weird way, I have more hope than ever before. Because I see the rage in other peoples eyes too, and that feeling that this time is different. This time there's no stopping. Why stop now? For what reason? To do what else, instead? Where else would you rather be, than right here, right now, fighting for this cause?

 

That last bit might be lost on you as a gangrene sufferer; it's a tweak on a Marv Levy quote.

I get the protests.  What happened to George Floyd is unconscionable.  The Brooks thing is a bit different.  He was not hassled with a taser.  He was driving drunk.  From the video the officers were doing their job, asked permission to frisk him and such.  The situation escalated when he started fighting.  No, he did not have to be shot.  But if he had just not fought a legitimate arrest he’d be alive.

 

Reform policing?  Sure.  Getting more mental health folks and such to deal with certain issues?  Sure.  Something like Camden NJ?  Looks like it worked there.Completely defund or abolish policing?  Anarchy.  Sometimes people of all colors commit crimes.  And police need to be there to protect us.

[GregPersons]

16 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I get the protests.  What happened to George Floyd is unconscionable.  The Brooks thing is a bit different.  He was not hassled with a taser.  He was driving drunk.  From the video the officers were doing their job, asked permission to frisk him and such.  The situation escalated when he started fighting.  No, he did not have to be shot.  But if he had just not fought a legitimate arrest he’d be alive.

 

Reform policing?  Sure.  Getting more mental health folks and such to deal with certain issues?  Sure.  Something like Camden NJ?  Looks like it worked there.Completely defund or abolish policing?  Anarchy.  Sometimes people of all colors commit crimes.  And police need to be there to protect us.

 

The cops didn't need to shoot him. They did not need to. They could have subdued him. They outnumbered him!!!! He had one weapon. They had several. They could've knocked it out of his hands with bully sticks, even.  It's not right to excuse it anymore.... I can't, personally. I've done it before; I get the urge to do it.  I think it is more than time to expect better.

 

What you're talking about, the reform, that is essentially abolishing/defunding if you just take it to its logical conclusion. You divide the services into specialist groups, instead of making "police" be every single different function. Sometimes, you do need a tactical shooting squad. But not as default. I don't buy it. I have seen 0 examples of cops using their guns to save a life that would not have otherwise been saved without the gun (not "they killed a guy who might've later killed a guy"). 

 

This also needs to happen in legislation — there's a lot of laws that are BS, we all know it.  There's a lot of laws that criminalize people for ***** that they have no control over; extremely mentally ill people. I've done some volunteering with homeless shelters in DTLA, and the amount of homeless veterans is unconsisnconable to me. One of the harshest examples of the way that America is a scam to take every individual for what they're worth and throw them away. It makes me sick if I think about it for long. 

 

Anyway. "Police" and "cops" and all of that really can be abolished. And we can improve the services even by replacing them more thoughtfully, and updated to our modern problems. Like, the real problems.  Just... wouldn't it be cool if people actually just got real for once??? And just admitted the hard truth about some of this stuff instead of dodging, delaying? If we are truly looking and listening and evaluating, the real problems are clear. And it's not a new problem, and so a lot of thought has already been put into how specific police and prison reforms and abolition actions would look like.

 

 

Tl;dr -- Even the most severe abolition efforts toward government services would not be nearly as drastic as is being imagined. It's not going to be "The Purge" -- in a way I think people are telling on themselves with this a bit, because it's like, well that's what you would want to do if there were no rules, maybe. But, this is where I am pro 2A -- it doesn't happen because people would be afraid that the other guy has a gun. That is what keeps everything in check more than the police. 

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

The cops didn't need to shoot him. They did not need to. They could have subdued him. They outnumbered him!!!! He had one weapon. They had several. They could've knocked it out of his hands with bully sticks, even.  It's not right to excuse it anymore.... I can't, personally. I've done it before; I get the urge to do it.  I think it is more than time to expect better.

 

What you're talking about, the reform, that is essentially abolishing/defunding if you just take it to its logical conclusion. You divide the services into specialist groups, instead of making "police" be every single different function. Sometimes, you do need a tactical shooting squad. But not as default. I don't buy it. I have seen 0 examples of cops using their guns to save a life that would not have otherwise been saved without the gun (not "they killed a guy who might've later killed a guy"). 

 

This also needs to happen in legislation — there's a lot of laws that are BS, we all know it.  There's a lot of laws that criminalize people for ***** that they have no control over; extremely mentally ill people. I've done some volunteering with homeless shelters in DTLA, and the amount of homeless veterans is unconsisnconable to me. One of the harshest examples of the way that America is a scam to take every individual for what they're worth and throw them away. It makes me sick if I think about it for long. 

 

Anyway. "Police" and "cops" and all of that really can be abolished. And we can improve the services even by replacing them more thoughtfully, and updated to our modern problems. Like, the real problems.  Just... wouldn't it be cool if people actually just got real for once??? And just admitted the hard truth about some of this stuff instead of dodging, delaying? If we are truly looking and listening and evaluating, the real problems are clear. And it's not a new problem, and so a lot of thought has already been put into how specific police and prison reforms and abolition actions would look like.

 

 

Tl;dr -- Even the most severe abolition efforts toward government services would not be nearly as drastic as is being imagined. It's not going to be "The Purge" -- in a way I think people are telling on themselves with this a bit, because it's like, well that's what you would want to do if there were no rules, maybe. But, this is where I am pro 2A -- it doesn't happen because people would be afraid that the other guy has a gun. That is what keeps everything in check more than the police. 

I said they didn’t need to shoot him.  But he’d be alive if he hadn’t fought the arrest.  And he was driving drunk.  I’m all for reforming policing but folks also need to realize they shouldn’t break the law.

  

Your statement that police and cops can be abolished is naive and potentially dangerous.  Again reform is absolutely necessary.  But claiming they can be abolished makes reformers look over-reactionary and you'll alienate those who want true reform.

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by oldmanfan

[bmur66]

Jim Brown respects the flag

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2790070-jim-brown-says-hed-never-kneel-during-anthem-wont-denigrate-my-flag?fbclid=IwAR1-egt8eBk6DoKnSfRA2FwfxizqVYlOTsfzvxw4uKAuwuHB77x7KGi6_O4

[GregPersons]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

I said they didn’t need to shoot him.  But he’d be alive if he hadn’t fought the arrest.  And he was driving drunk.  I’m all for reforming policing but folks also need to realize they shouldn’t break the law.

 

We agree they didn't need to shoot him. We disagree on how much you're willing to let the police off the hook and blame the person who was shot, like he had it coming. I disagree. I think his life was more valuable. His life had more value than his transgressions. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, GregPersons said:

 

We agree they didn't need to shoot him. We disagree on how much you're willing to let the police off the hook and blame the person who was shot, like he had it coming. I disagree. I think his life was more valuable. His life had more value than his transgressions. 

Do you agree he shouldn’t have been driving drunk?

[GregPersons]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Do you agree he shouldn’t have been driving drunk?

 

Yes, I agree. He should have received a citation. He may have even needed to sleep it off in a cell and pay a fine. At no point did it need to become any more violent than wrestling a drunk and depressed man to the ground. Outnumbering him 2 to 1 should be enough. They have clubs!!

 

I highly recommend reading this essay from a former police officer on why things like this happen. "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" is a motto and mindset that is drilled into cops to over-react and over-rely on firearms. It's not necessary, it's not right. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

21 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Do you agree he shouldn’t have been driving drunk?

 

22 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

We agree they didn't need to shoot him. We disagree on how much you're willing to let the police off the hook and blame the person who was shot, like he had it coming. I disagree. I think his life was more valuable. His life had more value than his transgressions. 

This isn't another George Floyd killing.  That was homicide, murder, or whatever they want to call it.  That was clear.  The incident in Atlanta was an entirely different situation. Did they have to shoot him?  Perhaps no.  Did he have to engage in a physical confrontation with the police?  Well no to that too.  So maybe, just maybe we need to stop making excuses for bad behavior.  A balanced view would be looking at both parties and assigning some shared responsibility for the outcome.  But right now everybody is automatically inclined to just place 100% of the responsibility on the cops.  They didn't stop this guy to hassle him because of his race.  They were called to the scene to check on some guy that fell asleep in the drive thru line of a Wendy's and was found to be driving drunk.  And what did the crowd that gathered do in response?  Well burn down the Wendy's.  Simply brilliant.       

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by All_Pro_Bills

[bmur66]

22 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I had an interesting conversation with a successful African-American business person I know about the current state of race relations and one topic was kneeling before the flag.   Their views were a lot different from the dominant narrative being played out almost everywhere.  And while they would hesitate to say these things publicly for fear of being attacked their insights opened my mind to viewing things from a lot of different angles.  Its goes like:

 

"From the perspective of a minority person I think blaming white racism for all the problems faced by African-American people and communities is blacks saying the white man has the power to decide our fate. And the only way things are going to get better for us is if white people become less racist and treat us better.  And white people joining in kneeling isn't so much joining us in the fight but rather them giving us their permission to try to improve our conditions.  The entire concept ignores the principles of free will & control of your own destiny and replaces that with a mindset of dependence. Other minorities that prosper in America don't have this mindset. Think about that?"

 

 

This sums up things very well. Great post and thank you.

[GregPersons]

Just now, All_Pro_Bills said:

 

This isn't another George Floyd killing.  That was homicide, murder, or whatever they want to call it.  That was clear.  The incident in Atlanta was an entirely different situation. Did they have to shoot him?  Perhaps no.  Did he have to engage in a physical confrontation with the police?  Well no to that too.  So maybe, just maybe we need to stop making excuses for bad behavior.  A balanced view would be looking at both parties and assigning some shared responsibility for the outcome.  But right now everybody is automatically inclined to just place 100% of the responsibility on the cops.  They didn't stop this guy to hassle him because of his race.  They were called to the scene to check on some guy that fell asleep in the drive thru line of a Wendy's and was found to be driving drunk.  And what did the crowd that gathered do in response?  Well burn down the Wendy's?  Simply brilliant.      

 

 

Here's the thing. We're all trained to assume the cops have the best intentions, even in spite of all of the evidence, simply as the default position. Why? 

 

We are all so certain we could never fall for propaganda. Why?? Cop propaganda is everywhere, and it is naive for to think our minds are so fixed that this doesn't have an impact on things. We all have a vision of this job that is not matching the lived reality. 

 

As to the police issue, this essay says everything, from the perspective of a former cop. It's anonymous, take it for what you will, we're all anonymous here too. https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

Quote

HOW DO YOU SOLVE A PROBLEM LIKE A BASTARD?
So what do we do about it? Even though I’m an expert on bastardism, I am not a public policy expert nor an expert in organizing a post-police society. So, before I give some suggestions, let me tell you what probably won’t solve the problem of bastard cops:

Increased “bias” training. A quarterly or even monthly training session is not capable of covering over years of trauma-based camaraderie in police forces. I can tell you from experience, we don’t take it seriously, the proctors let us cheat on whatever “tests” there are, and we all made fun of it later over coffee.
Tougher laws. I hope you understand by now, cops do not follow the law and will not hold each other accountable to the law. Tougher laws are all the more reason to circle the wagons and protect your brothers and sisters.
More community policing programs. Yes, there is a marginal effect when a few cops get to know members of the community, but look at the protests of 2020: many of the cops pepper-spraying journalists were probably the nice school cop a month ago.
Police officers do not protect and serve people, they protect and serve the status quo, “polite society”, and private property. Using the incremental mechanisms of the status quo will never reform the police because the status quo relies on police violence to exist. Capitalism requires a permanent underclass to exploit for cheap labor and it requires the cops to bring that underclass to heel.

Instead of wasting time with minor tweaks, I recommend exploring the following ideas:

No more qualified immunity. Police officers should be personally liable for all decisions they make in the line of duty.

No more civil asset forfeiture. Did you know that every year, citizens like you lose more cash and property to unaccountable civil asset forfeiture than to all burglaries combined? The police can steal your stuff without charging you with a crime and it makes some police departments very rich.

Break the power of police unions. Police unions make it nearly impossible to fire bad cops and incentivize protecting them to protect the power of the union. A police union is not a labor union; police officers are powerful state agents, not exploited workers.

Require malpractice insurance. Doctors must pay for insurance in case they botch a surgery, police officers should do the same for botching a police raid or other use of force. If human decency won’t motivate police to respect human life, perhaps hitting their wallet might.

Defund, demilitarize, and disarm cops. Thousands of police departments own assault rifles, armored personnel carriers, and stuff you’d see in a warzone. Police officers have grants and huge budgets to spend on guns, ammo, body armor, and combat training. 99% of calls for service require no armed response, yet when all you have is a gun, every problem feels like target practice. Cities are not safer when unaccountable bullies have a monopoly on state violence and the equipment to execute that monopoly.
One final idea: consider abolishing the police.

I know what you’re thinking, “What? We need the police! They protect us!” As someone who did it for nearly a decade, I need you to understand that by and large, police protection is marginal, incidental. It’s an illusion created by decades of copaganda designed to fool you into thinking these brave men and women are holding back the barbarians at the gates.

I alluded to this above: the vast majority of calls for service I handled were theft reports, burglary reports, domestic arguments that hadn’t escalated into violence, loud parties, (houseless) people loitering, traffic collisions, very minor drug possession, and arguments between neighbors. Mostly the mundane ups and downs of life in the community, with little inherent danger. And, like I mentioned, the vast majority of crimes I responded to (even violent ones) had already happened; my unaccountable license to kill was irrelevant.

What I mainly provided was an “objective” third party with the authority to document property damage, ask people to chill out or disperse, or counsel people not to beat each other up. A trained counselor or conflict resolution specialist would be ten times more effective than someone with a gun strapped to his hip wondering if anyone would try to kill him when he showed up. There are many models for community safety that can be explored if we get away from the idea that the only way to be safe is to have a man with a M4 rifle prowling your neighborhood ready at a moment’s notice to write down your name and birthday after you’ve been robbed and beaten.

You might be asking, “What about the armed robbers, the gangsters, the drug dealers, the serial killers?” And yes, in the city I worked, I regularly broke up gang parties, found gang members carrying guns, and handled homicides. I’ve seen some tragic things, from a reformed gangster shot in the head with his brains oozing out to a fifteen year old boy taking his last breath in his screaming mother’s arms thanks to a gang member’s bullet. I know the wages of violence.

This is where we have to have the courage to ask: why do people rob? Why do they join gangs? Why do they get addicted to drugs or sell them? It’s not because they are inherently evil. I submit to you that these are the results of living in a capitalist system that grinds people down and denies them housing, medical care, human dignity, and a say in their government. These are the results of white supremacy pushing people to the margins, excluding them, disrespecting them, and treating their bodies as disposable.
Equally important to remember: disabled and mentally ill people are frequently killed by police officers not trained to recognize and react to disabilities or mental health crises. Some of the people we picture as “violent offenders” are often people struggling with untreated mental illness, often due to economic hardships. Very frequently, the officers sent to “protect the community” escalate this crisis and ultimately wound or kill the person. Your community was not made safer by police violence; a sick member of your community was killed because it was cheaper than treating them. Are you extremely confident you’ll never get sick one day too?

Wrestle with this for a minute: if all of someone’s material needs were met and all the members of their community were fed, clothed, housed, and dignified, why would they need to join a gang? Why would they need to risk their lives selling drugs or breaking into buildings? If mental healthcare was free and was not stigmatized, how many lives would that save?

Would there still be a few bad actors in the world? Sure, probably. What’s my solution for them, you’re no doubt asking. I’ll tell you what: generational poverty, food insecurity, houselessness, and for-profit medical care are all problems that can be solved in our lifetimes by rejecting the dehumanizing meat grinder of capitalism and white supremacy. Once that’s done, we can work on the edge cases together, with clearer hearts not clouded by a corrupt system.

Police abolition is closely related to the idea of prison abolition and the entire concept of banishing the carceral state, meaning, creating a society focused on reconciliation and restorative justice instead of punishment, pain, and suffering — a system that sees people in crisis as humans, not monsters. People who want to abolish the police typically also want to abolish prisons, and the same questions get asked: “What about the bad guys? Where do we put them?” I bring this up because abolitionists don’t want to simply replace cops with armed social workers or prisons with casual detention centers full of puffy leather couches and Playstations. We imagine a world not divided into good guys and bad guys, but rather a world where people’s needs are met and those in crisis receive care, not dehumanization.

Here’s legendary activist and thinker Angela Y. Davis putting it better than I ever could:

“An abolitionist approach that seeks to answer questions such as these would require us to imagine a constellation of alternative strategies and institutions, with the ultimate aim of removing the prison from the social and ideological landscapes of our society. In other words, we would not be looking for prisonlike substitutes for the prison, such as house arrest safeguarded by electronic surveillance bracelets. Rather, positing decarceration as our overarching strategy, we would try to envision a continuum of alternatives to imprisonment-demilitarization of schools, revitalization of education at all levels, a health system that provides free physical and mental care to all, and a justice system based on reparation and reconciliation rather than retribution and vengeance.”
(Are Prisons Obsolete, pg. 107)

I’m not telling you I have the blueprint for a beautiful new world. What I’m telling you is that the system we have right now is broken beyond repair and that it’s time to consider new ways of doing community together. Those new ways need to be negotiated by members of those communities, particularly Black, indigenous, disabled, houseless, and citizens of color historically shoved into the margins of society. Instead of letting Fox News fill your head with nightmares about Hispanic gangs, ask the Hispanic community what they need to thrive. Instead of letting racist politicians scaremonger about pro-Black demonstrators, ask the Black community what they need to meet the needs of the most vulnerable. If you truly desire safety, ask not what your most vulnerable can do for the community, ask what the community can do for the most vulnerable.
 

A WORLD WITH FEWER BASTARDS IS POSSIBLE
If you take only one thing away from this essay, I hope it’s this: do not talk to cops. But if you only take two things away, I hope the second one is that it’s possible to imagine a different world where unarmed black people, indigenous people, poor people, disabled people, and people of color are not routinely gunned down by unaccountable police officers. It doesn’t have to be this way. Yes, this requires a leap of faith into community models that might feel unfamiliar, but I ask you:
When you see a man dying in the street begging for breath, don’t you want to leap away from that world?
When you see a mother or a daughter shot to death sleeping in their beds, don’t you want to leap away from that world?
When you see a twelve year old boy executed in a public park for the crime of playing with a toy, jesus ***** christ, can you really just stand there and think “This is normal”?
And to any cops who made it this far down, is this really the world you want to live in? Aren’t you tired of the trauma? Aren’t you tired of the soul sickness inherent to the badge? Aren’t you tired of looking the other way when your partners break the law? Are you really willing to kill the next George Floyd, the next Breonna Taylor, the next Tamir Rice? How confident are you that your next use of force will be something you’re proud of? I’m writing this for you too: it’s wrong what our training did to us, it’s wrong that they hardened our hearts to our communities, and it’s wrong to pretend this is normal.
Look, I wouldn’t have been able to hear any of this for much of my life. You reading this now may not be able to hear this yet either. But do me this one favor: just think about it. Just turn it over in your mind for a couple minutes. “Yes, And” me for a minute. Look around you and think about the kind of world you want to live in. Is it one where an all-powerful stranger with a gun keeps you and your neighbors in line with the fear of death, or can you picture a world where, as a community, we embrace our most vulnerable, meet their needs, heal their wounds, honor their dignity, and make them family instead of desperate outsiders?
If you take only three things away from this essay, I hope the third is this: you and your community don’t need bastards to thrive.
 

 

 

As to the Wendy's. If you have not seen this entire clip, please take 5 minutes to listen and consider this answer to that question.

 

 

[North Buffalo]

Gotta agree All Pro, and driving drunk is a serious offense... should he have been shot no and better training of police could have avoided this mess... get a few more guys there... drunks are unpredictable... seen a few too many do stupid things in my ER... that being said does he really need to be shot?   

[Putin]

22 hours ago, dickleyjones said:

McDermott must kneel. He's all about "all for one and one for all". How can he demand the loyalty of his players if he does not show them he has their backs?

 

Get ready whoever is offended by knees, you are gonna be offended. Hope you can survive.

No McDermott doesn’t have to kneel , he needs to support the players who choose to kneel and ALSO the ones who choose to stand ?? 

[SoTier]

19 hours ago, Putin said:

I’m just trying to make a point that many of us don’t have the right to protest or do anything but our jobs while we are on the company’s time , 

 

So, what?   Nobody is demanding that you protest at work.

 

19 hours ago, Bangarang said:

 

They almost have to kneel out of necessity at this point at the risk of a character assassination by the angry mob. We are seeing people lose their livelihoods over this. The cancel culture is real strong right now.

 

Who are these people who are losing their livelihoods because they refuse to kneel?   Colin Kaepernick is the only person who lost his job "over this" and it was because he started "this", ie, the kneeling during the national anthem.

 

17 hours ago, BillsFan17 said:

So, in turn one has more privilege than the other?

So, again, what am I refusing to see?

 

That this is 2020 not 2016, and 3 black men have been killed by police in May and June: Maurice Gordon on May 23 in a traffic stop on the New Jersey Turnpike, George Floyd on May 25 in Minneapolis, and Rayshard Brooks on June 13 in Atlanta, all three incidents captured on body cam/cell phone video.

 

 

[dickleyjones]

13 minutes ago, Putin said:

No McDermott doesn’t have to kneel , he needs to support the players who choose to kneel and ALSO the ones who choose to stand ?? 

 

seems mighty tricky to support both at once. he asks his players to buy in to the process, now it is his turn to show solidarity.

 

not sure why he has to stand for you? he doesn't ask you to give you his all, or buy into his team philosophies...in fact i don't think he asks you for much of anything. Certainly not the same as what he asks of his players.

[Putin]

2 minutes ago, dickleyjones said:

 

seems mighty tricky to support both at once. he asks his players to buy in to the process, now it is his turn to show solidarity.

 

not sure why he has to stand for you? he doesn't ask you to give you his all, or buy into his team philosophies...in fact i don't think he asks you for much of anything. Certainly not the same as what he asks of his players.

???? It’s a little early for alcohol in my opinion 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Putin

[dickleyjones]

2 minutes ago, Putin said:

???? It’s a little early for alcohol in my opinion 

a revealing "response".

[4merper4mer]

6 minutes ago, dickleyjones said:

 

seems mighty tricky to support both at once. he asks his players to buy in to the process, now it is his turn to show solidarity.

 

not sure why he has to stand for you? he doesn't ask you to give you his all, or buy into his team philosophies...in fact i don't think he asks you for much of anything. Certainly not the same as what he asks of his players.

Maybe he could levitate like David Blaine with one knee bent and the other leg straight.  Everyone happy?

[SoTier]

6 hours ago, leonbus23 said:

Is it still a protest if everybody kneels? 

It seems that if real American hero Watt kneels, it kind of deflates the whole thing. 

Because, while categorically Watt and the like may be against police brutality, I don't think they're for any real systemic change. 

 

 

Why do you think this?  Because they're white?  Because they've changed their minds about the topic?

 

It seems to me that there's been a sudden sea change in how people look at the issues of systemic racism and excessive use of force by law enforcement because of the George Floyd murder.  Many white people who never really thought about racism or police brutality have jolted to awareness -- and many to action -- by watching that video.

 

 

 

[BillsFan17]

32 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

So, what?   Nobody is demanding that you protest at work.

 

 

Who are these people who are losing their livelihoods because they refuse to kneel?   Colin Kaepernick is the only person who lost his job "over this" and it was because he started "this", ie, the kneeling during the national anthem.

 

 

That this is 2020 not 2016, and 3 black men have been killed by police in May and June: Maurice Gordon on May 23 in a traffic stop on the New Jersey Turnpike, George Floyd on May 25 in Minneapolis, and Rayshard Brooks on June 13 in Atlanta, all three incidents captured on body cam/cell phone video.

 

 

How am I refusing to see that? Or are you just trying to grandstand and are using my post to do so... because there is literally no way to draw that conclusion from my post...